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JoseSalazar
Posts: 230
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:11 am

Okcflyer wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


Giving up or relaxing scope doesn’t save mainline jobs. It does the exact opposite.


Exactly!! These people are so emotional about the issue they’re not seeing the big picture.

There should be a limit. Allowing the E2-175 or MRJ (original size) is not going to decrease mainline opportunities. If anything, the first group that allows it will benefit as the airline itself will grow and have additional demand.


I don’t think you correctly read the post to which you replied. And no, giving up scope is a bad idea and won’t happen. I think it’s you who doesn’t see the big picture. It’s not emotional. It’s business. No reason for eagle/express/connection to be painted on an E175-E2. No reason mainline can‘t fly it.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:30 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/embraer-hopes-e175-e2-jet-efficiency-helps-modify-scope-clauses/134837.article

What are the chances that the old scope clauses are modified for this beautiful and efiicient jet ?
Will it take another 2 years?


Boeing has its stakes in Embraer E2 program.
Does this make the chances bigger for a modification?

This "efficient jet" must not be that efficient as it has sold, worldwide, a whooping 0... (the SkyWest order of 100 has always been questionable and is now cancelled).
That alone must say a lot about what the airlines (worldwide) think about the E175-E2.

As a reminder, the E175 sold over 800 copies.


If we look overseas the chances are very big that KLM will order a few of them within a year or two, for replacement of their current E175's. Also guys like Polish LOT will most probably upgrade there existing fleet of E170's in the future. If not changed we might see the new generation embraer 175 E2's lose a few hundred of sold aircraft on US regional markets.

The E2 has been available for sale for almost 7 years now (program launched at the 2013 PAS); it is amazing that no one besides SkyWest has ordered the E175-E2 if it was so compelling.

There is something more to this model than airlines who wants to replace their E175s; the numbers must not line up correctly for the airlines.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:32 am

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
This "efficient jet" must not be that efficient as it has sold, worldwide, a whooping 0... (the SkyWest order of 100 has always been questionable and is now cancelled).
As a reminder, the E175 sold over 800 copies.


Wow, I've been living under a rock. I didn't know the SkyWest order had been cancelled. The E2-175 hasn't sold anywhere else? If your assertion is true, this program is deader than the 778.

Yup. Only E175-E2 order ever recorded. Order placed on June 17, 2013, officially cancelled in late October 2018.
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:57 am

There is no firm order for E175-E2 as yet.

It is now in flight test and if everything goes as expected it will obtain its type certificate in 2021, earlier than the SpaceJet M90 ( Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation).

In reality the choice for regional jet is quite limited, but the market is also limited.
 
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par13del
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:14 pm

So has the purported pilot shortage has been corrected for at least the next few years?
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:23 pm

par13del wrote:
So has the purported pilot shortage has been corrected for at least the next few years?


Damn! You are right.

There's no more pilot shortage any more.

I will try to start a thread.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1767
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:27 pm

VV wrote:
There is no firm order for E175-E2 as yet.

It is now in flight test and if everything goes as expected it will obtain its type certificate in 2021, earlier than the SpaceJet M90 ( Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation).

In reality the choice for regional jet is quite limited, but the market is also limited.

That is somewhat incorrect.
There was an order for 100 E175-E2s (SkyWest), that got cancelled. It has since been cancelled altogether.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:29 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


Giving up or relaxing scope doesn’t save mainline jobs. It does the exact opposite.


Exactly!! These people are so emotional about the issue they’re not seeing the big picture.

There should be a limit. Allowing the E2-175 or MRJ (original size) is not going to decrease mainline opportunities. If anything, the first group that allows it will benefit as the airline itself will grow and have additional demand.


Any airplane not flown by mainline pilots decreases mainline opportunities.
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:21 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
VV wrote:
There is no firm order for E175-E2 as yet.

It is now in flight test and if everything goes as expected it will obtain its type certificate in 2021, earlier than the SpaceJet M90 ( Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation).

In reality the choice for regional jet is quite limited, but the market is also limited.

That is somewhat incorrect.
There was an order for 100 E175-E2s (SkyWest), that got cancelled. It has since been cancelled altogether.


The order was never firm. It was conditional.
Thus it was removed from the order book by Embraer.
 
whywhytee
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:27 pm

Why can regionals operate the E175 but not the E175-E2?
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:32 pm

lightsaber wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Good points.

The mainline airlines are about to furlough a chunk of pilots. The pilots might give up something to keep jobs, they will have an allergy to losing more jobs.

