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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:18 pm

Jetport wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Jetport wrote:

Alright Lightsaber, I'll bite, you keep pumping the M100 for some unknown reason. The Mitsubishi M100 is many years from entering service and will likely will be a hanger queen if ever enters service at all. The odds of the M100 being a viable commercial aircraft appear to be very low, based on the program and company history. Do you have some insight or reason for your inexplicable confidence in the M100?

The program had issues. I look at this from the big picture, there is a competitor.

As to insight, I have contacts in the industry. There have been numerous issues. My first exposure was their initial bid for an engine that... was a joke. They fixed that.

Technically, I really like the aircraft. As a passenger, it fixes the issues I wanted fixed. From a predictive maintenance/avionics standpoint, it sets the standard for RJs.

The M90 is amazingly delayed. That is obvious. But Mitsubishi keeps fixing the issues. The Hondajet was even more delayed. Yet it happened. Hondajet first flight in 2003, delivery in 2015, now a top product in the category.

The Japanese aircraft design culture seems to not seek experienced help until they hit a major delay. However, they eventually produce reliable aircraft.

This thread is on expanding scope to allow the E2-175. With two alternatives (E175, M100), why would scope be reduced?

Now, the MRJ program will never make a profit.

I am of the opinion it will sell, enter service, and be supported by the purchased CRJ maintenance network. I am of the opinion Mitsubishi selected good vendors. I am not of the opinion the competitiveness should be dismissed.

Lightsaber


Thank you for the answers and insights. As to your question why scope would be reduced, I think you answered it. The current E175 qualifies and M100 will qualify, why lock out a more modern and efficient aircraft with the same number of seats just because of weight? It is an irrational position, considering the two aircraft that meet scope perform the same function, just less efficiently. Of course unions have never been known for rational behavior, just maximizing pay and benefits and protecting the poorest performing employees.

We come full circle. The scope weight and seats is the only dividing line between outsourced and in house labor. It is actually rational for the unions to maximize dues at mainline.

Let us take a trip down memory lane. The initial maximum takeoff weight of the DC-9 was 90,700lb.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-9

To myself, it seems rational to reserve DC-9 and more capable aircraft for mainline.

Heck, a WW2 "Heavy Bomber" had a MTOW of 65,000lb.

86,000 seems fair.

The original regional had no domestic first seats. Now that they do, the mainline crews (not just pilots) will defend their position.

The M100 has to give up a row of J+ to meet scope efficiently. I would prefer it over my last 5 regional flights (all CRJ variants). The E-175 needs predictive maintenance (retrifitable) and much more efficient engines (hence, the E2).

I'm not seeing the irrational behavior. By no means am I pro union. I believe in the rule of law which means contracts. Contracts are I give you something and I receive something.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
embraer175e2
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Posts: 291
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:42 pm

Jetport wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Jetport wrote:

Alright Lightsaber, I'll bite, you keep pumping the M100 for some unknown reason. The Mitsubishi M100 is many years from entering service and will likely will be a hanger queen if ever enters service at all. The odds of the M100 being a viable commercial aircraft appear to be very low, based on the program and company history. Do you have some insight or reason for your inexplicable confidence in the M100?

The program had issues. I look at this from the big picture, there is a competitor.

As to insight, I have contacts in the industry. There have been numerous issues. My first exposure was their initial bid for an engine that... was a joke. They fixed that.

Technically, I really like the aircraft. As a passenger, it fixes the issues I wanted fixed. From a predictive maintenance/avionics standpoint, it sets the standard for RJs.

The M90 is amazingly delayed. That is obvious. But Mitsubishi keeps fixing the issues. The Hondajet was even more delayed. Yet it happened. Hondajet first flight in 2003, delivery in 2015, now a top product in the category.

The Japanese aircraft design culture seems to not seek experienced help until they hit a major delay. However, they eventually produce reliable aircraft.

This thread is on expanding scope to allow the E2-175. With two alternatives (E175, M100), why would scope be reduced?

Now, the MRJ program will never make a profit.

I am of the opinion it will sell, enter service, and be supported by the purchased CRJ maintenance network. I am of the opinion Mitsubishi selected good vendors. I am not of the opinion the competitiveness should be dismissed.

Lightsaber


Thank you for the answers and insights. As to your question why scope would be reduced, I think you answered it. The current E175 qualifies and M100 will qualify, why lock out a more modern and efficient aircraft with the same number of seats just because of weight? It is an irrational position, considering the two aircraft that meet scope perform the same function, just less efficiently. Of course unions have never been known for rational behavior, just maximizing pay and benefits and protecting the poorest performing employees.

