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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:20 pm

jagraham wrote:
I'm with Lightsaber, in that the MRJ / Spacejet does not need scope relaxation. How did MRJ get those engines in under the scope limit whereas Embraer is 12000 lb (about 14%) over? But in the end, the E2s do the same things as the E1s except they weigh more and burn less fuel. Not much of a scope relaxation, but airlines have been tripped up over less.

In the end, what if one airline accepts E2-175 as an RJ and can fly regional legs for less cost? (will it be less cost, as fuel is only one component?) Will the other airlines accept less profit? Or find ways to join the bandwagon? Or reallocate such that E1s are on shorter legs which will be less disadvantageous? And there is still the Spacejet which has the same engine technology but is light enough to not need scope relief.

Note also that not much is said about the E195E2 which is a mainline aircraft in the US and the US airlines that have them operate them as mainline aircraft. It competes directly with the A221, which should be an exciting market segment, but . . . crickets?


Doubt that this Japanese product will hit the US market. Especially after boeing bought so many interests in Embraer commercial aviation.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:32 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


Because the scope clauses in the collective agreements say so. It's basically contractual but those contracts are very hard negotiated.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


If an airline is in trouble and enters Chapter 11, that contract can be rejected as part of a bankruptcy if a judge approves (not unlike how a lease may be rejected). I could very well see a scope clause based on MTOW being discharged, with a new one based on seats only. American is most likely to go down this route with debt maturing in about 2 years, and with a whole heap of 44- and 50-seat jets it would need to replace soon (105 E140/E145 and 19 CRJ2 jets - the oldest of the ERJs being 22 years). I doubt that any ERJ would be put through another heavy check. (The amount of 50-seat markets could be drawing down very quickly now.)
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:43 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


Because the scope clauses in the collective agreements say so. It's basically contractual but those contracts are very hard negotiated.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


If an airline is in trouble and enters Chapter 11, that contract can be rejected as part of a bankruptcy if a judge approves (not unlike how a lease may be rejected). I could very well see a scope clause based on MTOW being discharged, with a new one based on seats only. American is most likely to go down this route with debt maturing in about 2 years, and with a whole heap of 44- and 50-seat jets it would need to replace soon (105 E140/E145 and 19 CRJ2 jets - the oldest of the ERJs being 22 years). I doubt that any ERJ would be put through another heavy check. (The amount of 50-seat markets could be drawing down very quickly now.)


Not quite true. A bankruptcy judge will typically not give an unfair advantage and will usually error on the side of industry average. Now if all 3 go bankrupt at the same time then you may see the weight go away.
 
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par13del
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:08 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Doubt that this Japanese product will hit the US market. Especially after boeing bought so many interests in Embraer commercial aviation.

How exactly does that work, Boeing was unable to prevent Airbus and Embraer from selling a/c into the US domestic market, how are they going to prevent the Japanese?
 
strfyr51
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:17 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Scope relaxation has historically happened during periods of bankruptcies or restructurings, I could totally see the COVID crisis as the catalyst for a scope change that allows the E2 a foothold.



Why would the pilot Unions relax scope ? Especially if they're purportedly going to be Laid off? That makes NO sense in their thinking.
You're going to lose your Jobs if you don't allow larger airplanes to fly for the regionals? REALLY?!? and those airplanes are going to fly mainline Routes?
Does that REALLY make sense to you?? Why and for Whom would the Airlines SEEK to start an entire round of acrimony just for Embraer?
Are the airplanes Built in the USA? NO! So Not many in the USA will benefit from having the E2 in service will they? Boeing might well like that, However?
Boeing Sells Airplanes and they'd like Business to be good. I can understand that. But the Airlines are flying the hell out of the E-175 ceo. And they're reportedly performing pretty well. If Boeing wants to do something? Then put some muscle into building the E195 in the USA and offering that to the airlines to try and open the door for the E175-E2 ,OR? Just build the E175 E2 and try and sell them in a package to the Majors (at a discount) Because unless the Deal is too good to refuse?
The Majors in the USA are not going to budge and thus? Neither will the Pilot's union. because What's really in it for them? And?
What's in it for a USA major to risk a strike to force the Issue?
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:42 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Were I an Embraer investor, I'd be wanting answers from management over the EMB-175 E2. Unless there's some significant factor I've missed, there seems to be no reason for a hugely successful manufacturer of regional aircraft to deliberately design an aircraft that does not comply with an economic restriction in a huge market that had little to no chance of being changed, in the period in which the plane was brought to market, and the near future.

Jim


The E175 was not made in a vacuum, the E175 was specifically designed to go right up to the scope limits, taking advantage of every seat and pound available. It is very safe to say, the E175 is defined its by scope.

The E175-E2 was made to push scope Into higher weights. It is specifically “the same aircraft as before, but heavier.” Thus making a compelling reason to push the scope weight higher and in the future allow much more capable planes. When EMB asked DL, UA and AA if they wanted the E2, I’m sure the answer was yes- that was optimistic response. The practical answer is that they only want it at the regional- and they have impediments to putting it there. For the time being EMB bet wrong.
Boiler Up!
 
strfyr51
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:47 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Why can't the scope be based on the number of seats and not MTOW?