As you note, the number if allowed RJs are tied to the number of parent airline jets. So now there is surplus.

The other wrench is the MRJ100. With a scope compliant aircraft on the horizon, why would anyone give up anything? Now, EIS will slip from 2023, but how much range will the pilots allow?

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/evolv ... -spacejet/

The 1910nm range is for a too high MTOW. If scope is maintained, the M100 remains a true regional jet. Grow scope and it flies further.

Lightsaber


Giving up or relaxing scope doesn’t save mainline jobs. It does the exact opposite.

Exactly. So what would airlines give up to preserve mainline jobs to be of worth to allow E2-175s? I cannot think of anything.

I couldn't package it so that it wouldn't be a long term loss for the pilots, so I cannot see it happening.

Lightsaber


Ok. I misinterpreted your wording.

Lessons learned the hard way over the past 20 years will make it extremely difficult, if not impossible to change scope, even in fiscally challenging times.
 
tvh
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:55 pm

whywhytee wrote:
Why can regionals operate the E175 but not the E175-E2?

MTOW is to high
 
strfyr51
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:20 pm

Raventech wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
Scope relaxation has historically happened during periods of bankruptcies or restructurings, I could totally see the COVID crisis as the catalyst for a scope change that allows the E2 a foothold.


True but...

A) Don't underestimate the unions willingness to burn it down to the ground over this. Maybe its just the A.net bubble but there seems to be a sentiment of pilots giving an inch last time scope relief happened and it resulted in feeling of miles being taken. I would actually count on some unions willing to make scope a red line to the point of the death of the airline especially if management tries to get scope relief after furloughing mainline pilots.

B) Don't overestimate managements willingness to tackle scope relief. E1s and CRJs are not that inefficient and right now they are in survival mode. They don't have the money to buy E2s in the near term and there are likely much lower hanging fruit in terms of saving to be gained than fighting for scope relief. I see it being brought up in the negotiations specifically to be cut (ie. We will take scope relief off the table if you guys agree to X). I don't think the airlines are willing to expend political capital on this issue right now.

while some might say this is a good Idea? Keep this in Mind. Most of the E170's and E175's are OWNED by the Airline who's colors are on the side of the Airplane. And the Majors will INVITE a strike and turmoil? For whom? And for what?? right tomorrow the majors could bring their flying in house take back those Airplanes and fly them themselves. An d Deeper still? Offer all the pilot's jobs at theMajor. They'd wipe out most regional flying at the drop of a HAT.
Have you REALLY given this any thought? you're messing with stuff you know Nothing about. Or stuff you don't Care about. OR? You're an agitator. But I'll bet one thing for sure, You're not a Line Pilot at any Major..
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:25 pm

VV wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
VV wrote:
There is no firm order for E175-E2 as yet.

It is now in flight test and if everything goes as expected it will obtain its type certificate in 2021, earlier than the SpaceJet M90 ( Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation).

In reality the choice for regional jet is quite limited, but the market is also limited.

That is somewhat incorrect.
There was an order for 100 E175-E2s (SkyWest), that got cancelled. It has since been cancelled altogether.


The order was never firm. It was conditional.
Thus it was removed from the order book by Embraer.

From Embraer themselves, dated June 17, 2013:
Paris, France, June 17th, 2013 – Embraer S.A. (NYSE: ERJ; BM & FBOVESPA: EMBR3) and SkyWest Inc. (SkyWest) signed a firm order for 100 E175-E2 aircraft, with another 100 Purchase Rights, bringing the total potential of the order to 200 aircraft. The announcement was made today at a press conference at the 50th International Paris Air Show. If all the orders are exercised, the contract has an estimated value, at list price, of USD 9.36 billion.

Bolding mine.

Take it for what you want, but Embraer called it "firm order"; I think they must have known a thing or two about that order...
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:31 pm

DenverTed wrote:
Theoretically if you have a pilot fly a 75 seat, 150 seat, and 300 seat aircraft, how much should they be paid?
The same at 200K each? Or per seat,100K, 200K, and 400K? Or some average of the two methods, 150K, 200K, and 300K?


Thats a damn good point. I am a train engineer in Germany. We (all the train engineers in any company) all get around the same payment, regardless whether you drive regional trains, high speed trains or freight trains. Because: at the end they all do the same job.
This is the same with regional and mainline pilots IMO. I think its even harder being a regional pilot because of a much higher amount of takeoffs/landings a day. Thats just what I think, I could be completely wrong of course.
My Instagram Account: Instagram
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:07 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I think its even harder being a regional pilot because of a much higher amount of takeoffs/landings a day. Thats just what I think, I could be completely wrong of course.