Its law.
 
oosnowrat
Posts: 208
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:

3 50-seater a day could be replaced by 1 100-seater (like the A220-100) a day (the 3rd rotation customers will most likely be lost).


Do you really see mainline carriers opening up a slug of stations in flyover country for one flight a day?

Never said "opening stations", I said "converting cities from 3 50-seaters a day to 1 100-seater a day". Subcontract every aspect of ground ops and you can sustain a single daily operation; I'm sure it's already happening.


Oh that's rich. Outsource every other job to the lowest bidder, but not the cockpit - that's sacred. :banghead:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:34 am

Not irrational in the least, if instead of just repeating your position, you looked at scope rules from the view of the two actors—companies and pilot unions.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:59 am

oosnowrat wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:

Do you really see mainline carriers opening up a slug of stations in flyover country for one flight a day?

Never said "opening stations", I said "converting cities from 3 50-seaters a day to 1 100-seater a day". Subcontract every aspect of ground ops and you can sustain a single daily operation; I'm sure it's already happening.


Oh that's rich. Outsource every other job to the lowest bidder, but not the cockpit - that's sacred. :banghead:

Then just let the airlines pull out of Small Hole in the Backwoods and take the bus to the next airport that offers service.

Geez, if airlines can only sustain 1 profitable flight a day, why force them into multiple non-profitable flights a day? Economics-101, offer and demand: if demand is not there, neither is offer.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:29 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:

Do you really see mainline carriers opening up a slug of stations in flyover country for one flight a day?

Never said "opening stations", I said "converting cities from 3 50-seaters a day to 1 100-seater a day". Subcontract every aspect of ground ops and you can sustain a single daily operation; I'm sure it's already happening.


Oh that's rich. Outsource every other job to the lowest bidder, but not the cockpit - that's sacred. :banghead:

Other factors that come and play a role when selecting an operator: one should " outsource" it to a safe operator and reliable operator not only to the cheapest one.
That's no good for aviation.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:02 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
The JetBlue move to a220 was already a big hit for embraer on the us market. Embraer seems to make a bigger chance on non us carriers.


I agree with the sentiment that Embraer's best bet is outside of the US for the E190/E195-E2 but I wouldn't count them out yet totally for a blue-chip US order. If UA or AA feel they need to make a move to match DL's 717/A220 market space they'll be realistically limited to the E2 or the A220. If the Boeing/Embraer JV meets final regulatory approval then I see Boeing being aggressive in attempting to limit A220 market share. The E2s seem to be fine jets (as is the A220) and could be attractive (with the right incentives) to either UA or AA (or perhaps even someone else). That's if the scope clauses prove to be an insurmountable issue for both the airlines and the OEMs.

Jungleneer wrote:

Your points are very good. As regarding of the E1 Plus being old tech, this could be true for the engine, but not for the other systems and airframe. The E1 Plus could have its interior updated to be the same as E2 (i.e. overhead bins). Avionics, the E1 just received a major upgrade, while keeping the same displays, it has Synthetic Vision, the new volumetric radar, and the same Flight Management System present on E2, which is an airline class FMS, much better than the business jet FMS from original E1, A220 and MRJ. It provides a very fast turn around time and very fluid cabin flow.
The FBW is open loop, but the MRJ is open loop as well. Therefore, I don't see it as too old tech when comparing with MRJ.
The engine, although old, the CF34-8E is not a maintenance hog as the -10E.


Thanks for the info. I didn't know that about the E1 plus systems. That'll keep it a fairly competitive product for a good time I imagine unless fuel prices spike back up again and the older engine tech proves to be significantly thirstier than the Spacejet's newer PWs.

Which comes to one of my initial questions for this topic. Could a Boeing Embraer joint venture influence embraer jet sales on the u.s. market?



Unfortunately? NO! The Limit has nothing to DO with Boeing. What it Has to do with? Are the USA Majors ready to risk labor Troubles, up to and including Pilot Strikes to move the limits set by the Pilots? I do not think so.. There are other Manufacturers waiting in the wings to sell airplanes that won't cross the line, and those include Embraer who would sell even more Non-E2's ,
 
dstblj52
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:49 am

oosnowrat wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:

Do you really see mainline carriers opening up a slug of stations in flyover country for one flight a day?

