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Razza92
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:39 am

Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:16 pm

Hey,

I thought with so many changes going on with AF/KL at the moment, I thought we could have Master Thread, to keep it all in one place.

Please feel free to add info or updates that you find.

Air France

Cabin Refresh:

A330-200 fleet:

All 15 aircraft cabins have now been refreshed with the BEST interior (36/21/167).

F-GZ.. CA / CB / CC / CD / CE / CF / CG / CH / CI / CJ / CK / CL / CM / CN / CO

B77W COI fleet:

F-GSQX is apparently currently in for refurbishment to the new COI 77W config

Old config 14/32/422 -

F-GS.. QN / QO / QP / QR / QS
F-GZ.. NF / NG / NL / NO / NN

New config 14/28/430 -

F-GS.. QT / QX?

-------------------------------------

Fleet Retirement

A340

according to the below website, (yes, don't shoot i know it is wikipedia - but its information is usually correct and accurate) The A340 will be parted out by the end of May.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des ... Air_France

A319

According to the below article, along with the A340, the A319 fleet is set to be withdrawn

https://twitter.com/airplusnews/status/ ... 9718307841

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true

A380

This fleet of aircraft is set to be removed by 2021

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true

-------------------------------------

KLM

747 Combi

As we all know, recently the 747 passenger fleet at KLM was parted out, however due to a surge in demand for Cargo, they have reintroduced temporarily two 747 Combi aircraft for two weekly flights to PEK and three weekly flights to PVG.

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/k ... -aircraft/


-------------------------------------

Paris Airports

Paris ORY

Paris Orly closed on March 31st with all remaining flights transferred to Charles De Gaulle.

Paris CDG

Charles De Gaulle Terminals 1, 2C, 2D, 2G and 3 are temporarily closed from March 29th at 11:30pm until further notice.

Air France, Air France Hop and Skyteam alliance airlines flights will be operated from Terminal 2F and Terminal 2E

Other airlines flights will be operated from Terminal 2A

https://www.parisaeroport.fr/en/passeng ... from-paris
Last edited by Razza92 on Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.
A300, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A359, A380, AT72, B717, B733, B737, B738, B739, B748, B752, B763, B772, B773, B77W, B789, DC10, DH8D, E145, E170, E195, F70, F100
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1061
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:31 pm

Are all A380s parked at this time? One (F-HPJB) has been retired.
 
airbuster
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:40 pm

Razza92 wrote:
Hey,

I thought with so many changes going on with AF/KL at the moment, I thought we could have Master Thread, to keep it all in one place.

Please feel free to add info or updates that you find.

Air France

Cabin Refresh:

All A330's are now complete.

77W COI fleet:

F-GSQX is apparently currently in for refurbishment to the new COI 77W config

Old config 14/32/422 -

F-GS.. QN / QO / QP / QR / QS
F-GZ.. NF / NG / NL / NO / NN

New config 14/28/430 -

F-GS.. QT / QX?

-------------------------------------

Fleet Retirement

A340

according to the below website, (yes, don't shoot i know it is wikipedia - but its information is usually correct and accurate) The A340 will be parted out by the end of May.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des ... Air_France

A319

According to the below article, along with the A340, the A319 fleet is set to be withdrawn

https://twitter.com/airplusnews/status/ ... 9718307841

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true

A380

This fleet of aircraft is set to be removed by 2021

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true

-------------------------------------

KLM

747 Combi

As we all know, recently the 747 passenger fleet at KLM was parted out, however due to a surge in demand for Cargo, they have reintroduced temporarily two 747 Combi aircraft for two weekly flights to PEK and three weekly flights to PVG.

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/k ... -aircraft/


-------------------------------------

Paris Airports

Paris ORY

Paris Orly closed on March 31st with all remaining flights transferred to Charles De Gaulle.

Paris CDG

Charles De Gaulle Terminals 1, 2C, 2D, 2G and 3 are temporarily closed from March 29th at 11:30pm until further notice.

Air France, Air France Hop and Skyteam alliance airlines flights will be operated from Terminal 2F and Terminal 2E

Other airlines flights will be operated from Terminal 2A

https://www.parisaeroport.fr/en/passeng ... from-paris


Thank you for the thread. Good idea.

To add from KLM side:

A330 parked without a specific date for service resumption.

2x 747 combi performing some last freight only flights to bring philips medical equipment to the Netherlands.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:46 pm

Anyone have full access to the article about retiring the Air France A340s, A319s, and A380s?

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:29 pm

Razza92 wrote:
l
A380

This fleet of aircraft is set to be removed by 2021

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true


According to this, Air France’s A380s won’t be retired in 2021, but will return to service in 2021.

Not sure if this is correct or if there was some translation error.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... n-per-day/
 
Razza92
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:39 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
l
A380

This fleet of aircraft is set to be removed by 2021

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true


According to this, Air France’s A380s won’t be retired in 2021, but will return to service in 2021.