I always thought that as well.... An ERJ-145 pilot flying multiple 400nm legs is under much more stress throughout the day when compared to a 737-800 pilot flying 4 1000nm legs. He has more takeoff/landing cycles, he's flying in the weather more, there is less support staff available to the pilots (flight attendants), etc... But, I'm not a pilot, so that's just my laymen's opinion....

How is the flight software in the E2 series? Does it include significant enhancements that aide the pilots?
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
Raventech
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Raventech wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
Scope relaxation has historically happened during periods of bankruptcies or restructurings, I could totally see the COVID crisis as the catalyst for a scope change that allows the E2 a foothold.


True but...

A) Don't underestimate the unions willingness to burn it down to the ground over this. Maybe its just the A.net bubble but there seems to be a sentiment of pilots giving an inch last time scope relief happened and it resulted in feeling of miles being taken. I would actually count on some unions willing to make scope a red line to the point of the death of the airline especially if management tries to get scope relief after furloughing mainline pilots.

B) Don't overestimate managements willingness to tackle scope relief. E1s and CRJs are not that inefficient and right now they are in survival mode. They don't have the money to buy E2s in the near term and there are likely much lower hanging fruit in terms of saving to be gained than fighting for scope relief. I see it being brought up in the negotiations specifically to be cut (ie. We will take scope relief off the table if you guys agree to X). I don't think the airlines are willing to expend political capital on this issue right now.


while some might say this is a good Idea? Keep this in Mind. Most of the E170's and E175's are OWNED by the Airline who's colors are on the side of the Airplane. And the Majors will INVITE a strike and turmoil? For whom? And for what?? right tomorrow the majors could bring their flying in house take back those Airplanes and fly them themselves. An d Deeper still? Offer all the pilot's jobs at theMajor. They'd wipe out most regional flying at the drop of a HAT.
Have you REALLY given this any thought? you're messing with stuff you know Nothing about. Or stuff you don't Care about. OR? You're an agitator. But I'll bet one thing for sure, You're not a Line Pilot at any Major..


I'm a little confused, is there a misquote or did I miss something as I think we largely agree. For the record my points were the mainline unions will fight it tooth and nail and I doubt the management at the US3 have desire to engage in the trench warfare needed to relax scope.
 
Dmoney
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:27 pm

It's the usual clash between capital and Labour, I've no idea why anyone would expect Labour to be a bunch of softcocks and Give a concession to capital. If equity gets wiped out in the crisis it doesn't have any effect on the structure of the market.
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:33 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
VV wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That is somewhat incorrect.
There was an order for 100 E175-E2s (SkyWest), that got cancelled. It has since been cancelled altogether.


The order was never firm. It was conditional.
Thus it was removed from the order book by Embraer.

From Embraer themselves, dated June 17, 2013:
Paris, France, June 17th, 2013 – Embraer S.A. (NYSE: ERJ; BM & FBOVESPA: EMBR3) and SkyWest Inc. (SkyWest) signed a firm order for 100 E175-E2 aircraft, with another 100 Purchase Rights, bringing the total potential of the order to 200 aircraft. The announcement was made today at a press conference at the 50th International Paris Air Show. If all the orders are exercised, the contract has an estimated value, at list price, of USD 9.36 billion.

Bolding mine.

Take it for what you want, but Embraer called it "firm order"; I think they must have known a thing or two about that order...


Yes, "firm" order under the condition the scope clause is relaxed. That's not really firm.

Embraer removed it from the order book, although the conditions of "order" have not changed.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... e2-backlog
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:09 pm

Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:15 pm

airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


Because the scope clauses in the collective agreements say so. It's basically contractual but those contracts are very hard negotiated.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:23 pm

airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:28 pm

DLHAM wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Theoretically if you have a pilot fly a 75 seat, 150 seat, and 300 seat aircraft, how much should they be paid?
The same at 200K each? Or per seat,100K, 200K, and 400K? Or some average of the two methods, 150K, 200K, and 300K?


Thats a damn good point. I am a train engineer in Germany. We (all the train engineers in any company) all get around the same payment, regardless whether you drive regional trains, high speed trains or freight trains. Because: at the end they all do the same job.
This is the same with regional and mainline pilots IMO. I think its even harder being a regional pilot because of a much higher amount of takeoffs/landings a day. Thats just what I think, I could be completely wrong of course.


