Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 8
 
NickGrant
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:49 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:10 am

I do think that is not true at all. Because you have to consider on reason. AUA is a fully Austrian registered company, their base and hub is in VIE as well as the aircraft registrations are OE-... furthermore all employees are working in Austria. Now let’s focus on Lauda. And the latter is a carrier which should have never received an AOC...they do not except their worker union which is in more ways against the law. They are paying a little of 960€ for a flight attendant and what they do with their employees at all is questionable (I just say education in Hahn by Crewlink). Even warnings and instructions from official Austrian courts can’t make them stop. And they also have very a bad fleet maintenance procedure. That violations AUA is in contrast also not allowed to do and don’t forget Lauda also has two bases in STR and DUS (Germany!!!) That’s why in my opinion I think AUA deserves a state aid, neither does Lauda, Level, Wizz and all the other LCC here in VIE.

P.S. if AUA does not receive any aid from wherever it could may file for bankruptcy and the disappearance of AUA would mean a massive reduction of long-haul flights in VIE moreover AUA is a very important employer in Austria, don’t forget...
 
jerseyewr777
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:06 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:38 am

Eurowings has dropped EWR & LH is not resuming EWR-DUS on their metal. Before this pandemic EWR was the only long haul route to operate daily from DUS & operate year round. LH group has operated this route for 30 years! JFK which was seasonal & less than daily will continue to operate! I'm confused!!! Based on schedules before this why is JFK being kept & EWR being dropped?
 
andrej
Posts: 1259
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:22 am

In regards to Germanwings. Over the past week, a lot of Q400s are being flown to Bratislava (for storage, maintenance, or both?). Yesterday, A319 also flew in. Anybody knows, how many planes in total are expected to be in Bratislava (and possibly for how long)?
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:27 am

All 15 Q400s. The rest should follow today. The A319 came to pick up the crew and/or for people who work as seasonal workers in farms.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:41 am

So what will be EW's fleet once they start flying again? I read somewhere they are getting rid of ten A320s, is that true?
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:57 am

10 A320 family of the group. (I heard it will be the A321s, which are an oddity and some of the old 4U A319s).
 
andrej
Posts: 1259
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:07 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
All 15 Q400s. The rest should follow today. The A319 came to pick up the crew and/or for people who work as seasonal workers in farms.


Thanks for your answer! I was not expecting that second part. Quite interesting charter.

Cheers,
Andrej
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:12 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
10 A320 family of the group. (I heard it will be the A321s, which are an oddity and some of the old 4U A319s).


So A321s are being retired? I suppose from LH mainline? They have some that are quite old.
 
bmibaby737
Posts: 1638
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:07 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:20 pm

Blerg wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
10 A320 family of the group. (I heard it will be the A321s, which are an oddity and some of the old 4U A319s).


So A321s are being retired? I suppose from LH mainline? They have some that are quite old.


More likely to be the ex- Air Berlin / LaudaMotion A321s that never received the Eurowings scheme
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:34 pm

bmibaby737 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
10 A320 family of the group. (I heard it will be the A321s, which are an oddity and some of the old 4U A319s).


So A321s are being retired? I suppose from LH mainline? They have some that are quite old.


More likely to be the ex- Air Berlin / LaudaMotion A321s that never received the Eurowings scheme


So EW was supposed to get A321s? I didn't know that, interesting. How come this never happened, especially last summer when additional capacity was needed pretty much everywhere.
 
User avatar
SASViking
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:39 pm

Blerg wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

So A321s are being retired? I suppose from LH mainline? They have some that are quite old.


More likely to be the ex- Air Berlin / LaudaMotion A321s that never received the Eurowings scheme


So EW was supposed to get A321s? I didn't know that, interesting. How come this never happened, especially last summer when additional capacity was needed pretty much everywhere.

Not "supposed to". They have A321's (or had before the lockdown)
https://www.eurowings.com/en/informatio ... fleet.html
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:55 pm

SASViking wrote:
Blerg wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:

More likely to be the ex- Air Berlin / LaudaMotion A321s that never received the Eurowings scheme


So EW was supposed to get A321s? I didn't know that, interesting. How come this never happened, especially last summer when additional capacity was needed pretty much everywhere.

Not "supposed to". They have A321's (or had before the lockdown)
https://www.eurowings.com/en/informatio ... fleet.html


Nice, thanks.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:04 pm

OS will remain grounded until at least May 17th, which is an extra two weeks over the most recent plans of May 3rd. https://www.austrian.com/Info/Flightinf ... g=en&cc=DE
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:36 pm

What’s up with Eurowings Longhaul?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24606
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:03 pm

Lufthansa to decommission all A340-600s
https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -a340-600s

=

Barely two weeks ago we reported that Lufthansa was retiring many aircraft from its fleet, including seven A340-600s.

Now the carrier says that it has decided to decommission its entire fleet of A340-600s, amounting to a total of 17 aircraft.

Lufthansa says that the aircraft in question will not be operating any regularly scheduled services for at least the next one to one and a half years.

Three A340-600s have already been flown to Teruel in northeastern Spain where they will be parked.

The remainder of the fleet will follow over the next two to three months, and Lufthansa says “A decision on the future use of the aircraft or a possible reactivation of a maximum of ten aircraft will be taken at a later date.”


