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embraer175e2
Topic Author
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Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:12 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 37.article

What are the chances that the old scope clauses are modified for this beautiful and efiicient jet ?
Will it take another 2 years?


Boeing has its stakes in Embraer E2 program.
Does this make the chances bigger for a modification?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:39 pm

Zero for U.S. carriers. Absolutely zero. Pilots' unions will demand to be paid for scope relaxation. Carriers don't have any money to give large raises nor buy an incremental dozens of new widebodies that represent hourly wage step ups for narrowbody pilots. Carriers won't have repaired their finances for years post Covid-19 (well more than two years).
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:42 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Zero for U.S. carriers. Absolutely zero. Pilots' unions will demand to be paid for scope relaxation. Carriers don't have any money to give large raises nor buy an incremental dozens of new widebodies that represent hourly wage step ups for narrowbody pilots. Carriers won't have repaired their finances for years post Covid-19 (well more than two years).


Never say never.

You never know.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:42 pm

Actually this is a very good plane for efficient type social distancing to a certain extent. IMHO.

New planes for anyone are not in the cards right now or the near future.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:55 pm

Scope relaxation has historically happened during periods of bankruptcies or restructurings, I could totally see the COVID crisis as the catalyst for a scope change that allows the E2 a foothold.
 
Raventech
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:17 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Scope relaxation has historically happened during periods of bankruptcies or restructurings, I could totally see the COVID crisis as the catalyst for a scope change that allows the E2 a foothold.


True but...

A) Don't underestimate the unions willingness to burn it down to the ground over this. Maybe its just the A.net bubble but there seems to be a sentiment of pilots giving an inch last time scope relief happened and it resulted in feeling of miles being taken. I would actually count on some unions willing to make scope a red line to the point of the death of the airline especially if management tries to get scope relief after furloughing mainline pilots.

B) Don't overestimate managements willingness to tackle scope relief. E1s and CRJs are not that inefficient and right now they are in survival mode. They don't have the money to buy E2s in the near term and there are likely much lower hanging fruit in terms of saving to be gained than fighting for scope relief. I see it being brought up in the negotiations specifically to be cut (ie. We will take scope relief off the table if you guys agree to X). I don't think the airlines are willing to expend political capital on this issue right now.
 
T4thH
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:23 pm

In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:02 pm

There is no need to modify scope clauses. If mainline managment really wants the 175-E2, they can buy them now, with mainline pilots flying them.

You are more likely to see pay and quality of life contractual changes, should it become necessary, then you will see any scope changes.

The biggest benefit for the company to having it as a mainline flown aircraft is the elimination of any restrictions (seat counts, number of aircraft in fleet, range etc. ). Scope wouldn’t apply.

But given the current economic situation, no one will be buying for a while.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:14 pm

Let's just pretend for a moment that UAL agreed to staff the E2175 with mainline and the union agreed to accept same wages as the regional was going to get....what are the other significant dominos that fall into place that make this an untenable financial situation for the corporation?
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:16 pm

Unions in the US aren’t going to relax scope especially after what happened with airlines taking advantage of scope. See what happened with United once they dumped their 737s for RJs back in last down turn. Unions simply do not trust mainline management in regards to RJ use age and aren’t going to risk mainline jobs in favor of regional jobs.

A lot of folks who want want to see this is plane in fleets flying in the US need to realize this.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:22 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
There is no need to modify scope clauses. If mainline managment really wants the 175-E2, they can buy them now, with mainline pilots flying them.

You are more likely to see pay and quality of life contractual changes, should it become necessary, then you will see any scope changes.

The biggest benefit for the company to having it as a mainline flown aircraft is the elimination of any restrictions (seat counts, number of aircraft in fleet, range etc. ). Scope wouldn’t apply.

But given the current economic situation, no one will be buying for a while.

^^^ this. There is no scope clause that prevents the E175-E2 from flying in the US. There is only a scope clause that prevents it from being outsourced to underpaid pilots at an artificially low wage. Some of the US3 already have pay scales in their contracts for 76 seat sized airplanes. Mainline pilots would welcome the E175-E2 (and E1 for that matter) at the already negotiated and mutually agreed upon pay scales, which are less than other narrow-bodies. With the efficiencies of this plane, added seats to the scope-limited/slightly shorter 76 seat E1, it can hold what around 80-82 seats? The higher pay rates/improved work rules at major airlines would be more than offset by the reduced fuel burn and increased number of seats (as well as the associated in-sourced efficiencies) on a cost/revenue per flight hour basis.