Pilot pay rates are based on the revenue they generate. Iv seen a chart, it’s most likely outdated, that shows the pay rate for all aircraft on a linear scale based on revenue generated for the company. Therefore the bigger the plane the better the pay.

Whether or not it’s the best model? That’s up for debate. Personally I would prefer one pay rate for the entire airline with a 20-30 year top out. This would allow me to not commute to fly intl. I’m tired of intl but want the pay check. I’m senior enough I could fly the Airbus and do day trips and be home every night.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:39 pm

On why the E1-175 is allowed at regionals and not the E2-175.

Scope limits to a maximum of 76 passengers and a MTOW of 86,000 lb.

The E2 stretched the body adding weight.
The E2 improved the wing, but that added weight
The E2 improved subsystems, minir weight gain (e.g., cabin pressurization).
The new PW1700G engines are significantly heavier than the CF-34-8 engines.

We fo not know the E2-175 empty weight, but going from Wikipedia, The E2-190 empty weight of 72,752 lb vs. E1-190 of 61,370 lb, or a gain of 11,382 lb in weight that improves efficiency and maintenance.

I calculate the E1-175 could take off with ~18,750 lb of fuel. I estimate that was a usable range of 1700nm with reserves.

The E2-175 will, due to the 86,000lb maximum weight limit, will not have even half the fuel of the E1-175. At 98,767 lb takeoff weight it has a range of 2,017 nm (probably) more, with what I calculate are volumed out fuel tanks. With 76 passengers and 86,000lb max takeoff weight, I calculate about a 700 nm range with reserves.

That means a range circle of 400 to 500nm for mission planning or about 1,000nm less than the E1-175.

northstardc4m wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


Because the scope clauses in the collective agreements say so. It's basically contractual but those contracts are very hard negotiated.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

So could the outsourced airlines opperate a Concorde replacement limited to 76 seats JFK-LHR?

Scope is worded as negotiated by both sides. Airlines want the most flexibility. Pilots really want to prevent what they see as the perogative of mainline from going bout of house. There are also other unions such as FA or ground handling who have inputs.

Instead of looking st scope clauses through today's prism, let's go back in time, to 2012:
Contentious negotiations at AA to finally allow > 50 seaters. In order to protect jobs, the pilots agreed, but added conditions. Now this link doesn't include the MTOW, but it was put in to reduce range of RJs
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_2265201

Scope is kicking in now to preserve mainline jobs, so you had better believe pilots will fight for it:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... e-kicks-in

Airlines, by my math, could fly E2-175s, but on such a limited subset of missions, no one will buy.

Lightsaber
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Jetport
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:58 pm

The decision here is not mainline vs regional, it is E1.5-175 vs E2-175. Mainline pilots and FA's are just too expensive (salary, work rules and benefits, including very lucrative pensions) to fly 76 seat aircraft. Even at 99 seats mainline crews are too expensive, the financially disastrous tenure of the E1-190's at US Airways/American proved this conclusively. Therefore, by refusing to relax scope for the E2-175, pilots unions are forcing airlines to buy less efficient aircraft (E1.5-175) and waste fuel and money. This hurts the entire airline, including mainline pilots. Having dealt with unions before, I have unfortunately seen this lose-lose/cut off you nose to spite your face behavior many times.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:00 pm

Jetport wrote:
The decision here is not mainline vs regional, it is E1.5-175 vs E2-175. Mainline pilots and FA's are just too expensive (salary, work rules and benefits, including very lucrative pensions) to fly 76 seat aircraft. Even at 99 seats mainline crews are too expensive, the financially disastrous tenure of the E1-190's at US Airways/American proved this conclusively. Therefore, by refusing to relax scope for the E2-175, pilots unions are forcing airlines to buy less efficient aircraft (E1.5-175) and waste fuel and money. This hurts the entire airline, including mainline pilots. Having dealt with unions before, I have unfortunately seen this lose-lose/cut off you nose to spite your face behavior many times.


Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?
 
Jetport
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:09 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Jetport wrote:
The decision here is not mainline vs regional, it is E1.5-175 vs E2-175. Mainline pilots and FA's are just too expensive (salary, work rules and benefits, including very lucrative pensions) to fly 76 seat aircraft. Even at 99 seats mainline crews are too expensive, the financially disastrous tenure of the E1-190's at US Airways/American proved this conclusively. Therefore, by refusing to relax scope for the E2-175, pilots unions are forcing airlines to buy less efficient aircraft (E1.5-175) and waste fuel and money. This hurts the entire airline, including mainline pilots. Having dealt with unions before, I have unfortunately seen this lose-lose/cut off you nose to spite your face behavior many times.


Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?


Having 10 and 11 more seats respectively for A220 and 717 makes a significant difference. Add in smoking hot purchase/lease deals (both aircraft) and more efficient aircraft (CS-100) and Delta apparently can make it work. There is no way it works with a 76 seater vs. 109 or 110 seats.
 
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par13del
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:21 pm

tvh wrote:
whywhytee wrote:
Why can regionals operate the E175 but not the E175-E2?

MTOW is to high

At the top level, they are not true regional's, they are not independent carriers, they are contractually tied to mainline carriers who get to set the number and type of a/c they can operate.
Indeed, some even fly a/c owned by the mainline carriers, its just an offshoot of the failure of the carrier within a carrier that failed to reduce operating cost, so no Ted and Song.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:24 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?


It can't be argued conclusively, but on balance of evidence.

Other than seat count I would point to labor $ productivity of DL vs. AA and UA, perhaps in part by virtue of DL's lower unionization rate. But it's clear DL sees more total revenue $ per employee - not just vs. AA and UA but every other U.S. carrier.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?


It can't be argued conclusively, but on balance of evidence.

Other than seat count I would point to labor $ productivity of DL vs. AA and UA, perhaps in part by virtue of DL's lower unionization rate. But it's clear DL sees more total revenue $ per employee - not just vs. AA and UA but every other U.S. carrier.

It needs to be remembered that Delta negotiated more large (76 seat, 86,000 lb) regional jets as part of the agreement to bring in the 717 (and not reduce other flying).

It was a deal, bring in 88 717s and you can fly 50 more 76 RJs (but the total quantity of alliwed RJs stopped going up).

The CS100 expands that. I agree cheap purchase/lease enabled Delta to bring in the 717/CS100, but improving the RJ economics was part of the business case.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vision-7 ... gic-miller

Jetport wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Jetport wrote:
The decision here is not mainline vs regional, it is E1.5-175 vs E2-175. Mainline pilots and FA's are just too expensive (salary, work rules and benefits, including very lucrative pensions) to fly 76 seat aircraft. Even at 99 seats mainline crews are too expensive, the financially disastrous tenure of the E1-190's at US Airways/American proved this conclusively. Therefore, by refusing to relax scope for the E2-175, pilots unions are forcing airlines to buy less efficient aircraft (E1.5-175) and waste fuel and money. This hurts the entire airline, including mainline pilots. Having dealt with unions before, I have unfortunately seen this lose-lose/cut off you nose to spite your face behavior many times.


Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?


Having 10 and 11 more seats respectively for A220 and 717 makes a significant difference. Add in smoking hot purchase/lease deals (both aircraft) and more efficient aircraft (CS-100) and Delta apparently can make it work. There is no way it works with a 76 seater vs. 109 or 110 seats.

109 seats versus 76 is a tremendous difference in revenue. Having 43% more seats bridges the business case. As these planes have a first class, in effect bgreat service fir the front and diluted costs for the back.

Which brings us back to reality.
E2-175 has sold none
E2-190 has sold 27 (11 delivered)
R2-195 has sold 137 (7 delivered)

A221 has sold 94 examples (40 delivered)
A223 has sold 548 (73 delivered).

So far, the economics are saying larger is better.

The E2-175 has several chances.
Aeromexico
https://airlinerwatch.com/aeromexico-to ... nal-fleet/
TAP Portugal ?

But who will risk being the launch customer?

Lightsaber
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alasizon
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:54 pm

Jetport wrote:
The decision here is not mainline vs regional, it is E1.5-175 vs E2-175. Mainline pilots and FA's are just too expensive (salary, work rules and benefits, including very lucrative pensions) to fly 76 seat aircraft. Even at 99 seats mainline crews are too expensive, the financially disastrous tenure of the E1-190's at US Airways/American proved this conclusively. Therefore, by refusing to relax scope for the E2-175, pilots unions are forcing airlines to buy less efficient aircraft (E1.5-175) and waste fuel and money. This hurts the entire airline, including mainline pilots. Having dealt with unions before, I have unfortunately seen this lose-lose/cut off you nose to spite your face behavior many times.


