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Insertnamehere
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:57 pm

Surprising that Embraer didn't take into account how they designed themselves out of the U.S. Regional market which buys their jets in droves. Unless we see some sort of exception to scope clauses specifically for the E2's I doubt that we will see many if any stateside.

Offtopic: but could we see an E2 ever of the E145 to bring down some of the technologies from its larger E-jet counterparts?
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:06 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Surprising that Embraer didn't take into account how they designed themselves out of the U.S. Regional market which buys their jets in droves. Unless we see some sort of exception to scope clauses specifically for the E2's I doubt that we will see many if any stateside.

Offtopic: but could we see an E2 ever of the E145 to bring down some of the technologies from its larger E-jet counterparts?


These manufacturers are not really interested in an upgrade of any 50 seat jet.
Last edited by embraer175e2 on Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:16 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
It seems Embraer has no other choice than to do the E170-E2 to crack the US market.


But can you build that to do 76pax at 31" pitch and still meet scope weight? E175-E2 is really, really allot heavier.


If its less than 76 seats, does it really Matter? If it were 68-70 seats, it still would fill a need among the regionals.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Surprising that Embraer didn't take into account how they designed themselves out of the U.S. Regional market which buys their jets in droves. Unless we see some sort of exception to scope clauses specifically for the E2's I doubt that we will see many if any stateside.

Offtopic: but could we see an E2 ever of the E145 to bring down some of the technologies from its larger E-jet counterparts?


These manufacturers are not really interested in an upgrade of any 50 seat jet.

Perhaps they should focus on what their customers want/need instead of making airplanes none of the major airlines can even buy
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:07 pm

airlineworker wrote:
If its less than 76 seats, does it really Matter? If it were 68-70 seats, it still would fill a need among the regionals.


Notwithstanding any COVID-era effects to airline fleet planning (and, frankly, nobody needs new planes at the present moment), airlines have been interested in maximizing the capacity of their regional jet fleet. That means buying 76-seaters right up to the limit that their scope clauses allow them to be flown by contracted regional carriers.

Some carriers have separate scope limits for 70- and 76-seat planes, but even then, the recent preference has been to take the higher-capacity plane and configure it to a lower capacity (i.e. the E175SC) rather than go with a smaller plane.

To the extent that any of this will be relevant in the next few years, I don’t see that changing.
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:23 pm

I'm reading the above posts that Embraer designed what the customer asked for. But there was only one customer who wiggle worded the contract. Mitsubishi did the same, but has a few non wiggle worded sales. I'm amazed both played chicken for so long.

Daring customers to not order in a low margin section of the business is not the wisest strategy.


airlineworker wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
It seems Embraer has no other choice than to do the E170-E2 to crack the US market.


But can you build that to do 76pax at 31" pitch and still meet scope weight? E175-E2 is really, really allot heavier.


If its less than 76 seats, does it really Matter? If it were 68-70 seats, it still would fill a need among the regionals.

I too believe Embraer has no choice but an E2-170 for the US market. The E2-175 has been actively sold since mid-2013 and no viable sales. Not one.

While the MRJ us delay prone, it has enough sales to keep moving forward. The advantage of outside the US sales for the not scope compliant M90 plus US sales of the scope compliant M100.

To overcome that lost momentum, it is time for scope compliant E2.

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TWA772LR
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:36 pm

The airlines are intending to emerge smaller so I personally believe this will lead to E2s in to regionals with the trade off of higher pay for smaller cadres of pilots/fewer flying opportunities at mainline.
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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:41 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Surprising that Embraer didn't take into account how they designed themselves out of the U.S. Regional market which buys their jets in droves. Unless we see some sort of exception to scope clauses specifically for the E2's I doubt that we will see many if any stateside.

Offtopic: but could we see an E2 ever of the E145 to bring down some of the technologies from its larger E-jet counterparts?

Apparently they are letting the US market fall for a bigger aircaft. If they don't come with a scope compliant aircraft they will sure lose a few hundred aircraft sales around 2024 and up.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:46 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The airlines are intending to emerge smaller so I personally believe this will lead to E2s in to regionals with the trade off of higher pay for smaller cadres of pilots/fewer flying opportunities at mainline.

Maybe the airlines will bring some of the regional flying in house to maintain their crew rosters.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:48 am

32andBelow wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The airlines are intending to emerge smaller so I personally believe this will lead to E2s in to regionals with the trade off of higher pay for smaller cadres of pilots/fewer flying opportunities at mainline.

Maybe the airlines will bring some of the regional flying in house to maintain their crew rosters.

That’s not going to happen. The costs just don’t work for that. If my scenario comes true, the best we can hope for for small mainline planes is some kind of package deal from Embraer (the only maker in position to make a deal with next generation RJs and mainline size planes). An example is UAs CBA has language in it to say if UA adds more 76 seaters, then they must add 1.25 small mainline jets (E2 or A220) until they reach a hard limit of 76ers.

Step 1 would be to convince the union to allow the 175E2 (company will have to make a concession, pay would be the easiest; emerging smaller (read less flying=time become more valuable) would mean wages will increase on a per flight hour basis). Increased, long range flying with the NG RJ will offset the decreased mainline flying for overall network value. Step 2 would be to add small mainlines to add more flying opportunities for the mainline pilots (but lower stage lengths meaning less pay in the long run) to compensate for the E2 addition. The airlines win twice in this scenario.
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JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:07 am

TWA772LR wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The airlines are intending to emerge smaller so I personally believe this will lead to E2s in to regionals with the trade off of higher pay for smaller cadres of pilots/fewer flying opportunities at mainline.

Maybe the airlines will bring some of the regional flying in house to maintain their crew rosters.

