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Nicknuzzii
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UPDATE: 27-year-old investor buys controlling share of El Al (was: El Al temporarily ceases ops)

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:17 pm

https://www.aviationnews-online.com/air ... n-request/

Very sad and poor decision in my opinion. Once demand recovers who will take over the Israel market?
 
SueD
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:30 pm

When push comes to shuff Netanyahu will intervene .

There is no way El-Al will be allowed to fold period stop !
 
Flaps
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:52 pm

I think that rejection is just for now. I can't see the government allowing the country to not have an indigenous carrier. It may end up in a total reorganization and or recapitalization but there will most definitely still be an Israeli national carrier when all is sad and done. If not El-Al in it's current form some derivative or perhaps a new carrier altogether.
 
ORDJOE
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:55 pm

It was my understanding that El Al wasnt doing all too good during the 2010s, while they have restructured they probably arent the best position to weather a storm like this. I do think they would prop them up or something, they would not just let it go under.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:01 pm

Rejecting LY now doesn’t mean much to me. It is probably just a tactic to show the government said no to just one carrier asking. I can see the government approving a package for all Israeli carriers, however. It would look bad if LY ended up being the favored son while others got nothing. Letting LY, with all its safety and security, go under would simply be unthinkable.
 
e38
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:43 pm

For the life of me, I don't understand all the drama that seems to be part of the A.net culture.

Nicknuzzii, with regard to the title of this thread, "El Al set to collapse."

No, that's not what the attached article implied at all. The context of the article is simply that FOR NOW, the Israeli Treasury is not approving the aid package El Al requested. That's it.

e38
 
77H
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:48 pm

e38 wrote:
For the life of me, I don't understand all the drama that seems to be part of the A.net culture.

Nicknuzzii, with regard to the title of this thread, "El Al set to collapse."

No, that's not what the attached article implied at all. The context of the article is simply that FOR NOW, the Israeli Treasury is not approving the aid package El Al requested. That's it.

e38


But but but... without the sensationalism how would the thread get it’s clicks ? :duck:

77H
 
Toinou
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:50 pm

I agree that this is not really an accurate title.

That being said, I think that something could be gained if this company had the ability to be relaid on new basis. One of which being getting rid of the shabbat flight ban. But I wonder if this could happen with the new/current israeli government which still relies on religious parties.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:52 pm

Title updated.

All airlines are struggling, this won't end soon.

Lightsaber
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e38
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:55 pm

readers: so that my statement in Reply # 6 makes sense, when I wrote the reply, the title of this thread was, "El Al set to collapse."

As noted above in Reply # 9 from lightsaber, the title has been changed.

The new title is much more indicative of the context of the attached article.

e38
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:30 pm

e38 wrote:
For the life of me, I don't understand all the drama that seems to be part of the A.net culture.

Nicknuzzii, with regard to the title of this thread, "El Al set to collapse."

No, that's not what the attached article implied at all. The context of the article is simply that FOR NOW, the Israeli Treasury is not approving the aid package El Al requested. That's it.

e38


If EL Al doesn’t get money soon they are going to collapse and in this case they didn’t get the money. I’m not so sure why you find this a hard concept to comprehend.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:32 pm

77H wrote:
e38 wrote:
For the life of me, I don't understand all the drama that seems to be part of the A.net culture.

Nicknuzzii, with regard to the title of this thread, "El Al set to collapse."

No, that's not what the attached article implied at all. The context of the article is simply that FOR NOW, the Israeli Treasury is not approving the aid package El Al requested. That's it.

e38


But but but... without the sensationalism how would the thread get it’s clicks ? :duck:

77H


As I have created many threads in the past I’m not really a better for “clicks.” If an airline doesn’t get the money it needs the odds are it may not last much longer.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:33 pm

For anyone who believes EL AL will just be a-okay:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.co ... 623826/amp
 
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chepos
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:33 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
77H wrote:
e38 wrote:
For the life of me, I don't understand all the drama that seems to be part of the A.net culture.