=

Doubt we will see them back ever.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4446
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:18 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Lufthansa to decommission all A340-600s
https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -a340-600s

=

Barely two weeks ago we reported that Lufthansa was retiring many aircraft from its fleet, including seven A340-600s.

Now the carrier says that it has decided to decommission its entire fleet of A340-600s, amounting to a total of 17 aircraft.

Lufthansa says that the aircraft in question will not be operating any regularly scheduled services for at least the next one to one and a half years.

Three A340-600s have already been flown to Teruel in northeastern Spain where they will be parked.

The remainder of the fleet will follow over the next two to three months, and Lufthansa says “A decision on the future use of the aircraft or a possible reactivation of a maximum of ten aircraft will be taken at a later date.”


=

Doubt we will see them back ever.


No real surprises there. I fear the 747-400s won't last much longer - I missed out on both a KLM and a Lufthansa 747-400 flight this year due to storms and delayed/cancelled flights :cry2:
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24308
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:21 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I wonder why they don't just retire the fleet of A346 or B744 to take out a sub fleet rather than keeping the fleet stamp collector title?

I guess LH read your post and convened a few meetings to fully explore the suggestion.

Maybe they should send you a reward?

mxaxai wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Needless to say this plan could change as the situation changes right? They could decide to accelerate more retirements, that’s plausible right?

Absolutely. This is just a first step as it becomes clear that restrictions due to COVID19 will remain for a few months with all the economic damage that comes with it. Further retirements require strategic decisions that just can't be done in the current volatile situation; for example the path to the restructuring of SN and OS will take a few weeks if not months to become clear.

Truth.

Lewton wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I find odd is no one type or sub-type is being eliminated which would seem to be the way to save the most money. I guess LH is really committed to fleet diversity.

Again this obsession with "commonality".

Ahem!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
diverted
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:23 pm

VSMUT wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Lufthansa to decommission all A340-600s
https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -a340-600s

=

Barely two weeks ago we reported that Lufthansa was retiring many aircraft from its fleet, including seven A340-600s.

Now the carrier says that it has decided to decommission its entire fleet of A340-600s, amounting to a total of 17 aircraft.

Lufthansa says that the aircraft in question will not be operating any regularly scheduled services for at least the next one to one and a half years.

Three A340-600s have already been flown to Teruel in northeastern Spain where they will be parked.

The remainder of the fleet will follow over the next two to three months, and Lufthansa says “A decision on the future use of the aircraft or a possible reactivation of a maximum of ten aircraft will be taken at a later date.”


=

Doubt we will see them back ever.


No real surprises there. I fear the 747-400s won't last much longer - I missed out on both a KLM and a Lufthansa 747-400 flight this year due to storms and delayed/cancelled flights :cry2:


Probably got my last ride on a LH 744 in December (D-ABTK) FRA-YYZ. Only downside is I was originally supposed to be flying the 346 MUC-YUL but my inbound flight to MUC was a few hours delayed. At least I got a Cityline 343 (not that it's particularly interesting) in October. While the 359 is a great ride, it's been nice trying to get a last trip on some of the more elderly birds.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4314
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:41 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Lufthansa to decommission all A340-600s

Now the carrier says that it has decided to decommission its entire fleet of A340-600s, amounting to a total of 17 aircraft.

Lufthansa says that the aircraft in question will not be operating any regularly scheduled services for at least the next one to one and a half years.


:hissyfit: Well that spoilt my day. I really hope that some of them do return, but how many airlines have mothballed a sizeable fleet of Long Haul aircraft for 1.5 years and had them return back to service? At the very least I hope that some end up in museums.

Will light a candle for D-AIHB tonight. :cry2:
First to fly the 787-9
 
LHA320
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I wonder why they don't just retire the fleet of A346 or B744 to take out a sub fleet rather than keeping the fleet stamp collector title?

I guess LH read your post and convened a few meetings to fully explore the suggestion.



Well, maybe he will get another award soon. Like I said in the other LH fleet thread (btw, why are there 2 LH fleet threads?) the 744 will be the next subfleet to go when pax numbers are bad after implementing the "after corona" flight plan. Reduction of A343 in favor of more A333 from other LH Group airlines also possible. Just a rumor, I assume we have to wait until Summer. General motivation at LH is currently to reduce WB capacity, which the rumor of 777X slot trade for 777F underlines. While sad times for the industry, we really have a chance to move some fleet around in the coming months.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:16 pm

Such a shame about the A340 but I can't say I am too surprised about their decision. I know all airlines are struggling right now but LH seems to be cutting more than other airlines of their size. Is there more than what is on the surface? With such drastic cuts at LH, I doubt we will see OS get anything brand new. Maybe they could get hold of some younger B772s.

Also with more brand new planes ordered, I doubt these A340s will be back...ever. I am happy I managed to catch a ride on the A346 from SFO to MUC. Hope the B744 stays a bit longer though.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:34 pm

LHA320 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I wonder why they don't just retire the fleet of A346 or B744 to take out a sub fleet rather than keeping the fleet stamp collector title?

I guess LH read your post and convened a few meetings to fully explore the suggestion.