That’s not going to happen. The costs just don’t work for that. If my scenario comes true, the best we can hope for for small mainline planes is some kind of package deal from Embraer (the only maker in position to make a deal with next generation RJs and mainline size planes). An example is UAs CBA has language in it to say if UA adds more 76 seaters, then they must add 1.25 small mainline jets (E2 or A220) until they reach a hard limit of 76ers.

Step 1 would be to convince the union to allow the 175E2 (company will have to make a concession, pay would be the easiest; emerging smaller (read less flying=time become more valuable) would mean wages will increase on a per flight hour basis). Increased, long range flying with the NG RJ will offset the decreased mainline flying for overall network value. Step 2 would be to add small mainlines to add more flying opportunities for the mainline pilots (but lower stage lengths meaning less pay in the long run) to compensate for the E2 addition. The airlines win twice in this scenario.

Yeah that’s a hard pass. Good luck getting any pilot to agree to that.
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:12 am

Revelation wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A friend of mine teaches at business school and one of his favorite sayings is "Hope is not a plan".

It's pretty amazing EMB launched this program on the basis of hope.

I can assure you that Embraer just did what they were asked to do.

I guess this is why we have the expression, "leap of faith"?


Sort of... and I don’t quite understand what happens with these shareholders...

But seriously, Embraer was never a market driver in the commercial aviation. All products are carefully reviewed with customers before launch. Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction.
Another thing to note is that PW is one of the owners of the E2 program. So, PW might as well be pushing for the PW1700 to come into market.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:41 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Maybe the airlines will bring some of the regional flying in house to maintain their crew rosters.

That’s not going to happen. The costs just don’t work for that. If my scenario comes true, the best we can hope for for small mainline planes is some kind of package deal from Embraer (the only maker in position to make a deal with next generation RJs and mainline size planes). An example is UAs CBA has language in it to say if UA adds more 76 seaters, then they must add 1.25 small mainline jets (E2 or A220) until they reach a hard limit of 76ers.

Step 1 would be to convince the union to allow the 175E2 (company will have to make a concession, pay would be the easiest; emerging smaller (read less flying=time become more valuable) would mean wages will increase on a per flight hour basis). Increased, long range flying with the NG RJ will offset the decreased mainline flying for overall network value. Step 2 would be to add small mainlines to add more flying opportunities for the mainline pilots (but lower stage lengths meaning less pay in the long run) to compensate for the E2 addition. The airlines win twice in this scenario.

Yeah that’s a hard pass. Good luck getting any pilot to agree to that.

The pilots can't help if the airline wants/needs to cut back operations due to a cataclysmic event.
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JoseSalazar
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:54 am

TWA772LR wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
That’s not going to happen. The costs just don’t work for that. If my scenario comes true, the best we can hope for for small mainline planes is some kind of package deal from Embraer (the only maker in position to make a deal with next generation RJs and mainline size planes). An example is UAs CBA has language in it to say if UA adds more 76 seaters, then they must add 1.25 small mainline jets (E2 or A220) until they reach a hard limit of 76ers.

Step 1 would be to convince the union to allow the 175E2 (company will have to make a concession, pay would be the easiest; emerging smaller (read less flying=time become more valuable) would mean wages will increase on a per flight hour basis). Increased, long range flying with the NG RJ will offset the decreased mainline flying for overall network value. Step 2 would be to add small mainlines to add more flying opportunities for the mainline pilots (but lower stage lengths meaning less pay in the long run) to compensate for the E2 addition. The airlines win twice in this scenario.

Yeah that’s a hard pass. Good luck getting any pilot to agree to that.

The pilots can't help if the airline wants/needs to cut back operations due to a cataclysmic event.

They can help whether or not they give on scope. And they won’t.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:12 am

Jungleneer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:

I can assure you that Embraer just did what they were asked to do.

I guess this is why we have the expression, "leap of faith"?


Sort of... and I don’t quite understand what happens with these shareholders...

But seriously, Embraer was never a market driver in the commercial aviation. All products are carefully reviewed with customers before launch. Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction.
Another thing to note is that PW is one of the owners of the E2 program. So, PW might as well be pushing for the PW1700 to come into market.

Pratt had a near obsession with powering the E-190/195. If the cost was modifying the PW1200G into the PW1700G, with potential upside, I can see the projected business case.

Pratt is going for an ecosystem of engines. This reduces the cost for each platform. The PW1500G has different subsystems to become the PW1900G, PW1200G to PW1700G, then PW815 and PW812.

Pratt obviously saw a market that didn't occur. Time to stop doubling down on a failed strategy. Time to meet scope.

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JonesNL
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:45 am

A bit off topic and might warrant its own thread: Are there any other potential air crafts(beside the 170-E2) that will be scope complaint? Can't imagine the M100 will have the entire segment for its own. Even though it is a low margin niche, 1000 possible units is nothing to scoff at in my book.
 
SkyLife
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:48 pm

Pilots at this point won’t give up scope, it works against us at the regional level. You’re effectively selling away the higher tiered pay and your job down the line. CLT has >50% departures by the regionals and regionals are doing flying that should be done with mainline airplanes, period. Regionals serve their purpose but scope limits exist to ensure that outsourcing is limited. CRJs flying 3hr+ flights isn’t so ‘regional’ in my opinion.

Embraer made a bold decision and frankly thought pilots would relax scope, not happening. Pilots have been stuck at the regional levels in the wake of 9/11 and 07-08’ hoping for the majors only to see more and more flying grow at the regional levels. Of course mainline doesn’t want to fly it at mainline, regionals staff it for less than half of the cost - yes the discrepancy is that much, not even including 401k. So please don’t belabor us in the 121 world, mainline wants it so bad and if it’s really that efficient mainline can fly it!
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:07 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
There should be a limit. Allowing the E2-175 or MRJ (original size) is not going to decrease mainline opportunities. If anything, the first group that allows it will benefit as the airline itself will grow and have additional demand.