Because the scope clauses in the collective agreements say so. It's basically contractual but those contracts are very hard negotiated.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

If an airline is in trouble and enters Chapter 11, that contract can be rejected as part of a bankruptcy if a judge approves (not unlike how a lease may be rejected). I could very well see a scope clause based on MTOW being discharged, with a new one based on seats only. American is most likely to go down this route with debt maturing in about 2 years, and with a whole heap of 44- and 50-seat jets it would need to replace soon (105 E140/E145 and 19 CRJ2 jets - the oldest of the ERJs being 22 years). I doubt that any ERJ would be put through another heavy check. (The amount of 50-seat markets could be drawing down very quickly now.)



you have a different take on CH-11 because it would NOT allow what you espouse. Even if they declare bankruptcy? How could they even ORDER new airplanes that do not meet the scope clause anyway? And what USA major would do that JUST for the E-175- E2? You might want to see that? But I can assure you. That unless they literally Give that airplane away? OR a NEW carrier is formed built around the E195/175 E2? Like Dave Neeleman's new airline? And they raise MUCH Hell? then there's NO business case for any of this reasoning. Because? We don't really Need it.. the real purpose of innovation is? to see a need and Fill that need? And my question is? Do we really NEED the E175/ E195-E2?? I submit? We Don't. Not because it's not a good airplane.
It just isn't that Great of an airplane that everybody MIGHT NEED IT! Boeing is going to eventually build the 797 and they'll build it based on the market need to replace the B757 and B767. But? Exactly What airlines is the E175/E195-E2 going to replace? Delta bought their new airplanes to replace their MD-80's and MD-90's
Even with the 737's in the lurch? the E195 E2 cannot replace that airplane. Even OLD ones.
 
jagraham
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:35 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
I'm with Lightsaber, in that the MRJ / Spacejet does not need scope relaxation. How did MRJ get those engines in under the scope limit whereas Embraer is 12000 lb (about 14%) over? But in the end, the E2s do the same things as the E1s except they weigh more and burn less fuel. Not much of a scope relaxation, but airlines have been tripped up over less.

In the end, what if one airline accepts E2-175 as an RJ and can fly regional legs for less cost? (will it be less cost, as fuel is only one component?) Will the other airlines accept less profit? Or find ways to join the bandwagon? Or reallocate such that E1s are on shorter legs which will be less disadvantageous? And there is still the Spacejet which has the same engine technology but is light enough to not need scope relief.

Note also that not much is said about the E195E2 which is a mainline aircraft in the US and the US airlines that have them operate them as mainline aircraft. It competes directly with the A221, which should be an exciting market segment, but . . . crickets?


Doubt that this Japanese product will hit the US market. Especially after boeing bought so many interests in Embraer commercial aviation.


As with the A220, if one of the US3 wants it, they will find a way to get it.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:45 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Were I an Embraer investor, I'd be wanting answers from management over the EMB-175 E2. Unless there's some significant factor I've missed, there seems to be no reason for a hugely successful manufacturer of regional aircraft to deliberately design an aircraft that does not comply with an economic restriction in a huge market that had little to no chance of being changed, in the period in which the plane was brought to market, and the near future.

Jim


The E175 was not made in a vacuum, the E175 was specifically designed to go right up to the scope limits, taking advantage of every seat and pound available. It is very safe to say, the E175 is defined its by scope.

The E175-E2 was made to push scope Into higher weights. It is specifically “the same aircraft as before, but heavier.” Thus making a compelling reason to push the scope weight higher and in the future allow much more capable planes. When EMB asked DL, UA and AA if they wanted the E2, I’m sure the answer was yes- that was optimistic response. The practical answer is that they only want it at the regional- and they have impediments to putting it there. For the time being EMB bet wrong.


When the E175E2 was launched in 2013 with Skywest's provisional order for 100, the design concept was that the new aircraft would stay within the 86K lb. limit. As development progressed, Embraer was struggling sticking to the weight budget (due to the heavier engines) and staying within the program's financial budget. Original design plans called for a new, CFRP wing and use of lighter weight (but more expensive) aluminum alloys to build the fuselage. Due to budget constraints, Embraer made a decision not to pursue those weight-saving measures and hoped that potential customers would make the scope limitation (based on MTOW) go away.

Embraer, Skywest and Skywest's mainline airline customers had years to work this scope issue, but nothing happened. Therefore, Skywest canceled their provisional order in 2018. Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:26 am

par13del wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Doubt that this Japanese product will hit the US market. Especially after boeing bought so many interests in Embraer commercial aviation.

How exactly does that work, Boeing was unable to prevent Airbus and Embraer from selling a/c into the US domestic market, how are they going to prevent the Japanese?

The mrj looks way too thin to sell on the us market.it looks thinner then a crj .

Its made for asían markets and customers.
I prefer to believe that the scope clauses will be adapted for the e175 replacement with e2s.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:46 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
par13del wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Doubt that this Japanese product will hit the US market. Especially after boeing bought so many interests in Embraer commercial aviation.

How exactly does that work, Boeing was unable to prevent Airbus and Embraer from selling a/c into the US domestic market, how are they going to prevent the Japanese?

The mrj looks way too thin to sell on the us market.it looks thinner then a crj .

Its made for asían markets and customers.
I prefer to believe that the scope clauses will be adapted for the e175 replacement with e2s.

