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TomLancaster
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Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:52 pm

Hi, I've been trying to find out about the capacity (number of passengers or number of passengers and crew) of passenger planes in 1967.
In particular I'd like to know the largest number of passengers a commercial plane could have carried in 1967.
On the following wikipedia page I've found it said "DC-8-61 was stretched by 36 ft (11 m) for 180–220 seats in mixed-class" The plane entered service in Feb 1967: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-8
This seems to hint that the maximum capacity was 220.
Does anyone know of anything bigger at the time or any reason to doubt the figures given in wikipedia.
Thanks in advnance for your help.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited spelling in title
 
factsonly
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 pm

KLM had up to 244 all-economy seating in some of its 11x DC8-63.

The first aircraft PH-DEA was delivered in November 1967, but operated initially with F-class.

 
BAINY3
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:56 pm

It seems the DC-8-61 had a maximum capacity (in high-density, all-economy configuration) of 259. I'm not sure if anyone actually operated it that densely in 1967, but none of the competing planes had capacities that high in 1967.

By comparison, the 707-320C had an exit limit of 219, and the Tupolev Tu-114 had a maximum of 224.
 
ricpeterson
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:59 pm

The DC-8-63 missed your target by a few months (1968) but I flew it in 1983 for Arrow Air and we configured it for 255 passengers. Doesn't quite apply to your 1967 question just FYI...
 
Gyrfalcon
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:04 pm

The exit limit on the DC-8-61 was actually 269. Ref https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... v%2041.pdf
Like others, I'm not actually sure anyone ever operated that densely however.
The only others that would be close are the Tu-114 and IL-62.
 
Prost
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:44 pm

I look at the DC-8 and the amount of exits it had, it kind of cracks me up. By modern standards it just looks like they added exits all over the place, and they were different types. And yet...I think that plane is kind of cool because of it’s quirks.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:14 am

For the reference, in 1967 an Il-62 would be configured for 186 passengers in Aeroflot service. The Soviet lore was that it remained world's largest passenger type, until 747. (I never cross-checked; and it looks like it was indeed superseded by stretched DC-8, before 747 came along). FWIW.
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TomLancaster
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:48 pm

Thanks, everyone for your quick responses. That's really helpful.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:32 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
For the reference, in 1967 an Il-62 would be configured for 186 passengers in Aeroflot service. The Soviet lore was that it remained world's largest passenger type, until 747. (I never cross-checked; and it looks like it was indeed superseded by stretched DC-8, before 747 came along). FWIW.

I guess it depends on the precise definition of largest.

I absolutely love the DC-8-61 & -63, and confess I was somewhat surprised by how close the Il-62 comes in so many dimensions.

For instance it easily beats both the original DC-8 and the stretched DC-8-62 in terms of length and wingspan. Indeed of all the early jet types it comes closest to the Super DC-8s, leaving all the others behind by quite a margin.

OEW; the Il-62 is heavier than everything up to and including the DC-8-61. But maybe because it is constructed out of recycled T-34 tanks? :duck:

MTOW; the Il-62 beats the lot. :o

Fuel capacity; another clear winner. And following on from that, much greater range.

And four engines with considerably more power.

So, not quite the longest, and not quite the widest, but it pushed hard, and came out #1 in other key areas.

All except for passenger numbers; and that is something of a mystery. I guess the cabin dimensions were somewhat smaller than the DC-8-61/-63, combined with the need to allocate extra space for five cockpit crew, and sometimes a cloakroom for hats and fur-coats (I jest not!)

But it was most certainly a contender. :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
N766UA
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:42 pm

Prost wrote:
I look at the DC-8 and the amount of exits it had, it kind of cracks me up. By modern standards it just looks like they added exits all over the place, and they were different types. And yet...I think that plane is kind of cool because of it’s quirks.


Reminds me of the A321. I don’t think any of the doors are alike on any given side of the jet.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:17 pm

It wasn't in '67 but that gives you a perspective on how it was perceived, Flying Tiger had DC-8-63CFs with additional titles reading "Jumbo Jet", before the 747 had its first flight: http://www.400scalehangar.net/todd/Mode ... 778FTd.jpg
 
BravoOne
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:03 pm

FTL, TIA, SWA, Capitol, and World all few the DC8's in MAC configurations. Not sure the time periods were in the 1967 era though. I was flying the 707-321C in and out of Vietnam, but my memory is slipping regarding regarding who else was on the ramps during that period.
You can bet that it was not the traditional coach seating.
 
SFOThinker
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:49 pm

BravoOne wrote:
FTL, TIA, SWA, Capitol, and World all few the DC8's in MAC configurations. Not sure the time periods were in the 1967 era though. I was flying the 707-321C in and out of Vietnam, but my memory is slipping regarding regarding who else was on the ramps during that period.
You can bet that it was not the traditional coach seating.