Never said "opening stations", I said "converting cities from 3 50-seaters a day to 1 100-seater a day". Subcontract every aspect of ground ops and you can sustain a single daily operation; I'm sure it's already happening.


Oh that's rich. Outsource every other job to the lowest bidder, but not the cockpit - that's sacred. :banghead:

Both UA and AA mainline ground handling scope clauses regulate when mainline labor must be used at a station, these requirements do not require all stations with mainline aircraft to be mainline handled, just that all stations with more than a certain number of mainline flights be handled by mainline crews
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:11 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:

I agree with the sentiment that Embraer's best bet is outside of the US for the E190/E195-E2 but I wouldn't count them out yet totally for a blue-chip US order. If UA or AA feel they need to make a move to match DL's 717/A220 market space they'll be realistically limited to the E2 or the A220. If the Boeing/Embraer JV meets final regulatory approval then I see Boeing being aggressive in attempting to limit A220 market share. The E2s seem to be fine jets (as is the A220) and could be attractive (with the right incentives) to either UA or AA (or perhaps even someone else). That's if the scope clauses prove to be an insurmountable issue for both the airlines and the OEMs.



Thanks for the info. I didn't know that about the E1 plus systems. That'll keep it a fairly competitive product for a good time I imagine unless fuel prices spike back up again and the older engine tech proves to be significantly thirstier than the Spacejet's newer PWs.

Which comes to one of my initial questions for this topic. Could a Boeing Embraer joint venture influence embraer jet sales on the u.s. market?



Unfortunately? NO! The Limit has nothing to DO with Boeing. What it Has to do with? Are the USA Majors ready to risk labor Troubles, up to and including Pilot Strikes to move the limits set by the Pilots? I do not think so.. There are other Manufacturers waiting in the wings to sell airplanes that won't cross the line, and those include Embraer who would sell even more Non-E2's ,

But what about the efficiency on the non E2's?
They would prefer mrj's!!!
 
CaptainObvious1
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:27 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Which comes to one of my initial questions for this topic. Could a Boeing Embraer joint venture influence embraer jet sales on the u.s. market?



Unfortunately? NO! The Limit has nothing to DO with Boeing. What it Has to do with? Are the USA Majors ready to risk labor Troubles, up to and including Pilot Strikes to move the limits set by the Pilots? I do not think so.. There are other Manufacturers waiting in the wings to sell airplanes that won't cross the line, and those include Embraer who would sell even more Non-E2's ,

But what about the efficiency on the non E2's?
They would prefer mrj's!!!


They would prefer an aircraft which fits in the known scope limits so they can place them at their regional partners versus at mainline.

Captain Obvious.
 
embraer175e2
Topic Author
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:17 pm

CaptainObvious1 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:


Unfortunately? NO! The Limit has nothing to DO with Boeing. What it Has to do with? Are the USA Majors ready to risk labor Troubles, up to and including Pilot Strikes to move the limits set by the Pilots? I do not think so.. There are other Manufacturers waiting in the wings to sell airplanes that won't cross the line, and those include Embraer who would sell even more Non-E2's ,

But what about the efficiency on the non E2's?
They would prefer mrj's!!!


They would prefer an aircraft which fits in the known scope limits so they can place them at their regional partners versus at mainline.

Captain Obvious.

Yes sir.
 
iceberg210
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:25 pm

lightsaber wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
UA is repurposing CRJ-700 as premium 50 seaters.
Recertified as CRJ-550:
https://hub.united.com/united-regional- ... 53393.html

Eventually there will need to be a replacement. But DL negotiated for replacing 50 seaters partially with 76 seaters:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vision-7 ... gic-miller

The addition of the 717s actually allowed Delta to acquire 70 more large regional jets, while only reducing the number of 50-seat regional jets.

If you read the charts, Delta has significantly cut 50-seat RJ flying.

I do not think 37 to 50 seat flying is gone, I just think the market must shrink for another 7 to 10 years before airlines will buy new again.

The stable RJ market is the 76 seat market. I would like to see an Embraer product, but that stretch and 5m wingspan addition added too much weight.

Lightsaber

The problem with the CRJ-550 is that, I believe, none of them are new-built and all are conversions from CRJ-700s.
Reconfiguring aircraft for more or less seats is common occurence; but that doesn't help the aircraft manufacturers with selling more new planes.