Seat width for the M100 is 47cm or 18.5" vs. a narroer 18.3" for the E2.

Actually, the E2 is thinner. The MRJ has no underfloor luggage and an extended tail for baggage, so it looks thinner. In fact, the M100 has an 11 cm wider cabin than the E2.

https://airinsight.com/from-mitsubishi- ... s-changed/

https://simpleflying.com/embraer-e2-vs-airbus-a220/

FLALEFTY wrote:
The E175 was not made in a vacuum, the E175 was
When the E175E2 was launched in 2013 with Skywest's provisional order for 100, the design concept was that the new aircraft would stay within the 86K lb. limit. As development progressed, Embraer was struggling sticking to the weight budget (due to the heavier engines) and staying within the program's financial budget. Original design plans called for a new, CFRP wing and use of lighter weight (but more expensive) aluminum alloys to build the fuselage. Due to budget constraints, Embraer made a decision not to pursue those weight-saving measures and hoped that potential customers would make the scope limitation (based on MTOW) go away.

Embraer, Skywest and Skywest's mainline airline customers had years to work this scope issue, but nothing happened. Therefore, Skywest canceled their provisional order in 2018. Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.

Embraer needs a launch customer first. As noted before, the E170 was purpose built for scope. When scope opened up more, the E-175 took over the market.

This time both Mitsubishi and Embraer brazenly ignored scope and neither received any leniency. Mitsubishi adapted by stretching the M70 almost a meter and repositioning the rear pressure bulkhead to get the most out of the scope weight.

Embraer needs an E2-170. Something built for scope. The extra stretch won't be accepted. The M100 will have fewer comfort+ seats than the original E-175 because that is what is required to meet scope. Embraer stretched the E2-175 vs E-175, partially to have more luggage space (M100 will allow 30 more bags in cargo than E2-175). But longer won't meet weight.

I'd like more space, but I'm betting no scope expansion.
. Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:08 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
...
Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.


Very true.

SkyWest conditional orders were removed by Embraer from its order book, although in a press article it was reported that the airline remains "committed" to the aircraft, whatever it means. John Slattery also mentioned that the conditions remain the same.

QUOTE from https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article

    A previous agreement with SkyWest for 100 units was removed from the airframer's firm order backlog last year to comply with accounting regulations. Although Embraer stressed that the regional carrier remained "committed" to the deal, it said there was no certainty around when the scope clause agreements might be revised.

Despite the huge uncertainty, Embraer decided to proceed with the development of the aircraft. The E175-E2 first flight test article performed its maiden flight in December 2019.

It is very likely the flight test is currently slowed down due to the covid-19 crisis.
Therefore we should expect a delay in the certification of the aircraft that was initially planned for 2021.
Last edited by VV on Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ewt340
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:16 am

These Executives smokes too much pipe for saying these crazy things.
Last edited by ewt340 on Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:17 am

ewt340 wrote:
These Executives smokes too much pipe for saying these crazy things.


Can you please elaborate?

Do you have any more specific information relative to the statement reported in the press article?
If so, please tell us more. We are very interested to know.
 
ewt340
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:26 am

VV wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
These Executives smokes too much pipe for saying these crazy things.


Can you please elaborate?

Do you have any more specific information relative to the statement reported in the press article?
If so, please tell us more. We are very interested to know.


Apart from the scope clause or the fact that this particular model hasn't sell a single frame at all?

Or the fact that Boeing has it hands full at the moment with the MAX. So don't hold your breath for Airbus-Bombardier partnership with Boeing anytime soon.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:28 am

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?


It can't be argued conclusively, but on balance of evidence.

Other than seat count I would point to labor $ productivity of DL vs. AA and UA, perhaps in part by virtue of DL's lower unionization rate. But it's clear DL sees more total revenue $ per employee - not just vs. AA and UA but every other U.S. carrier.

It needs to be remembered that Delta negotiated more large (76 seat, 86,000 lb) regional jets as part of the agreement to bring in the 717 (and not reduce other flying).

It was a deal, bring in 88 717s and you can fly 50 more 76 RJs (but the total quantity of alliwed RJs stopped going up).

The CS100 expands that. I agree cheap purchase/lease enabled Delta to bring in the 717/CS100, but improving the RJ economics was part of the business case.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vision-7 ... gic-miller

Jetport wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Delta is flying CS-100s and 717s how do you explain that conclusively?


Having 10 and 11 more seats respectively for A220 and 717 makes a significant difference. Add in smoking hot purchase/lease deals (both aircraft) and more efficient aircraft (CS-100) and Delta apparently can make it work. There is no way it works with a 76 seater vs. 109 or 110 seats.

109 seats versus 76 is a tremendous difference in revenue. Having 43% more seats bridges the business case. As these planes have a first class, in effect bgreat service fir the front and diluted costs for the back.

Which brings us back to reality.
E2-175 has sold none
E2-190 has sold 27 (11 delivered)
R2-195 has sold 137 (7 delivered)

A221 has sold 94 examples (40 delivered)
A223 has sold 548 (73 delivered).

So far, the economics are saying larger is better.

The E2-175 has several chances.
Aeromexico
https://airlinerwatch.com/aeromexico-to ... nal-fleet/
TAP Portugal ?

But who will risk being the launch customer?