Please tell us how MAC configurations were different. Thanks.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:12 am

Military Airlift Command, (MAC) were typically all coach, high density seating. I don't recall the pax load capacity but I assume that it was at or near certified max, regardless of it being a DC8 or 707. These aircraft were dedicated to moving personnel in and out of Vietnam, usually for R&R flights to Australia, HNL and west coast USAF bases like Travis, McChord, & March. The 707 typically had 2 heads forward and 3 aft. Don't have a clue about pitch other than it was minimal.

Don't think I ever heard anyone complain as they were just happy to being out of there.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:15 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
For the reference, in 1967 an Il-62 would be configured for 186 passengers in Aeroflot service. The Soviet lore was that it remained world's largest passenger type, until 747. (I never cross-checked; and it looks like it was indeed superseded by stretched DC-8, before 747 came along). FWIW.

I guess it depends on the precise definition of largest.

I absolutely love the DC-8-61 & -63, and confess I was somewhat surprised by how close the Il-62 comes in so many dimensions.

For instance it easily beats both the original DC-8 and the stretched DC-8-62 in terms of length and wingspan. Indeed of all the early jet types it comes closest to the Super DC-8s, leaving all the others behind by quite a margin.

OEW; the Il-62 is heavier than everything up to and including the DC-8-61. But maybe because it is constructed out of recycled T-34 tanks? :duck:

MTOW; the Il-62 beats the lot. :o

Fuel capacity; another clear winner. And following on from that, much greater range.

And four engines with considerably more power.

So, not quite the longest, and not quite the widest, but it pushed hard, and came out #1 in other key areas.

All except for passenger numbers; and that is something of a mystery. I guess the cabin dimensions were somewhat smaller than the DC-8-61/-63, combined with the need to allocate extra space for five cockpit crew, and sometimes a cloakroom for hats and fur-coats (I jest not!)

But it was most certainly a contender. :D

I thought it would be good to compare some details. Here's what I can find from https://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data

IL-62
Length: 53.12m (174ft 4in)
Span: 43.20m (141ft 9in)
Wing area: 279.6m2 (3009sq ft)
MTOW: 162,200kg (375,150lb) (IL-62M: 165,500kg (363,760lb))
OEW: 69,400kg (153,000lb) (IL-62M: 71,500kg (157,360lb))
Engines: Four 103.0kN (23,150lbf) Kuznetsov NK84 turbofans (IL-62M: Four 107.9kN (24,250lbf) Soloviev D30KU turbofans)

DC-8-60
Length: -61/-63: 57.12m (187ft 5in), -62: 47.98m (157ft 5in)
Span: -61: 43.41m (142ft 5in), -62/-63: 45.23m (148ft 5in)
Wing area: -61: 267.9m2 (2884sq ft), -62/-63: 271.9m2 (2927sq ft)
MTOW: -61: 147,415kg (325,000lb), -62: 151,950kg (335,000lb), -63: 158,760kg (350,000lb)
OEW: -61: 67,538kg (148,897lb), -62: 64,366kg (141,903lb), -63: 69,739kg (153,749lb)
Engines: -61/-62: Four 80.1kN (18,000lbf) Pratt & Whitney JT3D-3B turbofans, -63: Four 84.5kN (19,000lbf) JT3D-7s.

707-320B
Length: 46.61m (152ft 11in)
Span: 44.42m (145ft 9in)
Wing area: 283m2 (3050sq ft)
MTOW: 151,315kg (333,600lb)
OEW: 66,406kg (146,400lb)
Engines: Four 80kN (18,000lbf) JT3D-3s or four 84.4kN (19,000lbf) JT3D-7s

Super VC-10
Length: 52.32m (171ft 8in)
Span: 44.55m (146ft 2in)
Wing area: 272.4m2 (2,932sq ft)
MTOW: 151,956 kg (335,000lb)
OEW: 71,137 kg (156,828lb)
Engines: Four 100.1 kN (22,500 lbf) thrust Rolls-Royce Conway 550 turbofans

Tu-114
Data from Wikipedia - Airliners.net doesn't have the Tu-114
Length: 54.1 m (177 ft 6 in)
Span: 51.1 m (167 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 311.1m2 (3,349 sq ft)
MTOW: 171,000 kg (376,990 lb)
OEW: 91,000 kg (200,621 lb)
Engines: Four Kuznetsov NK-12MV turboprop engines, 11,033 kW (14,795 hp)

And for reference here are the first three widebodies:

