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Kikko19
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:43 am

I guess they'll retire the larger planes since there won't be demand more than for the fuel prices that now it's at the lowest.
 
Manny727
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:33 am

Dominion301 wrote:
At they're not retiring any 748s. This crisis is certainly going to hasten the demise of a large portion of the remaining 4 holers.


I doubt they will retire the 747-8's. Still fairly new and more fuel efficient than the A380.
 
mickster
Posts: 220
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:38 am

Here is a good overview of the measures / decisions taken by the LH Board:

Lufthansa Group outlines fleet, capacity reduction plans
 
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par13del
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:08 pm

Toinou wrote:
You don't need US laws on that aspect. Even if German government seems to be backing them, this is against EU regulations that are still in place. I guess a kind of solution may be found as part of relief packages that are set up all around Europe but at the moment, the rules are absolutely clear.

So airlines in the EU are willfully violating the rules while at the same time asking for a bail out?
I
 
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Polot
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:13 pm

par13del wrote:
Toinou wrote:
You don't need US laws on that aspect. Even if German government seems to be backing them, this is against EU regulations that are still in place. I guess a kind of solution may be found as part of relief packages that are set up all around Europe but at the moment, the rules are absolutely clear.

So airlines in the EU are willfully violating the rules while at the same time asking for a bail out?
I

Yes, LH is currently refusing to offer refunds. The German government is backing them because they argue that refunds would essentially just be coming from German taxpayers (since LH will have to be bailed out) and are asking the European Commission to temporarily adjust the rules.
 
lhrnue
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:28 pm

Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


Apart from the LH A380's currently flying. LH is the only airline having two in the air right now.
 
Lewton
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
What I find odd is no one type or sub-type is being eliminated which would seem to be the way to save the most money. I guess LH is really committed to fleet diversity.

Again this obsession with "commonality".
From Hamburg with love.
 
RvA
Posts: 375
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:38 pm

Polot wrote:
par13del wrote:
Toinou wrote:
You don't need US laws on that aspect. Even if German government seems to be backing them, this is against EU regulations that are still in place. I guess a kind of solution may be found as part of relief packages that are set up all around Europe but at the moment, the rules are absolutely clear.

So airlines in the EU are willfully violating the rules while at the same time asking for a bail out?
I

Yes, LH is currently refusing to offer refunds. The German government is backing them because they argue that refunds would essentially just be coming from German taxpayers (since LH will have to be bailed out) and are asking the European Commission to temporarily adjust the rules.


Do you have a source for “LH will have to be bailed out?”
 
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Polot
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:41 pm

RvA wrote:
Polot wrote:
par13del wrote:
So airlines in the EU are willfully violating the rules while at the same time asking for a bail out?
I

Yes, LH is currently refusing to offer refunds. The German government is backing them because they argue that refunds would essentially just be coming from German taxpayers (since LH will have to be bailed out) and are asking the European Commission to temporarily adjust the rules.


Do you have a source for “LH will have to be bailed out?”

LH and the German government are already talking: https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04 ... usive.html

Imo it’s a given. All major intercontinental airlines are going to get bailouts to ensure they remain competitive with each other, as there are foreign airlines in countries that have no qualms about handing over cash to their national airline.

If LH has to refund everyone they certainly would have to be bailed out, they can’t afford to give everyone their money back which is why they are refusing to do so.
 
KingB123
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:53 pm

If lufthansa and the German government are working together and asking the EU to bend the rules so that the German government can help lufthansa, then i suggest that the German government also bend their own rules and allow foreign airlines access into more German markets. I am looking at you Lufthansa, no need to be a hypocrite now.
King B
 
AZa346
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:56 pm

it is hilarious how Germany is bending rules, considering its strict lack of flexibility with the respect to other countries... both hopefully the lufthansa group will emerge in a decent and competitive way out of this
 
Eiszeit
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:56 pm

any EU airline can access the german market
 
asr0dzjq
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:07 pm

I wonder exactly which frames (tail numbers) will be retired.
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
danipawa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:13 pm

LGW going bankrupt?
 