Lightsaber

Actually the total number of outsourced planes and outsourced seats went down in contract 2012 where the 717 deal was placed.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:38 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
I also, sadly, don't see the immediate appeal of the E175-E2 in the US.

First of all, the US majors just received a bunch of brand new 175s over the past few years. These planes will not need replacing until 2030 or later. In fact, they still have more on order (delivery may be "up in the air" so to speak, owing to COVID, but nonetheless new ones are/were being built this year).

Second, the situation that airlines face at the moment is one of needing to shrink their operations significantly. This is not the time to buy new planes. Even if the oldest of the 175s need retiring in the near future, there are plenty of newer ones out there that will more than pick up the slack. So, again, what's the rush to buy the E2?

Third, the argument about pilots needing to give up scope to save their jobs in this environment is a bit disingenuous, for a combination of the above reasons: airlines are not struggling for lack of new equipment, they are struggling for lack of demand for their service. Fuel prices are down right now, which reduces one of the main benefits of the E2. If fuel prices were to rise significantly, one would assume that would occur in tandem with a rise in the economy, which would imply that the state of the airline industry would be improving, therefore countering any argument that the airlines "need" scope relief to survive.

Just because a plane is more fuel efficient than another type doesn't automatically make it a must-have for airline fleets, and it doesn't automatically render existing fleets worthless junk. Airlines didn't immediately throw away paid-for A340s just because the 777 and A330 got better. Airlines found profitable uses for their 767 fleets after the 787 was introduced, etc. Likewise, even the existence of the E2 doesn't mean the E1s have to all be thrown away. If the economy recovers, the existing 175 fleets will be able to be flown profitably for a bunch more years, and if it doesn't, then the E2 doesn't really have much chance anyway.


Especially with OO still receiving a lot of E175s that it ordered directly (and will then offer to the US3 and others in a capacity purchase). The real aim is to get the aging 50-seat planes out the door.

Now, on this, a wild card could be B6. They have no scope clause, and will need a plane smaller than the A220-300 or even the A220-100 for intra-New York and New England operations. However, at the same time, if one is thinking about resale, the E275 will not be liquid at all, and if B6 were to acquire them, they would need to plan for a 23-24 year service life (about the same service life expected for the Airbus aircraft at B6). I could see the B6 pilots union at least pushing for some restrictions on where they can fly (i.e., similar to Hawaiian, where mainline and regional planes cannot operate the same routes).

BTW, are orders still being taken on the CRJ9?

B6 has a scope clauses, no entity directly controlled by JetBlue may fly under JetBlue paint or code, where the cockpit is not crewed by B6 pilots.
 
VV
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:47 am

ewt340 wrote:
VV wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
These Executives smokes too much pipe for saying these crazy things.


Can you please elaborate?

Do you have any more specific information relative to the statement reported in the press article?
If so, please tell us more. We are very interested to know.


Apart from the scope clause or the fact that this particular model hasn't sell a single frame at all?


The article clearly said that the Skywest order was removed from the order book. What are you trying to say with your sentence above?

In addition, I suggest you to read the quoted article carefully and completely.
Here is the link: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article

ewt340 wrote:
Or the fact that Boeing has it hands full at the moment with the MAX. So don't hold your breath for Airbus-Bombardier partnership with Boeing anytime soon.


This is still Embraer's program.

I hope you know that the deal between Embraer and Boeing is still held up by the European Union, so I just do not understand your statement above.

Can you please elaborate?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:00 am

lightsaber wrote:
Embraer needs a launch customer first. As noted before, the E170 was purpose built for scope. When scope opened up more, the E-175 took over the market.


If it's entire purpose was to circumvent some American scope requirements, then why did so many land at non-US operators? Finnair, Alitalia, LOT, Egyptair, BA Cityflyer, Air France-HOP! and J-air just to name some of those that took them directly from the factory... :roll:
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:18 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Embraer needs a launch customer first. As noted before, the E170 was purpose built for scope. When scope opened up more, the E-175 took over the market.


If it's entire purpose was to circumvent some American scope requirements, then why did so many land at non-US operators? Finnair, Alitalia, LOT, Egyptair, BA Cityflyer, Air France-HOP! and J-air just to name some of those that took them directly from the factory... :roll:



No one said it was a bad plane, we just said It was designed to use every available pound of US3 scope-and not a pound more.

That being said having hundreds of e170s and e175s operating in the US makes it cheaper and more manageable to operate the Jet elsewhere. At the moment, no one has a reason to suspect the E2 will be purchased by a US regional or mainline.
Boiler Up!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:12 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Embraer needs a launch customer first. As noted before, the E170 was purpose built for scope. When scope opened up more, the E-175 took over the market.


If it's entire purpose was to circumvent some American scope requirements, then why did so many land at non-US operators? Finnair, Alitalia, LOT, Egyptair, BA Cityflyer, Air France-HOP! and J-air just to name some of those that took them directly from the factory... :roll:



No one said it was a bad plane, we just said It was designed to use every available pound of US3 scope-and not a pound more.

That being said having hundreds of e170s and e175s operating in the US makes it cheaper and more manageable to operate the Jet elsewhere. At the moment, no one has a reason to suspect the E2 will be purchased by a US regional or mainline.