Boeing 747-100
Length: 70.66m (231ft 10in)
Span: 59.64m (195ft 8in)
Wing area: Wing area 511m2 (5500sq ft)
MTOW: 340,195kg (750,000lb)
OEW: 162,386kg (358,000lb)
Engines: Four 208.9kN (46,950lbf) Pratt & Whitney JT9D7A turbofans

Lockheed L-1011 Tristar 1
Length: 54.17m (177ft 8in)
Span: 47.34m (155ft 4in)
Wing area: 320.0m2 (3456.0sq ft)
MTOW: 195,045kg (430,000lb)
OEW: 109,045kg (240,400lb)
Engines: Three 187kN (42,000lbf) Rolls-Royce RB211-22B turbofans

McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10
Data from Wikipedia - Airliners.net only has the -30 and -40
Length: 55.55m (182ft 3in)
Span: 47.35m (155ft 4in)
Wing area: 330m2 (3550sq ft)
MTOW: 195,045kg (430,000lb)
OEW: 108,940kg (240,171lb)
Engines: Three 177.92kN (40,000lbf) General Electric CF6-6D turbofans

The surprising winner of the greatest wingspan and area, longest (except for the DC-8-61/-63), and heaviest award is the Tu-114! In fact the Tu-114 is closer in dimensions and weights to the L-1011 and DC-10 than to the 707, DC-8, IL-62 and VC-10!

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Ziyulu
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:35 am

That seemed like a really big jump to go from single aisle to wide body double-decker 747. Were there other planes at that time that were close to today's 777 or 787 capacity levels?
 
Newark727
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:37 am

Ziyulu wrote:
That seemed like a really big jump to go from single aisle to wide body double-decker 747. Were there other planes at that time that were close to today's 777 or 787 capacity levels?


Not really. That was part of the impetus for the creation of the 747SP and, later, the 767. There were a lot of paper projects in that space though, one of which eventually emerged as the Airbus A300.
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:41 am

I do remember being puzzled at the time as to the claim that the DC-8-61 was longer than the 63 and could carry a few more pax. Is that correct?
BTW, I was living in Venezuela at the time they came out and Viasa widely advertised the stretch 8s as the "Super Coloso" (Super Colossus).
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Dominion301
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:52 am

Wow I never realized that the DC-8-61/63 had a longer fuselage length than either the DC-10 or L-1011.
 
BAeRJ100
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:27 am

ClipperYankee wrote:
I do remember being puzzled at the time as to the claim that the DC-8-61 was longer than the 63 and could carry a few more pax. Is that correct?
BTW, I was living in Venezuela at the time they came out and Viasa widely advertised the stretch 8s as the "Super Coloso" (Super Colossus).


The -61 and -63 were the same length, with the same maximum pax capacity.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:03 am

Ziyulu wrote:
That seemed like a really big jump to go from single aisle to wide body double-decker 747. Were there other planes at that time that were close to today's 777 or 787 capacity levels?
Yes (to part 1) it was a huge jump, and no (to part 2).

The 747 was a real game changer, but it was also an entirely logical progression that was being looked at by all manufacturers. The "shock and awe" was caused because it was such a big leap for it's day, whereas the later A300 was more of a modest step-up.

The nearest thing to a wide-body before that must have been one of these... except the second photo shows it wasn't exactly "wide" :lol:

Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:40 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I absolutely love the DC-8-61 & -63, and confess I was somewhat surprised by how close the Il-62 comes in so many dimensions.
For instance it easily beats both the original DC-8 and the stretched DC-8-62 in terms of length and wingspan. Indeed of all the early jet types it comes closest to the Super DC-8s, leaving all the others behind by quite a margin.
OEW....
MTOW...
Fuel...Range... Engines

So, not quite the longest, and not quite the widest, but it pushed hard, and came out #1 in other key areas.

I thought it would be good to compare some details. Here's what I can find from https://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data....


Excellent stuff, and thanks for correcting my omission - I totally forgot the Super VC-10 (Super? It was bluddy amazing :lol: )

In rank order, just taking length as the main consideration, we seem to have (shortest first);

Convair 990A ; Length: 42.60m (139 ft 9 in) :o
707-320B; Length: 46.61m (152ft 11in)
Slightly longer, but same ballpark are the original DC-8 versions and the standard VC-10

Here come the main pack, each fractionally longer than the next
Super VC-10; Length: 52.32m (171ft 8in)
IL-62; Length: 53.12m (174ft 4in)
Tu-114; Length: 54.1 m (177 ft 6 in)
Lockheed L-1011 Tristar 1; Length: 54.17m (177ft 8in)
McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10; Length: 55.55m (182ft 3in)
and leading them all, by a couple of seat rows....
DC-8-60; Length: -61/-63: 57.12m (187ft 5in)

And the daddy.
Boeing 747-100; Length: 70.66m (231ft 10in)