Well, maybe he will get another award soon. Like I said in the other LH fleet thread (btw, why are there 2 LH fleet threads?) the 744 will be the next subfleet to go when pax numbers are bad after implementing the "after corona" flight plan. Reduction of A343 in favor of more A333 from other LH Group airlines also possible. Just a rumor, I assume we have to wait until Summer. General motivation at LH is currently to reduce WB capacity, which the rumor of 777X slot trade for 777F underlines. While sad times for the industry, we really have a chance to move some fleet around in the coming months.


I hope you are right and wrong (could that be OK?). Well let me explain my thoughts.

In 2007/2008 financial crisis and the followed oil price spike really announced death of A340 series for many airlines at that time. (for example the A345 in Thai and SQ to think a few examples). For many aviation enthusiasts like me, I did not get a chance to ride the A345 and it is gone. I am really worried that the prolonged coronavirus may just force LH to call it a day for the A343 fleet like the A346. All of a sudden with SAA get rid of the A340 after airlines like SAS and Iberia soon, we may find ourselves in a situation that A340 becomes difficult to find to fly on in future. It is a bad thing for newer aviation enthusiasts who have not flown the A340 yet.

But then again, I see the logic of simplified fleet types and I actually support that idea. So I am torn between the two sides.

I think I will say that I will miss the A340s but I know it is evitable.

I wouldn't miss the B744 though. Have flown on this majestic planes for many times. And I like the B748 rather than B744. It is just a pity that not many airlines have B748. To be frank, I would rather see LH keep its A380s than B744, but order more B748s please!
 
LHA320
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:15 pm

chonetsao wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess LH read your post and convened a few meetings to fully explore the suggestion.



Well, maybe he will get another award soon. Like I said in the other LH fleet thread (btw, why are there 2 LH fleet threads?) the 744 will be the next subfleet to go when pax numbers are bad after implementing the "after corona" flight plan. Reduction of A343 in favor of more A333 from other LH Group airlines also possible. Just a rumor, I assume we have to wait until Summer. General motivation at LH is currently to reduce WB capacity, which the rumor of 777X slot trade for 777F underlines. While sad times for the industry, we really have a chance to move some fleet around in the coming months.


I hope you are right and wrong (could that be OK?). Well let me explain my thoughts.

In 2007/2008 financial crisis and the followed oil price spike really announced death of A340 series for many airlines at that time. (for example the A345 in Thai and SQ to think a few examples). For many aviation enthusiasts like me, I did not get a chance to ride the A345 and it is gone. I am really worried that the prolonged coronavirus may just force LH to call it a day for the A343 fleet like the A346. All of a sudden with SAA get rid of the A340 after airlines like SAS and Iberia soon, we may find ourselves in a situation that A340 becomes difficult to find to fly on in future. It is a bad thing for newer aviation enthusiasts who have not flown the A340 yet.

But then again, I see the logic of simplified fleet types and I actually support that idea. So I am torn between the two sides.

I think I will say that I will miss the A340s but I know it is evitable.

I wouldn't miss the B744 though. Have flown on this majestic planes for many times. And I like the B748 rather than B744. It is just a pity that not many airlines have B748. To be frank, I would rather see LH keep its A380s than B744, but order more B748s please!


It would be ok for me, but unfortunately most information from the sources I got this from are bulletproof. It is very, very unlikely that you will get the opportunity to fly the A346 at LH again, but the A343 will not be gone anytime soon. Talks are just about fleet reduction, means the oldest frames will be phased out with maybe 10 remaining, but that is just bare talks right now. D-AIGL for example was scheduled to leave last year, but was granted a longer life due to the transfer of 4 A333 to EW. As it is very likely for those 4 frames to come back to mainline, some A343 would be freed up.

Endangered species at LH are the A346 (which is theoratically gone) and the 744. The 748 is the quad jet with the safest future at LH and you can enjoy them for many years to come!
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
oldJoe
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:57 am

As a pax I love the 380`s over everthing in the LH fleet ! If the 748`s are the future, good bye from me LH !!!
 
Sokes
Posts: 1624
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:13 am

KingB123 wrote:
Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.

zkojq wrote:
The German government should send the bill for the repatriation flights directly to EK. After all EK is the one stranding them and then refusing refunds.

blueflyer wrote:
Will that bill be mailed before or after checks to passengers who suddenly found themselves banned from flying to/through Germany and can't get Lufthansa to issue a cash refund?

While I'm in favor of the German government not telling me among which competitors I have to choose and which I can't choose, I find KingB123's reasoning shocking. Either zkojq wasn't aware of Lufthansa's policies or he shows a preference for European carriers and unfreedom in the air.
blueflyer exposes it, but can't get an answer.
Then there is the reasoning that Gulf airlines don't need more city connections, as those cities are already covered by other competitors. Simply not true. I sat in a plane from Arabian Gulf to Goa. The guy next to me said he first had to take a flight from Dortmund to Munich.

Why to discuss if we are not willing to admit a gap in knowledge or contradicting evidence? Indeed the deeper one digs into a subject, the less certain one may become. That's not true for most subjects, but for most subjects in the political field it is.
"Should airlines be commercial enterprises or a means for a government to promote their policies?" is also among topics with no clear answer. The answer for a country whose economy depends on rich people from all over the world spending surplus value of labor in that country may be different than for a country that depends on industry. Two countries who both depend on industries may come to different answers depending on rate of unemployment or trade deficit or the number and size of metropolitan areas. There should be more factors which however I'm not aware of.