Not sure if this is correct or if there was some translation error.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... n-per-day/


I’ve just had a look at the tweet that had the link to the Les Echos article and it translates from:
‘Les Airbus A380 ne devraient pas revoler d’ici 2021.’
to
‘The Airbus A380s are not expected to fly by 2021.‘

You could be correct, in that they will return to service in 2021.

It would be great if someone could read the Les Echos article and copy its contents into this thread, for clarity.
A300, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A359, A380, AT72, B717, B733, B737, B738, B739, B748, B752, B763, B772, B773, B77W, B789, DC10, DH8D, E145, E170, E195, F70, F100
 
Flanker7
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:10 pm

airbuster wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
Hey,

I thought with so many changes going on with AF/KL at the moment, I thought we could have Master Thread, to keep it all in one place.

Please feel free to add info or updates that you find.

Air France

Cabin Refresh:

All A330's are now complete.

77W COI fleet:

F-GSQX is apparently currently in for refurbishment to the new COI 77W config

Old config 14/32/422 -

F-GS.. QN / QO / QP / QR / QS
F-GZ.. NF / NG / NL / NO / NN

New config 14/28/430 -

F-GS.. QT / QX?

-------------------------------------

Fleet Retirement

A340

according to the below website, (yes, don't shoot i know it is wikipedia - but its information is usually correct and accurate) The A340 will be parted out by the end of May.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des ... Air_France

A319

According to the below article, along with the A340, the A319 fleet is set to be withdrawn

https://twitter.com/airplusnews/status/ ... 9718307841

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true

A380

This fleet of aircraft is set to be removed by 2021

https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1194180?xto ... ssion=true

-------------------------------------

KLM

747 Combi

As we all know, recently the 747 passenger fleet at KLM was parted out, however due to a surge in demand for Cargo, they have reintroduced temporarily two 747 Combi aircraft for two weekly flights to PEK and three weekly flights to PVG.

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/k ... -aircraft/


-------------------------------------

Paris Airports

Paris ORY

Paris Orly closed on March 31st with all remaining flights transferred to Charles De Gaulle.

Paris CDG

Charles De Gaulle Terminals 1, 2C, 2D, 2G and 3 are temporarily closed from March 29th at 11:30pm until further notice.

Air France, Air France Hop and Skyteam alliance airlines flights will be operated from Terminal 2F and Terminal 2E

Other airlines flights will be operated from Terminal 2A

https://www.parisaeroport.fr/en/passeng ... from-paris


Thank you for the thread. Good idea.

To add from KLM side:

A330 parked without a specific date for service resumption.

2x 747 combi performing some last freight only flights to bring philips medical equipment to the Netherlands.


Actually three, BFW will also see action again.
Flying blue only if possible
 
FGITD
Posts: 820
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:04 pm

Very curious how KLM will handle the 330s, particularly the -300. Given how few they have, and the desire to phase them out in a few years anyway, I wonder if they'll simply use 787s on those routes when they're able to reopen.

Also a shame that the next few AF 350s will likely be delivered only to be wrapped up and parked. Seems that whatever flights they are operating for now are only 77w or 789
 
adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:50 am

Here is a story partial listing Ben Smith's plans on 4/10 by La Tribune (French only).

Main points:

1. Long haul will be up-gaged from 20% in June to 40% in July to 60% in August.
2. A380 will be leaving fleet.
3. Banks want 90% state guarantees on loans, currently loans are to be guaranteed at 75%.
4. Ben Smith does not favor nationalization of Air France.
5. A220 still coming online Autumn 2021, for the moment.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 44934.html
JFK Friendly
 
inkjet7
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:52 am

FGITD wrote:
Very curious how KLM will handle the 330s, particularly the -300. Given how few they have, and the desire to phase them out in a few years anyway, I wonder if they'll simply use 787s on those routes when they're able to reopen.

Also a shame that the next few AF 350s will likely be delivered only to be wrapped up and parked. Seems that whatever flights they are operating for now are only 77w or 789


KLM could do the same to a few 787's coming up. I wonder if they will phase out some 737's as well now that is looks that it might take some time before people can be vaccinated.
 
airbuster
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:01 am

FGITD wrote:
Very curious how KLM will handle the 330s, particularly the -300. Given how few they have, and the desire to phase them out in a few years anyway, I wonder if they'll simply use 787s on those routes when they're able to reopen.

Also a shame that the next few AF 350s will likely be delivered only to be wrapped up and parked. Seems that whatever flights they are operating for now are only 77w or 789


The KL A330-300’s are leased and the talk has always been that these would leave around 2021/22, before the -200’s. Almost all -200’s have been bought (albeit with a mortgage). It would seem evident to me that the -300s will go now, especially with the near same seat count they have as the 789. KL would retain the-200s. The cost of operation for the -200 is low and it has the lowest seat count of the entire long haul fleet at the moment.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
KFTG
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:16 am

I'm sorry, what is the logic in retiring the A319 fleet but keeping A318, A320, A321?
 