But here's another oddness; the L-100 Tristar 500, with the heaviest MTOW, widest wingspan, and longest range (of any L-1011), but the shortest body.
Indeed, shorter than all of the main contenders listed above, even the Super VC-10. :o

Lockheed L-1011 Tristar 500; Length:50.05m (164 ft 2½ in)
[as operated by Delta, AC, TAP, Alia, LTU, Saudia, BA and Pan Am]



But, as Virgin Flyer says;
The surprising winner of the greatest wingspan and area, longest (except for the DC-8-61/-63), and heaviest award is the Tu-114!
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:05 pm

Tom, thanks for opening that fun thread in those bleak times! It also reminds me that in my childhood, recognizing an airplane was much easier than pointing at the exact engine and weight variant…
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Polot
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:06 pm

If you are talking about passenger size (capacity) and length it might be more helpful to compare cabin lengths, especially as you are comparing wing mounted engine aircraft with fuselage mounted engine aircraft. The Super VC-10, for example, is overall longer than the 707-320, but a big reason for that is the fuselage mounted engines and swept back tail/horizontal stabilizers (remember, the rear end of the length measurement may not be the tip of the tail cone!). The Super VC-10’s cabin is actually slightly shorter than the 707-320’s. The standard VC-10, despite being longer than the 707-320B, had capacities similar to the base 707-120.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:08 pm

Question: I think I read once that the difference between the -61 and the -63 was that the first could be used in high density domestic or medium-haul routes whereas the -63 was used in long-haul ones. Is that correct? Can you shed some light please?
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Polot
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:12 pm

GZM1 wrote:
Question: I think I read once that the difference between the -61 and the -63 was that the first could be used in high density domestic or medium-haul routes whereas the -63 was used in long-haul ones. Is that correct? Can you shed some light please?

Yes. The 61 and 63 are the same size but the the -63 has a larger wing, fuel capacity, and MTOW. -63 wing was taken from the early -62. Think of the -63 as kind of a ER version of the -61.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:15 pm

GZM1 wrote:
Question: I think I read once that the difference between the -61 and the -63 was that the first could be used in high density domestic or medium-haul routes whereas the -63 was used in long-haul ones. Is that correct? Can you shed some light please?

The -63 definitely has longer range than the -61, but Air Canada, for example, flew both across the Atlantic.

Remember the MTOW of the -61 was about the same as the -55.
 
BAINY3
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:36 pm

Although, bear in mind if we are still focusing specifically on 1967, the DC-8-63 is irrelevant because it did not have EIS until 1968. The -61 came out one year earlier, so for 1967 the -61 is in the picture but the -63 is not.
 
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:44 pm

DC-8-61s were used a lot across the Atlantic with carriers such as TIA, Capitol, Air Canada and Nordair. With their relatively short legs, tech-stops at Shannon or Gander were quite common but were accepted as normal, especially for charter operations.
 
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:53 am

iRISH251 wrote:
DC-8-61s were used a lot across the Atlantic with carriers such as TIA, Capitol, Air Canada and Nordair. With their relatively short legs, tech-stops at Shannon or Gander were quite common but were accepted as normal, especially for charter operations.


In January 1980, I flew on an Air Canada DC-8-61 nonstop from YYZ to ZRH. It must have been about the range limit for a -61! Granted, the load was only about 40%.

But that brings another question ...... other than Air Canada and Capitol, did any other airline fly both the -61 and -63? I acknowledge a few flew the -61 and -62 or the -62 and -63, but how about the -61 and -63?
 
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:00 am

BravoOne wrote:
Military Airlift Command, (MAC) were typically all coach, high density seating. I don't recall the pax load capacity but I assume that it was at or near certified max, regardless of it being a DC8 or 707. These aircraft were dedicated to moving personnel in and out of Vietnam, usually for R&R flights to Australia, HNL and west coast USAF bases like Travis, McChord, & March. The 707 typically had 2 heads forward and 3 aft. Don't have a clue about pitch other than it was minimal.

Don't think I ever heard anyone complain as they were just happy to being out of there.


The Arrow Air DC 8-63 MAC flight that went down in Newfoundland took 256 lives.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:43 am

Out of interest, why did the DC-6X have so many exits and so many different types of exit?
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:25 am

CrewBunk wrote:
iRISH251 wrote:
DC-8-61s were used a lot across the Atlantic with carriers such as TIA, Capitol, Air Canada and Nordair. With their relatively short legs, tech-stops at Shannon or Gander were quite common but were accepted as normal, especially for charter operations.


In January 1980, I flew on an Air Canada DC-8-61 nonstop from YYZ to ZRH. It must have been about the range limit for a -61! Granted, the load was only about 40%.