"Socrates begins all wisdom with wondering, thus one must begin with admitting one's ignorance. After all, Socrates' dialectic method of teaching was based on that he as a teacher knew nothing, so he would derive knowledge from his students by dialogue."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_th ... ow_nothing

I therefore don't object that a person holds one view or the opposite one. I object that contradicting evidence is not appreciated and object to the strength of conviction many people hold. Socrates is overdoing it. But he does so to teach us a lesson.
To make matters worse, I feel some people will consider all evidence that supports their view and reject all evidence that contradicts it. That may be appropriate for religion, but not in a supposed enlightened society.

"Philosophical skepticism comes in various forms. Radical forms of skepticism deny that knowledge or rational belief is possible and urge us to suspend judgment on many or all controversial matters. More moderate forms of skepticism claim only that nothing can be known with certainty, or that we can know little or nothing about the big questions in life, such as whether God exists or whether there is an afterlife. Religious skepticism is "doubt concerning basic religious principles (such as immortality, providence, and revelation)".[4] Scientific skepticism concerns testing beliefs for reliability, by subjecting them to systematic investigation using the scientific method, to discover empirical evidence for them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

Usually discussions on a.net are better than that. I assume with a lot of jobs at risk one has to expect this. So if you feel concern for your job, please double check before posting.
But then I'm a bit autistic. Maybe this discussion serves for people to cope with their worries and I fail to get the point?
Well, here we are. Socrates is right: I know very little.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4314
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:30 am

Sokes wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.

zkojq wrote:
The German government should send the bill for the repatriation flights directly to EK. After all EK is the one stranding them and then refusing refunds.

blueflyer wrote:
Will that bill be mailed before or after checks to passengers who suddenly found themselves banned from flying to/through Germany and can't get Lufthansa to issue a cash refund?

While I'm in favor of the German government not telling me among which competitors I have to choose and which I can't choose, I find KingB123's reasoning shocking. Either zkojq wasn't aware of Lufthansa's policies or he shows a preference for European carriers and unfreedom in the air.
blueflyer exposes it, but can't get an answer.
Then there is the reasoning that Gulf airlines don't need more city connections, as those cities are already covered by other competitors. Simply not true. I sat in a plane from Arabian Gulf to Goa. The guy next to me said he first had to take a flight from Dortmund to Munich.

Why to discuss if we are not willing to admit a gap in knowledge or contradicting evidence? Indeed the deeper one digs into a subject, the less certain one may become. That's not true for most subjects, but for most subjects in the political field it is.
"Should airlines be commercial enterprises or a means for a government to promote their policies?" is also among topics with no clear answer. The answer for a country whose economy depends on rich people from all over the world spending surplus value of labor in that country may be different than for a country that depends on industry. Two countries who both depend on industries may come to different answers depending on rate of unemployment or trade deficit or the number and size of metropolitan areas. There should be more factors which however I'm not aware of.

"Socrates begins all wisdom with wondering, thus one must begin with admitting one's ignorance. After all, Socrates' dialectic method of teaching was based on that he as a teacher knew nothing, so he would derive knowledge from his students by dialogue."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_th ... ow_nothing

I therefore don't object that a person holds one view or the opposite one. I object that contradicting evidence is not appreciated and object to the strength of conviction many people hold. Socrates is overdoing it. But he does so to teach us a lesson.
To make matters worse, I feel some people will consider all evidence that supports their view and reject all evidence that contradicts it. That may be appropriate for religion, but not in a supposed enlightened society.

"Philosophical skepticism comes in various forms. Radical forms of skepticism deny that knowledge or rational belief is possible and urge us to suspend judgment on many or all controversial matters. More moderate forms of skepticism claim only that nothing can be known with certainty, or that we can know little or nothing about the big questions in life, such as whether God exists or whether there is an afterlife. Religious skepticism is "doubt concerning basic religious principles (such as immortality, providence, and revelation)".[4] Scientific skepticism concerns testing beliefs for reliability, by subjecting them to systematic investigation using the scientific method, to discover empirical evidence for them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

Usually discussions on a.net are better than that. I assume with a lot of jobs at risk one has to expect this. So if you feel concern for your job, please double check before posting.
But then I'm a bit autistic. Maybe this discussion serves for people to cope with their worries and I fail to get the point?
Well, here we are. Socrates is right: I know very little.


Airlines should compete on a relatively level playing field. That means that the ME2 should not be able to have their civil aviation authorities write rules that favour them over airlines from developed countries. Having stupid policies about reporting times and whether time in the bunk counts as duty time unfairly advantages carriers who's CAAs are more interested in keeping them as profitable as possible than safety.
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9629
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:39 am

Airlines are a strategic asset for than ever.
 
User avatar
A321Lufthansa
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:40 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:30 am

Blerg wrote:
Maybe they could get hold of some younger B772s.

Maybe the B763s OE-LAT - LAX will leave the fleet finally?
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:49 am

LHA320 wrote:
Reduction of A343 in favor of more A333 from other LH Group airlines also possible.