KFTG
Posts: 794
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:17 am

airbuster wrote:
The KL A330-300’s are leased and the talk has always been that these would leave around 2021/22, before the -200’s. Almost all -200’s have been bought (albeit with a mortgage). It would seem evident to me that the -300s will go now, especially with the near same seat count they have as the 789. KL would retain the-200s. The cost of operation for the -200 is low and it has the lowest seat count of the entire long haul fleet at the moment.

Weren't the KLM A333 a stop gap measure due to 787 delays?
 
CDGIAD
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:55 am

KFTG wrote:
I'm sorry, what is the logic in retiring the A319 fleet but keeping A318, A320, A321?


2 reasons that i can think of:

Most A319 are older than the A318.

Seat count is almost the same (130 vs 140 or so) but A318 a bit lighter some a slight gain in landing fees.
 
Razza92
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:56 pm

An AF A330-200 (F-GZCK) on approach to Pointe Noire (PNR) in The Congo on April 11th, at 20:00, was shot at by intoxicated airport constable.

Two bullets pierced the fuselage: one in the fuel tank and the other in the main hold.

The repatriation flight was delayed for 24 hours, to allow for a B777-200 (F-GSPG) and its crew to arrive from Paris Charles De Gaulle (CDG), to operate the return flight via Bangui (BGF) in the Central African Republic.

https://twitter.com/brazzanews/status/1 ... 30400?s=21

https://twitter.com/afnewsroom/status/1 ... 54336?s=21

https://lesechos-congobrazza.com/politi ... inte-noire
Last edited by Razza92 on Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A300, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A359, A380, AT72, B717, B733, B737, B738, B739, B748, B752, B763, B772, B773, B77W, B789, DC10, DH8D, E145, E170, E195, F70, F100
 
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frigatebird
Posts: 1768
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:20 pm

KFTG wrote:
airbuster wrote:
The KL A330-300’s are leased and the talk has always been that these would leave around 2021/22, before the -200’s. Almost all -200’s have been bought (albeit with a mortgage). It would seem evident to me that the -300s will go now, especially with the near same seat count they have as the 789. KL would retain the-200s. The cost of operation for the -200 is low and it has the lowest seat count of the entire long haul fleet at the moment.

Weren't the KLM A333 a stop gap measure due to 787 delays?

Sort of, yes. But AF/KL was late in ordering the 787 (and A350) when the 787 delays were already a known fact. So, when MP stopped passenger flights, KL took some A333s on short term lease (6-8 years IIRC) to take over some of MP’s Caribbean routes. Had the 787 been available KL wouldn’t have taken the A333s, but they did serve KL pretty well.

KL’s A330s do not feature in their current summer schedule and there are speculations they won’t return at all, especially with a couple of 787-10s for KL in various stages of completion at CHS now. But as Airbuster mentioned, the A332 doesn’t cost KL much and they may need their smallest widebody in the near future.
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sassiciai
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:47 pm

I am not in favour of "master threads" for any topic, particularly if it attempts to cover such a wide scope. I am quite sure that new threads will pop up as and when news worthy events arise within the AF/KLM world. Much better to have a thread devoted to each specific topic, then the reader can select exactly the topic he wishes to read, without being drowned out by stuff he does not want to see.

Already, AF and KLM each has its own fleet, plans, network, home airport(s), employment issues, political issues, and a myriad of other issues particular to each airline. Why do they need to be lumped together?

Next thing will be consolidating into the only remaining thread, "Airliners April 2020". Good luck finding what interests you in there!
 
Flanker7
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:27 pm

sassiciai wrote:
I am not in favour of "master threads" for any topic, particularly if it attempts to cover such a wide scope. I am quite sure that new threads will pop up as and when news worthy events arise within the AF/KLM world. Much better to have a thread devoted to each specific topic, then the reader can select exactly the topic he wishes to read, without being drowned out by stuff he does not want to see.

Already, AF and KLM each has its own fleet, plans, network, home airport(s), employment issues, political issues, and a myriad of other issues particular to each airline. Why do they need to be lumped together?

Next thing will be consolidating into the only remaining thread, "Airliners April 2020". Good luck finding what interests you in there!


I agree, rather pick the topics that interest me then having to go through a master thread. It actually put me off A.Net
Flying blue only if possible
 
Razza92
Topic Author
Posts: 19
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:39 pm

Razza92 wrote:
An AF A330-200 (F-GZCK) on approach to Pointe Noire (PNR) in The Congo on April 11th, at 20:00, was shot at by intoxicated airport constable.

Two bullets pierced the fuselage: one in the fuel tank and the other in the main hold.

The repatriation flight was delayed for 24 hours, to allow for a B777-200 (F-GSPG) and its crew to arrive from Paris Charles De Gaulle (CDG), to operate the return flight via Bangui (BGF) in the Central African Republic.

https://twitter.com/brazzanews/status/1 ... 30400?s=21

https://twitter.com/afnewsroom/status/1 ... 54336?s=21

https://lesechos-congobrazza.com/politi ... inte-noire


Turns out the aircraft was on the ground when it was shot at. The intoxicated gunman was arrested.
A300, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A359, A380, AT72, B717, B733, B737, B738, B739, B748, B752, B763, B772, B773, B77W, B789, DC10, DH8D, E145, E170, E195, F70, F100
 
EddieDude
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:06 pm

Despite the language in the publications, I do not expect the AF A380 to fly commercially again, especially given Smith's reputation as a cost cutter and hard decision maker.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
Flanker7
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:54 pm

Razza92 wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
An AF A330-200 (F-GZCK) on approach to Pointe Noire (PNR) in The Congo on April 11th, at 20:00, was shot at by intoxicated airport constable.

Two bullets pierced the fuselage: one in the fuel tank and the other in the main hold.

The repatriation flight was delayed for 24 hours, to allow for a B777-200 (F-GSPG) and its crew to arrive from Paris Charles De Gaulle (CDG), to operate the return flight via Bangui (BGF) in the Central African Republic.

https://twitter.com/brazzanews/status/1 ... 30400?s=21

https://twitter.com/afnewsroom/status/1 ... 54336?s=21

https://lesechos-congobrazza.com/politi ... inte-noire


Turns out the aircraft was on the ground when it was shot at. The intoxicated gunman was arrested.

This incident has it's own thread now, so we have have double news on the same topic. Goes to show master thread is not working and gets to big with all sorts of information on two airlines.
Flying blue only if possible
 
Razza92
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:58 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
An AF A330-200 (F-GZCK) on approach to Pointe Noire (PNR) in The Congo on April 11th, at 20:00, was shot at by intoxicated airport constable.

Two bullets pierced the fuselage: one in the fuel tank and the other in the main hold.

The repatriation flight was delayed for 24 hours, to allow for a B777-200 (F-GSPG) and its crew to arrive from Paris Charles De Gaulle (CDG), to operate the return flight via Bangui (BGF) in the Central African Republic.

https://twitter.com/brazzanews/status/1 ... 30400?s=21

https://twitter.com/afnewsroom/status/1 ... 54336?s=21

https://lesechos-congobrazza.com/politi ... inte-noire


Turns out the aircraft was on the ground when it was shot at. The intoxicated gunman was arrested.

This incident has it's own thread now, so we have have double news on the same topic. Goes to show master thread is not working and gets to big with all sorts of information on two airlines.



That post was made before the other thread. If you don’t fancy the thread, simply don’t read it.
Last edited by Razza92 on Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Razza92
Topic Author
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:59 pm

Does anyone have a breakdown of what fleet/aircraft KLM are retiring due to the coronavirus downturn?
A300, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A359, A380, AT72, B717, B733, B737, B738, B739, B748, B752, B763, B772, B773, B77W, B789, DC10, DH8D, E145, E170, E195, F70, F100
 
FGITD
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:15 am

CDGIAD wrote:
KFTG wrote:
I'm sorry, what is the logic in retiring the A319 fleet but keeping A318, A320, A321?


2 reasons that i can think of:

Most A319 are older than the A318.

Seat count is almost the same (130 vs 140 or so) but A318 a bit lighter some a slight gain in landing fees.


I recall awhile back that the overall plan was for the 318/319 to be replaced by 220s, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see them go as well. Just about adds up as well, 18 a318 + 33 a319, replaced by 60 220s.

I'm no big fan of megathreads, but I think this isn't a bad idea. Most big announcements (routes, orders, etc) can still warrant their own, but regular upkeep, info etc..all in one place.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:12 am

Razza92 wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of what fleet/aircraft KLM are retiring due to the coronavirus downturn?

No official data for which airplanes are being yeeted.

The A380s will have some slots, no doubt.
Besides that, AF operates bunches of A321-100 and A340-300. It would be not a surprise if those airframes have go to the hencoop because of this pandemic.
I heard that AF-KL was also planning to retire the A330s. As the group is having a bunch of 787s, I am expecting that a large number of A330 would go to the same place as the A380, A321-100 and A340.
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Blerg
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:01 am

What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?
 
SeaDoo
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:27 am

sassiciai wrote:
I am not in favour of "master threads" for any topic, particularly if it attempts to cover such a wide scope. I am quite sure that new threads will pop up as and when news worthy events arise within the AF/KLM world. Much better to have a thread devoted to each specific topic, then the reader can select exactly the topic he wishes to read, without being drowned out by stuff he does not want to see.

Already, AF and KLM each has its own fleet, plans, network, home airport(s), employment issues, political issues, and a myriad of other issues particular to each airline. Why do they need to be lumped together?

Next thing will be consolidating into the only remaining thread, "Airliners April 2020". Good luck finding what interests you in there!


It is too bad that many topics worthy of discussion on their own get merged into a big thread that people won't bother reading.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:54 am

How secure is the 777-200 position at KLM going forward?
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:13 am

Blerg wrote:
What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?


SLC pushed back to July 5.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-12apr20/
 
inkjet7
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Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:41 am

Taxi645 wrote:
How secure is the 777-200 position at KLM going forward?


That depends on how this Corona-and-economic crisis goes. Currently a few of them are used for repatriations flights only. KLM has invested in most of them for new liveries and Wi-Fi upgrades so I guess the upgraded ones won't go too quickly.
 
mozart
Posts: 2163
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:55 am

Antaras wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of what fleet/aircraft KLM are retiring due to the coronavirus downturn?

No official data for which airplanes are being yeeted.

The A380s will have some slots, no doubt.
Besides that, AF operates bunches of A321-100 and A340-300. It would be not a surprise if those airframes have go to the hencoop because of this pandemic.
I heard that AF-KL was also planning to retire the A330s. As the group is having a bunch of 787s, I am expecting that a large number of A330 would go to the same place as the A380, A321-100 and A340.


I’d be surprised if AF pushed the A330 out of the fleet. They have just been refurbished with new cabins and WiFi. A340, yes, they’ll leave definitely. A330, not so sure.
 
mig17
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:50 am

Blerg wrote:
What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?

Nationalization would mean the french government would impose rules like no job cut, no route cut in France interest and may even alterate fleet planing.
Ben Smith already has a plan for the after, but AF-KLM loses 25 million per day so they still need the states to help them get "unlimited" credits. Like lot, Ben Smith also want France to reduce taxes on the airline industrie to help them restart.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:05 am

mig17 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?

Nationalization would mean the french government would impose rules like no job cut, no route cut in France interest and may even alterate fleet planing.
Ben Smith already has a plan for the after, but AF-KLM loses 25 million per day so they still need the states to help them get "unlimited" credits. Like lot, Ben Smith also want France to reduce taxes on the airline industrie to help them restart.


Its actually impossible to nationalise AF-KLM cause it would then be either a French or a Dutch company. Both will never allow that to happen.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:10 am

mig17 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?

Nationalization would mean the french government would impose rules like no job cut, no route cut in France interest and may even alterate fleet planing.
Ben Smith already has a plan for the after, but AF-KLM loses 25 million per day so they still need the states to help them get "unlimited" credits. Like lot, Ben Smith also want France to reduce taxes on the airline industrie to help them restart.


The effect for KL would be that the Dutch government has to nationalise it to (otherwise its probably the end of KLM). But, that would be the end of the similarities. I think the Dutch government would allow KL to cut jobs and make themselves profitable again as soon as possible. I also don't think the government would intervene on the routes and fleet of KL. Just like with the banking crisis the ultimate goal would be to recoup the money they spend while securing KLM's future in the long run.

I hope it doesn't come this far by the way. I think it would take even longer for KLM (and AF) to grow back to their former self if the group gets split up.
 
fa4af
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:17 am

Blerg wrote:
What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?


On the AF question, nationalizing would not necessarily mean Ben Smith would be replaced he has a strong political and internal support. Just yesterday the employees started a new "we love Ben" challenge on Facebook.

regarding the fleets, we are still due to reveive the A350 numbers 5 and 6 in May and June. Numbers 7 and 8 are due by the winter but that remains unclear so far..

stay safe
 
airbuster
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:31 pm

fa4af wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What wold it mean for AF is the government was to nationalize it? What would change and why is Ben Smith against it?

Also, is KL still flying seasonally into SLC?


On the AF question, nationalizing would not necessarily mean Ben Smith would be replaced he has a strong political and internal support. Just yesterday the employees started a new "we love Ben" challenge on Facebook.

regarding the fleets, we are still due to reveive the A350 numbers 5 and 6 in May and June. Numbers 7 and 8 are due by the winter but that remains unclear so far..

stay safe


It always seems as if Ben Smith gets tied in closely to all happenings at AF. You’d nearly forget that Rigail is the head. I rarely read about such closeness between KL or Transavia and Ben.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
NLDru
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:42 pm

I know that Ben is the CEO of AF/KLM but I never hear or see Anne Rigail the CEO of Air France? Who often appear in the world media and seem to make decisions are Ben Smith and Pieter Elbers (CEO KLM). Should Anne Rigail not step up and speak on behalf of Air France and not only Ben Smith?
 
airbuster
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:50 am

NLDru wrote:
I know that Ben is the CEO of AF/KLM but I never hear or see Anne Rigail the CEO of Air France? Who often appear in the world media and seem to make decisions are Ben Smith and Pieter Elbers (CEO KLM). Should Anne Rigail not step up and speak on behalf of Air France and not only Ben Smith?


When things go south due to bad management at AF you will see Rigail on her way out. Ben will stay in the holding.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
18wheelers
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Air France & KLM - Master Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:28 am

airbuster wrote:
It always seems as if Ben Smith gets tied in closely to all happenings at AF. You’d nearly forget that Rigail is the head. I rarely read about such closeness between KL or Transavia and Ben.
I would say the reason behind that is the fact that for years and years, the french government put in office puppet CEOs that were much more concerned about their next job or to strictly adhere to government vision without making a fuss. It was only a step in their political career. I believe AF employees are very delighted to finally have someone who is highly competent, passionate and devoted to this industry.
 
na
Posts: 9749
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:41 am

What about the aging 77E-fleet of AF? Will they follow the A340 soon?
 
Razza92
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:33 am

na wrote:
What about the aging 77E-fleet of AF? Will they follow the A340 soon?


I think the plan was to slowly replace them with the A350, with them being more then 17 years old.
A300, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A359, A380, AT72, B717, B733, B737, B738, B739, B748, B752, B763, B772, B773, B77W, B789, DC10, DH8D, E145, E170, E195, F70, F100
 
tvh
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:12 pm

Razza92 wrote:
na wrote:
What about the aging 77E-fleet of AF? Will they follow the A340 soon?


I think the plan was to slowly replace them with the A350, with them being more then 17 years old.

Some are 22
 
IWMBH
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:37 pm

na wrote:
What about the aging 77E-fleet of AF? Will they follow the A340 soon?


The A350's where ordered to replace the older 77E's.
I think the 77E fleet is a little too big to be phased out completely, at least not without more A350 being delivered.
They had only 4 A340's left, so it was quite the oddball of the fleet, makes sense to retire them.
 
adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:55 pm

Here are some statistics from EuroControl I found in the Independent Newspaper. Let's hope things don't get any worse.

https://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/defau ... 042020.pdf

Bloomberg News says int'l travel bans may remain as long in EU until there is a vaccine in place - for which at least some potential good news exists. The earliest vaccines would be ready early 2021 for the public, 3Q20 for essential workers.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... r-covid-19

Not really great for AirFrance-KLM (my employer) or any carriers with large Int'l presences. Not good for profits or jobs.

But safety is paramount and we're all going to have to be patient.

I've already been pretty much stay at home for a month now - I can't imagine another 6 months of this!
JFK Friendly
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:06 pm

I’m a long time EWR and Skyteam fan so naturally I was upset when AF and KL pulled out of EWR. I do know that new routes won’t be a common thing in the current state but I do plan on sending a letter to AF/KLM and DL once air travel is booming again. I drafted something and if you guys could let me know what you think that would be awesome!



It is with great interest that I write to you today regarding SkyTeam’s lack of service at Newark Liberty international airport’s (EWR). To begin, I would like to acknowledge all the accomplishments the Skyteam alliance and KLM have achieved and their everlasting impact on the aviation industry. Delta, the sole remaining SkyTeam carrier at EWR plays a critical part in the passenger flow throughout EWR, but in recent years service has been drawn down by Delta and their Skyteam alliance partners.

I myself find the Skyteam alliance to be my preferred alliance but now find myself stuck flying on United transatlantic flights from EWR because KLM, Air France, Alitalia, and now Virgin Atlantic have cut all their service. EWR - AMS often catches very high fares on United and UAL even planned on doubling their service in the market. Due to the pandemic, the 2nd daily flight was trimmed, leaving a hole KLM could fill. DL was able to capture a lot of O&D traffic when they operated in the past. While I know Load factors for flights are not a direct indicator of profitability, I do know that an empty flight can’t be profitable. And rest assured, their flights were not empty. I was able to gather some data from DL and UA’s flights' last few months of operation and saw that they both operated near and above 90% full.

It is evident that there was demand for these flights. I can assume by now that you are thinking why not just fly through JFK? Where would we get aircraft to fly these flights? Where is the gate space at EWR and AMS? But I do have solutions for all these concerns. First of all, flying through JFK is not an option for many of the 9 million New Jerseyians, and millions more of New Yorkers. Moving forward, following the Covid-19 pandemic there will be significantly less demand but large destinations such as NYC are expected to rebound quickly. KLM would be able to pull aircraft from destinations that are not expected to rebound as quickly. Lastly, gate space at EWR during the earlier hours of EWR’s peak transatlantic time is not too hard to come by. Furthermore, as Scott Kirby from UAL has said, airlines can find slots anywhere as long as they know where to look.

EWR is the second largest transatlantic gateway to the US and KLM’s lack of service is definitely felt. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I hope you take my concerns into consideration. I hope to see KLM or their Skyteam partners soon flying again transatlantic from EWR. I can let you know now, I will for sure be on those flights!



Please add any and all suggestions!
 
A380MSN004
Posts: 729
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:07 pm

What about Hop! ?
 
A388
Posts: 7981
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:17 pm

tvh wrote:
Razza92 wrote:
na wrote:
What about the aging 77E-fleet of AF? Will they follow the A340 soon?


I think the plan was to slowly replace them with the A350, with them being more then 17 years old.

Some are 22


Keep in mind that the age isn't necessarily the indicator of when an aircraft needs to go. The number of flying hours/cycles is what determines which aircraft needs to be replaced. It might be that a 22 year old aircraft has accumulated less hours or cycles compared to a 17 year old aircraft. Because of this, the 17 year old aircraft will most likely be phased out first.

A388
 
adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:05 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I’m a long time EWR and Skyteam fan so naturally I was upset when AF and KL pulled out of EWR. I do know that new routes won’t be a common thing in the current state but I do plan on sending a letter to AF/KLM and DL once air travel is booming again. I drafted something and if you guys could let me know what you think that would be awesome!



It is with great interest that I write to you today regarding SkyTeam’s lack of service at Newark Liberty international airport’s (EWR). To begin, I would like to acknowledge all the accomplishments the Skyteam alliance and KLM have achieved and their everlasting impact on the aviation industry. Delta, the sole remaining SkyTeam carrier at EWR plays a critical part in the passenger flow throughout EWR, but in recent years service has been drawn down by Delta and their Skyteam alliance partners.

I myself find the Skyteam alliance to be my preferred alliance but now find myself stuck flying on United transatlantic flights from EWR because KLM, Air France, Alitalia, and now Virgin Atlantic have cut all their service. EWR - AMS often catches very high fares on United and UAL even planned on doubling their service in the market. Due to the pandemic, the 2nd daily flight was trimmed, leaving a hole KLM could fill. DL was able to capture a lot of O&D traffic when they operated in the past. While I know Load factors for flights are not a direct indicator of profitability, I do know that an empty flight can’t be profitable. And rest assured, their flights were not empty. I was able to gather some data from DL and UA’s flights' last few months of operation and saw that they both operated near and above 90% full.

It is evident that there was demand for these flights. I can assume by now that you are thinking why not just fly through JFK? Where would we get aircraft to fly these flights? Where is the gate space at EWR and AMS? But I do have solutions for all these concerns. First of all, flying through JFK is not an option for many of the 9 million New Jerseyians, and millions more of New Yorkers. Moving forward, following the Covid-19 pandemic there will be significantly less demand but large destinations such as NYC are expected to rebound quickly. KLM would be able to pull aircraft from destinations that are not expected to rebound as quickly. Lastly, gate space at EWR during the earlier hours of EWR’s peak transatlantic time is not too hard to come by. Furthermore, as Scott Kirby from UAL has said, airlines can find slots anywhere as long as they know where to look.

EWR is the second largest transatlantic gateway to the US and KLM’s lack of service is definitely felt. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I hope you take my concerns into consideration. I hope to see KLM or their Skyteam partners soon flying again transatlantic from EWR. I can let you know now, I will for sure be on those flights!



Please add any and all suggestions!



Glad you are a huge fan of SkyTeam and yes it's surprising how small our footprint is at EWR. But I understand it. My thoughts are that United and Delta have accidentally fallen into a situation which keeps UA at EWR and and DL at JFK.

Now if UA were to find slots and come back to JFK, maybe Delta and AF/KL/Virgin might have to create a presence at EWR. But for the next couple of years I don't think either will / can start a turf war. Keep everything going to the hubs. I think having just one flight a day is not very efficient versus the normal 5x JFK-PAR AF usually operates or the 2x KL/VS do to Amsterdam and London.

As you may know AF left EWR years ago, Delta and KLM pulled out of EWR transatlantic in early 2018, and Virgin just recently. Trust me there are many grumpy UA fliers who would prefer to fly from JFK, so it goes both ways.

All airlines will be weak and cutting costs for the foreseeable future until there is a better understanding of our new situation. Virgin Atlantic is probably the weakest of the 4 but the new joint venture should eventually be a boost. Also VS doesn't seem to be able to rely on financial support in these black swan event crises to the same degree AF/KL and DL can from their governments. Delta is the powerhouse and very very integrated with AF/KL/VS at JFK. Again, before COVID, there were plans to connect Terminal 1,2 and 4 into a single building - a 5 year project, but that is probably on hold for a few years now. Whenever complete, that will really create a impressionable JFK Terminal housing all 4 airlines under one roof!