But that brings another question ...... other than Air Canada and Capitol, did any other airline fly both the -61 and -63? I acknowledge a few flew the -61 and -62 or the -62 and -63, but how about the -61 and -63?

Eastern Airlines had -61s and -63PF's (in passenger service) but already replaced them by 1974. Trans International (the first one which became Transamerica) had both. I wanted to say JAL-Japan Airlines but I just found out they never had -63s, would swear they had them.
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:43 am

One airplane missing here is the CL-44J (the stretch) operated by Loftleidir Icelandic. Plying the North-Atlantic with 189 seats from about 1965-1971.
 
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747classic
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:17 am

BAINY3 wrote:
Although, bear in mind if we are still focusing specifically on 1967, the DC-8-63 is irrelevant because it did not have EIS until 1968. The -61 came out one year earlier, so for 1967 the -61 is in the picture but the -63 is not.


Never rely on wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-8

Wrongly stated EIS for the DC8-63 : June 1968.

However :

L/N 293, PH-DEB was the first DC8-63 in airline service, delivered to KLM at July 15th 1967.
The first assembled DC8-63 was L/N 286, PH-DEA, this aircraft was used for flight testing and delivered to KLM at November 8th 1967.

For the DC8-61 :

L/N 284, N8073U was the first DC8-61 in airline service, delivered to United at Jan 26th 1967
The first assembled DC8-61 was L/N 262, N8071U, this aircraft was also used for flight testing and delivered to United at August 15th 1967.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
workhorse
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:22 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
the Il-62 is heavier than everything up to and including the DC-8-61. But maybe because it is constructed out of recycled T-34 tanks? :duck:


Mainly because of the T-Tail and tail-mounted 4 engines configuration. It makes it one of the best looking airliners in history but unfortunately it also makes it very inefficient (and somewhat less safe).
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:41 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
iRISH251 wrote:
DC-8-61s were used a lot across the Atlantic with carriers such as TIA, Capitol, Air Canada and Nordair. With their relatively short legs, tech-stops at Shannon or Gander were quite common but were accepted as normal, especially for charter operations.


In January 1980, I flew on an Air Canada DC-8-61 nonstop from YYZ to ZRH. It must have been about the range limit for a -61! Granted, the load was only about 40%.

But that brings another question ...... other than Air Canada and Capitol, did any other airline fly both the -61 and -63? I acknowledge a few flew the -61 and -62 or the -62 and -63, but how about the -61 and -63?

Eastern Airlines had -61s and -63PF's (in passenger service) but already replaced them by 1974. Trans International (the first one which became Transamerica) had both. I wanted to say JAL-Japan Airlines but I just found out they never had -63s, would swear they had them.


Good catch. I had forgotten about Eastern’s short use of the -63. TIA I didn’t know, even though they often visited my home airport, YYZ. Cheers.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:51 pm

workhorse wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
the Il-62 is heavier than everything up to and including the DC-8-61. But maybe because it is constructed out of recycled T-34 tanks? :duck:


Mainly because of the T-Tail and tail-mounted 4 engines configuration. It makes it one of the best looking airliners in history but unfortunately it also makes it very inefficient (and somewhat less safe).

That gives rise to the old adage that if you give several separate engineers a task, the outcome will look similar. Case in point, the task of a large transport that can take off from shorter, lesser prepared fields and fly long distances, gave us the VC-10 and the IL-62 .... two of the most handsome aircraft built and very similar looking.

Odd though, the rear engine arrangement was the cause of a couple IL-62 crashes, it was never a problem on the VC-10.
 
reltney
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:01 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
For the reference, in 1967 an Il-62 would be configured for 186 passengers in Aeroflot service. The Soviet lore was that it remained world's largest passenger type, until 747. (I never cross-checked; and it looks like it was indeed superseded by stretched DC-8, before 747 came along). FWIW.

I guess it depends on the precise definition of largest.

I absolutely love the DC-8-61 & -63, and confess I was somewhat surprised by how close the Il-62 comes in so many dimensions.

For instance it easily beats both the original DC-8 and the stretched DC-8-62 in terms of length and wingspan. Indeed of all the early jet types it comes closest to the Super DC-8s, leaving all the others behind by quite a margin.

OEW; the Il-62 is heavier than everything up to and including the DC-8-61. But maybe because it is constructed out of recycled T-34 tanks? :duck:

MTOW; the Il-62 beats the lot. :o

Fuel capacity; another clear winner. And following on from that, much greater range.

And four engines with considerably more power.

So, not quite the longest, and not quite the widest, but it pushed hard, and came out #1 in other key areas.

All except for passenger numbers; and that is something of a mystery. I guess the cabin dimensions were somewhat smaller than the DC-8-61/-63, combined with the need to allocate extra space for five cockpit crew, and sometimes a cloakroom for hats and fur-coats (I jest not!)