The A333 at LH are all lower MTOW variants. This makes the A343 the only "long-and-thin" aircraft in their fleet, and for this reason we will probably see a few remain with LH and LX for a while (as well as crew commonality with the A333). You don't need the A340's range on holiday runs to Florida but it was used on routes like ZRH-HKG, FRA-NGO or FRA-SAN that might not be suitable for LH's (or LX') A330 fleet.

There's definitely potential for a fleet reduction, though. A weak economy may make such routes unviable to begin with; on the other hand some routes that used to be served with B744 or B748 may not have the traffic anymore and could be downgauged to the A343 (example: FRA-KIX or FRA-EZE).
 
stylo777
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:59 am

mxaxai wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
Reduction of A343 in favor of more A333 from other LH Group airlines also possible.

The A333 at LH are all lower MTOW variants. This makes the A343 the only "long-and-thin" aircraft in their fleet, and for this reason we will probably see a few remain with LH and LX for a while (as well as crew commonality with the A333). You don't need the A340's range on holiday runs to Florida but it was used on routes like ZRH-HKG, FRA-NGO or FRA-SAN that might not be suitable for LH's (or LX') A330 fleet.

There's definitely potential for a fleet reduction, though. A weak economy may make such routes unviable to begin with; on the other hand some routes that used to be served with B744 or B748 may not have the traffic anymore and could be downgauged to the A343 (example: FRA-KIX or FRA-EZE).

any idea of the applied MTOW of 333 and 343 on LH and how does it compare to LX as well as other airlines' versions?
ETOPS on the 333 is also another restricting factor for sure
 
User avatar
DABYT
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:59 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:10 am

mxaxai wrote:
There's definitely potential for a fleet reduction, though. A weak economy may make such routes unviable to begin with; on the other hand some routes that used to be served with B744 or B748 may not have the traffic anymore and could be downgauged to the A343 (example: FRA-KIX or FRA-EZE).


Don’t know about FRA-KIX but FRA-EZE is premium heavy so I doubt the A343 would make sense but never say never.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9629
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:33 am

The A343 are not meaningfully worse in economics than a early 777, they are fully paid off and still cheap to maintain. They always made a good reserve capacity fleet.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:36 am

stylo777 wrote:
any idea of the applied MTOW of 333 and 343 on LH and how does it compare to LX as well as other airlines' versions?
ETOPS on the 333 is also another restricting factor for sure

All of LH and LX A330 should be the 233 ton variant. Edelweiss Air has a single A333 that was delivered in 2016, that one could be the 242 ton variant (but I'm not sure). Almost all A330-300 that were delivered between 2000 and 2015 have an MTOW of 230 or 233 tons, unless an airline requests a lower rating.

Their A340-300 are all the higher MTOW (275 ton) version that has been standard for all but the first few aircraft.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24308
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
The A343 are not meaningfully worse in economics than a early 777, they are fully paid off and still cheap to maintain. They always made a good reserve capacity fleet.

User smartplane just made an interesting comment in our CX thread that some fully paid for planes are collateral for loans and if those planes get scrapped then the terms of the loan are violated.

This means some fleets are getting parked not because they are going to come back in to service but because they can't be broken up till the loan is paid or refinanced (which is unlikely in the current climate).

I think this could explain why we saw LH first decide to park some of the A346 and later decided to park them all. The first batch may have been unencumbered so those were easy to send to retirement. Now on further evaluation it may be sensible to park them all and only send them for scrapping once all the financing issues are resolved.

In this scenario the unscrapped airplanes can be thought of as reserve capacity not likely to be ever used.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mikedelta720
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:02 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:43 pm

This is so sad! :frown: I haven't had a chance to fly their A340-600 yet! I'll also miss working on them. Hopefully, if things turn out for the better, LH can still fly them after they're stored.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9629
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:43 pm

13 A346 are indeed part of sale and lease back deal.
 
SA280
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:12 pm

mxaxai wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
Reduction of A343 in favor of more A333 from other LH Group airlines also possible.

The A333 at LH are all lower MTOW variants. This makes the A343 the only "long-and-thin" aircraft in their fleet, and for this reason we will probably see a few remain with LH and LX for a while (as well as crew commonality with the A333). You don't need the A340's range on holiday runs to Florida but it was used on routes like ZRH-HKG, FRA-NGO or FRA-SAN that might not be suitable for LH's (or LX') A330 fleet.

There's definitely potential for a fleet reduction, though. A weak economy may make such routes unviable to begin with; on the other hand some routes that used to be served with B744 or B748 may not have the traffic anymore and could be downgauged to the A343 (example: FRA-KIX or FRA-EZE).

Airlines in Europe are working with scenarios of traffic returning to 2019 levels between 2022 and 2025, with short-haul starting faster but peaking up simultaneously with long-haul, as a relevant part of short-haul traffic in Europe is long-haul feeding.

Having that said and considering that Lufthansa is quite a conservative airline when it comes to capacity discipline, I would say that they are closer to the 2025 scenario rather than the 2022 one.