Nicknuzzii, with regard to the title of this thread, "El Al set to collapse."

No, that's not what the attached article implied at all. The context of the article is simply that FOR NOW, the Israeli Treasury is not approving the aid package El Al requested. That's it.

e38


But but but... without the sensationalism how would the thread get it’s clicks ? :duck:

77H


As I have created many threads in the past I’m not really a better for “clicks.” If an airline doesn’t get the money it needs the odds are it may not last much longer.

LY is not going to collapse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Nicknuzzii
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:35 pm

chepos wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
77H wrote:

But but but... without the sensationalism how would the thread get it’s clicks ? :duck:

77H


As I have created many threads in the past I’m not really a better for “clicks.” If an airline doesn’t get the money it needs the odds are it may not last much longer.

LY is not going to collapse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the inside info! Please share your source! As far as my opinion goes no one knows what is going to happen and if airlines can’t get the money they need we may have it lose some.
 
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Revelation
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Re: EL AL set to collapse

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:40 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
If EL Al doesn’t get money soon they are going to collapse and in this case they didn’t get the money. I’m not so sure why you find this a hard concept to comprehend.

Your original title said "set to collapse" which implies all avenues for recovery are closed, yet the article itself says:

In a statement to the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange, the company said: “Representatives from the Finance Ministry informed the company that for now the Treasury’s team of professionals is not approving the requested aid package.”

“The team said that it was under the authority of the political echelon to make a different decision, and in response, the company turned to the Israeli government for assistance,” the statement said.

Basically the staffers don't want to take the decision, they want the politicians to.

IMO you would have been better off just using the title from the linked article.

e38 wrote:
For the life of me, I don't understand all the drama that seems to be part of the A.net culture.

Nicknuzzii, with regard to the title of this thread, "El Al set to collapse."

No, that's not what the attached article implied at all. The context of the article is simply that FOR NOW, the Israeli Treasury is not approving the aid package El Al requested. That's it.

e38

To be fair, the "hot takez" culture extends far beyond a.net, but I do applaud you for pushing back on it.

Some times a cigar is just a cigar.
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vhtje
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:45 pm

Is the Government likely to renationalise El Al?
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OA260
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:56 pm

Cant see them collapsing . Too much of a national importance and promotes the country globally. Could be security implications too. If anything it will be renationalised.
 
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LH748
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:59 pm

EL AL is Israel
Under absolutely no circumstances will the Israeli government let its airline down. The country needs a strong flag carrier to keep the country connected and independent from any foreign airlines.
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Phosphorus
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:10 pm

vhtje wrote:
Is the Government likely to renationalise El Al?


Logically, if someone coughs up money, where literally no-one else wants to, this someone should get something considerably more than "standard interest rate", and taking over ownership is typically an option.

Here, politics begin. Israeli politics are inherently complicated, but El Al appears to be seen as somewhat of a "lifeline" to the rest of the world. Losing this "lifeline" to bankruptcy will not be taken well by some in Israeli society, while others might welcome a reboot. Isn't there a set of rules, applying uniquely to El Al, enshrined in Israeli law? If yes, expect this to be one of the subjects in the debate.
Last edited by Phosphorus on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:26 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Here, politics begin. Israeli politics are inherently complicated, but El Al appears to be seen as somewhat of a "lifeline" to the rest of the world. Losing this "lifeline" to bankruptcy will not be taken well by some in Israeli society, while others might welcome a reboot. Isn't there a set of rules, applying uniquely to El Al, enshrined in Israeli law? If yes, expect this to be one of the subjects in the debate?

I have heard some sentiment that perhaps LY is over protected and thus inefficient so maybe some would like a reboot, but of course LY has its supporters as well.

I can't picture it disappearing, that would be a truly surprising turn of events.
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strfyr51
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:46 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Is the Government likely to renationalise El Al?