But it was most certainly a contender. :D

I thought it would be good to compare some details. Here's what I can find from https://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data

IL-62
Length: 53.12m (174ft 4in)
Span: 43.20m (141ft 9in)
Wing area: 279.6m2 (3009sq ft)
MTOW: 162,200kg (375,150lb) (IL-62M: 165,500kg (363,760lb))
OEW: 69,400kg (153,000lb) (IL-62M: 71,500kg (157,360lb))
Engines: Four 103.0kN (23,150lbf) Kuznetsov NK84 turbofans (IL-62M: Four 107.9kN (24,250lbf) Soloviev D30KU turbofans)

DC-8-60
Length: -61/-63: 57.12m (187ft 5in), -62: 47.98m (157ft 5in)
Span: -61: 43.41m (142ft 5in), -62/-63: 45.23m (148ft 5in)
Wing area: -61: 267.9m2 (2884sq ft), -62/-63: 271.9m2 (2927sq ft)
MTOW: -61: 147,415kg (325,000lb), -62: 151,950kg (335,000lb), -63: 158,760kg (350,000lb)
OEW: -61: 67,538kg (148,897lb), -62: 64,366kg (141,903lb), -63: 69,739kg (153,749lb)
Engines: -61/-62: Four 80.1kN (18,000lbf) Pratt & Whitney JT3D-3B turbofans, -63: Four 84.5kN (19,000lbf) JT3D-7s.

707-320B
Length: 46.61m (152ft 11in)
Span: 44.42m (145ft 9in)
Wing area: 283m2 (3050sq ft)
MTOW: 151,315kg (333,600lb)
OEW: 66,406kg (146,400lb)
Engines: Four 80kN (18,000lbf) JT3D-3s or four 84.4kN (19,000lbf) JT3D-7s

Super VC-10
Length: 52.32m (171ft 8in)
Span: 44.55m (146ft 2in)
Wing area: 272.4m2 (2,932sq ft)
MTOW: 151,956 kg (335,000lb)
OEW: 71,137 kg (156,828lb)
Engines: Four 100.1 kN (22,500 lbf) thrust Rolls-Royce Conway 550 turbofans

Tu-114
Data from Wikipedia - Airliners.net doesn't have the Tu-114
Length: 54.1 m (177 ft 6 in)
Span: 51.1 m (167 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 311.1m2 (3,349 sq ft)
MTOW: 171,000 kg (376,990 lb)
OEW: 91,000 kg (200,621 lb)
Engines: Four Kuznetsov NK-12MV turboprop engines, 11,033 kW (14,795 hp)

And for reference here are the first three widebodies:

Boeing 747-100
Length: 70.66m (231ft 10in)
Span: 59.64m (195ft 8in)
Wing area: Wing area 511m2 (5500sq ft)
MTOW: 340,195kg (750,000lb)
OEW: 162,386kg (358,000lb)
Engines: Four 208.9kN (46,950lbf) Pratt & Whitney JT9D7A turbofans

Lockheed L-1011 Tristar 1
Length: 54.17m (177ft 8in)
Span: 47.34m (155ft 4in)
Wing area: 320.0m2 (3456.0sq ft)
MTOW: 195,045kg (430,000lb)
OEW: 109,045kg (240,400lb)
Engines: Three 187kN (42,000lbf) Rolls-Royce RB211-22B turbofans

McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10
Data from Wikipedia - Airliners.net only has the -30 and -40
Length: 55.55m (182ft 3in)
Span: 47.35m (155ft 4in)
Wing area: 330m2 (3550sq ft)
MTOW: 195,045kg (430,000lb)
OEW: 108,940kg (240,171lb)
Engines: Three 177.92kN (40,000lbf) General Electric CF6-6D turbofans

The surprising winner of the greatest wingspan and area, longest (except for the DC-8-61/-63), and heaviest award is the Tu-114! In fact the Tu-114 is closer in dimensions and weights to the L-1011 and DC-10 than to the 707, DC-8, IL-62 and VC-10!




WRONG. WRONG.......the DC-8 61-63 was 187ft. It was bigger than all but the 747.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
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klm617
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:19 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
For the reference, in 1967 an Il-62 would be configured for 186 passengers in Aeroflot service. The Soviet lore was that it remained world's largest passenger type, until 747. (I never cross-checked; and it looks like it was indeed superseded by stretched DC-8, before 747 came along). FWIW.

I guess it depends on the precise definition of largest.

I absolutely love the DC-8-61 & -63, and confess I was somewhat surprised by how close the Il-62 comes in so many dimensions.

For instance it easily beats both the original DC-8 and the stretched DC-8-62 in terms of length and wingspan. Indeed of all the early jet types it comes closest to the Super DC-8s, leaving all the others behind by quite a margin.