Agreed that these are not new build. However, with a limit of Validity of 80,000 cycles and 120,000 hours, the CRJ-550s will fly for a long time.

As an aerospace R&D engineer, of course I want new development. But as I noted, this is a while away before demand is sufficient.

The market for 50 seaters was saturated after an early surge due to the ULCC model. 50 seat service declined. The RJ model needs premium traffic and I have trouble coming up with a 50 seat RJ concept business case today.

Please recall the original 50 seat jets utilized existing, but certainly not efficient, available engines. To make the market viable would require a low cost modern engine in the 7500lbf to 9500lbf range (wing tech and final size dependent. To work, it must be an engine more optimized than a business jet engine (more cycles between overhauls, higher bypass ratio) with efficiency at least 15% better than prior generation engines. I am unable to create a business case to develop such an engine.

Now a turboprop engine, I can see the business case...

For lightening the E2-175, there is a business case too (smaller wing, shorter body).

Lightsaber


Would something like that Catalyst framework be possible to power up to a 50 seater? I think you're absolutely right small flying needs a step change in engine to make it even close to possible.
Erik Berg
“Little by little, we advance with each turn. That's how a drill works!”
 
airlineworker
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:49 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The problem with the CRJ-550 is that, I believe, none of them are new-built and all are conversions from CRJ-700s.
Reconfiguring aircraft for more or less seats is common occurence; but that doesn't help the aircraft manufacturers with selling more new planes.

Agreed that these are not new build. However, with a limit of Validity of 80,000 cycles and 120,000 hours, the CRJ-550s will fly for a long time.

As an aerospace R&D engineer, of course I want new development. But as I noted, this is a while away before demand is sufficient.

The market for 50 seaters was saturated after an early surge due to the ULCC model. 50 seat service declined. The RJ model needs premium traffic and I have trouble coming up with a 50 seat RJ concept business case today.

Please recall the original 50 seat jets utilized existing, but certainly not efficient, available engines. To make the market viable would require a low cost modern engine in the 7500lbf to 9500lbf range (wing tech and final size dependent. To work, it must be an engine more optimized than a business jet engine (more cycles between overhauls, higher bypass ratio) with efficiency at least 15% better than prior generation engines. I am unable to create a business case to develop such an engine.

Now a turboprop engine, I can see the business case...

For lightening the E2-175, there is a business case too (smaller wing, shorter body).

Lightsaber


Would something like that Catalyst framework be possible to power up to a 50 seater? I think you're absolutely right small flying needs a step change in engine to make it even close to possible.


Wasting two pilots on 37-50 seat aircraft is not profitable and the airlines have given up many small stations over the years. Why clog up the air ways with slow low volume planes such as was the case at LGA years back. Dash-8's with slow approaches and takeoffs wasting valuable time and space for aircraft with 100 plus passengers. Dash-8's, B-1900, Saab 340's and such have been put in the dustbin, the new normal is 65 seat and higher RJ's and the passengers love it.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:56 pm

airlineworker wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Agreed that these are not new build. However, with a limit of Validity of 80,000 cycles and 120,000 hours, the CRJ-550s will fly for a long time.

As an aerospace R&D engineer, of course I want new development. But as I noted, this is a while away before demand is sufficient.

The market for 50 seaters was saturated after an early surge due to the ULCC model. 50 seat service declined. The RJ model needs premium traffic and I have trouble coming up with a 50 seat RJ concept business case today.

Please recall the original 50 seat jets utilized existing, but certainly not efficient, available engines. To make the market viable would require a low cost modern engine in the 7500lbf to 9500lbf range (wing tech and final size dependent. To work, it must be an engine more optimized than a business jet engine (more cycles between overhauls, higher bypass ratio) with efficiency at least 15% better than prior generation engines. I am unable to create a business case to develop such an engine.

Now a turboprop engine, I can see the business case...

For lightening the E2-175, there is a business case too (smaller wing, shorter body).

Lightsaber


Would something like that Catalyst framework be possible to power up to a 50 seater? I think you're absolutely right small flying needs a step change in engine to make it even close to possible.


Wasting two pilots on 37-50 seat aircraft is not profitable and the airlines have given up many small stations over the years. Why clog up the air ways with slow low volume planes such as was the case at LGA years back. Dash-8's with slow approaches and takeoffs wasting valuable time and space for aircraft with 100 plus passengers. Dash-8's, B-1900, Saab 340's and such have been put in the dustbin, the new normal is 65 seat and higher RJ's and the passengers love it.