The question needs to be changed from “will scope clauses be relaxed to allow this plane to fly” to “when will the greedy airline management stop outsourcing flying when they can already fly this plane today?”

Further, they could have a fleet of 175/190/195-E2s for various missions for even further optimization and economy of scale (thinking UAL/AA here).
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:24 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
There is no need to modify scope clauses. If mainline managment really wants the 175-E2, they can buy them now, with mainline pilots flying them.

You are more likely to see pay and quality of life contractual changes, should it become necessary, then you will see any scope changes.

The biggest benefit for the company to having it as a mainline flown aircraft is the elimination of any restrictions (seat counts, number of aircraft in fleet, range etc. ). Scope wouldn’t apply.

But given the current economic situation, no one will be buying for a while.


And just move up the pilots and engineers from the smaller regional carriers up to the mainline carriers ?
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:30 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
There is no need to modify scope clauses. If mainline managment really wants the 175-E2, they can buy them now, with mainline pilots flying them.

You are more likely to see pay and quality of life contractual changes, should it become necessary, then you will see any scope changes.

The biggest benefit for the company to having it as a mainline flown aircraft is the elimination of any restrictions (seat counts, number of aircraft in fleet, range etc. ). Scope wouldn’t apply.

But given the current economic situation, no one will be buying for a while.


And just move up the pilots and engineers from the smaller regional carriers up to the mainline carriers ?

That would be the net effect...but no, outside perhaps the wholly-owned subsidiary airlines, new pilots would have to interview and get hired.

But with the likely furloughs coming to mainline, in-sourcing E175/E2 flying would provide more mainline jobs. There used to be flow back agreements at soke airlines, so furloughed pilots at mainline could flow back to their airline’s wholly owned regionals. Those don't exist anymore. This would be a similar furlough mitigation, and good for the industry as a whole, as outsourcing went way too far. It’s time for the pendulum to swing back.
 
airtran737
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:42 pm

As a current 175 pilot, I absolutely hope that the pilots at the majors don't give an inch of scope in order to put them at a regional carrier. If UA, DL, or AA, want them, then they need to be flown by mainline pilots for mainline wages.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:16 pm

airtran737 wrote:
As a current 175 pilot, I absolutely hope that the pilots at the majors don't give an inch of scope in order to put them at a regional carrier. If UA, DL, or AA, want them, then they need to be flown by mainline pilots for mainline wages.


Which are the US based mainline carriers flying the E190's? Except for jetblue who already bought A220's.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:27 pm

Theoretically if you have a pilot fly a 75 seat, 150 seat, and 300 seat aircraft, how much should they be paid?
The same at 200K each? Or per seat,100K, 200K, and 400K? Or some average of the two methods, 150K, 200K, and 300K?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:50 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/embraer-hopes-e175-e2-jet-efficiency-helps-modify-scope-clauses/134837.article

What are the chances that the old scope clauses are modified for this beautiful and efiicient jet ?
Will it take another 2 years?


Boeing has its stakes in Embraer E2 program.
Does this make the chances bigger for a modification?

This "efficient jet" must not be that efficient as it has sold, worldwide, a whooping 0... (the SkyWest order of 100 has always been questionable and is now cancelled).
That alone must say a lot about what the airlines (worldwide) think about the E175-E2.

As a reminder, the E175 sold over 800 copies.
 
ericm2031
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:02 pm

I wonder if the carrier and unions could come to some sort of agreement to maybe trade CR2/ERJ flying for additional E75/E75-E2...something like for every 2 or 3 CR2/ERJ retired they can add an E75. This may not result in more mainline flying, but would at least shrink regional flying considerably. To increase mainline flying, then maybe something on the other end of the spectrum, for every X amount of small narrowbodies added, they could also add an E75...and include a guaranteed minimum of small narrowbodies to be added to ensure those were actually added and just doesn't sit in the contract as an unused pay scale.