OEW; the Il-62 is heavier than everything up to and including the DC-8-61. But maybe because it is constructed out of recycled T-34 tanks? :duck:

MTOW; the Il-62 beats the lot. :o

Fuel capacity; another clear winner. And following on from that, much greater range.

And four engines with considerably more power.

So, not quite the longest, and not quite the widest, but it pushed hard, and came out #1 in other key areas.

All except for passenger numbers; and that is something of a mystery. I guess the cabin dimensions were somewhat smaller than the DC-8-61/-63, combined with the need to allocate extra space for five cockpit crew, and sometimes a cloakroom for hats and fur-coats (I jest not!)

But it was most certainly a contender. :D

I thought it would be good to compare some details. Here's what I can find from https://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data

IL-62
Length: 53.12m (174ft 4in)
Span: 43.20m (141ft 9in)
Wing area: 279.6m2 (3009sq ft)
MTOW: 162,200kg (375,150lb) (IL-62M: 165,500kg (363,760lb))
OEW: 69,400kg (153,000lb) (IL-62M: 71,500kg (157,360lb))
Engines: Four 103.0kN (23,150lbf) Kuznetsov NK84 turbofans (IL-62M: Four 107.9kN (24,250lbf) Soloviev D30KU turbofans)

DC-8-60
Length: -61/-63: 57.12m (187ft 5in), -62: 47.98m (157ft 5in)
Span: -61: 43.41m (142ft 5in), -62/-63: 45.23m (148ft 5in)
Wing area: -61: 267.9m2 (2884sq ft), -62/-63: 271.9m2 (2927sq ft)
MTOW: -61: 147,415kg (325,000lb), -62: 151,950kg (335,000lb), -63: 158,760kg (350,000lb)
OEW: -61: 67,538kg (148,897lb), -62: 64,366kg (141,903lb), -63: 69,739kg (153,749lb)
Engines: -61/-62: Four 80.1kN (18,000lbf) Pratt & Whitney JT3D-3B turbofans, -63: Four 84.5kN (19,000lbf) JT3D-7s.

707-320B
Length: 46.61m (152ft 11in)
Span: 44.42m (145ft 9in)
Wing area: 283m2 (3050sq ft)
MTOW: 151,315kg (333,600lb)
OEW: 66,406kg (146,400lb)
Engines: Four 80kN (18,000lbf) JT3D-3s or four 84.4kN (19,000lbf) JT3D-7s

Super VC-10
Length: 52.32m (171ft 8in)
Span: 44.55m (146ft 2in)
Wing area: 272.4m2 (2,932sq ft)
MTOW: 151,956 kg (335,000lb)
OEW: 71,137 kg (156,828lb)
Engines: Four 100.1 kN (22,500 lbf) thrust Rolls-Royce Conway 550 turbofans

Tu-114
Data from Wikipedia - Airliners.net doesn't have the Tu-114
Length: 54.1 m (177 ft 6 in)
Span: 51.1 m (167 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 311.1m2 (3,349 sq ft)
MTOW: 171,000 kg (376,990 lb)
OEW: 91,000 kg (200,621 lb)
Engines: Four Kuznetsov NK-12MV turboprop engines, 11,033 kW (14,795 hp)

And for reference here are the first three widebodies:

Boeing 747-100
Length: 70.66m (231ft 10in)
Span: 59.64m (195ft 8in)
Wing area: Wing area 511m2 (5500sq ft)
MTOW: 340,195kg (750,000lb)
OEW: 162,386kg (358,000lb)
Engines: Four 208.9kN (46,950lbf) Pratt & Whitney JT9D7A turbofans

Lockheed L-1011 Tristar 1
Length: 54.17m (177ft 8in)
Span: 47.34m (155ft 4in)
Wing area: 320.0m2 (3456.0sq ft)
MTOW: 195,045kg (430,000lb)
OEW: 109,045kg (240,400lb)
Engines: Three 187kN (42,000lbf) Rolls-Royce RB211-22B turbofans

McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10
Data from Wikipedia - Airliners.net only has the -30 and -40
Length: 55.55m (182ft 3in)
Span: 47.35m (155ft 4in)
Wing area: 330m2 (3550sq ft)
MTOW: 195,045kg (430,000lb)
OEW: 108,940kg (240,171lb)
Engines: Three 177.92kN (40,000lbf) General Electric CF6-6D turbofans

The surprising winner of the greatest wingspan and area, longest (except for the DC-8-61/-63), and heaviest award is the Tu-114! In fact the Tu-114 is closer in dimensions and weights to the L-1011 and DC-10 than to the 707, DC-8, IL-62 and VC-10!