Don't the Dash 8 - 400 got enough speed and power to approach between jets without wasting time for the jets?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:17 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:

Would something like that Catalyst framework be possible to power up to a 50 seater? I think you're absolutely right small flying needs a step change in engine to make it even close to possible.


Wasting two pilots on 37-50 seat aircraft is not profitable and the airlines have given up many small stations over the years. Why clog up the air ways with slow low volume planes such as was the case at LGA years back. Dash-8's with slow approaches and takeoffs wasting valuable time and space for aircraft with 100 plus passengers. Dash-8's, B-1900, Saab 340's and such have been put in the dustbin, the new normal is 65 seat and higher RJ's and the passengers love it.


Don't the Dash 8 - 400 got enough speed and power to approach between jets without wasting time for the jets?


Yes and so do all the others. ATC and crews can easily accommodate different approach speeds without killing the acceptance rate.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:09 pm

It is time for serious consideration for one pilot planes up to 50 persons, say only flights under 2 hours. One obvious set of rules would be better weather prediction, along with higher criteria for flight weather, simple health check for pilot (I could see self testing for ekg, eeg, bp, pulse, temperature, iPhone could do most of it), perhaps age must be under 60, alternate airport landings every 30(?) minutes of the flight, possibly one cabin crew certified to supervise automated landing at alternate and destination airports.

ps - maybe that flight attendant should be one of those 150 hour wonders. (at get credit for 50% of their flight time, toward a real commercial license)
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:40 pm

Today Boeing bounced of the Embraer deal. No more joint venture.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is time for serious consideration for one pilot planes up to 50 persons, say only flights under 2 hours. One obvious set of rules would be better weather prediction, along with higher criteria for flight weather, simple health check for pilot (I could see self testing for ekg, eeg, bp, pulse, temperature, iPhone could do most of it), perhaps age must be under 60, alternate airport landings every 30(?) minutes of the flight, possibly one cabin crew certified to supervise automated landing at alternate and destination airports.

ps - maybe that flight attendant should be one of those 150 hour wonders. (at get credit for 50% of their flight time, toward a real commercial license)

No that's a terrible idea regional flying is the most exhausting form of flying by far, what kills the 50 seater market is that a 70 or 76 seater has a tiny increase in trip costs but offers 50% more potential revenue, the problem is simply that America is urbanizing and airlines have discovered that people will drive a few hours for a cheaper price, so its hard to collect the premium price needed to make small stations economically viable. They only appear to be really viable in areas like Alaska where the driving option is much more challenging and time-consuming,
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:20 pm

Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
dstblj52
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.

The problem is that a lot of the travel from rural areas will drive 2-3 hours to save 100 bucks on the ticket which is fine but it really does reduce the travel from regional airports below the point where its economically viable in a lot of cases, throw in the increasing casm with smaller aircraft, and its really hard to make rural airports financially viable without subsidies
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:44 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.

That’s what the Cape Airs and Air Choice Ones are there for. So have to ask. what kind of flight experience do you have in a jet?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:49 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.

The problem is that a lot of the travel from rural areas will drive 2-3 hours to save 100 bucks on the ticket which is fine but it really does reduce the travel from regional airports below the point where its economically viable in a lot of cases, throw in the increasing casm with smaller aircraft, and its really hard to make rural airports financially viable without subsidies

I know the few times I planned trips to smaller airports, it was a far better deal to grab a rental car than fly the last leg. I love flying, but I usually fly a 2 hour drive from my most common destination instead of the airport 45 minutes away as after rental car, there just is no comparison.

Lightsaber
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dstblj52
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:32 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.

The problem is that a lot of the travel from rural areas will drive 2-3 hours to save 100 bucks on the ticket which is fine but it really does reduce the travel from regional airports below the point where its economically viable in a lot of cases, throw in the increasing casm with smaller aircraft, and its really hard to make rural airports financially viable without subsidies

I know the few times I planned trips to smaller airports, it was a far better deal to grab a rental car than fly the last leg. I love flying, but I usually fly a 2 hour drive from my most common destination instead of the airport 45 minutes away as after rental car, there just is no comparison.