If I may rephrase, as long as Embraer cannot sell in volume to the US market, other buyers will continue to shun the type. SkyWest's conditional order for the E2-175 was in June 2013. That means the E2-175 has been selling for 7 years.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 07941.html

Why are non-US airlines not buying? Most small operators cannot afford to be a launch operator. If aircraft perform poorly, they go bankrupt. I would love to know the terms of the Winderoe contract.. The majority of aircraft are sold either directly or sale) leaseback to leasing companies. Until either a large number of airlines buy or an airline known for buying odd types used (Delta) buys in, it is tough selling. The original E-170/190 was a unique offering that, in my opinion, the large JetBlue order sparked confidence in the market.

The only large buyers are the North America regionals. JAL wouldn't have bought their mere 18 E170s if the US airlines hadn't ordered big. That is the largest order outside of North America:

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e170.htm

The CRJ is similar. China express airlines ordered 40:

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-crj.htm


Establishing a fleet requires a large North American buyer. Delta and JetBlue knew they were playing kingmaker in their A220 vs. E2 competitions. Hence why pricing was brutal.

Embraer could sell a smaller aircraft, I call it an E2-170.

Lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Embraer needs a launch customer first. As noted before, the E170 was purpose built for scope. When scope opened up more, the E-175 took over the market.


If it's entire purpose was to circumvent some American scope requirements, then why did so many land at non-US operators? Finnair, Alitalia, LOT, Egyptair, BA Cityflyer, Air France-HOP! and J-air just to name some of those that took them directly from the factory... :roll:


You're ignoring economies of scale. Add up the big E-fleets of all those carriers you named and compare the number to the sum of E70/E75/CR7/CR9 operated for AA/DL/UA under scope clauses. Without U.S. demand Embraer is crippled on this type. What's another word for manufacturing for a global market without economies of scale? DEAD! Look for the Finnish or Canadian smart phone manufacturing industry. Look for the German computer hardware industry. Look for the Australian auto manufacturing industry. Roll some eyes at that.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:48 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
When the E175E2 was launched in 2013 with Skywest's provisional order for 100, the design concept was that the new aircraft would stay within the 86K lb. limit. As development progressed, Embraer was struggling sticking to the weight budget (due to the heavier engines) and staying within the program's financial budget. Original design plans called for a new, CFRP wing and use of lighter weight (but more expensive) aluminum alloys to build the fuselage. Due to budget constraints, Embraer made a decision not to pursue those weight-saving measures and hoped that potential customers would make the scope limitation (based on MTOW) go away.

Embraer, Skywest and Skywest's mainline airline customers had years to work this scope issue, but nothing happened. Therefore, Skywest canceled their provisional order in 2018. Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.

A friend of mine teaches at business school and one of his favorite sayings is "Hope is not a plan".

It's pretty amazing EMB launched this program on the basis of hope.
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:18 pm

VV wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
...
Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.


Very true.

SkyWest conditional orders were removed by Embraer from its order book, although in a press article it was reported that the airline remains "committed" to the aircraft, whatever it means. John Slattery also mentioned that the conditions remain the same.

QUOTE from https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article

    A previous agreement with SkyWest for 100 units was removed from the airframer's firm order backlog last year to comply with accounting regulations. Although Embraer stressed that the regional carrier remained "committed" to the deal, it said there was no certainty around when the scope clause agreements might be revised.

Despite the huge uncertainty, Embraer decided to proceed with the development of the aircraft. The E175-E2 first flight test article performed its maiden flight in December 2019.

It is very likely the flight test is currently slowed down due to the covid-19 crisis.
Therefore we should expect a delay in the certification of the aircraft that was initially planned for 2021.

They will sell a few once this aircraft is out. Just look at how well the e175 sold worldwide.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:55 pm

The 170-195 were design to be flown together in commonwealth . i never heard about the175 being specifically designed for the us regional scope clauses. It has been Designed for right fleet sizing in the 70to130 seat market. Check the embaer website.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:11 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
The 170-195 were design to be flown together in commonwealth . i never heard about the175 being specifically designed for the us regional scope clauses. It has been Designed for right fleet sizing in the 70to130 seat market. Check the embaer website.

E175 MTOW- 89,000lbs

Max MTOW for DL to outsource -89,000lbs (specifically for 36 E175s previously operated for Northwest Airlines).


All the other scope clauses (including all the other DL 76 seat jets) are 86,000lbs. MTOW for E2- 99,000lbs.
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:40 pm

txkf2010 wrote:
TObound wrote:
txkf2010 wrote:
I'd expect AC to E2 to replace their 175s that they have KV operating for them. Only carrier in North America whose scope clause is on seats and not seat AND weight.


I can't see it. They'll be replaced with Q400s eventually.


Can you really see a Q doing YYZ-ORD/ATL/MSY/DFW/AUS/IAH?


Porter operates YTZ-MDW with Qs, so ORD is certainly a possibility. I personally have flown on this route countless times
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:44 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
The 170-195 were design to be flown together in commonwealth . i never heard about the175 being specifically designed for the us regional scope clauses. It has been Designed for right fleet sizing in the 70to130 seat market. Check the embaer website.


Did any operator have a mixed 170/190 fleet?
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
The 170-195 were design to be flown together in commonwealth . i never heard about the175 being specifically designed for the us regional scope clauses. It has been Designed for right fleet sizing in the 70to130 seat market. Check the embaer website.