Actually, the 76-seat regional jets did reduce mainline opportunities. We can compare United in market peak year 2019 to its predecessors (UA & CO) in another market peak year 2000. UA had a mainline fleet of 791 aircraft if we include the 14 grounded 737 MAX-9s as of year-end 2019. CO had 371 mainline jets at the end of 2000 while UA had 604 for a total of 975 -- so today's United is nearly 20% smaller at mainline than its predecessors, although the average aircraft size at mainline has increased somewhat.

And... when premerger UA retired its entire fleet of 737 Classics, that flying was mostly replaced by outsourced regional flying. So yeah, much of the regional growth of the past couple of decades did come at the cost of mainline jobs. Outsourced (or subsidiary) regional flying also eliminated mainline jobs at competitors. For example, the demise of the US Airways hub at PIT, which had mainline service on aircraft like the DC-9 or F100 to smaller markets throughout the Northeast (places like ERI, BGM, AVP, ITH, etc.) was partly due to competitors offering a near-mainline experience on regional jets to hubs like CVG, DTW, ORD, IAD, and CLE.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:24 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:

I can assure you that Embraer just did what they were asked to do.

I guess this is why we have the expression, "leap of faith"?


Sort of... and I don’t quite understand what happens with these shareholders...

But seriously, Embraer was never a market driver in the commercial aviation. All products are carefully reviewed with customers before launch. Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction.

Another thing to note is that PW is one of the owners of E2 program. So, PW might as well be pushing for the PW1700 to come into market.

"Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction." To loose hundreds of sales in the future? I dont think so!
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:36 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess this is why we have the expression, "leap of faith"?


Sort of... and I don’t quite understand what happens with these shareholders...

But seriously, Embraer was never a market driver in the commercial aviation. All products are carefully reviewed with customers before launch. Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction.

Another thing to note is that PW is one of the owners of E2 program. So, PW might as well be pushing for the PW1700 to come into market.

"Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction." To loose hundreds of sales in the future? I dont think so!

The only customers that count are ones willing to place launch orders. The lack of orders imply Embraer listened to the wrong people.

No adaptation since initial (now invalid) order? That is on Embraer. When there were zero orders confirmed, a course change should have occurred.

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Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:26 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess this is why we have the expression, "leap of faith"?


Sort of... and I don’t quite understand what happens with these shareholders...

But seriously, Embraer was never a market driver in the commercial aviation. All products are carefully reviewed with customers before launch. Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction.

Another thing to note is that PW is one of the owners of E2 program. So, PW might as well be pushing for the PW1700 to come into market.

"Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction." To loose hundreds of sales in the future? I dont think so!


As I said, there are more things that happen on closed doors between the people who control these companies. They might have some sort of strategy. We are not talking about a small grocery store here. There are multi-billion dollar companies involved on the E175-E2 program design and launch strategies. People here give too much credit for pilots unions, but there are powerful parts on the other side as well. Embraer is not alone in the E175-E2 project, three major risk partners are involved as well. Just to name two: UTC and Honeywell.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:52 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Surprising that Embraer didn't take into account how they designed themselves out of the U.S. Regional market which buys their jets in droves. Unless we see some sort of exception to scope clauses specifically for the E2's I doubt that we will see many if any stateside.

Offtopic: but could we see an E2 ever of the E145 to bring down some of the technologies from its larger E-jet counterparts?

Apparently they are letting the US market fall for a bigger aircaft. If they don't come with a scope compliant aircraft they will sure lose a few hundred aircraft sales around 2024 and up.


I guess they underestimated just how lead-footed the ALPA is.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:19 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:

Sort of... and I don’t quite understand what happens with these shareholders...

But seriously, Embraer was never a market driver in the commercial aviation. All products are carefully reviewed with customers before launch. Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction.

Another thing to note is that PW is one of the owners of E2 program. So, PW might as well be pushing for the PW1700 to come into market.

"Therefore, maybe major US customers told them to follow this direction." To loose hundreds of sales in the future? I dont think so!


As I said, there are more things that happen on closed doors between the people who control these companies. They might have some sort of strategy. We are not talking about a small grocery store here. There are multi-billion dollar companies involved on the E175-E2 program design and launch strategies. People here give too much credit for pilots unions, but there are powerful parts on the other side as well. Embraer is not alone in the E175-E2 project, three major risk partners are involved as well. Just to name two: UTC and Honeywell.

A statement of Mitsubishi in their MRJ videos. The US scope clauses will remain unchanged.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:26 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
As I said, there are more things that happen on closed doors between the people who control these companies. They might have some sort of strategy. We are not talking about a small grocery store here. There are multi-billion dollar companies involved on the E175-E2 program design and launch strategies. People here give too much credit for pilots unions, but there are powerful parts on the other side as well. Embraer is not alone in the E175-E2 project, three major risk partners are involved as well. Just to name two: UTC and Honeywell.

Right, and Airbus was no small grocery store when they talked themselves into doing the A380. They gambled big so they would have the VVLA space (they were targeting 650 pax with stretches to 850) all to themselves, and they did. I suppose EMB and partners thought they'd crack the scope clauses and have the A318/A319/B736/B737 space to themselves with a cheaper to build aircraft, and the gamble went craps. I can't help but think EMB really didn't do their game theory well enough and ask themselves "what do we do if scope is not cracked?" because we see no evidence of Plan B.
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Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
As I said, there are more things that happen on closed doors between the people who control these companies. They might have some sort of strategy. We are not talking about a small grocery store here. There are multi-billion dollar companies involved on the E175-E2 program design and launch strategies. People here give too much credit for pilots unions, but there are powerful parts on the other side as well. Embraer is not alone in the E175-E2 project, three major risk partners are involved as well. Just to name two: UTC and Honeywell.