You forgot about the CL-44
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
workhorse
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:23 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Odd though, the rear engine arrangement was the cause of a couple IL-62 crashes, it was never a problem on the VC-10.


Maybe the engines were more reliable. Also, I suppose the total number of flight hours of the Il-62 fleet was bigger than the VC-10 making the probability of a fatal engine failure higher.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:52 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
blah, blah.... TU-114 {greatest wingspan and area, and heaviest}

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
blah, blah.... Il-62 {not the longest, not the widest, but...}

reltney wrote:
WRONG. WRONG.......the DC-8 61-63 was 187ft. It was bigger than all but the 747.

You are having an argument with yourself. :lol:
I suggest you go back and read the posts from both V/F and myself; in terms of length, we ALL award the prize to the DC-8-61/63. :checkmark:

But the OPs title was "largest capacity", and that prompts a discussion that goes beyond length alone.

I suggest the following;

"RIGHT, RIGHT.......the DC-8 61-63 was 187ft. It was bigger longer than all but the 747"
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:18 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Odd though, the rear engine arrangement was the cause of a couple IL-62 crashes, it was never a problem on the VC-10.

Actually it was...
On 27 November 1969, BOAC G-ASGK had a major failure of No.3 engine; debris from that engine damaged No.4 engine causing a fire. A safe overweight landing was made at Heathrow without any casualties.
An uncontained disk failure will cause havoc wherever it occurs, but in the case of the Il-62 & VC-10 it is more likely to damage an adjacent engine.

Other engine failures are mostly just the same as with wing mounted engines, except with a rear engine design, there is less worry from asymmetric thrust.

workhorse wrote:
Maybe the engines were more reliable. Also, I suppose the total number of flight hours of the Il-62 fleet was bigger than the VC-10 making the probability of a fatal engine failure higher.

Two other things counting against the Il-62 were snow, and vodka. :duck:

That, and some recognition that the two main operators of the VC-10 (BOAC and the RAF) were both known for having extremely high standards of maintenance, and some of the best pilots this side of the Millennium Falcon.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
reltney
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:29 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
blah, blah.... TU-114 {greatest wingspan and area, and heaviest}

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
blah, blah.... Il-62 {not the longest, not the widest, but...}

reltney wrote:
WRONG. WRONG.......the DC-8 61-63 was 187ft. It was bigger than all but the 747.

You are having an argument with yourself. :lol:
I suggest you go back and read the posts from both V/F and myself; in terms of length, we ALL award the prize to the DC-8-61/63. :checkmark:

But the OPs title was "largest capacity", and that prompts a discussion that goes beyond length alone.

I suggest the following;

"RIGHT, RIGHT.......the DC-8 61-63 was 187ft. It was bigger longer than all but the 747"



Yup, saw that after my stupid post. Great discussion however. It was always fun with trivia because how long the darn thing was. I never got to fly one but probably rode on them hundreds of times growing up. Loved watching the inboard engines going in reverse in the air. Sitting in the front and
looking back down the aisle during turbulence was impressive. I plane I would have loved to flown much less rode on would be the VC10. Just cool. I tried to hitch a ride in a RAF one during an exercise but it was full. I did get on queens flight VC10in the early 90s for a tour.

Anyway, the AN22 is another contender in capacity and size to be considered.

Cheers.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
superjeff
Posts: 1373
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Re: Largest capacity passenger plane in 1967

Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:15 am

CrewBunk wrote:
iRISH251 wrote:
DC-8-61s were used a lot across the Atlantic with carriers such as TIA, Capitol, Air Canada and Nordair. With their relatively short legs, tech-stops at Shannon or Gander were quite common but were accepted as normal, especially for charter operations.


In January 1980, I flew on an Air Canada DC-8-61 nonstop from YYZ to ZRH. It must have been about the range limit for a -61! Granted, the load was only about 40%.

But that brings another question ...... other than Air Canada and Capitol, did any other airline fly both the -61 and -63? I acknowledge a few flew the -61 and -62 or the -62 and -63, but how about the -61 and -63?



I think Eastern may have. They had a few DC8-61's, but I think they also got a couple of DC8-63's to use on Hawaii routes (which they never were successful at getting).
 
David_itl
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: Largest capacity passanger plane in 1967

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:44 am

BAINY3 wrote:
It seems the DC-8-61 had a maximum capacity (in high-density, all-economy configuration) of 259. I'm not sure if anyone actually operated it that densely in 1967, but none of the competing planes had capacities that high in 1967..


I've a book on MAN history ("First and Foremost") where it states on 6rth October 1967, Trans International DC8-61 N8961T did a charter from SLC via YYZ to MAN with 249 passengers and 12 crew so potentially they may have been in the ballpark for operating with the 259 max capacity.

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