So, most of the long and thin routes that require such an specific aircraft as the A343 will be definitively cut off network right now. And they might have a chance to return once the airline takes delivery of their B787s. But definitely the A343s are no longer so necessary.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:04 pm

OS and LH leadership (board members) will hold talks with the Austrian government starting today. OS has not filed a formal request for assistance yet and the government isn't satisfied with the plans presented by the airline so far.
Up to 750 mln € volume, of which 300 mln € would be for ticket refunds alone. The Austrian government remains open to all options to ensure that Austria remains connected by air and VIE isn't dehubbed; these options include loans, non-repayable subsidies and partial ownership.

https://apps.derstandard.at/privacywall ... aua-hilfen [German]
https://www.airliners.de/oesterreich-te ... rian/54900 [German]

Also, Ryanair-owned LaudaMotion doesn't need support but asks the Austrian government to pay them at least 2/3rds of what OS gets.
 
Lewton
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:46 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:30 pm

If Austria does not want VIE to be dehubbed they should let OS collapse and support an Austrian airline.
Having said that, given I do not live in Austria, I am happy to see the Austrian government supporting Lufthansa.
From Hamburg with love.
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:38 pm

Lewton wrote:
If Austria does not want VIE to be dehubbed they should let OS collapse and support an Austrian airline.


OS is an Austrian airline. It does belong to Lufthansa Group but it is an Austrian registered airline.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:10 pm

fraT wrote:
Lewton wrote:
If Austria does not want VIE to be dehubbed they should let OS collapse and support an Austrian airline.


OS is an Austrian airline. It does belong to Lufthansa Group but it is an Austrian registered airline.


By that logic so is Lauda. If they don't want VIE to be dehubbed then they can always hold talks with Ryanair for Lauda to slowly start filling that void and to start offering connections. Why not? Makes much more sense than to financially support LH's adventure in Austria especially now when MUC is booming as a hub. On top of that, Lufthansa has refused to invest into OS' long-haul product.

This is the perfect opportunity for the Austrian government to force LH to fully commit to making sure OS grows.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:24 pm

Lewton wrote:
If Austria does not want VIE to be dehubbed they should let OS collapse and support an Austrian airline.
Having said that, given I do not live in Austria, I am happy to see the Austrian government supporting Lufthansa.

OS is first and foremost an airline for the Austrian market. LH would not keep the brand name otherwise. The current arrangement is far better for Austria and OS than a stand-alone operation could ever be. Lufthansa group is able to operate certain unique routes from each of their hubs that the other group airlines could never serve. Realistically, how many flights to Africa and South America would a non-Lufthansa OS have? Probably not more than today. Would OS serve more US destinations? Possibly, but nowhere close to the many daily flights spread across the group's various airlines.

None of the small European long haul carriers can survive on their own, they need at least codeshare partners to cover markets that they can't serve themselves. (Unless you have very special niche markets like FI)
 
User avatar
Terrier79
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:44 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:05 pm

Blerg wrote:
By that logic so is Lauda. If they don't want VIE to be dehubbed then they can always hold talks with Ryanair for Lauda to slowly start filling that void and to start offering connections. Why not? Makes much more sense than to financially support LH's adventure in Austria especially now when MUC is booming as a hub.


Ryanair/Lauda do not and will never operate a hub at VIE. Hub and spoke is simply not their business model, and neither is longhaul. On top, it is kind of funny talking about LH's engagement in Austria as an adventure. The real adventurer here is MoL with his unsustainable, ever loss making Lauda endeavour.

Blerg wrote:
On top of that, Lufthansa has refused to invest into OS' long-haul product.


This statement is heard repeatedly, but is simply untrue. Under LH's ownership, Austrians longhaul fleet has been growing by two 77E. That's +20% in frames and even more in seats. The whole longhaul fleet has received a new business class hard product (enhanced version of the Swiss seat) and was equipped with an all new premium economy class. Plus they experimented quite a bit with new longhaul destinations, though in all honesty, not all successful. Those were significant investments.

Blerg wrote:
This is the perfect opportunity for the Austrian government to force LH to fully commit to making sure OS grows.


This can be a win-win or a lose-lose. The Austrian government should not overestimate their position. If the conditions of the Austrian government are to harsh, LH could consider to pull the plug.
 
User avatar
nordikcam
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:41 pm

Lewton wrote:
If Austria does not want VIE to be dehubbed they should let OS collapse and support an Austrian airline.
Having said that, given I do not live in Austria, I am happy to see the Austrian government supporting Lufthansa.


And I guess LH will have the same problem with SN, BRU and the belgian Government...
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:41 pm

nordikcam wrote:
Lewton wrote:
If Austria does not want VIE to be dehubbed they should let OS collapse and support an Austrian airline.
Having said that, given I do not live in Austria, I am happy to see the Austrian government supporting Lufthansa.


And I guess LH will have the same problem with SN, BRU and the belgian Government...

Can't speak for Austria, however in Belgium while it is the position of the political class and the "elites" that the country needs to find a way to work with Lufthansa on supporting Brussels Airlines, popular opinion isn't ready to spend untold millions of taxpayer money in the adventure, even if it comes at the cost of a collapse of the carrier. Brussels Airlines was born out of the ashes of Sabena with a mixture of public and private capital. Having a do-over is a popular opinion.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:00 pm

Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
By that logic so is Lauda. If they don't want VIE to be dehubbed then they can always hold talks with Ryanair for Lauda to slowly start filling that void and to start offering connections. Why not? Makes much more sense than to financially support LH's adventure in Austria especially now when MUC is booming as a hub.