Lightsaber

Especially when you consider a lot of small airports often don't have any rental car facilities easily to hand which makes sense because they are largely there to serve locals and its challenging to make money as a rental car company at a small airport but it again cuts down the demand for seats to and from these airports. Its just really tough to make regional airports work as a business model, especially in the era of generally low fares when the only way airlines make/made any money has high load factors on low casm aircraft
 
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DL717
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:57 pm

CaptainObvious1 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:


Unfortunately? NO! The Limit has nothing to DO with Boeing. What it Has to do with? Are the USA Majors ready to risk labor Troubles, up to and including Pilot Strikes to move the limits set by the Pilots? I do not think so.. There are other Manufacturers waiting in the wings to sell airplanes that won't cross the line, and those include Embraer who would sell even more Non-E2's ,

But what about the efficiency on the non E2's?
They would prefer mrj's!!!


They would prefer an aircraft which fits in the known scope limits so they can place them at their regional partners versus at mainline.

Captain Obvious.


And if such an aircraft that fits the current scope limitations does not exist, push will come to shove and it will have to change. BBD is dead and I doubt the airlines go back to turboprops, even if they should for the economic benefits associated with them for small short haul markets. In that space, ATR is the last man standing. The DHC was spin off, but don’t expect them to be competitive.
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DL717
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:05 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is time for serious consideration for one pilot planes up to 50 persons, say only flights under 2 hours. One obvious set of rules would be better weather prediction, along with higher criteria for flight weather, simple health check for pilot (I could see self testing for ekg, eeg, bp, pulse, temperature, iPhone could do most of it), perhaps age must be under 60, alternate airport landings every 30(?) minutes of the flight, possibly one cabin crew certified to supervise automated landing at alternate and destination airports.

ps - maybe that flight attendant should be one of those 150 hour wonders. (at get credit for 50% of their flight time, toward a real commercial license)


A copilot adds about a $5 per pax on a two hour trip in an RJ. I’m sure pax are worried about that $5.00 as they hold that $5.00 latte in their hand.
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:57 am

DL717 wrote:
CaptainObvious1 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
But what about the efficiency on the non E2's?
They would prefer mrj's!!!


They would prefer an aircraft which fits in the known scope limits so they can place them at their regional partners versus at mainline.

Captain Obvious.


And if such an aircraft that fits the current scope limitations does not exist, push will come to shove and it will have to change. BBD is dead and I doubt the airlines go back to turboprops, even if they should for the economic benefits associated with them for small short haul markets. In that space, ATR is the last man standing. The DHC was spin off, but don’t expect them to be competitive.

Why are we talking as if a 76 alternative isn't in development still? The MRJ M100. Ironically, it will probably arrive when airlines will accept new aircraft.

So either shrink the body and wing of the E2-175, or

:banghead:

As to cost savings of single pilot operations, that is obvious. The first fare to come up is the cheapest. So if it saves $5, it saves $5.

I assume most of the people here who hand wave away costs never tried to make payroll. That teaches economics...

Lightsaber
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DL717
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:26 am

lightsaber wrote:
DL717 wrote:
CaptainObvious1 wrote:

They would prefer an aircraft which fits in the known scope limits so they can place them at their regional partners versus at mainline.

Captain Obvious.


And if such an aircraft that fits the current scope limitations does not exist, push will come to shove and it will have to change. BBD is dead and I doubt the airlines go back to turboprops, even if they should for the economic benefits associated with them for small short haul markets. In that space, ATR is the last man standing. The DHC was spin off, but don’t expect them to be competitive.

Why are we talking as if a 76 alternative isn't in development still? The MRJ M100. Ironically, it will probably arrive when airlines will accept new aircraft.

So either shrink the body and wing of the E2-175, or

:banghead:

As to cost savings of single pilot operations, that is obvious. The first fare to come up is the cheapest. So if it saves $5, it saves $5.

I assume most of the people here who hand wave away costs never tried to make payroll. That teaches economics...

Lightsaber


It won’t matter if everyone is flying the same plane, which is pretty much what we’re looking at for the regional airline business in short order.
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par13del
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:06 am

So if there is talk of moving to one pilot operation, how come there is no talk about increasing the number of seats per F/A, or are we satisfied that we already pay them the least so reducing their number does not save anything?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:59 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is time for serious consideration for one pilot planes up to 50 persons, say only flights under 2 hours. One obvious set of rules would be better weather prediction, along with higher criteria for flight weather, simple health check for pilot (I could see self testing for ekg, eeg, bp, pulse, temperature, iPhone could do most of it), perhaps age must be under 60, alternate airport landings every 30(?) minutes of the flight, possibly one cabin crew certified to supervise automated landing at alternate and destination airports.

ps - maybe that flight attendant should be one of those 150 hour wonders. (at get credit for 50% of their flight time, toward a real commercial license)


Who catches your screw up?
 