Right, and Airbus was no small grocery store when they talked themselves into doing the A380. They gambled big so they would have the VVLA space (they were targeting 650 pax with stretches to 850) all to themselves, and they did. I suppose EMB and partners thought they'd crack the scope clauses and have the A318/A319/B736/B737 space to themselves with a cheaper to build aircraft, and the gamble went craps. I can't help but think EMB really didn't do their game theory well enough and ask themselves "what do we do if scope is not cracked?" because we see no evidence of Plan B.


You are right there. But my point is that there is a strategy behind all this. Maybe they are betting the 175E1 with new wing tip is good enough for current scope, and even that Embraer is to share the market in 50/50 with the M100 this is ok. Just notice that the 175E1 Plus has 6% fuel burn advantage over original 175E1. And that the 175E2 marketed fuel burn reduction is over the original model. Also, if the 175E2 sell only some units outside of the US, this is also ok given their bet on 190/195E2 models. It is a USD 1.7 bi program for all three models. I heard that there is interest on 175E2 on some European carriers, and also some asian as well. Therefore, the scenario, although challenging, is not that black for Embraer. Currently their biggest issue is to fight the over 100 seats market against Airbus muscles.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:30 pm

ScottB wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
There should be a limit. Allowing the E2-175 or MRJ (original size) is not going to decrease mainline opportunities. If anything, the first group that allows it will benefit as the airline itself will grow and have additional demand.


Actually, the 76-seat regional jets did reduce mainline opportunities. We can compare United in market peak year 2019 to its predecessors (UA & CO) in another market peak year 2000. UA had a mainline fleet of 791 aircraft if we include the 14 grounded 737 MAX-9s as of year-end 2019. CO had 371 mainline jets at the end of 2000 while UA had 604 for a total of 975 -- so today's United is nearly 20% smaller at mainline than its predecessors, although the average aircraft size at mainline has increased somewhat.

And... when premerger UA retired its entire fleet of 737 Classics, that flying was mostly replaced by outsourced regional flying. So yeah, much of the regional growth of the past couple of decades did come at the cost of mainline jobs. Outsourced (or subsidiary) regional flying also eliminated mainline jobs at competitors. For example, the demise of the US Airways hub at PIT, which had mainline service on aircraft like the DC-9 or F100 to smaller markets throughout the Northeast (places like ERI, BGM, AVP, ITH, etc.) was partly due to competitors offering a near-mainline experience on regional jets to hubs like CVG, DTW, ORD, IAD, and CLE.


In 2000 there were no E-175, E-190, CRJ-700 or CRJ-900's. Back in 2000 it was the Dash, Saab 340, etc. The larger RJ's have made a big impact on flying to small cities that could not fill a mainline plane, 737, MD80 and A-319,320. There is a large amount of hub feed from these small cities and the 76 seat RJ is very much needed to meet the demand.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:31 pm

airlineworker wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
It seems Embraer has no other choice than to do the E170-E2 to crack the US market.

But can you build that to do 76pax at 31" pitch and still meet scope weight? E175-E2 is really, really allot heavier.

If its less than 76 seats, does it really Matter? If it were 68-70 seats, it still would fill a need among the regionals.


Let me ask the question this way:

Can you build an 170-E2 that seats 76 in a single class config (19 rows of 2+2 @ 31") or seats 70 in a dual class config (6 seats as 2 rows of 2+1 @36", 64 seats as 16 rows 2+2 @31") with a range of 1200nm that meets Scope? Regional range that sacrifices premium seats to max out scope capacity.. or is shy 6 seats of scope to make some premium seats available.. Would this kind of plane be attractive if it could be built?
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ADent
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:47 pm

airlineworker wrote:
In 2000 there were no E-175, E-190, CRJ-700 or CRJ-900's. Back in 2000 it was the Dash, Saab 340, etc. The larger RJ's have made a big impact on flying to small cities that could not fill a mainline plane, 737, MD80 and A-319,320. There is a large amount of hub feed from these small cities and the 76 seat RJ is very much needed to meet the demand.


But there were 109 seat 737-200s and 119 seat 727-100s.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:17 pm

ADent wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
In 2000 there were no E-175, E-190, CRJ-700 or CRJ-900's. Back in 2000 it was the Dash, Saab 340, etc. The larger RJ's have made a big impact on flying to small cities that could not fill a mainline plane, 737, MD80 and A-319,320. There is a large amount of hub feed from these small cities and the 76 seat RJ is very much needed to meet the demand.


But there were 109 seat 737-200s and 119 seat 727-100s.


There were the Fokker 70/100, but they were done by 1997.
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CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:37 pm

airlineworker wrote:
ScottB wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
There should be a limit. Allowing the E2-175 or MRJ (original size) is not going to decrease mainline opportunities. If anything, the first group that allows it will benefit as the airline itself will grow and have additional demand.


Actually, the 76-seat regional jets did reduce mainline opportunities. We can compare United in market peak year 2019 to its predecessors (UA & CO) in another market peak year 2000. UA had a mainline fleet of 791 aircraft if we include the 14 grounded 737 MAX-9s as of year-end 2019. CO had 371 mainline jets at the end of 2000 while UA had 604 for a total of 975 -- so today's United is nearly 20% smaller at mainline than its predecessors, although the average aircraft size at mainline has increased somewhat.