And from what I've gathered, some carriers have scope limits on the ratio of RJs vs mainline but some don't. Adding this to those contracts that don't have it, will also guarantee the mainline fleet can't shrink without also affecting the regional fleet.

I feel like there is an agreement to be made...otherwise the airlines have the M100 in their cards. I don't think we'll see an instant jump to mainline flying E75s, but each contract can make baby steps toward that goal. With the right restrictions in place, I think both sides can get something they want out of it.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:10 pm

T4thH wrote:
In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?

Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:18 pm

DenverTed wrote:
Theoretically if you have a pilot fly a 75 seat, 150 seat, and 300 seat aircraft, how much should they be paid?
The same at 200K each? Or per seat,100K, 200K, and 400K? Or some average of the two methods, 150K, 200K, and 300K?


According g to Decision 83, National Labor Board, paid by a formula of speed and weight, roughly number of passengers. It’s been modified and negotiated a million times since 1934, but the formula precedent remains.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/42112

GF
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:36 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/embraer-hopes-e175-e2-jet-efficiency-helps-modify-scope-clauses/134837.article

What are the chances that the old scope clauses are modified for this beautiful and efiicient jet ?
Will it take another 2 years?


Boeing has its stakes in Embraer E2 program.
Does this make the chances bigger for a modification?

This "efficient jet" must not be that efficient as it has sold, worldwide, a whooping 0... (the SkyWest order of 100 has always been questionable and is now cancelled).
That alone must say a lot about what the airlines (worldwide) think about the E175-E2.

As a reminder, the E175 sold over 800 copies.


If we look overseas the chances are very big that KLM will order a few of them within a year or two, for replacement of their current E175's. Also guys like Polish LOT will most probably upgrade there existing fleet of E170's in the future. If not changed we might see the new generation embraer 175 E2's lose a few hundred of sold aircraft on US regional markets.
Last edited by embraer175e2 on Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:49 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Actually this is a very good plane for efficient type social distancing to a certain extent. IMHO.

New planes for anyone are not in the cards right now or the near future.


By the time it is ready for EIS, there should be some sense of clarity of the state of air travel and petroleum prices over the next 5-10 years. That may provide the motivation for airlines to start sales and scope negotiations.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:51 pm

DenverTed wrote:
Theoretically if you have a pilot fly a 75 seat, 150 seat, and 300 seat aircraft, how much should they be paid?
The same at 200K each? Or per seat,100K, 200K, and 400K? Or some average of the two methods, 150K, 200K, and 300K?

A 130 seat A319 and a 200 seat A321 pay roughly (or exactly) the same. Some carriers have a slight override for the 321. Some fleets at some carriers have “family rates” while some have individual aircraft rates. At B6, A320/321 pays the same, as does 190/195/190E2/195E2, but the A221 and A223 have a $10-$20/hr rate difference across the scale. At DL the differences are even less. But then at DL the 75/76 pays the same...except for the 767-400, which pays way more ($38/hr more). But the A332 and A339 are $5/hr difference. Also, the 737/738 pay $10/hr more than a319/A320 at DL. Bottom line is sometimes there are other reasons pay rates are what they are and each fleet/sub fleet can have rates that vary beyond size/speed/etc. and aren’t consistent.

I think family rates, or even same rates for every fleet (a la UPS), is the way to go. I’d be in favor of a single pay rate, or a WB rate and a NB rate. But that’s kind of a different discussion.

The thinking is pay rates are commensurate with the revenue each aircraft brings in. But the reality is how do you split/credit revenue on a multi-segment ticket? If a B6 pilot flies 4 legs a day with 100 pax a leg, thats 400 pax...many of whom connect onto another flight. Then you compare that to a 320/321 pilot who flies 1 leg a day with 159-200 pax. The 190 pilot worked harder, flew more people, and had a longer day, but made less. And the revenue split from the 190 connecting to the 320/321 is hard to split if you’re assigning revenue to each fleet. At the end of the day, flying is flying. I don’t agree with the industry standard bigger=more money, but that’s the way it’s always been.
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:07 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Theoretically if you have a pilot fly a 75 seat, 150 seat, and 300 seat aircraft, how much should they be paid?
The same at 200K each? Or per seat,100K, 200K, and 400K? Or some average of the two methods, 150K, 200K, and 300K?