The cost issue is not the pilots and FAs but rather all the other support staff that come along with mainline flying. The ramp agents, gate agents, load planners, dispatchers, etc. If the airlines could figure out how to label it as Express/Regional/Connection using only Mainline FAs and pilots but everyone else being Express/Regional/Connection employees; they would.
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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:19 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
This "efficient jet" must not be that efficient as it has sold, worldwide, a whooping 0... (the SkyWest order of 100 has always been questionable and is now cancelled).
That alone must say a lot about what the airlines (worldwide) think about the E175-E2.

As a reminder, the E175 sold over 800 copies.


If we look overseas the chances are very big that KLM will order a few of them within a year or two, for replacement of their current E175's. Also guys like Polish LOT will most probably upgrade there existing fleet of E170's in the future. If not changed we might see the new generation embraer 175 E2's lose a few hundred of sold aircraft on US regional markets.

The E2 has been available for sale for almost 7 years now (program launched at the 2013 PAS); it is amazing that no one besides SkyWest has ordered the E175-E2 if it was so compelling.

There is something more to this model than airlines who wants to replace their E175s; the numbers must not line up correctly for the airlines.


Interesting what the future is holding for this model. Compared to the 190 and 195 e2 this is the only model which is not in of the manufacturing line yet. Still years to go. Maybe this also has some influence on its sales?
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:24 pm

Jetport wrote:
The decision here is not mainline vs regional, it is E1.5-175 vs E2-175. Mainline pilots and FA's are just too expensive (salary, work rules and benefits, including very lucrative pensions) to fly 76 seat aircraft. Even at 99 seats mainline crews are too expensive, the financially disastrous tenure of the E1-190's at US Airways/American proved this conclusively. Therefore, by refusing to relax scope for the E2-175, pilots unions are forcing airlines to buy less efficient aircraft (E1.5-175) and waste fuel and money. This hurts the entire airline, including mainline pilots. Having dealt with unions before, I have unfortunately seen this lose-lose/cut off you nose to spite your face behavior many times.



You viewpoint is based on some out date data.. as in a decade+ old. No US major that would bring flying the 175E2 to mainline has a pension that is active. So that’s a cost not relevant in your assumption.

Any scope seat or aircraft limits are removed by being a mainline aircraft. So a 76 seat scope compliant airframe becomes a 80+ seat airframe and changes the revenue equation. Also factor in the need to no longer fund profits for a third party via cost+ agreement. Using United as a example, they already own a significant chunk of the regional aircraft, they already use mainline employees at the gate and below wing in the hubs, and pay for the fuel, landing fees and other costs of the RJ. So it’s just the onboard crew and maintenance (the costs of which is already paid for via the cost+ regional CPA’s)

The higher efficiency of the E2 that you tout so much plus the extra revenue available from a normal seating configuration should offset the marginally higher cost of labor (but only some labor since a lot of mainline labor is already working the Express flights in various departments)

And management doesn’t cut off their nose in spite? :roll:
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:50 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.


I can't imagine any airline flying a 757 with 76 seats, fuel and maintenance costs would wipe out any profit. The E-2 175 is basically the same as the E-175. If both sides would offer some give and take this issue could be resolved. Unions at Eastern held firm and in the end, Eastern was gone. I'm not promoting one side over the other, but both mainline and regionals need to work together.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:54 pm

airlineworker wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.


I can't imagine any airline flying a 757 with 76 seats, fuel and maintenance costs would wipe out any profit. The E-2 175 is basically the same as the E-175. If both sides would offer some give and take this issue could be resolved. Unions at Eastern held firm and in the end, Eastern was gone. I'm not promoting one side over the other, but both mainline and regionals need to work together.


Regional crews want nothing to do with flying a 175-E2. It should be at mainline.
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PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:20 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Iv seen a chart, it’s most likely outdated, that shows the pay rate for all aircraft on a linear scale based on revenue generated for the company.


A linear scale on what is likely a non-linear world.
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FlyMKG
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It needs to be remembered that Delta negotiated more large (76 seat, 86,000 lb) regional jets as part of the agreement to bring in the 717 (and not reduce other flying).

It was a deal, bring in 88 717s and you can fly 50 more 76 RJs (but the total quantity of alliwed RJs stopped going up).

The CS100 expands that. I agree cheap purchase/lease enabled Delta to bring in the 717/CS100, but improving the RJ economics was part of the business case.



With Compass Airlines shutting down, there is no more flow down protection offered to Delta pilots. The amount of 76 seat aircraft actually needs to be decreased by 35 frames per the contract unless another DCI carrier agrees to a flow down. Delta is required to remove 76 seat jets. They are in no position to add more.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:43 pm

Also, my understanding is that pilot pay is based on MTOW and not payload.

MTOW is not revenue. Payload is.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:48 pm

I wonder why Alaska, which supposedly does not have the 86K lb. scope limit restriction for their Horizon operations, has been ordering E175E1's, rather than E2's? Perhaps the efficiency gain does not offset the capital costs?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:17 am

airlineworker wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.


I can't imagine any airline flying a 757 with 76 seats, fuel and maintenance costs would wipe out any profit. The E-2 175 is basically the same as the E-175. If both sides would offer some give and take this issue could be resolved. Unions at Eastern held firm and in the end, Eastern was gone. I'm not promoting one side over the other, but both mainline and regionals need to work together.


How many seats are on those air France and BA 319s that fly across the Atlantic in all business config?

A line has to be drawn or it will be exploited.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:19 am

airlineworker wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.


I can't imagine any airline flying a 757 with 76 seats, fuel and maintenance costs would wipe out any profit. The E-2 175 is basically the same as the E-175. If both sides would offer some give and take this issue could be resolved. Unions at Eastern held firm and in the end, Eastern was gone. I'm not promoting one side over the other, but both mainline and regionals need to work together.

Unions and management have already have worked together when they negotiated CRJ9 rates at mainline (before the E175-E2 was a thing) and the unions would likely be happy to just apply those CRJ9/E190 rates to E175-E2s as well. The union doesn’t control aircraft purchases at airlines. Airline management does. All the union does is negotiate pay rates...which they’ve done, as well as ensure more jobs than already are don’t get outsourced to artificially low paid pilots. Mainline owns most of the E175 airframes flying in their system anyway, except for most of those owned by SkyWest.

Looking back further in history, the unions already gave when scope was initially relaxed. A lot of mainline jobs were lost and not replaced with the proliferation of RJs. Then the goalposts moved even more in favor of more/larger RJs. Finally unions wised up and decided enough was enough. There is no reason this flying should be outsourced. It’s a modern day B scale (but actually worse). The majority of those pilots at mainline that vote on scope have lost many years being stuck at regionals longer or watched their job get sold to the lowest bidder flying an RJ. There is no more giving. Mainline pilots have given enough over the years. I don’t know of any who will vote for a relaxation of scope, even with the threat of furloughs.

Again, no reason an E2 can’t be flown at mainline. The idea of an 80 seater having to be outsourced to be viable is laughable.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:32 am

PPVRA wrote:
Also, my understanding is that pilot pay is based on MTOW and not payload.

MTOW is not revenue. Payload is.


Speed and weight, only loosely related to revenue.

GF
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:44 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/embraer-hopes-e175-e2-jet-efficiency-helps-modify-scope-clauses/134837.article

What are the chances that the old scope clauses are modified for this beautiful and efiicient jet ?
Will it take another 2 years?


Boeing has its stakes in Embraer E2 program.
Does this make the chances bigger for a modification?


Airlines could buy it and start training their pilots to fly it on the mainline tomorrow.

COVID hurts but the pilots have been down the scope road too many times. The youngins are now about to experience their first furloughs and adversity. They won't cave on scope. Yes they'd burn the airline down first. When the economy comes back, the shortage of airline pilots will be worse due to mandatory retirements. Pilots know this and no they don't trust the airlines to "do the right thing." They will dig in.
 
txkf2010
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:06 am

I'd expect AC to E2 to replace their 175s that they have KV operating for them. Only carrier in North America whose scope clause is on seats and not seat AND weight.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:26 am

FlyMKG wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It needs to be remembered that Delta negotiated more large (76 seat, 86,000 lb) regional jets as part of the agreement to bring in the 717 (and not reduce other flying).

It was a deal, bring in 88 717s and you can fly 50 more 76 RJs (but the total quantity of alliwed RJs stopped going up).

The CS100 expands that. I agree cheap purchase/lease enabled Delta to bring in the 717/CS100, but improving the RJ economics was part of the business case.



With Compass Airlines shutting down, there is no more flow down protection offered to Delta pilots. The amount of 76 seat aircraft actually needs to be decreased by 35 frames per the contract unless another DCI carrier agrees to a flow down. Delta is required to remove 76 seat jets. They are in no position to add more.


The 35 jets are irrelevant right now, with well over 100 2 class RJ's parked today. It'll be years before they really need those 35 jets back.
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jagraham
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:47 am

airlineworker wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.


I can't imagine any airline flying a 757 with 76 seats, fuel and maintenance costs would wipe out any profit. The E-2 175 is basically the same as the E-175. If both sides would offer some give and take this issue could be resolved. Unions at Eastern held firm and in the end, Eastern was gone. I'm not promoting one side over the other, but both mainline and regionals need to work together.



LaCompagnie flew 757s with 74 seats. Business class, but not fully lie flat. Now replaced with A321LRs with 76 seats. They fly Paris to Newark
 
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Revelation
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:54 am

Jetport wrote:
It's either accept the E175-E2 under scope or continue to have the E175-E1.5 as the only option. Even with the economics of the E175-E2 there is no way the thin routes most 76 seat planes fly can support mainline pilot pay packages. The pilot's unions apparently have no problem forcing airlines to burn more fuel than needed or telling folks like me who fly out of smaller airports (PWM in my case) that we have to accept significantly reduced frequency so they can kill off the regional carriers.

The Mitsubishi MRJ/Spacejet is a joke, if it ever flies in commercial service I would bet money the currently available E175-E1.5 will still be a lower cost plane to operate.

The regional airlines are killing themselves off. A bunch of greedy cutthroats willing to bid against each other till no one can make money. It worked well when there were more pilots than seats. Once the Vietnam era pilots retired off and kids and their parents realized spending tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to get their kid into a job that paid less than being a manager at McDonalds, the gravy train stopped and the industry is stuck with its thumb up its bum because they've dug themselves this hole based on paying pilots dirt wages. The main victim of the race to the bottom has been the regional airline industry itself, and it couldn't happen soon enough.

Living in PWM gives you access to a nice things like clean air, relatively few COVID cases, lots of nice shorelines and forests nearby, a relatively low cost of living, etc. What it doesn't get you is high frequency mainline flights. You made your choice, deal with it. Don't complain because young people won't work for short money under challenging circumstances just so you can have cheap airline flights.
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CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:13 am

jagraham wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

So the company doesn’t put 76 first class seats in a 757 and have SkyWest fly it.


I can't imagine any airline flying a 757 with 76 seats, fuel and maintenance costs would wipe out any profit. The E-2 175 is basically the same as the E-175. If both sides would offer some give and take this issue could be resolved. Unions at Eastern held firm and in the end, Eastern was gone. I'm not promoting one side over the other, but both mainline and regionals need to work together.



LaCompagnie flew 757s with 74 seats. Business class, but not fully lie flat. Now replaced with A321LRs with 76 seats. They fly Paris to Newark


There it is! United express operated by Mesa 757s across the ocean.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:24 am

FlyMKG wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It needs to be remembered that Delta negotiated more large (76 seat, 86,000 lb) regional jets as part of the agreement to bring in the 717 (and not reduce other flying).

It was a deal, bring in 88 717s and you can fly 50 more 76 RJs (but the total quantity of alliwed RJs stopped going up).

The CS100 expands that. I agree cheap purchase/lease enabled Delta to bring in the 717/CS100, but improving the RJ economics was part of the business case.



With Compass Airlines shutting down, there is no more flow down protection offered to Delta pilots. The amount of 76 seat aircraft actually needs to be decreased by 35 frames per the contract unless another DCI carrier agrees to a flow down. Delta is required to remove 76 seat jets. They are in no position to add more.

My comments were on to why the economics of the 717 and A221 are more than the economics of individual types of aircraft.

We all now know the majors must reduce RJ count, in particular 76 RJs today. But there will be a time new 76 RJs are bought.

That is what this thread is about. Could the E2-175 sell to US regional airlines. I am of the opinion scope will not change. As someone in aerospace R&D, I see the advantage of the latest generation aircraft.

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alasizon
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:25 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Regional crews want nothing to do with flying a 175-E2. It should be at mainline.


That is not at all true. Regional pilots want something to fly; if that happens to be the E2, so be it. Sure, they would prefer to be making Mainline wages but to say they want nothing to do with flying the E2 is not correct at all.

FLALEFTY wrote:
I wonder why Alaska, which supposedly does not have the 86K lb. scope limit restriction for their Horizon operations, has been ordering E175E1's, rather than E2's? Perhaps the efficiency gain does not offset the capital costs?


A) The E2 isn't in service yet and won't be for a while
B) Just because the clause isn't there doesn't mean AS wants to piss off its pilot group
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