And... when premerger UA retired its entire fleet of 737 Classics, that flying was mostly replaced by outsourced regional flying. So yeah, much of the regional growth of the past couple of decades did come at the cost of mainline jobs. Outsourced (or subsidiary) regional flying also eliminated mainline jobs at competitors. For example, the demise of the US Airways hub at PIT, which had mainline service on aircraft like the DC-9 or F100 to smaller markets throughout the Northeast (places like ERI, BGM, AVP, ITH, etc.) was partly due to competitors offering a near-mainline experience on regional jets to hubs like CVG, DTW, ORD, IAD, and CLE.


In 2000 there were no E-175, E-190, CRJ-700 or CRJ-900's. Back in 2000 it was the Dash, Saab 340, etc. The larger RJ's have made a big impact on flying to small cities that could not fill a mainline plane, 737, MD80 and A-319,320. There is a large amount of hub feed from these small cities and the 76 seat RJ is very much needed to meet the demand.


You didn’t read what you quoted at all did you?
 
PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:27 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Lets pretend Scope isn't a issue. Most contract regionals dont pay for fuel. And the difference overhaul costs are huge. Between the current version and the E2.. Engine different, landing gear different... there would be no cost advantage for a current US regional with 175’s to fly the E2


It is said that the E1 pilots can transition to an E2 with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time. However, the closed-loop, FBW flight control system is completely new and has some "stability enhancements" (shades of MCAS?) to compensate for the smaller fin and horizontal stabilizers (to save weight). You'd think that sim time would be in order to train for the potential the "ghost in the machine" problems that seem to hide in FCS development testing, but pop up unexpectedly in revenue service?

And you are right, from an MRO standpoint, the E2 might as well be a completely new type of aircraft. The engines, brakes, FBW FCS, flight control surfaces, landing gear, hydraulics actuators, et. al. are different from the E1. Heck, add on the 4.5 tons of empty weight and even the tow bars have to be different? (Probably.)


The full FBW system allows the fin and horizontal stabilizer to be smaller. And the wing to be placed more forward on the fuselage. It’s one of the main reasons why full FBW is beneficial. It’s a normal design thing not a compensation like MCAS.

I’m not sure there’s anything wrong with the concept of MCAS either, it just needs to be programmed properly.
Last edited by PPVRA on Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DDR
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:33 pm

Pilots at AA and I assume DL and UA will not fold on scope. And from the pilots I've talked to, they really have no desire to fly large regional jets because the pay would suck. Most have already spent time at regionals and don't want to be flying those planes again for crappy pay. I think the 717, A319, and A220 will be the smallest mainline aircraft for a very long time.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
As I said, there are more things that happen on closed doors between the people who control these companies. They might have some sort of strategy. We are not talking about a small grocery store here. There are multi-billion dollar companies involved on the E175-E2 program design and launch strategies. People here give too much credit for pilots unions, but there are powerful parts on the other side as well. Embraer is not alone in the E175-E2 project, three major risk partners are involved as well. Just to name two: UTC and Honeywell.

Right, and Airbus was no small grocery store when they talked themselves into doing the A380. They gambled big so they would have the VVLA space (they were targeting 650 pax with stretches to 850) all to themselves, and they did. I suppose EMB and partners thought they'd crack the scope clauses and have the A318/A319/B736/B737 space to themselves with a cheaper to build aircraft, and the gamble went craps. I can't help but think EMB really didn't do their game theory well enough and ask themselves "what do we do if scope is not cracked?" because we see no evidence of Plan B.

It is time for plan B a la Mitsubishi's M100. I proposed upthread an E2-170. Not exactly that, but analogous to the M100 where the body is shrunk and wingspan reduced to get back into the scope market.

Right now we are in crisis. No airline must force scope as the E-175 and M100 will meet scope. Any judge would be demanding to know why this must be immediately settled and... no one could prove it.

Time to beat the M100 to market.
They failed to open scope in 7 years, I do not see it opening soon

Lightsaber
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PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:39 pm

DDR wrote:
Pilots at AA and I assume DL and UA will not fold on scope. And from the pilots I've talked to, they really have no desire to fly large regional jets because the pay would suck. Most have already spent time at regionals and don't want to be flying those planes again for crappy pay. I think the 717, A319, and A220 will be the smallest mainline aircraft for a very long time.


I’d be willing to bet you can easily hire pilots off the regionals to fly those airplanes even at the lower rates.

I’d also bet it’s better than furlough.
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:50 pm

PPVRA wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Lets pretend Scope isn't a issue. Most contract regionals dont pay for fuel. And the difference overhaul costs are huge. Between the current version and the E2.. Engine different, landing gear different... there would be no cost advantage for a current US regional with 175’s to fly the E2


It is said that the E1 pilots can transition to an E2 with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time. However, the closed-loop, FBW flight control system is completely new and has some "stability enhancements" (shades of MCAS?) to compensate for the smaller fin and horizontal stabilizers (to save weight). You'd think that sim time would be in order to train for the potential the "ghost in the machine" problems that seem to hide in FCS development testing, but pop up unexpectedly in revenue service?

And you are right, from an MRO standpoint, the E2 might as well be a completely new type of aircraft. The engines, brakes, FBW FCS, flight control surfaces, landing gear, hydraulics actuators, et. al. are different from the E1. Heck, add on the 4.5 tons of empty weight and even the tow bars have to be different? (Probably.)


The full FBW system allows the fin and horizontal stabilizer to be smaller. And the wing to be placed more forward on the fuselage. It’s one of the main reasons why full FBW are beneficial. It’s a normal design thing not a compensation like MCAS.

I’m not sure there’s anything wrong with the concept of MCAS either, it just needs to be programmed properly.


Here's an FBW anomaly incident that very nearly lost an American Eagle E175E1 flight out of ATL last November:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/230478

The new closed-loop FBW in the E2 has different control laws than the previous system used in the E1 and I would expect the aircraft would handle very differently if the system failed similar to the above example due to the reduced effectiveness of the smaller vertical stabilizer, rudder and horizontal stabilizers. Considering that regionals are putting FO's in the right seat with as little as 1,500 hours, with minimal time in complex, computer-controlled aircraft and many of those pilots have been promoted to Captain in less than 5 years, just 2.5 days of ground school, with no sim time is tempting fate.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:02 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

It is said that the E1 pilots can transition to an E2 with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time. However, the closed-loop, FBW flight control system is completely new and has some "stability enhancements" (shades of MCAS?) to compensate for the smaller fin and horizontal stabilizers (to save weight). You'd think that sim time would be in order to train for the potential the "ghost in the machine" problems that seem to hide in FCS development testing, but pop up unexpectedly in revenue service?

And you are right, from an MRO standpoint, the E2 might as well be a completely new type of aircraft. The engines, brakes, FBW FCS, flight control surfaces, landing gear, hydraulics actuators, et. al. are different from the E1. Heck, add on the 4.5 tons of empty weight and even the tow bars have to be different? (Probably.)


The full FBW system allows the fin and horizontal stabilizer to be smaller. And the wing to be placed more forward on the fuselage. It’s one of the main reasons why full FBW are beneficial. It’s a normal design thing not a compensation like MCAS.

I’m not sure there’s anything wrong with the concept of MCAS either, it just needs to be programmed properly.


Here's an FBW anomaly incident that very nearly lost an American Eagle E175E1 flight out of ATL last November:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/230478

The new closed-loop FBW in the E2 has different control laws than the previous system used in the E1 and I would expect the aircraft would handle very differently if the system failed similar to the above example due to the reduced effectiveness of the smaller vertical stabilizer, rudder and horizontal stabilizers. Considering that regionals are putting FO's in the right seat with as little as 1,500 hours, with minimal time in complex, computer-controlled aircraft and many of those pilots have been promoted to Captain in less than 5 years, just 2.5 days of ground school, with no sim time is tempting fate.


Up until covid, most regionals would upgrade people as soon as they met the regulatory 1,000 hours of 121 SIC time, or around 18 months. Nothing like a 24 year old with 2,500 hours and a year and a half of airline experience flying with a brand new 23 year old first officer straight from a C-172. That’s the extreme situation, but 5 years would be considered a long time in the regionals to upgrade (until a month or so ago).
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:18 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
There were the Fokker 70/100, but they were done by 1997.


Manufacturing had ended, but AA and US still had substantial F100 fleets until 2002.

ADent wrote:
But there were 109 seat 737-200s and 119 seat 727-100s.


There were also 100-seat DC-9-30s and just under 100-seat F100s.

airlineworker wrote:
The larger RJ's have made a big impact on flying to small cities that could not fill a mainline plane, 737, MD80 and A-319,320. There is a large amount of hub feed from these small cities and the 76 seat RJ is very much needed to meet the demand.


The 76-seat RJ is often used to provide greater frequency in markets which used to support mainline service at lower frequency. A market like IAH-BRO used to be mostly mainline. Now it's all regional jets. UA had RJs on IAH-ATL even before the current crisis. How is ATL a small city?
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
As I said, there are more things that happen on closed doors between the people who control these companies. They might have some sort of strategy. We are not talking about a small grocery store here. There are multi-billion dollar companies involved on the E175-E2 program design and launch strategies. People here give too much credit for pilots unions, but there are powerful parts on the other side as well. Embraer is not alone in the E175-E2 project, three major risk partners are involved as well. Just to name two: UTC and Honeywell.

Right, and Airbus was no small grocery store when they talked themselves into doing the A380. They gambled big so they would have the VVLA space (they were targeting 650 pax with stretches to 850) all to themselves, and they did. I suppose EMB and partners thought they'd crack the scope clauses and have the A318/A319/B736/B737 space to themselves with a cheaper to build aircraft, and the gamble went craps. I can't help but think EMB really didn't do their game theory well enough and ask themselves "what do we do if scope is not cracked?" because we see no evidence of Plan B.

It is time for plan B a la Mitsubishi's M100. I proposed upthread an E2-170. Not exactly that, but analogous to the M100 where the body is shrunk and wingspan reduced to get back into the scope market.

Right now we are in crisis. No airline must force scope as the E-175 and M100 will meet scope. Any judge would be demanding to know why this must be immediately settled and... no one could prove it.

Time to beat the M100 to market.
They failed to open scope in 7 years, I do not see it opening soon

Lightsaber


I see that a E170-E2 with maybe the GE passport engine maybe a possibility. And that could be put very fast in the market.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:51 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

It is said that the E1 pilots can transition to an E2 with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time. However, the closed-loop, FBW flight control system is completely new and has some "stability enhancements" (shades of MCAS?) to compensate for the smaller fin and horizontal stabilizers (to save weight). You'd think that sim time would be in order to train for the potential the "ghost in the machine" problems that seem to hide in FCS development testing, but pop up unexpectedly in revenue service?

And you are right, from an MRO standpoint, the E2 might as well be a completely new type of aircraft. The engines, brakes, FBW FCS, flight control surfaces, landing gear, hydraulics actuators, et. al. are different from the E1. Heck, add on the 4.5 tons of empty weight and even the tow bars have to be different? (Probably.)


The full FBW system allows the fin and horizontal stabilizer to be smaller. And the wing to be placed more forward on the fuselage. It’s one of the main reasons why full FBW are beneficial. It’s a normal design thing not a compensation like MCAS.

I’m not sure there’s anything wrong with the concept of MCAS either, it just needs to be programmed properly.


Here's an FBW anomaly incident that very nearly lost an American Eagle E175E1 flight out of ATL last November:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/230478

The new closed-loop FBW in the E2 has different control laws than the previous system used in the E1 and I would expect the aircraft would handle very differently if the system failed similar to the above example due to the reduced effectiveness of the smaller vertical stabilizer, rudder and horizontal stabilizers. Considering that regionals are putting FO's in the right seat with as little as 1,500 hours, with minimal time in complex, computer-controlled aircraft and many of those pilots have been promoted to Captain in less than 5 years, just 2.5 days of ground school, with no sim time is tempting fate.


That flight was not FBW related at all. It was the trim system, which is electrical on every airliner, even those without any FBW like an ERJ145 or CRJ.
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PPVRA
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:59 pm

Here’s more detail on what happened to the American Eagle flight mentioned above:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4cef2f7b
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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:04 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Right, and Airbus was no small grocery store when they talked themselves into doing the A380. They gambled big so they would have the VVLA space (they were targeting 650 pax with stretches to 850) all to themselves, and they did. I suppose EMB and partners thought they'd crack the scope clauses and have the A318/A319/B736/B737 space to themselves with a cheaper to build aircraft, and the gamble went craps. I can't help but think EMB really didn't do their game theory well enough and ask themselves "what do we do if scope is not cracked?" because we see no evidence of Plan B.

It is time for plan B a la Mitsubishi's M100. I proposed upthread an E2-170. Not exactly that, but analogous to the M100 where the body is shrunk and wingspan reduced to get back into the scope market.

Right now we are in crisis. No airline must force scope as the E-175 and M100 will meet scope. Any judge would be demanding to know why this must be immediately settled and... no one could prove it.

Time to beat the M100 to market.
They failed to open scope in 7 years, I do not see it opening soon

Lightsaber


I see that a E170-E2 with maybe the GE passport engine maybe a possibility. And that could be put very fast in the market.

Why are they waiting?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:13 pm

Right now, the Passport is designed for one type—the Global 7500. A high altitude (F410-510) long range plane that won’t see 6,000 cycles. Not exactly RJ.
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:15 pm

Why make a move because a competitor that is still on the drawing board? And yet you already have a product with a very low ownership cost to offer and with single digit difference in fuel burn?
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:19 pm

ADent wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
In 2000 there were no E-175, E-190, CRJ-700 or CRJ-900's. Back in 2000 it was the Dash, Saab 340, etc. The larger RJ's have made a big impact on flying to small cities that could not fill a mainline plane, 737, MD80 and A-319,320. There is a large amount of hub feed from these small cities and the 76 seat RJ is very much needed to meet the demand.


But there were 109 seat 737-200s and 119 seat 727-100s.


Both too big for small city routes. Either 50 seats or 109 seats, nothing in between. RJ's have made service to cities that never had a chance with mainline.
 
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:35 am

Here are my closing comments on the E175E2:

1) It is probably going to be a fine airplane.
2) It offers lots of advanced tech and should be more reliable thanks to its predictive maintenance self-monitoring.
3) It will be more fuel efficient and less polluting than its predecessor.
4) Companies sometimes misjudge market behavior, which unfortunately Embraer did in the case of the E175E2.
5) The E175E2 does not currently meet the needs of their target market (US regionals) due to being overweight.
6) The plane is overweight due to airframe & wing changes needed to accomodate its state-of-the-art P&W engines.
7) The likelihood of major US airlines to change their scope clauses just to buy the E175E2 seems remote.
8) I question if E1 pilots should be able to convert to E2's simply with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time.
9) All this said, I wish Embraer success in finding a robust market for these aircraft.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:04 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
Here are my closing comments on the E175E2:

1) It is probably going to be a fine airplane.
2) It offers lots of advanced tech and should be more reliable thanks to its predictive maintenance self-monitoring.
3) It will be more fuel efficient and less polluting than its predecessor.
4) Companies sometimes misjudge market behavior, which unfortunately Embraer did in the case of the E175E2.
5) The E175E2 does not currently meet the needs of their target market (US regionals) due to being overweight.
6) The plane is overweight due to airframe & wing changes needed to accomodate its state-of-the-art P&W engines.
7) The likelihood of major US airlines to change their scope clauses just to buy the E175E2 seems remote.
8) I question if E1 pilots should be able to convert to E2's simply with just 2.5 days of ground school and no sim time.
9) All this said, I wish Embraer success in finding a robust market for these aircraft.

Airlines in Europe.
 
argentinevol98
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:58 am

Is there a chance we see E190-E2 and E195-E2 orders at mainline instead? Delta has seemingly doubled down on that market size with the 717 and A221 fleets. From what I understand a lot of this is to replace regional flying. UA and AA have nothing on order in this market segment-size and only AA has aircraft more or less in that size (E190-E1 that are on their way out anyway). Could they pick up on the DL strategy instead of looking for more 76 seat RJs? If so, could Embraer end up somewhat ok anyway? If they could win a theoretical order at either carrier over the A220 that would, perhaps, off-set what ever loss they'll take on the E175-E2. I mean it looks like we have a potential future of either buying up M100s as the only option (which would give Mitsubishi leverage on price) or up-gauging some regional flying to small mainline aircraft (smaller than the A319s/73Gs at UA and AA right now).
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:51 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
Is there a chance we see E190-E2 and E195-E2 orders at mainline instead? Delta has seemingly doubled down on that market size with the 717 and A221 fleets. From what I understand a lot of this is to replace regional flying. UA and AA have nothing on order in this market segment-size and only AA has aircraft more or less in that size (E190-E1 that are on their way out anyway). Could they pick up on the DL strategy instead of looking for more 76 seat RJs? If so, could Embraer end up somewhat ok anyway? If they could win a theoretical order at either carrier over the A220 that would, perhaps, off-set what ever loss they'll take on the E175-E2. I mean it looks like we have a potential future of either buying up M100s as the only option (which would give Mitsubishi leverage on price) or up-gauging some regional flying to small mainline aircraft (smaller than the A319s/73Gs at UA and AA right now).

I could see the E2-195 at mainline. It is far more likely for UA or AA to have mainline fly the larger E2 than scope relief or mainline fly the E2-175.

The E175 remains an alternative to the M100. Mitsubishi couldn't be too greedy.

Lightsaber
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argentinevol98
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
I could see the E2-195 at mainline. It is far more likely for UA or AA to have mainline fly the larger E2 than scope relief or mainline fly the E2-175.

The E175 remains an alternative to the M100. Mitsubishi couldn't be too greedy.

Lightsaber


That makes a lot of sense. The E2 has from all accounts had a great EIS and if the Boeing deal finally gets all the proper regulatory approvals the business case may be seen as stronger in AA and UA HQs. It would have to been seen how aggressive Airbus and Embraer/Boeing would get when it comes to pricing for an A220/E2 mainline sale. If the orders are made to relieve regional flying I am not sure that the A220s extra performance benefits (mainly range) will be as big of an advantage as they may be in other sales campaigns (this is not to say that either airline would ignore that-just that it may be less of a decisive factor). The E2's slightly lighter weights may be a plus.

Good point on the E175. Kind of hadn't thought about that. I guess GE would be quite happy to supply engines keep the E1 line open since they're locked out of the E2s. Does anyone know what the theoretical fuel burn and performance differences between the M100 and the enhanced E1 E175s? (I know we can't have actual figures yet and Mitsubishi has been a mess so any theoretical numbers may be even less reliable than normal).

Another question-should Embraer have lengthened the E190-E2 to better compete with the A220-100? The A221 seems slightly heavy and has perhaps unnecessary performance (thinking particularly range-wise) for it's size. A stretched E190-E2 might do better in that market. Seems like the current model is too short to attract too many orders. Far too large for US regionals obviously and too small for mainline (it seems based on the AA and B6 experience with the E1). I don't think that a longer E190-E2 would necessarily cannibalize the E195-E2 and may, in an ironic way, alleviate the scope clause problem indirectly better (if it is the smallest viable mainline sized aircraft it could take away some of the need for 76 seaters). Any thoughts from better connected and informed minds?

Hope this doesn't seem much off-topic. I mention it because I struggle to see how Embraer gets the E175-E2 under scope weight nor do I see it possible for the scope weights to change (unless it is somehow forced in bankruptcy proceedings). An E170-E2 might work but the size probably won't be ideal for the market (e.g. not a 2 class 76 seater) and I imagine that the E1 will eventually be too "old-tech" to be competitive. Selling the legacies on the bigger jets for mainline to reduce regional dependency could be a plan b.
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Jungleneer
Posts: 56
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:40 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I could see the E2-195 at mainline. It is far more likely for UA or AA to have mainline fly the larger E2 than scope relief or mainline fly the E2-175.

The E175 remains an alternative to the M100. Mitsubishi couldn't be too greedy.

Lightsaber


That makes a lot of sense. The E2 has from all accounts had a great EIS and if the Boeing deal finally gets all the proper regulatory approvals the business case may be seen as stronger in AA and UA HQs. It would have to been seen how aggressive Airbus and Embraer/Boeing would get when it comes to pricing for an A220/E2 mainline sale. If the orders are made to relieve regional flying I am not sure that the A220s extra performance benefits (mainly range) will be as big of an advantage as they may be in other sales campaigns (this is not to say that either airline would ignore that-just that it may be less of a decisive factor). The E2's slightly lighter weights may be a plus.

Good point on the E175. Kind of hadn't thought about that. I guess GE would be quite happy to supply engines keep the E1 line open since they're locked out of the E2s. Does anyone know what the theoretical fuel burn and performance differences between the M100 and the enhanced E1 E175s? (I know we can't have actual figures yet and Mitsubishi has been a mess so any theoretical numbers may be even less reliable than normal).

Another question-should Embraer have lengthened the E190-E2 to better compete with the A220-100? The A221 seems slightly heavy and has perhaps unnecessary performance (thinking particularly range-wise) for it's size. A stretched E190-E2 might do better in that market. Seems like the current model is too short to attract too many orders. Far too large for US regionals obviously and too small for mainline (it seems based on the AA and B6 experience with the E1). I don't think that a longer E190-E2 would necessarily cannibalize the E195-E2 and may, in an ironic way, alleviate the scope clause problem indirectly better (if it is the smallest viable mainline sized aircraft it could take away some of the need for 76 seaters). Any thoughts from better connected and informed minds?

Hope this doesn't seem much off-topic. I mention it because I struggle to see how Embraer gets the E175-E2 under scope weight nor do I see it possible for the scope weights to change (unless it is somehow forced in bankruptcy proceedings). An E170-E2 might work but the size probably won't be ideal for the market (e.g. not a 2 class 76 seater) and I imagine that the E1 will eventually be too "old-tech" to be competitive. Selling the legacies on the bigger jets for mainline to reduce regional dependency could be a plan b.


Your points are very good. As regarding of the E1 Plus being old tech, this could be true for the engine, but not for the other systems and airframe. The E1 Plus could have its interior updated to be the same as E2 (i.e. overhead bins). Avionics, the E1 just received a major upgrade, while keeping the same displays, it has Synthetic Vision, the new volumetric radar, and the same Flight Management System present on E2, which is an airline class FMS, much better than the business jet FMS from original E1, A220 and MRJ. It provides a very fast turn around time and very fluid cabin flow.
The FBW is open loop, but the MRJ is open loop as well. Therefore, I don't see it as too old tech when comparing with MRJ.
The engine, although old, the CF34-8E is not a maintenance hog as the -10E.
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