Logically, if someone coughs up money, where literally no-one else wants to, this someone should get something considerably more than "standard interest rate", and taking over ownership is typically an option.

Here, politics begin. Israeli politics are inherently complicated, but El Al appears to be seen as somewhat of a "lifeline" to the rest of the world. Losing this "lifeline" to bankruptcy will not be taken well by some in Israeli society, while others might welcome a reboot. Isn't there a set of rules, applying uniquely to El Al, enshrined in Israeli law? If yes, expect this to be one of the subjects in the debate.

Were El Al allowed to fail then whomever rescues them? .
Would #1 have no restriction on their flying on the Jewish sabbath,
#2 have no right to strop them being renamed,
#3 would not be able to maintain their origin as they could move their corporate headquarters to New York if they chose to do so.
#4. Could not even stop them from being Arab owned and operated if they were the rescuers. ( that I would not see I'll bet but it could happen)
El Al has restrictions imposed BY Isreal, But if they were to allowed to go under? Then what could they actually say? Would Isreal not allow them free access?
I don't think so.. Just as I do not believe Isreal would let hem go under. I also believe that it is in Isreal's best interest to keep them s soverign Airline. or? Split them into 2 carriers with a regional, and International carrier wing. The Answer? Only the Isrealie Govt knows, Not being an isrealie or even a JEW. I cannot tell you what their motivations are other than the Aid they receive from the USA. Which I also fail to understand in it's entirety.
 
DDR
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:45 pm

This thread could have had a more accurate title. The title would not have been changed by the moderators unless it was false or sensationalist. EL AL, as others have stated, is Israel. Who else is going to put up with the stuff the Orthodox demand?
 
davescj
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:06 pm

The delay tactic might also be a way for force concessions on unions, management, etc.
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Phosphorus
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:07 pm

DDR wrote:
This thread could have had a more accurate title. The title would not have been changed by the moderators unless it was false or sensationalist. EL AL, as others have stated, is Israel. Who else is going to put up with the stuff the Orthodox demand?

It could go this way (Israeli religious parties insisting that El Al needs to be rescued, to have a Sabbath-compliant airline), or it go the other way -- secular parties demanding El Al being released from these limitations, as part of bailout. Then there was a question of El Al security apparatus -- isn't it government-mandated, but (at least partly) funded by the airline itself? There's a tangled web, and versions of untangling are not necessarily the same between different parties.
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kiowa
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:45 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:


I absolutely love that video!
 
IWMBH
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:30 pm

El-Al is vital to Israel, no doubt they will be saved. It would be political suicide to let that happen.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:56 am

I could see LY being re-nationalized in the short-term, and then being listed again. Because of security, I do not see any way in which LY is allowed to fail. That said, the biggest threat to them is probably UA, on which Israeli businesses are likely relying to get their goods to the USA (UA is maintaining UA90/1 for that reason---businesses can bring their goods to TLV, and then it's loaded onto Flight 91 to Newark -- UA has refrigerated containers).
 
TzvikaPick
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:43 pm

LH748 wrote:
EL AL is Israel
Under absolutely no circumstances will the Israeli government let its airline down. The country needs a strong flag carrier to keep the country connected and independent from any foreign airlines.

Exactly.
El Al is Israel and in Israel things work quite differently then how they work in other places. In Israel things are getting serious only at the last minutes. Why? I don't know, this is how it works down here. I am pretty sure that about 1 hour before El Al will shut down and go bankrupt, the government will loan them the cash just like they did many times before.

BTW, A few hours ago the Israeli Prime Minister finished a meeting with El Al management and it looks like El Al will get a 250 million USD loan if they will cut their costs by another 30-50 million USD.
 
workhorse
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:17 pm

While we all agree that El Al will not collapse, it is interesting to discuss how the current situation will impact them in terms of fleet and routes.

I haven't checked on them since a while and was surprised to see that they have only three aircraft types left in the fleet : 737, 777 and 787. I remember times when they had 737,747,757, 767 and 777 all at the same time.