A 130 seat A319 and a 200 seat A321 pay roughly (or exactly) the same. Some carriers have a slight override for the 321. Some fleets at some carriers have “family rates” while some have individual aircraft rates. At B6, A320/321 pays the same, as does 190/195/190E2/195E2, but the A221 and A223 have a $10-$20/hr rate difference across the scale. At DL the differences are even less. But then at DL the 75/76 pays the same...except for the 767-400, which pays way more ($38/hr more). But the A332 and A339 are $5/hr difference. Also, the 737/738 pay $10/hr more than a319/A320 at DL. Bottom line is sometimes there are other reasons pay rates are what they are and each fleet/sub fleet can have rates that vary beyond size/speed/etc. and aren’t consistent.

I think family rates, or even same rates for every fleet (a la UPS), is the way to go. I’d be in favor of a single pay rate, or a WB rate and a NB rate. But that’s kind of a different discussion.

The thinking is pay rates are commensurate with the revenue each aircraft brings in. But the reality is how do you split/credit revenue on a multi-segment ticket? If a B6 pilot flies 4 legs a day with 100 pax a leg, thats 400 pax...many of whom connect onto another flight. Then you compare that to a 320/321 pilot who flies 1 leg a day with 159-200 pax. The 190 pilot worked harder, flew more people, and had a longer day, but made less. And the revenue split from the 190 connecting to the 320/321 is hard to split if you’re assigning revenue to each fleet. At the end of the day, flying is flying. I don’t agree with the industry standard bigger=more money, but that’s the way it’s always been.


But I am sure you don’t have many B6 pilots flying one leg a day in the A320/A321 unless they are doing a transcon of some sort. There are a lot more factors then just how many legs a crew member flies. Like the distance of the legs (the shorter the distance = more legs higher productivity vs longer legs).
 
Moosefire
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:18 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
As a current 175 pilot, I absolutely hope that the pilots at the majors don't give an inch of scope in order to put them at a regional carrier. If UA, DL, or AA, want them, then they need to be flown by mainline pilots for mainline wages.


Which are the US based mainline carriers flying the E190's? Except for jetblue who already bought A220's.


American Airlines. (At least up till Covid)
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:47 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
This "efficient jet" must not be that efficient as it has sold, worldwide, a whooping 0... (the SkyWest order of 100 has always been questionable and is now cancelled).
As a reminder, the E175 sold over 800 copies.


Wow, I've been living under a rock. I didn't know the SkyWest order had been cancelled. The E2-175 hasn't sold anywhere else? If your assertion is true, this program is deader than the 778.
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:16 pm

Moosefire wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
As a current 175 pilot, I absolutely hope that the pilots at the majors don't give an inch of scope in order to put them at a regional carrier. If UA, DL, or AA, want them, then they need to be flown by mainline pilots for mainline wages.


Which are the US based mainline carriers flying the E190's? Except for jetblue who already bought A220's.


American Airlines. (At least up till Covid)


They could order E175E2 under their mainline AOC.
Last edited by embraer175e2 on Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jagraham
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:16 pm

I'm with Lightsaber, in that the MRJ / Spacejet does not need scope relaxation. How did MRJ get those engines in under the scope limit whereas Embraer is 12000 lb (about 14%) over? But in the end, the E2s do the same things as the E1s except they weigh more and burn less fuel. Not much of a scope relaxation, but airlines have been tripped up over less.

In the end, what if one airline accepts E2-175 as an RJ and can fly regional legs for less cost? (will it be less cost, as fuel is only one component?) Will the other airlines accept less profit? Or find ways to join the bandwagon? Or reallocate such that E1s are on shorter legs which will be less disadvantageous? And there is still the Spacejet which has the same engine technology but is light enough to not need scope relief.