KingB123
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:26 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
any EU airline can access the german market


yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad
King B
 
Lewton
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:28 pm

AZa346 wrote:
it is hilarious how Germany is bending rules, considering its strict lack of flexibility with the respect to other countries... both hopefully the lufthansa group will emerge in a decent and competitive way out of this

Germany did not ask for money from any other country in order to bend any rules.
It is doing the best it can to support its economy in this unprecedented crisis.

Italy, Spain, Greece etc want to support their economies just like Germany is doing, but because they do not have the money they are asking for Germany to let them all borrow money collectively.
Personally, I really really want this to happen.

However your accusation against Germany not allowing others to bend the rules is ridiculous. They are free to bend any rules they want as long as they have the cash.

The question is not whether Germany will let them bend the rules or not. The questions is whether Germany will sign off their loans or not.
From Hamburg with love.
 
Jetport
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:42 pm

lhrnue wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


Apart from the LH A380's currently flying. LH is the only airline having two in the air right now.


Thanks for pointing out 2 A380's are still flying. Anyone have any idea why? The A380's surely have a higher per trip cost than anything else in the fleet and they are likely flying mostly empty.
 
Eiszeit
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:51 pm

KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
any EU airline can access the german market


yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad


And why would germany or the EU care about access for these?
 
Eiszeit
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:52 pm

Jetport wrote:
lhrnue wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


Apart from the LH A380's currently flying. LH is the only airline having two in the air right now.


Thanks for pointing out 2 A380's are still flying. Anyone have any idea why? The A380's surely have a higher per trip cost than anything else in the fleet and they are likely flying mostly empty.


Repatriation from New Zealand, and the per seat cost is low when every seat is filled.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:55 pm

I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

As for the A320 retirement, that wasn't surprising, given that those to be retired are almost 30 years old. Among major carriers, only DL and AC still have A320s that vintage.
 
na
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:03 pm

Next will be which Aircraft Swiss, Austrian and Brussels will be retiring.
And I also expect that some 779s will be deferred.
 
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TurboJet707
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:12 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why would LH retire young 748 ? They need these planes for their range and capacity to far flung destinations


Well, actually the same would apply to the A380 and still, a number of these are now going. But I am relieved that the 747-8 Intercontinentals are here to stay (although most are temporarily grounded at the moment).
 
Eiszeit
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:22 pm

I would not be so sure about what is here to stay or not, the whole world is changing at a tremendous speed
 
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flee
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:29 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

Their reason for retiring A346/B744 was that these aircraft are not as environmentally friendly.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:40 pm

Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


I dont believe this will be just an LH phenomenon.
 
na
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:43 pm

flee wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

Their reason for retiring A346/B744 was that these aircraft are not as environmentally friendly.


...and in the case of the 744 its only an acceleration of one of two years as those Frames in question are 22 - 24 years old and well beyond 100.000 flight Hours. LH doesnt loose anything by retiring them now.
 
AZa346
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Lewton wrote:
Germany did not ask for money from any other country in order to bend any rules.

Don't you think that many of those (DUE!) refunds would be going to families and companies in the named countries, thus making it even harder for them to sail through the crisis? Intercontinental fares might go up to 1000 euros, so that is a full month of rent and some groceries if we talk about a family, or half of a decent salary for an employe....keep in mind that everything is very connected within the EU. Plus Germany would be going against EUROPEAN regulations, so same level of those for which they are standing up so firmly on another front...
 
acavpics
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:01 pm

What long haul routes do we think would be on the chopping block, given that quite a few widebodies are being retired?
 
acavpics
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:02 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


I dont believe this will be just an LH phenomenon.


No chance of them appearing during December 2020 holiday season? (Assuming that COVID is under control by then)
 
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par13del
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:04 pm

Lewton wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I find odd is no one type or sub-type is being eliminated which would seem to be the way to save the most money. I guess LH is really committed to fleet diversity.

Again this obsession with "commonality".

Its one of the founding principles or strengths of Airbus, cockpit commonality that is, so don't knock commonality.
 
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par13del
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:10 pm

Lewton wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
it is hilarious how Germany is bending rules, considering its strict lack of flexibility with the respect to other countries... both hopefully the lufthansa group will emerge in a decent and competitive way out of this

Germany did not ask for money from any other country in order to bend any rules.
It is doing the best it can to support its economy in this unprecedented crisis.

Italy, Spain, Greece etc want to support their economies just like Germany is doing, but because they do not have the money they are asking for Germany to let them all borrow money collectively.
Personally, I really really want this to happen.

However your accusation against Germany not allowing others to bend the rules is ridiculous. They are free to bend any rules they want as long as they have the cash.

The question is not whether Germany will let them bend the rules or not. The questions is whether Germany will sign off their loans or not.

So is it safe to say that in exchange for the approval of those loans, those counties will support Germany's "bending" of the rules to support LH?
 
Aither
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:15 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.


Where it works the A380 is a real cash cow. And airlines need cash.
Never trust the obvious
 
rlwynn
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:16 pm

The seats will be taken out of three A330's to use as cargo planes.
I can drive faster than you
 
B764er
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:17 pm

The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:25 pm

B764er wrote:
The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.


Hi Fly is taking delivery of the A339 (why an ACMI outfit is taking delivery of new planes is curious). That said, I believe that the A346 is too big for a charter outfit, as it can't go anywhere close to maximal capacity in a high-density configuration. Later A330-300s coming off lease, or with leases rejected, would be more ideal.

na wrote:
flee wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

Their reason for retiring A346/B744 was that these aircraft are not as environmentally friendly.


...and in the case of the 744 its only an acceleration of one of two years as those Frames in question are 22 - 24 years old and well beyond 100.000 flight Hours. LH doesnt loose anything by retiring them now.


As for the A346s, it might make more sense if one is talking about the early frames, which are likely approaching a heavy check. I expected the B744s to go. As for the B779, I'm not sure that makes much sense in the LH network; the A35K might make more sense as one could opt to put first class in those frames and make MUC's long haul fleet exclusively A350s. A version without F could be used at FRA, as part of a leaner Lufthansa.
 
Toinou
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm

B764er wrote:
The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.

Am I mean to think that this may be the last time EVER we discuss about Air Belgium? I can't see how they could survive what's happening at the moment.
 
na
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:38 pm

OMAAbound wrote:
Also which of the A380’s and A340’s will be getting a free one-way ticket to the scrap yard?
OMAA


A340-600s D-AIHC and D-AIHE are reported to be leaving for Teruel soon. Both are 16 years old.
 
na
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:38 pm

na wrote:
OMAAbound wrote:
Also which of the A380’s and A340’s will be getting a free one-way ticket to the scrap yard?
OMAA


A340-600s D-AIHC and D-AIHE are reported to be leaving for Teruel soon. Both are 16 years old.

As for the A380s I guess those will be put into long term storage.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:39 pm

Toinou wrote:
B764er wrote:
The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.

Am I mean to think that this may be the last time EVER we discuss about Air Belgium? I can't see how they could survive what's happening at the moment.

It will be tough. They were essentially surviving on 787 RR Trent groundings. Now replacing that loss capacity is less of a concern for airlines.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:49 pm

Lewton wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I find odd is no one type or sub-type is being eliminated which would seem to be the way to save the most money. I guess LH is really committed to fleet diversity.

Again this obsession with "commonality".

Commonality has its positives: it's simply easier and more flexible to deal with a small number of large fleets rather than a large number of small fleets. In a recent thread Lightsaber did some math and concluded you needed to have a fleet size of 17 to get meaningful economy of scale. VF gave us where LH finds itself:

VirginFlyer wrote:
What does this mean in terms of how many are left? Looking at what the fleet stood at before this crisis started:

  • A320-200: 73 down to 62 (assuming when they say A320 they just mean A320 and not A320 family, but that’s not clear)
  • A340-600: 17 down to 10
  • A380-800: 14 down to 8
  • B747-400: 13 down to 8

The fact they are referring to this as the first restructuring package means there could well be more to come as agreements are worked out with employee groups. It will be interesting to see how the fleet actually ends up when all the dust settles.

V/F

The Trents on A346 and A380 were bespoke models on small production runs, so rebuilds must be darn expensive. The CF6s on 744s are still in production for use on 767 and for spares for the rest of the (now dwindling fast) 744 fleet.

Diversity also has benefits: You can match the airplane's characteristics to the route more accurately, and if you have a MRO operation you can keep proficiency across more aircraft types increasing potential business.

I think in this case LH is not planning to shrink permanently so is keeping a core of aircraft in different sizes so when recovery happens it can again match aircraft to routes and regain economy of scale.
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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metalinyoni
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:55 pm

Are the commonality costs not more significant at the beginning of the introduction of a new type and as such have already been paid? The pilots and engineers have been trained so it’s not too relevant for on going costs?
300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 342, 343, 345, 346, 380, 707, 727, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 742, 74L, 743, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L 773, 77W, D10, AT46, AT76, AT75, 142, DH3, ER4, AR1, AR8
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:56 pm

Regarding commonality, for many airlines, that does come into play. However, for Lufthansa, which accepts work on a lot of models, and which also derives income from third-party maintenance from other airlines around the world, it may make sense to have more models in order to be able to accept work, and Lufthansa's fleet over the entire group is around 760 planes, with wide-body planes ranging from the B763 to the A388.
 
RvA
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:15 pm

About the rules everyone is saying LH is breaking, I’m genuinely curious what the rule is regarding refunds. They are temporarily not allowing them is my understanding, which is what a lot of ticket based sectors are doing by advising refunds will be possible shortly.
What is the rule LH (and others) are breaking if they are deferring refunds? What is the time rule they are not adhering to? Does it also apply to other sectors? (So are the concert companies behind 2 concerts I bought tickets for breaking the same rule?)
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:21 pm

the million questions? what routes are going to go? How many A350s will arrive this year? and where will the A380 stay?
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
AZa346
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:22 pm

RvA wrote:
About the rules everyone is saying LH is breaking, I’m genuinely curious what the rule is regarding refunds. They are temporarily not allowing them is my understanding, which is what a lot of ticket based sectors are doing by advising refunds will be possible shortly.
What is the rule LH (and others) are breaking if they are deferring refunds? What is the time rule they are not adhering to? Does it also apply to other sectors? (So are the concert companies behind 2 concerts I bought tickets for breaking the same rule?)

EU N. 261/2004
 
viennafly
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:40 pm

here is a nice overview over the ages and numbers of fleets of the LH Fleet:

https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/eurowings
 
KingB123
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:44 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
any EU airline can access the german market


yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad


And why would germany or the EU care about access for these?


So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!
King B
 
Eiszeit
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:51 pm

KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
KingB123 wrote:

yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad


And why would germany or the EU care about access for these?


So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


EK, QR, EY get whatever the bilateral between their home country and germany says nothing more nothing less, they have nothing to do with any EU rules. If the UAE or Qatar want to pay the LH bailout give them access.
Last edited by Eiszeit on Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2677
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:52 pm

I am not sure about the logic of this. Shouldn't LH simply have deferred all new deliveries for 2 years? Fuel prices will be low at least for the next 2 years which means that older aircraft are still good.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10508
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:23 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I am not sure about the logic of this. Shouldn't LH simply have deferred all new deliveries for 2 years? Fuel prices will be low at least for the next 2 years which means that older aircraft are still good.

You are assuming that LH needs to maintain it’s pre-COVID size for the next two years. In reality they need to get smaller. So dumping aircraft now, and using new aircraft to grow or further replace (mixed with deferments) later as required.
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