I don't see, unfortunately, SkyTeam headed back to Newark anytime soon, if at all. PLEASE NOTE these are my personal observations and do not reflect the management strategy. It's really more an evolution of airline industry consolidation and where the balls and partners dropped that account for DL and UA's strengths at JFK and EWR, respectively, and hence their partners.

Hope you come see us some time when things are back up and running as undoubtedly they will be!
JFK Friendly
 
adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:08 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
What about Hop! ?


We all love a god little Hop!
JFK Friendly
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:43 pm

adambrau wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
I’m a long time EWR and Skyteam fan so naturally I was upset when AF and KL pulled out of EWR. I do know that new routes won’t be a common thing in the current state but I do plan on sending a letter to AF/KLM and DL once air travel is booming again. I drafted something and if you guys could let me know what you think that would be awesome!



It is with great interest that I write to you today regarding SkyTeam’s lack of service at Newark Liberty international airport’s (EWR). To begin, I would like to acknowledge all the accomplishments the Skyteam alliance and KLM have achieved and their everlasting impact on the aviation industry. Delta, the sole remaining SkyTeam carrier at EWR plays a critical part in the passenger flow throughout EWR, but in recent years service has been drawn down by Delta and their Skyteam alliance partners.

I myself find the Skyteam alliance to be my preferred alliance but now find myself stuck flying on United transatlantic flights from EWR because KLM, Air France, Alitalia, and now Virgin Atlantic have cut all their service. EWR - AMS often catches very high fares on United and UAL even planned on doubling their service in the market. Due to the pandemic, the 2nd daily flight was trimmed, leaving a hole KLM could fill. DL was able to capture a lot of O&D traffic when they operated in the past. While I know Load factors for flights are not a direct indicator of profitability, I do know that an empty flight can’t be profitable. And rest assured, their flights were not empty. I was able to gather some data from DL and UA’s flights' last few months of operation and saw that they both operated near and above 90% full.

It is evident that there was demand for these flights. I can assume by now that you are thinking why not just fly through JFK? Where would we get aircraft to fly these flights? Where is the gate space at EWR and AMS? But I do have solutions for all these concerns. First of all, flying through JFK is not an option for many of the 9 million New Jerseyians, and millions more of New Yorkers. Moving forward, following the Covid-19 pandemic there will be significantly less demand but large destinations such as NYC are expected to rebound quickly. KLM would be able to pull aircraft from destinations that are not expected to rebound as quickly. Lastly, gate space at EWR during the earlier hours of EWR’s peak transatlantic time is not too hard to come by. Furthermore, as Scott Kirby from UAL has said, airlines can find slots anywhere as long as they know where to look.

EWR is the second largest transatlantic gateway to the US and KLM’s lack of service is definitely felt. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I hope you take my concerns into consideration. I hope to see KLM or their Skyteam partners soon flying again transatlantic from EWR. I can let you know now, I will for sure be on those flights!



Please add any and all suggestions!



Glad you are a huge fan of SkyTeam and yes it's surprising how small our footprint is at EWR. But I understand it. My thoughts are that United and Delta have accidentally fallen into a situation which keeps UA at EWR and and DL at JFK.

Now if UA were to find slots and come back to JFK, maybe Delta and AF/KL/Virgin might have to create a presence at EWR. But for the next couple of years I don't think either will / can start a turf war. Keep everything going to the hubs. I think having just one flight a day is not very efficient versus the normal 5x JFK-PAR AF usually operates or the 2x KL/VS do to Amsterdam and London.

As you may know AF left EWR years ago, Delta and KLM pulled out of EWR transatlantic in early 2018, and Virgin just recently. Trust me there are many grumpy UA fliers who would prefer to fly from JFK, so it goes both ways.

All airlines will be weak and cutting costs for the foreseeable future until there is a better understanding of our new situation. Virgin Atlantic is probably the weakest of the 4 but the new joint venture should eventually be a boost. Also VS doesn't seem to be able to rely on financial support in these black swan event crises to the same degree AF/KL and DL can from their governments. Delta is the powerhouse and very very integrated with AF/KL/VS at JFK. Again, before COVID, there were plans to connect Terminal 1,2 and 4 into a single building - a 5 year project, but that is probably on hold for a few years now. Whenever complete, that will really create a impressionable JFK Terminal housing all 4 airlines under one roof!

I don't see, unfortunately, SkyTeam headed back to Newark anytime soon, if at all. PLEASE NOTE these are my personal observations and do not reflect the management strategy. It's really more an evolution of airline industry consolidation and where the balls and partners dropped that account for DL and UA's strengths at JFK and EWR, respectively, and hence their partners.

Hope you come see us some time when things are back up and running as undoubtedly they will be!


Thank you so much for the info you shared! Now I’m curious since you seem very knowledgeable, what would you recommend is my best course of action when sending this letter? Shall I send it to AF, DL, and KL or maybe just KL? Is there anything that could be changed in the wording to potentially “sweet talk” or convince management?

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