So, now, what will happen? Will they try to get rid of the 777s? They are the oldest in the fleet, but on the other hand, they are the only ones to have First. I just can't imagine TLV-JFK without First.

Will they install an F section on the 789? Or will they keep the 777s and try to get rid of some of the 787s?
 
TzvikaPick
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:25 am

El Al was already planing to cancel the first class on the 777s before this crisis. The 777s should be getting a the same interior like the 787, meaning no first class, new and better business class , new premium economy class and higher density economy.

The 777s are owned by El Al, not leased. Selling an aging 777 now days is probably going to be really tough thing to do. I would guess it will be easier to get rid of some of the leased 787 or 737, lowering down the monthly leasing payments and giving some slack to the company cash flow. But I guess we'll have to wait and see what will happen.

BTW, another Israeli airline that is in a very bad shape right now is Arkia. It's the second largest airline in Israel, with 3 A321neoLRs and 4 Embraer 190/195. They already sent all of their personal to an unpaid leave and stopped operated completely. The company's share holders are meeting this Sunday to discuss the future of the airline, and bankruptcy is on the table.
 
SXDFC
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:56 pm

LY seems to operate quite a few older 737-800s. I'd imagine those would be great candidates for cargo conversions right? The LY livery would look good on those A321neo's however I believe that's an entire different discussion.
 
TzvikaPick
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:27 am

Things are starting to fall into place. Not for El Al but for the other 2 Israeli airlines.
Israir, Israel 3rd largest airline, will get a 100M NIS (about 28M USD) loan soon.
Arkia, the 2nd largest airline, might get a loan soon, they are still debating with the government about its terms. Arkia is planing to re-start operations in the next weeks, they plan to operate cargo flights to China.

link: https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.a ... 1001325398
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:03 pm

Regarding El Al, do they have any plan for their B738 replacements yet? Of their fleet of 16 (6 owned, 10 leased), 6 of them (3 of them fully owned) are older than 20 years. They have another ex-9W plane due in soon, but I can't see the oldest ones going beyond another 3-4 years. The MAX 8 or MAX 9 might have been considered, but that has been grounded for a year-plus.

As for their B772 fleet, that fleet isn't exactly new either, minus the last two (4X-ECE/F). 4X-ECA/B/C/D are 18-19 years old, unless El Al is expecting to fly them for 30 years (given that they don't fly on the Sabbath or major holy days).
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:21 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Regarding El Al, do they have any plan for their B738 replacements yet? Of their fleet of 16 (6 owned, 10 leased), 6 of them (3 of them fully owned) are older than 20 years. They have another ex-9W plane due in soon, but I can't see the oldest ones going beyond another 3-4 years. The MAX 8 or MAX 9 might have been considered, but that has been grounded for a year-plus.

As for their B772 fleet, that fleet isn't exactly new either, minus the last two (4X-ECE/F). 4X-ECA/B/C/D are 18-19 years old, unless El Al is expecting to fly them for 30 years (given that they don't fly on the Sabbath or major holy days).


At the moment, having your narrowbody fleet leased and old is actually among "those are good problems to have".
Once airlines come out, alive, on the other side of this thing, they'll be in the buyer's market.
I have no doubt, once El Al emerges past quarantine, leasing companies will storm their (and other surviving airlines') offices with a smorgasbord of planes, widebody and narrowbody alike. Not to mention administrators of bankrupt airlines' estates, eager to recoup something for the creditors...

IMHO, the task is now to actually get to the other side. It's good to be better positioned to take advantage of post-crisis circumstances. But getting across, alive, is the No1 priority.
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LAXintl
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:53 pm

To aid with liquidity, LY agreed to sale and 8-year lease back of 3 737-800 frames with for $76mil.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: EL AL denied loan package

Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:08 pm

LAXintl wrote:
To aid with liquidity, LY agreed to sale and 8-year lease back of 3 737-800 frames with for $76mil.


That leaves just 3 B738s left that are owned. I suspect that this covers the Air Europa NTU frames, as the other 3 frames would be fully paid off by now. (Before this started, the B738 fleet was 6 owned, 10 leased, and all 8 B739s were owned.) This now leaves the El Al fleet at 25 owned, 22 leased. (This includes an ex-9W B738 and an B788 not yet delivered.)
 
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UPDATE: 27-year-old investor buys controlling share of El Al (was: El Al temporarily ceases ops)

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:48 pm

Well this caught me off guard!
ELAL is to cancel all pax and cargo flights until further notice as a result of lost revenue due to COVID19
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/el-al ... ice-633391
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MAH4546
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:00 pm

They were barely operating in the first place. The entire July schedule was two weekly round-robin flights to Paris and London, a third to just Paris, three to JFK and one each to Miami and LA.
a.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pm

The schedule they were flying is because a lot of Jewish people were applying for and granted Israeli citizenship and were planning to leave their current countries to start anew in Israel. I could see foreign metal leased in like 2D or TS for aliyah flights.
 
raylee67
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:31 pm

I would think there are at least some air cargo demand to sustain cargo flights?
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ushermittwoch
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:01 pm

raylee67 wrote:
I would think there are at least some air cargo demand to sustain cargo flights?


Which can be covered by UPS, FedEx etc.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:16 pm

Keep the posts on aviation.
Political posts can and will result in a ban. This is your warning.

Lightsaber
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jfklganyc
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:20 pm

Not good...

The article seems quite bleak
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:31 pm

While this is bad and sad, specially for the airline workers and passengers affected, ElAl is among the airlines I wouldn't worry too much regarding its future. ElAl, Copa, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aeroflot, Emirates and some others, are among the privileged airlines who will count with the support of their countries no matter what, for whatever reasons, but they will be flying again once this Pandemic is over. We can not say the same about fully privately owned airlines who are left aside and abandoned by the governments of its respective countries, all in all, a real shame and a total disgrace for the flying public...
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jetblueguy22
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Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 pm

ushermittwoch wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
I would think there are at least some air cargo demand to sustain cargo flights?


Which can be covered by UPS, FedEx etc.

Maybe for the boxes, but the actual freight, not really. Airlines aren’t flying cargo in the cabin because it’s fun.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:05 pm

raylee67 wrote:
I would think there are at least some air cargo demand to sustain cargo flights?


And aliyah travel. That's why UA is running the B78X daily on TLV-EWR (it's the only carrier other than LY that didn't completely suspend the city pair). Cargo-only flights are on leased 5Y metal (operating under an LY callsign with N486MC flying it) since LY returned its sole B744 freighter to BlackRock. However, cargo between Israel and Europe, and then Europe and USA can also be handled on 5C/X7 metal (CAL/Challenge), who also owns LACHS, the major cargo handler at LGG, also providing services to 3V, ET (freight), and QR (freight)

As for the base issue of LY's potential collapse, the pilots likely want to get the attention of the Israeli government, who isn't really keen on re-nationalization. However, the current CEO, Gonen Usishkin, isn't exactly above winding up the airline.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4177
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:21 am

What happened with the saga regarding state aid? Did they receive it in the end? I guess if this goes on they will have to apply for more soon.

What is the situation with TLV? Are foreigners flying in and out? I read that foreigners won't be allowed in until mid-August.
 
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qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11137
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:31 pm

Just a reminder to keep your posts related to aviation. For non aviation discussion please discuss in the Covid-19 thread in non-aviation
Forum Moderator
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2616
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

Re: ELAL temporarily ceases ops

Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
ushermittwoch wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
I would think there are at least some air cargo demand to sustain cargo flights?


Which can be covered by UPS, FedEx etc.

Maybe for the boxes, but the actual freight, not really. Airlines aren’t flying cargo in the cabin because it’s fun.


You must not be too familiar with the operations and capabilities of these companies.
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