Did any operator have a mixed 170/190 fleet?


Aeromexico
 
ewt340
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:30 pm

VV wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
VV wrote:

Can you please elaborate?

Do you have any more specific information relative to the statement reported in the press article?
If so, please tell us more. We are very interested to know.


Apart from the scope clause or the fact that this particular model hasn't sell a single frame at all?


The article clearly said that the Skywest order was removed from the order book. What are you trying to say with your sentence above?

In addition, I suggest you to read the quoted article carefully and completely.
Here is the link: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article

ewt340 wrote:
Or the fact that Boeing has it hands full at the moment with the MAX. So don't hold your breath for Airbus-Bombardier partnership with Boeing anytime soon.


This is still Embraer's program.

I hope you know that the deal between Embraer and Boeing is still held up by the European Union, so I just do not understand your statement above.

Can you please elaborate?


I SAID: There is 0 order for this model. If an airlines order 10,000 frames and then cancelled it, it's still 0. I'm saying the model sucks, just like A319neo or MAX7.
I don't need to read the article anymore. The fact of the matter is there is 0 frame sold today.

A220 survival actually depends on the Airbus deal. The only reason it selling as well as it is today is because airlines have confident that A220 would survived in the long run under Airbus. If Airbus deals had failed back then, A220 would probably ceased to exist. This would be a big blow for many airlines that already operated it or airlines who are ordered it.

Same case goes for E2. Currently it got 171 confirmed order. The retirement for the previous model hasn't kick in yet, older model (E-175) is still in production, 181 frames in the backlog to be precise. Some of the main operators switch to A220 like JetBlue and some potential customers like Breeze chose A220 as well. Other major operators like SkyWest ordered 100 Mitsubishi M90 which is the main competitor for E2. Mesa Airlines orderer 50 M100 with 50 further options. Any order for other regional jet other than E175-E2 is sale lost on the model regardless. Especially if the current operator of E175 order other models for growth or replacements.

All these factors they didn't listed in the article is the proof that he was high when he done the interview.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:46 pm

jagraham wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
I'm with Lightsaber, in that the MRJ / Spacejet does not need scope relaxation. How did MRJ get those engines in under the scope limit whereas Embraer is 12000 lb (about 14%) over? But in the end, the E2s do the same things as the E1s except they weigh more and burn less fuel. Not much of a scope relaxation, but airlines have been tripped up over less.

In the end, what if one airline accepts E2-175 as an RJ and can fly regional legs for less cost? (will it be less cost, as fuel is only one component?) Will the other airlines accept less profit? Or find ways to join the bandwagon? Or reallocate such that E1s are on shorter legs which will be less disadvantageous? And there is still the Spacejet which has the same engine technology but is light enough to not need scope relief.

Note also that not much is said about the E195E2 which is a mainline aircraft in the US and the US airlines that have them operate them as mainline aircraft. It competes directly with the A221, which should be an exciting market segment, but . . . crickets?


Doubt that this Japanese product will hit the US market. Especially after boeing bought so many interests in Embraer commercial aviation.


As with the A220, if one of the US3 wants it, they will find a way to get it.


The A220 is being flown in mainline service. the E175 is being flown in Regional service. SO? Were the E190/195 to be flown in mainline service? At least at United?
the ALPA contract would allow the UAX carriers to fly the E175 in a 2:1 ratio to the E190/195. if it's flown by the Mainline carrier. Why won't they do it? Because the airplanes are nearly identical and in any future downturn? The mainline pilots would demand that all the regional flying of LIKE equipment be brought IN HOUSE!
And once it is? There would really BE no need for UAX would it? Those guys in the Head Shed might be dumb sometimes, But they are FAR from Stupid!
And? That's why you may never see a E175-E2 flown be a regional unless there is no E175 to be built!!
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:50 pm

ewt340 wrote:
VV wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Apart from the scope clause or the fact that this particular model hasn't sell a single frame at all?


The article clearly said that the Skywest order was removed from the order book. What are you trying to say with your sentence above?

In addition, I suggest you to read the quoted article carefully and completely.
Here is the link: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article

ewt340 wrote:
Or the fact that Boeing has it hands full at the moment with the MAX. So don't hold your breath for Airbus-Bombardier partnership with Boeing anytime soon.


This is still Embraer's program.

I hope you know that the deal between Embraer and Boeing is still held up by the European Union, so I just do not understand your statement above.

Can you please elaborate?


I SAID: There is 0 order for this model. If an airlines order 10,000 frames and then cancelled it, it's still 0. I'm saying the model sucks, just like A319neo or MAX7.
I don't need to read the article anymore. The fact of the matter is there is 0 frame sold today.

A220 survival actually depends on the Airbus deal. The only reason it selling as well as it is today is because airlines have confident that A220 would survived in the long run under Airbus. If Airbus deals had failed back then, A220 would probably ceased to exist. This would be a big blow for many airlines that already operated it or airlines who are ordered it.

Same case goes for E2. Currently it got 171 confirmed order. The retirement for the previous model hasn't kick in yet, older model (E-175) is still in production, 181 frames in the backlog to be precise. Some of the main operators switch to A220 like JetBlue and some potential customers like Breeze chose A220 as well. Other major operators like SkyWest ordered 100 Mitsubishi M90 which is the main competitor for E2. Mesa Airlines orderer 50 M100 with 50 further options. Any order for other regional jet other than E175-E2 is sale lost on the model regardless. Especially if the current operator of E175 order other models for growth or replacements.