Note also that not much is said about the E195E2 which is a mainline aircraft in the US and the US airlines that have them operate them as mainline aircraft. It competes directly with the A221, which should be an exciting market segment, but . . . crickets?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:25 pm

I will NOT vote to relax scope. in 2008 United pilots spent 5 years on the street so other airlines could fly our passengers.....F that I hope all regionals go away and we hire their pilots to fly mainline jets.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:46 pm

This pandemic may just save the E2. Airlines will have the upper hand over labor.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:51 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
This pandemic may just save the E2. Airlines will have the upper hand over labor.

Negative. Only way E2 flies is if it’s at mainline or a bankruptcy judge tosses scope/CBAs, which I doubt will happen.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:54 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
This pandemic may just save the E2. Airlines will have the upper hand over labor.


Management isn’t even close to having the upper hand. Only in Bankrupt will they have the upper hand. My vote and the vote of 13,000 other pilots is what counts.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:12 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
This pandemic may just save the E2. Airlines will have the upper hand over labor.


Management isn’t even close to having the upper hand. Only in Bankrupt will they have the upper hand. My vote and the vote of 13,000 other pilots is what counts.


It would be awesome to have the E2 at mainline. Why not offer to fly it at a reasonable rate? The union obviously isny bargaining in good faith or you would have it. You can't expect 737/A320 pay for a regional jet.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:15 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
This pandemic may just save the E2. Airlines will have the upper hand over labor.


Management isn’t even close to having the upper hand. Only in Bankrupt will they have the upper hand. My vote and the vote of 13,000 other pilots is what counts.


It would be awesome to have the E2 at mainline. Why not offer to fly it at a reasonable rate? The union obviously isny bargaining in good faith or you would have it. You can't expect 737/A320 pay for a regional jet.


I agree it would be great. What makes you think the Union isn’t bargaining in good faith?

They have their price we have ours We will either meet in the middle or the E2 will never fly in UA colors. Pretty simple.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
This pandemic may just save the E2. Airlines will have the upper hand over labor.


Management isn’t even close to having the upper hand. Only in Bankrupt will they have the upper hand. My vote and the vote of 13,000 other pilots is what counts.


It would be awesome to have the E2 at mainline. Why not offer to fly it at a reasonable rate? The union obviously isny bargaining in good faith or you would have it. You can't expect 737/A320 pay for a regional jet.


All 3 US3 already have CRJ9/E190 rates. AA’s are group 1 rates that cover 77-117 seats. DL has prescribed CRJ9/190 rates (presumably a 175 E2 would fall into that same category being between CRJ9/190 in size). UAL has E190/CRJ9 rates...so same story.

For what it’s worth, those rates are all significantly lower than 737/320, and even significantly lower than 717/A221.

Not that hard of a problem set. But when you can outsource it for even cheaper...why keep it in house? This isn’t a greedy pilot issue. The issue is management wanting to outsource. There is a clear path for them to be flown in house. Rates have basically already been negotiated if they just apply CRJ9/190 rates, which are the same.
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:31 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Management isn’t even close to having the upper hand. Only in Bankrupt will they have the upper hand. My vote and the vote of 13,000 other pilots is what counts.


It would be awesome to have the E2 at mainline. Why not offer to fly it at a reasonable rate? The union obviously isny bargaining in good faith or you would have it. You can't expect 737/A320 pay for a regional jet.


I agree it would be great. What makes you think the Union isn’t bargaining in good faith?

They have their price we have ours We will either meet in the middle or the E2 will never fly in UA colors. Pretty simple.


On top of that UNITED and their pilots already agreed on how additional RJs can be unlocked with their CBA. All UA needs to do is order the CS100 or E195. Also I know there are 76 seater rates in the United CBAs already that are below those of the 737 and buses.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:07 pm

The "sweet spot" for efficiency for the E2 series is the E195E2. Embraer made a decision to compete directly with the A220 (CS1/CS3) and designed accordingly. As a result, they didn't sweat weight budgets and gambled that a scope change would allow the E175E2 to be sold to North American airlines for their regional partners. However, their gamble turned up "snake eyes".

The E175E2 (if not redesigned) might be destined to be even less popular than the A318 and B736, which were also too heavy for their mission profiles. The things that could have gotten considerable weight out of the entire series and made the scope issue moot, such as designing a new CFRP wing and using lighter aluminium alloys to build the fuselages, were left out of the E2 designs to save money.
 
timeless159
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:12 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Management isn’t even close to having the upper hand. Only in Bankrupt will they have the upper hand. My vote and the vote of 13,000 other pilots is what counts.


It would be awesome to have the E2 at mainline. Why not offer to fly it at a reasonable rate? The union obviously isny bargaining in good faith or you would have it. You can't expect 737/A320 pay for a regional jet.


All 3 US3 already have CRJ9/E190 rates. AA’s are group 1 rates that cover 77-117 seats. DL has prescribed CRJ9/190 rates (presumably a 175 E2 would fall into that same category being between CRJ9/190 in size). UAL has E190/CRJ9 rates...so same story.

For what it’s worth, those rates are all significantly lower than 737/320, and even significantly lower than 717/A221.

Not that hard of a problem set. But when you can outsource it for even cheaper...why keep it in house? This isn’t a greedy pilot issue. The issue is management wanting to outsource. There is a clear path for them to be flown in house. Rates have basically already been negotiated if they just apply CRJ9/190 rates, which are the same.



Exactly!! If the E175-E2 is so amazing, it should be profitable with mainline flightcrew.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:33 pm

So? Exactly whom In ALPA implied that might happen? does the airplane FIT the mold under the scope clause? Because if Not? You're spitting into the wind. Why would ALPA even do that? The E175-E2 can fly mainline routes, And the E175 is flying regional routes as we speak. ALPA has already said they have a pay scale for the them nor AlliedE-175 to fly in Mainline service So? Why in Hell would they back off of that? But? You already KNOW they won't ! So? Are you going somewhere with this? , OR? Are you just running LAPS? I'll bet good money you haven't and Won't take this before the MEC at ALPA in the USA Them nor Allied, and not even the Teamsters have you? I didn't think so.
 
flyby519
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:11 am

In addition to many points above, the domestic market will be super important in coming years as leisure and domestic is likely to come back before international widebody type flying. Also what will bankruptcy hope to accomplish (except slashing debt and employees)? This isn't a cost problem, it is a lack of demand problem. Offering $20 tickets across the country still isn't getting people to fly.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:46 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

Which are the US based mainline carriers flying the E190's? Except for jetblue who already bought A220's.


American Airlines. (At least up till Covid)


They could order E175E2 under their mainline AOC.


Doubtful, they were inherited out of U.S. Airways and seemed to me that AA never really cared for them but simply tolerated them and just tried to get them out of the fleet after a while.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:53 am

lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?

Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


The MRJ100 has been delayed for many years and who knows when EIS will occur. Surprised at Mitsubishi for dropping the ball so many times.
 
Jetport
Posts: 127
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:12 am

It's either accept the E175-E2 under scope or continue to have the E175-E1.5 as the only option. Even with the economics of the E175-E2 there is no way the thin routes most 76 seat planes fly can support mainline pilot pay packages. The pilot's unions apparently have no problem forcing airlines to burn more fuel than needed or telling folks like me who fly out of smaller airports (PWM in my case) that we have to accept significantly reduced frequency so they can kill off the regional carriers.

The Mitsubishi MRJ/Spacejet is a joke, if it ever flies in commercial service I would bet money the currently available E175-E1.5 will still be a lower cost plane to operate.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:15 am

bigb wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

It would be awesome to have the E2 at mainline. Why not offer to fly it at a reasonable rate? The union obviously isny bargaining in good faith or you would have it. You can't expect 737/A320 pay for a regional jet.


I agree it would be great. What makes you think the Union isn’t bargaining in good faith?

They have their price we have ours We will either meet in the middle or the E2 will never fly in UA colors. Pretty simple.


On top of that UNITED and their pilots already agreed on how additional RJs can be unlocked with their CBA. All UA needs to do is order the CS100 or E195. Also I know there are 76 seater rates in the United CBAs already that are below those of the 737 and buses.


You are half way correct the reason the E2 will never be at a regional is because it is too heavy per scope.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:17 am

Jetport wrote:
It's either accept the E175-E2 under scope or continue to have the E175-E1.5 as the only option. Even with the economics of the E175-E2 there is no way the thin routes most 76 seat planes fly can support mainline pilot pay packages. The pilot's unions apparently have no problem forcing airlines to burn more fuel than needed or telling folks like me who fly out of smaller airports (PWM in my case) that we have to accept significantly reduced frequency so they can kill off the regional carriers.

The Mitsubishi MRJ/Spacejet is a joke, if it ever flies in commercial service I would bet money the currently available E175-E1.5 will still be a lower cost plane to operate.


That’s patently false. The pilots’ unions aren’t forcing airlines to do anything...the E2 can be flown profitably (in non-covid times) at mainline. $100-$150/hr of extra crew costs and mainline benefits won’t affect the viability of the airplane.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:26 am

airlineworker wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?

Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


The MRJ100 has been delayed for many years and who knows when EIS will occur. Surprised at Mitsubishi for dropping the ball so many times.

They are being persistent. The M100 is a newer model, it is the M90 that is very delayed.

But that isn't the point. The issue is if the M100 enters service, that means a very efficient long range jet at the RJ partners if the E2-175 is accommodated.

It doesn't matter how much we here think of the alternative viability, the issue is there will be an alternative. So I believe scope will not be negotiated away.

The E2-175 is missing the largest market.
When I look at airfleets 788 active E-170/175 plus 1429 CRJs (all sizes).

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e170.htm
of the E-170/175
Republic: 211
SkyWest:159
Envoy: 73
Mesa: 60
Compass: 33 (planes moving)
Horizon: 30 (Not scope limited)
Expressjet: 25

Largest non US is Sky Regional: 25 (AC regional/I assume some scope limit, but since I fo not know details, I will not include as scope limited).

Or 561 scope limited in US or 71% of the E-170/175 active fleet.

Unless Embraer hits a home run replacing non-US CRJ-700/900, economy of scale cannot happen without complying with scope.

With the MRJ out there, it will make selling tough untill 300+ of the E2-175 are sold.

The hope for the E2 family is the E2-195.

Unfortunately, selling season is called off.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:34 am

Bringing the 175 to mainline will require coordination between all three legacy carriers. The higher operating costs will be significant and if one of them budges, it won’t work out for the others.

And it’s just not pilot pay that’s a lot higher at the legacy. It’s also benefit costs, lower productivity contracts that raises unit costs, etc.

Not to mention, all of the above is also true (more expensive at legacy) for flight attendants, dispatchers, mechanics.

I would like to see it happen but it’s not easy to make it happen. Without coordination between the three pilot groups, I don’t see it happening unless a pilot union agrees to special contractual carve outs and lower pay for this specific fleet and for the sake of ending outsourcing of 175s.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 104
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:46 am

lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?

Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


Giving up or relaxing scope doesn’t save mainline jobs. It does the exact opposite.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:34 am

EssentialBusDC wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?

Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


Giving up or relaxing scope doesn’t save mainline jobs. It does the exact opposite.

Exactly. So what would airlines give up to preserve mainline jobs to be of worth to allow E2-175s? I cannot think of anything.

I couldn't package it so that it wouldn't be a long term loss for the pilots, so I cannot see it happening.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 639
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:52 am

EssentialBusDC wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
In regular times, it will not have been changed as now one was willed, to make any step back. But now, with Coronavirus pandemic...who knows.

But there is also the question, why someone shall change the scope clauses now? Has something changed, that there is now the need to change the scope clauses?

Fuel prices are down, so a new more efficient jet will have only a small benefit. Many scope clause conform jets are now stored, so no one is forced to buy new jets, as there are no available, additional the number of the scope clause conform jets are often connected to the number of jets in the main airline. Reduction of the number of jets in the main airlines will be seen in the main airlines after end of this crisis, so the number of scope clause jets will shrink e.g.

I do not see any benefit for any of both sites (airlines and unions), to change the scope clauses now. Perhaps someone else does see it now in Anet?

Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


Giving up or relaxing scope doesn’t save mainline jobs. It does the exact opposite.


Exactly!! These people are so emotional about the issue they’re not seeing the big picture.

There should be a limit. Allowing the E2-175 or MRJ (original size) is not going to decrease mainline opportunities. If anything, the first group that allows it will benefit as the airline itself will grow and have additional demand.
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