Ryanair/Lauda do not and will never operate a hub at VIE. Hub and spoke is simply not their business model, and neither is longhaul. On top, it is kind of funny talking about LH's engagement in Austria as an adventure. The real adventurer here is MoL with his unsustainable, ever loss making Lauda endeavour.

Blerg wrote:
On top of that, Lufthansa has refused to invest into OS' long-haul product.


This statement is heard repeatedly, but is simply untrue. Under LH's ownership, Austrians longhaul fleet has been growing by two 77E. That's +20% in frames and even more in seats. The whole longhaul fleet has received a new business class hard product (enhanced version of the Swiss seat) and was equipped with an all new premium economy class. Plus they experimented quite a bit with new longhaul destinations, though in all honesty, not all successful. Those were significant investments.

Blerg wrote:
This is the perfect opportunity for the Austrian government to force LH to fully commit to making sure OS grows.


This can be a win-win or a lose-lose. The Austrian government should not overestimate their position. If the conditions of the Austrian government are to harsh, LH could consider to pull the plug.


And how exactly is Lauda an unsustainable business model? They are currently in the phase of consolidating their business and growing their brand, something that is extremely normal. I remember some 20 years ago people said we will never see FR fly from main airports yet today the situation is very much different. Once FR runs out of markets to expand into they will no doubt look at offering connections. After all, wasn't there a proposal some years ago to start doing it in Rome with a minimum connecting time of three hours? So if the Austrian government gives them a good deal I could see them do it. If anything, MoL and FR have been extremely practical and have been able to adapt to many different situations.

Here we go: https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/conn ... fiumicino/

As for Austrian Airlines, their long-haul situation is not great. Sure they got a brand new business class product but their youngest widebody aircraft is 17 years old! As for their list of destinations, over the past years I think they didn't add that many, they mostly reshuffled what they already had. From the top of my head, Austrian Airlines discontinued some high profile routes such as New Delhi (transferred to AI), Miami, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Los Angeles was turned into a seasonal destination and reduced from daily to five weekly... They even launched Montreal at the expense of Toronto which was transferred to Air Canada. It didn't take long before AC upgraded the route from a B788 to B789. Meanwhile OS keeps on flying to Montreal with its ancient and outdated B763!

Meanwhile Lufthansa's long-haul network from Munich has thrived and they even transferred there some A380s and they even based their brand new A350s. For two Lufthansa hubs, Munich and Vienna are just too close to each other. Austrian government probably gets feedback from OS staff in Vienna and I am sure they voiced their unhappiness with these things.

Lufthansa publicly said that they will not invest into OS' long-haul fleet until the airline manages to turn a profit. We all know that's a joke given the ongoing bloodbath over there.
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:04 pm

A stand alone hub airline in Austria will fail. MUC and ZRH are way too close and if VIE wouldn’t be a LHG hub they could seriously impede an airline in VIE from running a hub. Point of point exists of course but look at how many nonstop services other non local airlines have to VIE vs for example MUC or ZRH and seems to be the demand for VIE isn’t too high. AA and DL serve MUC and ZRH for instance but not VIE to look at a transatlantic example.

OS isn’t going anywhere I think and cannot see it decoupled from the LHG.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:13 pm

RvA wrote:
A stand alone hub airline in Austria will fail. MUC and ZRH are way too close and if VIE wouldn’t be a LHG hub they could seriously impede an airline in VIE from running a hub. Point of point exists of course but look at how many nonstop services other non local airlines have to VIE vs for example MUC or ZRH and seems to be the demand for VIE isn’t too high. AA and DL serve MUC and ZRH for instance but not VIE to look at a transatlantic example.

OS isn’t going anywhere I think and cannot see it decoupled from the LHG.


Actually Zurich doesn't impact Vienna as much as Munich does, you can see that by looking at where Lufthansa grew in recent months and years. There is definitely a growing overlap there especially in eastern Europe and the Balkans. A small example, when Adria went bankrupt, LH and LX launched flights to LJU but OS stayed out despite JP having double daily flights up until the very end. Ljubljana is one of rare destinations in ex-YU where LX manages to operate successfully.

As for Vienna, don't forget that it also has Budapest and Bratislava with which it has to compete. Munich doesn't really have an equivalent in that sense as neither NUE nor FMM are serious competitors.
 
User avatar
Terrier79
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:44 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:23 pm

Blerg wrote:
As for Austrian Airlines, their long-haul situation is not great. Sure they got a brand new business class product but their youngest widebody aircraft is 17 years old! As for their list of destinations, over the past years I think they didn't add that many, they mostly reshuffled what they already had. From the top of my head, Austrian Airlines discontinued some high profile routes such as New Delhi (transferred to AI), Miami, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Los Angeles was turned into a seasonal destination and reduced from daily to five weekly... They even launched Montreal at the expense of Toronto which was transferred to Air Canada. It didn't take long before AC upgraded the route from a B788 to B789. Meanwhile OS keeps on flying to Montreal with its ancient and outdated B763!

Meanwhile Lufthansa's long-haul network from Munich has thrived and they even transferred there some A380s and they even based their brand new A350s. For two Lufthansa hubs, Munich and Vienna are just too close to each other. Austrian government probably gets feedback from OS staff in Vienna and I am sure they voiced their unhappiness with these things.