Newark727
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:02 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Who catches your screw up?


The ground?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:04 am

Newark727 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Who catches your screw up?


The ground?


Bingo
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:09 am

Single pilot implies autonomous airplanes to cover the pilot failure case. Not happening at sub-50 seat due to cost.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Single pilot implies autonomous airplanes to cover the pilot failure case. Not happening at sub-50 seat due to cost.


Do not worry, automation is dirt cheap compared to labour. That is why we really soon have more self driving cars than people who employ a driver. The same will go for aircraft. And aircraft have the huge benefit of being in the 3D space instead on the 2D ground. The chances of something hitting you is really small. All the tools do also exist already: Auto-land, auto-start, auto-pilot, etc. All that is missing is a good enough control logic that detects what is wrong accurately and good emergency remote control.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:05 pm

Heck this and the MAX 7s may just become the new mainline jet for most airlines down the road going forward.

E175 E2
737-MAX 7
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:56 pm

If you apply your critical thinking (hint, it is not a slogan, it is a process) the viability of rural areas require transportation, medical, education services - all somewhat effective and economical. Current safety regulations has severely limited aviation, mostly for good reasons. But protection of overly highly paid pilots is a matter of regulation capture, not safety. Weather, as I understand it, and have observed it from rural locations is the primary cause of aviation deaths. Single pilot planes must observe stricter weather conditions than main stream jetliners, which can fly in and through almost everything. The health of a single pilot will need to be more strictly regulated than that of two pilot crew. Automation of small craft landing in designated airports is probably simpler than that what Tesla is doing for self driving cars. It all will happen.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:56 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.

Hate to contradict you, but electric cars are a reality; now, today.
We could argue ad-nauseum about their viability, but you can order today an electric cars; so far, it was mainly higher-end ones (like the Tesla S), but they have gone down in category and price.
 
embraer175e2
Topic Author
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:37 pm

Compared to the mrj the e175e2 will be lower in maintenance. Because embraer already has a wide infrastructure set up for their products. Will the future us mrj customers suffer from poor maintenance?
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:13 pm

Lower in maintenance costs for the above text.
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 176
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:36 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Compared to the mrj the e175e2 will be lower in maintenance. Because embraer already has a wide infrastructure set up for their products. Will the future us mrj customers suffer from poor maintenance?


IIRC, Mitsubishi's acquisition of the CRJ line from BBD was largely done with the intention of giving the Spacejet a framework for a support network. If they can successfully re-purpose the CRJ's global support network for the Spacejet then that ought not to be an issue.
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I assume most of the people here who hand wave away costs never tried to make payroll. That teaches economics...
Lightsaber


no argument there. have been in that hotseat a few times.
learning never stops...

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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:59 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Regional flying does not have to be exhausting. It is dependent upon the number of cycles and distance. 70-76 seater is far too big for the small towns in flyover country. A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain. All critical in restoring aviation in places where it is not now economical. Of course I realize there are both Republican and Democratic people who are convinced that rural areas have no right to transportaiton (I am talking about 300-500 mile flights), medical care, nor higher education. I am not one of them.

And of course electrical cars are at least 30 years in the future.

Hate to contradict you, but electric cars are a reality; now, today.
We could argue ad-nauseum about their viability, but you can order today an electric cars; so far, it was mainly higher-end ones (like the Tesla S), but they have gone down in category and price.


I should have put that sarcasm symbol on.

ps - I have one on order!
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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:05 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Compared to the mrj the e175e2 will be lower in maintenance. Because embraer already has a wide infrastructure set up for their products. Will the future us mrj customers suffer from poor maintenance?


IIRC, Mitsubishi's acquisition of the CRJ line from BBD was largely done with the intention of giving the Spacejet a framework for a support network. If they can successfully re-purpose the CRJ's global support network for the Spacejet then that ought not to be an issue.

Well I really hope for them that they manage to.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:44 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
... A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. ...


PZL M-28 Skytruck is alive and well, serving multiple operators (USAF included, AFAIR). It's a 19-seater, I grant you, but a stretch was designed and flew (as Antonov-38), so is a possibility.
Now, as you rightly ask:

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If you apply your critical thinking (hint, it is not a slogan, it is a process) the viability of rural areas require transportation, medical, education services - all somewhat effective and economical. Current safety regulations has severely limited aviation, mostly for good reasons. But protection of overly highly paid pilots is a matter of regulation capture, not safety...


All in all, you come back to square 1: to get passenger transportation to low-volume destinations, you target pilot's pay, correct?
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embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:31 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
... A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. ...


PZL M-28 Skytruck is alive and well, serving multiple operators (USAF included, AFAIR). It's a 19-seater, I grant you, but a stretch was designed and flew (as Antonov-38), so is a possibility.
Now, as you rightly ask:

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If you apply your critical thinking (hint, it is not a slogan, it is a process) the viability of rural areas require transportation, medical, education services - all somewhat effective and economical. Current safety regulations has severely limited aviation, mostly for good reasons. But protection of overly highly paid pilots is a matter of regulation capture, not safety...


All in all, you come back to square 1: to get passenger transportation to low-volume destinations, you target pilot's pay, correct?

The chances for using a Polish aircraft for pax flying in the us are very small. This is my true opinion .
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:55 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain.

We may have to wait quite a while yet for that. Meanwhile.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 33.article



embraer175e2 wrote:
The chances for using a Polish aircraft for pax flying in the us are very small. This is my true opinion.

Cessna may have a better shot at it...albeit unpressurized for now..... :airplane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCLFgpRlITw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbiyAUKVQu8
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:39 am

Devilfish wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain.

We may have to wait quite a while yet for that. Meanwhile.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 33.article



embraer175e2 wrote:
The chances for using a Polish aircraft for pax flying in the us are very small. This is my true opinion.

Cessna may have a better shot at it...albeit unpressurized for now..... :airplane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCLFgpRlITw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbiyAUKVQu8


It looks like a more modern twin otter . Boeing has some kind of agreement with Cessna over this project.
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:15 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain.

We may have to wait quite a while yet for that. Meanwhile.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 33.article



embraer175e2 wrote:
The chances for using a Polish aircraft for pax flying in the us are very small. This is my true opinion.

Cessna may have a better shot at it...albeit unpressurized for now..... :airplane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCLFgpRlITw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbiyAUKVQu8


It looks like a more modern twin otter . Boeing has some kind of agreement with Cessna over this project.


No, Boeing doesn’t have anything to do with with this project. This is Cessna working to fill the demands of smaller Fed Ex and UPS feeders.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:29 am

Devilfish wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 25 seater, obviously none now available, but some of the first hybrid planes may be small enough. They likely would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain.

We may have to wait quite a while yet for that. Meanwhile.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 33.article


The Dornier 328 is a zombie they are not allowing to rest in peace. A nice plane but I don't see it coming back anytime soon.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:11 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is time for serious consideration for one pilot planes up to 50 persons, say only flights under 2 hours. One obvious set of rules would be better weather prediction, along with higher criteria for flight weather, simple health check for pilot (I could see self testing for ekg, eeg, bp, pulse, temperature, iPhone could do most of it), perhaps age must be under 60, alternate airport landings every 30(?) minutes of the flight, possibly one cabin crew certified to supervise automated landing at alternate and destination airports.

ps - maybe that flight attendant should be one of those 150 hour wonders. (at get credit for 50% of their flight time, toward a real commercial license)

that might well be ok for outside the USA bot were one to crash with fatalities in the USA? The loss of life would not start to compare with the lawsuits. were the airplanes to have a drone copilot? someone NOT on the airplane who could also fly in an emergency? That might also work . But? At what cost?
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Embraer hopes E175-E2 jet efficiency helps modify scope clauses

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:44 am

strfyr51 wrote:
that might well be ok for outside the USA bot were one to crash with fatalities in the USA? The loss of life would not start to compare with the lawsuits. were the airplanes to have a drone copilot? someone NOT on the airplane who could also fly in an emergency? That might also work . But? At what cost?


Why not? The idea is acutally a pretty good one. You certainly won´t need to have a 1:1 ratio. What about having a "flight ops" center monitoring all flights of a specific single pilot type, manned by type-rated pilots? Say one pilot on the ground monitors 5 flight and is available to these five flight to chip in remotely if needed. Maybe have a full flight simulator next door which can have live feed from the flight in trouble, where an on-ground pilot takes over?

The cruise industry established something similar after the Costa Concordia accident of Italy, all the major cruise lines now at minimum remotely monitor what is happening on a vessel´s bridge resp. they are able to take over full control if necessary as far as I´m aware.
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