All these factors they didn't listed in the article is the proof that he was high when he done the interview.


Did SkyWest and Mesa order the mjet?
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:04 pm

FCRO wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
The 170-195 were design to be flown together in commonwealth . i never heard about the175 being specifically designed for the us regional scope clauses. It has been Designed for right fleet sizing in the 70to130 seat market. Check the embaer website.


Did any operator have a mixed 170/190 fleet?


Aeromexico


Air Canada

Air France

British Airways

Alitalia
Last edited by PPVRA on Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
When the E175E2 was launched in 2013 with Skywest's provisional order for 100, the design concept was that the new aircraft would stay within the 86K lb. limit. As development progressed, Embraer was struggling sticking to the weight budget (due to the heavier engines) and staying within the program's financial budget. Original design plans called for a new, CFRP wing and use of lighter weight (but more expensive) aluminum alloys to build the fuselage. Due to budget constraints, Embraer made a decision not to pursue those weight-saving measures and hoped that potential customers would make the scope limitation (based on MTOW) go away.


Embraer, Skywest and Skywest's mainline airline customers had years to work this scope issue, but nothing happened. Therefore, Skywest canceled their provisional order in 2018. Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.

A friend of mine teaches at business school and one of his favorite sayings is "Hope is not a plan".

It's pretty amazing EMB launched this program on the basis of hope.


I can assure you that Embraer just did what they were asked to do.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:08 am

If Mesa and SkyWest are going the fly with the MRJ this means that Embraer lost clientes on the us regional market!
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:14 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
VV wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
...
Most importantly, no other regional airline, or their mainline airline customers saw fit to order the E175E2 since it was launched in 2013. It has been 7 years since the E175E2 has been on offer, yet as of today, Embraer does not have a single active order for the plane.


Very true.

SkyWest conditional orders were removed by Embraer from its order book, although in a press article it was reported that the airline remains "committed" to the aircraft, whatever it means. John Slattery also mentioned that the conditions remain the same.

QUOTE from https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article

    A previous agreement with SkyWest for 100 units was removed from the airframer's firm order backlog last year to comply with accounting regulations. Although Embraer stressed that the regional carrier remained "committed" to the deal, it said there was no certainty around when the scope clause agreements might be revised.

Despite the huge uncertainty, Embraer decided to proceed with the development of the aircraft. The E175-E2 first flight test article performed its maiden flight in December 2019.

It is very likely the flight test is currently slowed down due to the covid-19 crisis.
Therefore we should expect a delay in the certification of the aircraft that was initially planned for 2021.

They will sell a few once this aircraft is out. Just look at how well the e175 sold worldwide.

The E2 (including the E175-E2) has been offered for sale for almost 7 years now, and the E2 (E190-E2 & E195-E2) has been in service for almost 2 now.
Overall, the Embraer E2 has sold very poorly (171 units...) and the E175-E2 ended up with a whooping ZERO order. Pile onto all that the COVID-19 crisis, and this airplane is heading to be a dud in no time.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:17 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
VV wrote:

The article clearly said that the Skywest order was removed from the order book. What are you trying to say with your sentence above?

In addition, I suggest you to read the quoted article carefully and completely.
Here is the link: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 23.article



This is still Embraer's program.

I hope you know that the deal between Embraer and Boeing is still held up by the European Union, so I just do not understand your statement above.

Can you please elaborate?


I SAID: There is 0 order for this model. If an airlines order 10,000 frames and then cancelled it, it's still 0. I'm saying the model sucks, just like A319neo or MAX7.
I don't need to read the article anymore. The fact of the matter is there is 0 frame sold today.

A220 survival actually depends on the Airbus deal. The only reason it selling as well as it is today is because airlines have confident that A220 would survived in the long run under Airbus. If Airbus deals had failed back then, A220 would probably ceased to exist. This would be a big blow for many airlines that already operated it or airlines who are ordered it.

Same case goes for E2. Currently it got 171 confirmed order. The retirement for the previous model hasn't kick in yet, older model (E-175) is still in production, 181 frames in the backlog to be precise. Some of the main operators switch to A220 like JetBlue and some potential customers like Breeze chose A220 as well. Other major operators like SkyWest ordered 100 Mitsubishi M90 which is the main competitor for E2. Mesa Airlines orderer 50 M100 with 50 further options. Any order for other regional jet other than E175-E2 is sale lost on the model regardless. Especially if the current operator of E175 order other models for growth or replacements.

All these factors they didn't listed in the article is the proof that he was high when he done the interview.


Did SkyWest and Mesa order the mjet?


100 and 50 frames respectively with 50 more for options. There are currently 180 orders for Mjet. That's a direct hit on E175-E2.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:06 pm

It seems Embraer has no other choice than to do the E170-E2 to crack the US market.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:05 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A friend of mine teaches at business school and one of his favorite sayings is "Hope is not a plan".

It's pretty amazing EMB launched this program on the basis of hope.

I can assure you that Embraer just did what they were asked to do.

I guess this is why we have the expression, "leap of faith"?
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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:10 pm

ewt340 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

I SAID: There is 0 order for this model. If an airlines order 10,000 frames and then cancelled it, it's still 0. I'm saying the model sucks, just like A319neo or MAX7.
I don't need to read the article anymore. The fact of the matter is there is 0 frame sold today.

A220 survival actually depends on the Airbus deal. The only reason it selling as well as it is today is because airlines have confident that A220 would survived in the long run under Airbus. If Airbus deals had failed back then, A220 would probably ceased to exist. This would be a big blow for many airlines that already operated it or airlines who are ordered it.

Same case goes for E2. Currently it got 171 confirmed order. The retirement for the previous model hasn't kick in yet, older model (E-175) is still in production, 181 frames in the backlog to be precise. Some of the main operators switch to A220 like JetBlue and some potential customers like Breeze chose A220 as well. Other major operators like SkyWest ordered 100 Mitsubishi M90 which is the main competitor for E2. Mesa Airlines orderer 50 M100 with 50 further options. Any order for other regional jet other than E175-E2 is sale lost on the model regardless. Especially if the current operator of E175 order other models for growth or replacements.

All these factors they didn't listed in the article is the proof that he was high when he done the interview.


Did SkyWest and Mesa order the mjet?


100 and 50 frames respectively with 50 more for options. There are currently 180 orders for Mjet. That's a direct hit on E175-E2.

By which year will these mjets be delivered to these two operators?
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:18 pm

The spacejet is build from scratch. This means more composite on the airframe, compared to Embraer. Can anybody confirm this?
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:35 pm

airlineworker wrote:
It seems Embraer has no other choice than to do the E170-E2 to crack the US market.


But can you build that to do 76pax at 31" pitch and still meet scope weight? E175-E2 is really, really allot heavier.
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:44 pm

Trans State has also cancelled on Mitsubishi.

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 07.article
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:15 pm

The m100 spacejet will be made of more composit materials to make it suitable for US scope clauses.

Basically Embeaer is gambling but if the scope clauses remain what they are its most probably mitsubishi that will replace all the current us regional e175 in more then 5 years from now.
 
amcnd
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:27 pm

Lets pretend Scope isn't a issue. Most contract regionals dont pay for fuel. And the difference overhaul costs are huge. Between the current version and the E2.. Engine different, landing gear different... there would be no cost advantage for a current US regional with 175’s to fly the E2
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:43 pm

    embraer175e2 wrote:
    The m100 spacejet will be made of more composit materials to make it suitable for US scope clauses.

    Basically Embeaer is gambling but if the scope clauses remain what they are its most probably mitsubishi that will replace all the current us regional e175 in more then 5 years from now.


    https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/how-m ... -spacejet/
     
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    Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

    Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:59 pm

    amcnd wrote:
    Lets pretend Scope isn't a issue. Most contract regionals dont pay for fuel. And the difference overhaul costs are huge. Between the current version and the E2.. Engine different, landing gear different... there would be no cost advantage for a current US regional with 175’s to fly the E2


    It is said that the E1 pilots can transition to an E2 with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time. However, the closed-loop, FBW flight control system is completely new and has some "stability enhancements" (shades of MCAS?) to compensate for the smaller fin and horizontal stabilizers (to save weight). You'd think that sim time would be in order to train for the potential the "ghost in the machine" problems that seem to hide in FCS development testing, but pop up unexpectedly in revenue service?

    And you are right, from an MRO standpoint, the E2 might as well be a completely new type of aircraft. The engines, brakes, FBW FCS, flight control surfaces, landing gear, hydraulics actuators, et. al. are different from the E1. Heck, add on the 4.5 tons of empty weight and even the tow bars have to be different? (Probably.)
     
    alasizon
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    Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

    Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:32 pm

    embraer175e2 wrote:
    Trans State has also cancelled on Mitsubishi.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 07.article


    Which makes sense given the airline is shut down. A defunct airline needs no planes.

    FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
    airlineworker wrote:
    It seems Embraer has no other choice than to do the E170-E2 to crack the US market.


    But can you build that to do 76pax at 31" pitch and still meet scope weight? E175-E2 is really, really allot heavier.

    An E170-E2 would have to be the same length as the original E175 +/- a foot to hold the standard 76 pax ([email protected]", [email protected]"); you still can't overcome the wing and engine weight issues and get it under the 86k MTOW limit with anything more than a 600-700 mile range. The only other alternative for an E170-E2 would be overwing exits in lieu of the aft doors allowing them to shorten the fuselage another 2-3' and save on some weight but then you are effectively a different aircraft.

    If the MRJ can deliver on the scope promise, it will be the aircraft moving forward.
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    Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

    Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:54 pm

    embraer175e2 wrote:
    ewt340 wrote:
    embraer175e2 wrote:

    Did SkyWest and Mesa order the mjet?


    100 and 50 frames respectively with 50 more for options. There are currently 180 orders for Mjet. That's a direct hit on E175-E2.

    By which year will these mjets be delivered to these two operators?


    2021 and 2024.
     
    ewt340
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    Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

    Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:58 pm

    embraer175e2 wrote:
    Trans State has also cancelled on Mitsubishi.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 07.article


    Already counted last year. They didn't order any Embraer plane for the future. They actually have Bombardier aircraft on order, Uniteds CRJ550 to be precise. Other than that they got no order for Embraer aircraft.
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