Lufthansa publicly said that they will not invest into OS' long-haul fleet until the airline manages to turn a profit. We all know that's a joke given the ongoing bloodbath over there.


It's no secret that Austrian's longhaul fleet is aging and needs renewal if Austrian decides to go ahead with longhaul flying from Vienna. One main condition is that this is profitable. Over the past years, Austrian has mostly earned a small profit at least, abeit insufficient to afford a new longhaul fleet. So it is now a strategic decision by mother company Lufthansa whether they want to give their daughter some beautiful new frames e.g. from that B787 order for the group and continue longhaul flying from Vienna or not under these circumstances. My impression was that they would receive some frames, but end up with a smaller longhaul fleet and network than today.

As for the Munich - Vienna comparison, which seems to hurt you much, just two numbers to compare:

Population:
- Bavaria: 13,1 million
- Austria: 8,86 million

GDP
- Bavaria: 625 billion EUR (2018)
- Austria: 385 billion EUR (2018)

You see that the state of Bavaria alone is amost double of whole Austria in both numbers, which could be a good indicator why MUC is thriving and VIE less. Bigger catchment are, much wealthier. The far superior airport of MUC adds up to it, plus of course the strength of the Lufthansa brand worldwide which is essential if you want to fill up your aircraft with connecting passengers that have no ties to the transit country and hub, but just want to connect from A to B via X.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:36 am

Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
As for Austrian Airlines, their long-haul situation is not great. Sure they got a brand new business class product but their youngest widebody aircraft is 17 years old! As for their list of destinations, over the past years I think they didn't add that many, they mostly reshuffled what they already had. From the top of my head, Austrian Airlines discontinued some high profile routes such as New Delhi (transferred to AI), Miami, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Los Angeles was turned into a seasonal destination and reduced from daily to five weekly... They even launched Montreal at the expense of Toronto which was transferred to Air Canada. It didn't take long before AC upgraded the route from a B788 to B789. Meanwhile OS keeps on flying to Montreal with its ancient and outdated B763!

Meanwhile Lufthansa's long-haul network from Munich has thrived and they even transferred there some A380s and they even based their brand new A350s. For two Lufthansa hubs, Munich and Vienna are just too close to each other. Austrian government probably gets feedback from OS staff in Vienna and I am sure they voiced their unhappiness with these things.

Lufthansa publicly said that they will not invest into OS' long-haul fleet until the airline manages to turn a profit. We all know that's a joke given the ongoing bloodbath over there.


It's no secret that Austrian's longhaul fleet is aging and needs renewal if Austrian decides to go ahead with longhaul flying from Vienna. One main condition is that this is profitable. Over the past years, Austrian has mostly earned a small profit at least, abeit insufficient to afford a new longhaul fleet. So it is now a strategic decision by mother company Lufthansa whether they want to give their daughter some beautiful new frames e.g. from that B787 order for the group and continue longhaul flying from Vienna or not under these circumstances. My impression was that they would receive some frames, but end up with a smaller longhaul fleet and network than today.

As for the Munich - Vienna comparison, which seems to hurt you much, just two numbers to compare:

Population:
- Bavaria: 13,1 million
- Austria: 8,86 million

GDP
- Bavaria: 625 billion EUR (2018)
- Austria: 385 billion EUR (2018)

You see that the state of Bavaria alone is amost double of whole Austria in both numbers, which could be a good indicator why MUC is thriving and VIE less. Bigger catchment are, much wealthier. The far superior airport of MUC adds up to it, plus of course the strength of the Lufthansa brand worldwide which is essential if you want to fill up your aircraft with connecting passengers that have no ties to the transit country and hub, but just want to connect from A to B via X.


Huh? Excuse me but why would the Munich-Vienna comparison hurt me in any way? I am not Austrian nor am I a shareholder in LH Group. I was merely saying that the two hubs are too close to each other in order for both to thrive. There are just too many LH Group airports in Europe. Vienna and Brussels are excess ones and that is why Austrian Airlines and Vienna have been second rate in the whole groupation.

Add to this the meteoric rise of airlines such as Turkish Airlines and LOT and you get an even more unfavorable situation for OS/VIE. Austrian government is not made of idiots, they realize all this and they know that long-term Vienna's situation is not great. Going ahead a lot of investment has to be made in Austria and LH Group doesn't seem all that interested. I believe things at OS will get worse before they get better. Removing the Q400 with its 78 seats will come back to haunt them as the E95 will be too big for many destinations they fly to. Don't forget that for years OS gave priority to frequency over capacity. Now capacity will be going up so one would expect frequencies to be going down.

Who knows, maybe Lufthansa's plan all along was for OS to discontinue most, if not all, long-haul flights and for them to become a Euro-Mediterranean carrier similar to what Aegean is. I think it would make the most sense. All long-haul passengers can be routed via Munich, Frankfurt and/or Zurich.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 8

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: a350lover, Achtstein, ASMD11, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], deltacto, dstblj52, keesje, louA340, LTEN11, nordify, Noshow, PHXBern, QuawerAir, StTim, Thibault973, tommy1808, undertheradar and 366 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos