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mattf
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:19 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thank you so much for the info you shared! Now I’m curious since you seem very knowledgeable, what would you recommend is my best course of action when sending this letter? Shall I send it to AF, DL, and KL or maybe just KL? Is there anything that could be changed in the wording to potentially “sweet talk” or convince management?


The most effective communication to executives is short: think three to four sentences. A letter like this draft is bound for some customer care associate thanking you for your loyalty and enthusiasm and saying that all customer suggestions are valued and taken into consideration.

Want to “sweet talk” them? It wouldn’t hurt if you negotiated and included a multi-year landing fee waiver and other incentives from PANYNJ. The port authority has a checkered past when it comes to corruption and mismanagement that opportunistic parties have found advantageous every now and then.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:56 am

AF-KL to now get USD10.7 Billion from French and Netherland Governments in bailout. Last time I heard it was closer to $6 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04 ... e-klm.html
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panamair
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:08 am

adambrau wrote:
AF-KL to now get USD10.7 Billion from French and Netherland Governments in bailout. Last time I heard it was closer to $6 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04 ... e-klm.html


It is still $6 billion in loans (4B to AF and 2B to KL) but as the article later states, AF is also drawing another $4B from a French government emergency fund, which brings the total to $10B ($8B on the AF side and $2B on the KL side).
 
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adambrau
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:56 am

panamair wrote:
adambrau wrote:
AF-KL to now get USD10.7 Billion from French and Netherland Governments in bailout. Last time I heard it was closer to $6 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04 ... e-klm.html


It is still $6 billion in loans (4B to AF and 2B to KL) but as the article later states, AF is also drawing another $4B from a French government emergency fund, which brings the total to $10B ($8B on the AF side and $2B on the KL side).


My point was it still seems pretty strongly backed by the French Government, however the funds are structured. All airlines will temporarily shrink, but AF/KL was already smaller (330 mainline ) than the US3 averaging (over 800).
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FGITD
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:15 am

adambrau wrote:

It is still $6 billion in loans (4B to AF and 2B to KL) but as the article later states, AF is also drawing another $4B from a French government emergency fund, which brings the total to $10B ($8B on the AF side and $2B on the KL side).


My point was it still seems pretty strongly backed by the French Government, however the funds are structured. All airlines will temporarily shrink, but AF/KL was already smaller (330 mainline ) than the US3 averaging (over 800).[/quote]

Curious what the fate of Hop and Transavia will be. Hop is basically being rolled into AF as is anyway, but Transavia could be an interesting case. Also very interesting to see how the potential staffing cuts will go over.

Fleet size is a fun measure. US based airlines just blow everyone away. AA alone with almost 1000 airplanes...craziness. Makes KLM look like nothing with 115 aircraft.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:00 am

FGITD wrote:
adambrau wrote:

It is still $6 billion in loans (4B to AF and 2B to KL) but as the article later states, AF is also drawing another $4B from a French government emergency fund, which brings the total to $10B ($8B on the AF side and $2B on the KL side).


My point was it still seems pretty strongly backed by the French Government, however the funds are structured. All airlines will temporarily shrink, but AF/KL was already smaller (330 mainline ) than the US3 averaging (over 800).


Curious what the fate of Hop and Transavia will be. Hop is basically being rolled into AF as is anyway, but Transavia could be an interesting case. Also very interesting to see how the potential staffing cuts will go over.

Fleet size is a fun measure. US based airlines just blow everyone away. AA alone with almost 1000 airplanes...craziness. Makes KLM look like nothing with 115 aircraft.[/quote]

Yeah AF/KL not counting the Transavia/Hop ops are 1/3 the fleet size of the US3. Wonder where that balance will end up. HOP and Transavia France are shutting down for an undisclosed amount of time...
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Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:12 am

Do we know on what these funds will be spent on? I remember reading that Austrian Airlines will receive €750 million from the government while €350 million will be used to refund tickets. Would be interesting to know what AF-KL plan on using these money for.
 
76er
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:20 am

I guess most of the money will go to salaries and other fixed costs like leases, loans etc.
 
marcelh
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:18 am

FGITD wrote:
Fleet size is a fun measure. US based airlines just blow everyone away. AA alone with almost 1000 airplanes...craziness. Makes KLM look like nothing with 115 aircraft.

With KLM Cityhopper KLM has about 165 planes. More interesting is the amount of WB planes: KLM has - without the 747 about 60 WB planes and AA has “only” 115 it shows that AA and KLM are very different airlines, from very different markets
 
inkjet7
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:58 am

Blerg wrote:
Do we know on what these funds will be spent on? I remember reading that Austrian Airlines will receive €750 million from the government while €350 million will be used to refund tickets. Would be interesting to know what AF-KL plan on using these money for.


Pay for fixed costs like planes and wages. By the way KL also receives more money than direct bank guarantees like AF does.
 
FGITD
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:08 pm

marcelh wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Fleet size is a fun measure. US based airlines just blow everyone away. AA alone with almost 1000 airplanes...craziness. Makes KLM look like nothing with 115 aircraft.

With KLM Cityhopper KLM has about 165 planes. More interesting is the amount of WB planes: KLM has - without the 747 about 60 WB planes and AA has “only” 115 it shows that AA and KLM are very different airlines, from very different markets


Of course, it's a fun comparison, but a completely nonsensical one. KLM (or for that matter, any European carrier) has little to no need for the gigantic fleets of short to medium haul aircraft used by American carriers. It's impressive to see an airline flying around with hundreds of flights airborne, but equally impressive to see the "smaller" carriers stretching across the planet.

I could go on and on, it's an interesting bit of history to see how different regions led to different airline strategies.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:41 pm

KLM/AF will get support from their governments.

The Netherlands will provide 2 to 4 billion through a combination of loans and guarantees. France will provide 7 billion in loans and guarantees. Nationalization is not on the cards.

There are a few conditions to the Dutch support. Including less night flying, a cut in Co2 emissions, cuts in salaries for pilots (but not ground staff), cuts in bonuses etc. The article does not mention if France placed conditions on their support.

Dutch source:
https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/5449927 ... france-klm
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Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:10 am

Less night flying makes little sense, they are directly affecting their business model. Also how do you define night flying? From sunset to sunrise? From midnight? This condition makes no sense and it shows the absurdity of politicians getting involved in the airline business. Funny how they didn't lower KL's taxes, those remain unchanged.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:47 am

Blerg wrote:
Less night flying makes little sense, they are directly affecting their business model. Also how do you define night flying? From sunset to sunrise? From midnight? This condition makes no sense and it shows the absurdity of politicians getting involved in the airline business. Funny how they didn't lower KL's taxes, those remain unchanged.


AF006 will come into JFK on say April 24rd and RON. Flight 007 then goes back overnight on the 25th - means they only have to use one crew but that could be for safety as much as saving money with both NYC and Paris still affected by the virus.
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Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:20 am

adambrau wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Less night flying makes little sense, they are directly affecting their business model. Also how do you define night flying? From sunset to sunrise? From midnight? This condition makes no sense and it shows the absurdity of politicians getting involved in the airline business. Funny how they didn't lower KL's taxes, those remain unchanged.


AF006 will come into JFK on say April 24rd and RON. Flight 007 then goes back overnight on the 25th - means they only have to use one crew but that could be for safety as much as saving money with both NYC and Paris still affected by the virus.


Hopefully that's a short-term measure and that they don't keep it for months as it might disrupt their network especially once transfer traffic picks up.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:39 am

Blerg wrote:
adambrau wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Less night flying makes little sense, they are directly affecting their business model. Also how do you define night flying? From sunset to sunrise? From midnight? This condition makes no sense and it shows the absurdity of politicians getting involved in the airline business. Funny how they didn't lower KL's taxes, those remain unchanged.


AF006 will come into JFK on say April 24th and RON. Flight 007 then goes back overnight on the 25th - means they only have to use one crew but that could be for safety as much as saving money with both NYC and Paris still affected by the virus.


Hopefully that's a short-term measure and that they don't keep it for months as it might disrupt their network especially once transfer traffic picks up.


Yup exactly. You, me and a whole lot of other folks would agree!!
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FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:11 am

A proper thank you from AF-KLM's head honcho to both governments would have been fitting, but only credit goes to the French...still tough love for KL

https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... er-1198117
 
AOMlover
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:42 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
A proper thank you from AF-KLM's head honcho to both governments would have been fitting, but only credit goes to the French...still tough love for KL

https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... er-1198117


Discussions with the Dutch government have not been finalized yet, so what’s your problem with Ben Smith thanking the French government ?
 
AvioBlue
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:01 am

Blerg wrote:
Less night flying makes little sense, they are directly affecting their business model. Also how do you define night flying? From sunset to sunrise? From midnight? This condition makes no sense and it shows the absurdity of politicians getting involved in the airline business. Funny how they didn't lower KL's taxes, those remain unchanged.

It is just badly translated, less night flying here doesn't mean they can't fly through the night, but they have to lower the number of flights arriving and departing between 23:00 and 06:00 at AMS.

AMS have had a night curfew since forever, to reduce nightly noise pollution. Night slots are sparce.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:43 am

AOMlover wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
A proper thank you from AF-KLM's head honcho to both governments would have been fitting, but only credit goes to the French...still tough love for KL

https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... er-1198117


Discussions with the Dutch government have not been finalized yet, so what’s your problem with Ben Smith thanking the French government ?


Both governments have agreed to aid AF-KLM in in their respective countries. Mr. Smith is the head of this multinational corporation. Kinda shortsighted imho for such a CEO just to thank the only French side while the Dutch side is also willing to provide substantial financial aid.
 
AOMlover
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:55 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
AOMlover wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
A proper thank you from AF-KLM's head honcho to both governments would have been fitting, but only credit goes to the French...still tough love for KL

https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... er-1198117


Discussions with the Dutch government have not been finalized yet, so what’s your problem with Ben Smith thanking the French government ?


Both governments have agreed to aid AF-KLM in in their respective countries. Mr. Smith is the head of this multinational corporation. Kinda shortsighted imho for such a CEO just to thank the only French side while the Dutch side is also willing to provide substantial financial aid.


Both governments have agreed to help Air France-KLM, but one has provided a firm commitment, and the other one is still discussing. That's why for now the French government is getting thanked, and the Dutch government will be thanked as well when an agreement is finalized. They are different shareholders so I'm not sure why they'd get thanked at the same time.

On the Dutch side we're still talking about a "2 to 4 euros" aid package. That's quite a large order of magnitude, so I guess there's still a lot to be agreed on.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:42 pm

As a dutch citisen I can tell you why the idiot named Ben Smith isn't happy with the dutch (government). His salery +bonuses has been reduced by over 900k last week. And I think he nearly was layed off. I don't thrust him, and I think the dutch governent doesn't eighter.

In the Netherlands it's been reported that our govenment wasn't ready to make public the support for (AF-)KLM, again they were forced by the French side. AF really needed the support, KLM could last a couple of more weeks without.
Politicians and sencible realistic thinking don't match. (AF-)KLM aren't allowed to pay divident, bonuses and for the long term the amount of night flights has to be reduced. In exchange for the dutch support to (AF/)KLM. As long as the support isn't repayed bonuses and dividend are perhibited. So possibly KLM is better of without the support.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:43 pm

As a dutch citisen I can tell you why the idiot named Ben Smith isn't happy with the dutch (government). His salery +bonuses has been reduced by over 900k last week. And I think he nearly was layed off. I don't thrust him, and I think the dutch governent doesn't eighter.

In the Netherlands it's been reported that our govenment wasn't ready to make public the support for (AF-)KLM, again they were forced by the French side. AF really needed the support, KLM could last a couple of more weeks without.
Politicians and sencible realistic thinking don't match. (AF-)KLM aren't allowed to pay divident, bonuses and for the long term the amount of night flights has to be reduced. In exchange for the dutch support to (AF/)KLM. As long as the support isn't repayed bonuses and dividend are perhibited. So possibly KLM is better of without the support.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:47 pm

Dutch financial newspaper is writing that the top of KLM is taking a split up of the holding in to consideration:

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... air-france

A split up would not mean the end of deep cooperation with AF. KLM and AF can keep working together like they do with Delta.
But it would mean that AF is no longer the boss of KLM.

Anyhow, it seems clear that the Dutch government and KLM want guarantees that during this crisis AF restructures the company. AF was already way behind in profit margens against LH BA KLM and others.
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:11 pm

So what did KL do since the merger to transform itself into a profitable and successful airline? Why were they losing so much money before?
 
Jetty
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:17 pm

Blerg wrote:
So what did KL do since the merger to transform itself into a profitable and successful airline? Why were they losing so much money before?

The failed merger with AZ was very expensive.
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:17 pm

Jetty wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what did KL do since the merger to transform itself into a profitable and successful airline? Why were they losing so much money before?

The failed merger with AZ was very expensive.


In what sense? What generated these expenses?
 
Jetty
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:26 pm

Blerg wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what did KL do since the merger to transform itself into a profitable and successful airline? Why were they losing so much money before?

The failed merger with AZ was very expensive.


In what sense? What generated these expenses?

With AZ everything generates expenses and few things generate a profit, that’s why they have to be bailed out every year. :lol: On top of that KL had to pay AZ a court ordered fine for breaking up with them.
 
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enilria
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Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:59 pm

While the U.S. DOT forces carriers to keep flying domestic routes, France tells Air France to cut domestic flights by as much as 50% by 2024. Cuckoo...cuckoo...

Air France will have to cut its carbon emissions and domestic flights as conditions for government financial support, France’s finance minister said on Wednesday.

For flights specifically in mainland France, emissions would have to be halved by 2024, which Le Maire said meant that domestic flights would be “drastically reduced” to focus on serving hubs for transfers.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22B2EL
 
tphuang
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:09 pm

this is what happens when the politicians get involved.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:18 pm

That would probably be best for AF anyways.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:24 pm

Air France is also being told to be a good customer of Airbus - but this is nothing new

If a company wants large chunks of money from the state, then it should expect some strings to be involved. Monsieur Dubois who lives in Rennes doesn't understand why Air France needs so much taxpayer cash when local businesses are struggling, nor why passengers cannot use the heavily subsidised trains

I agree political interference is rarely good, but to expect zero interference is naive
 
continental004
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:33 pm

This 100% makes sense. France has its fine TGV system which has been continuously improving; the only gaps where flying makes sense are to NCE, TLS and any east-west route across France.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:52 pm

AF has been cutting and optimising their domestic network for years now. 50-seaters are obsolete and passengers aren't willing to pay for high-frequency RJs when trains and LCCs offer the same routes at a fraction of the price. I would expect that several of these services are subsidised one way or another already; I don't think that destinations will be cut entirely but there will be heavier focus on hubs. Do you really need direct flights from Lorient to Lyon when you could simply hub people through ORL or CDG, or tell people to use the train?

Check out the list of PSO (Public Service Obligation) routes, lots of entries for French domestic traffic: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ai ... ket/pso_en
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:00 pm

Even with its large size, French domestic routes have been ongoing loss making for quite some time and AF has not hidden the fact that it needs to reduce/restructure routes.

In latest union consultations, AF already stated it would need to further reduce HOP, find an appropriate place for Transavia and continue reduction of other domestic ops with staffing adjustments.

Ultimately what will be left in my opinion will be some CDG longhaul feeder flights, plus a slimmed-down Navette (shuttle flights) network from Orly to Toulouse, Nice, Marseille, Bordeaux and Montpellier.

So any push by the government to limit domestic flying is a gift and good excuse for AF to make the necessary cuts its wanted to make anyhow.
mercure f-wtcc
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:39 pm

Just had a brief look through the list of PSO routes held by the EU (thanks to mxaxai for the URL)
The routes within mainland France seem to expire in 2022 and 2023. Thus the prime minister saying there would be a reduction in domestic flights by 2024 seems to be a way of saying that PSO subsidies will not be renewed. Airports like Agen, Aurillac, Castres, Le Puy, Quimper and Rodez might lose service with Air France / Hop or Chalair

I am also not sure why there is a need to continue to subsidise the route from Paris to Lourdes route 19x weekly, especially in winter when Pau (about 50 km away) has a much higher level of service to Paris. Pilgrimage season to Lourdes runs April to October; in winter the town goes to sleep
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:06 pm

tphuang wrote:
this is what happens when the politicians get involved.


Domestic flights in a relatively small country like France are pointless anyway. France has a good rail network with high speed trains, which are much better for the environment than airplanes. It's time to put an end to 2-hour flights.
Good moaning!
 
airhansa
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:20 pm

KLM is more suited to providing domestic services in the Western Atlantic Ocean. Amsterdam is already a hub for UK flights and KLM could easily become a major domestic player there, along with Scandinavia where SAS remains a small airline. A merger between KLM and SAS would go well IMO forming a hub-and-spoke model form Amsterdam. Alternatively split SAS between KLM and Finnair.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:28 am

airhansa wrote:
KLM is more suited to providing domestic services in the Western Atlantic Ocean. Amsterdam is already a hub for UK flights and KLM could easily become a major domestic player there, along with Scandinavia where SAS remains a small airline. A merger between KLM and SAS would go well IMO forming a hub-and-spoke model form Amsterdam. Alternatively split SAS between KLM and Finnair.


Domestic services?
Western Atlantic Ocean?
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:52 am

Amsterdam wrote:
airhansa wrote:
KLM is more suited to providing domestic services in the Western Atlantic Ocean. Amsterdam is already a hub for UK flights and KLM could easily become a major domestic player there, along with Scandinavia where SAS remains a small airline. A merger between KLM and SAS would go well IMO forming a hub-and-spoke model form Amsterdam. Alternatively split SAS between KLM and Finnair.


Domestic services?
Western Atlantic Ocean?

I think he means short haul flights in Western Europe
 
airhansa
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:55 am

Amsterdam wrote:
airhansa wrote:
KLM is more suited to providing domestic services in the Western Atlantic Ocean. Amsterdam is already a hub for UK flights and KLM could easily become a major domestic player there, along with Scandinavia where SAS remains a small airline. A merger between KLM and SAS would go well IMO forming a hub-and-spoke model form Amsterdam. Alternatively split SAS between KLM and Finnair.


Domestic services?
Western Atlantic Ocean?


Sorry. I was trying to think of a word to encompass the various islands off the coast of Western Europe. I heard the term "Atlantic archipelago" and somehow that merged with "Western Europe".

Amsterdam is in a good position to work as a hub-and-spoke model for flights from UK, Iceland etc... and also from the north such as Scandinavia, to long-haul destinations in Asia, Oceania and Africa. Servicing one-stop flights demand from Asia to America might also entice cheaper fares for Europe to America corridor as well.

I always felt that KLM should provide domestic services (cabotage) in places such as the UK and Scandinavia, which can also be used as a feeder service to its hub in Amsterdam. Maybe buying Loganair might be a good route of entry. (Any domestic route in the UK that requires a stop automatically makes Amsterdam a viable transit point.)
 
AOMlover
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:18 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
tphuang wrote:
this is what happens when the politicians get involved.


Domestic flights in a relatively small country like France are pointless anyway. France has a good rail network with high speed trains, which are much better for the environment than airplanes. It's time to put an end to 2-hour flights.


It depends how you see it...connecting from the TGV to Orly is not convenient (Massy TGV is not that far, but still a 15km ride). There's a lot of connecting passengers flying into Orly in order to catch a flight to the French Overseas Departments, and a train/plane combination through Orly would be extremely inefficient.

The situation at CDG is much better as there's a TGV station within Terminal 2. AF has been operating TGV / plane connections for quite some time (on the Paris-Brussels route) and it's working pretty well. However if you're coming from Nice or Toulouse, the travel time by TGV is not competitive (4+ hours from Toulouse, 5+ hours from Nice, and you also have to allow more time in CDG to connect from a train to a plane, or the other way around).

So in short there will always be demand for domestic flights in France, at least for connecting passengers. Keep in mind as well that all of the TGV lines converge into Paris. Good luck taking the train between Bordeaux and Nice...it's a 10-hour adventure !
 
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Aesma
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:38 am

About political interference in KL and AF as a condition of the bailout, this is called democracy. Politicians do this to appease people asking for such things (or much more). Look at LHR and its third runway that is never going to get built...

Personally I'm not opposed to the cuts in flights however I'm not sure I follow the logic, will Easyjet, Ryanair and the like also be forced to cuts flights (by reducing slots or something like that) ? If AF cuts flights just for other airlines to fly the routes instead, there is no benefit.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:37 am

In testimony to the National Assembly, Minister of Economy Bruno Le Maire stated the agreement covering AF domestic cuts will be only applicable if there is alternative airport rail service that takes under 2:30 travel time.
The agreement seeks to maintain the strength of AF Paris hub and rail connection should compliment and support the airlines hub network and not weaken it in anyway. In essence agreement seeks to build upon the interline success AF already enjoys with SNCF. The government views agreement as a win-win with both enterprises helping support each other with traffic flow.
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Newark727
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:59 am

enilria wrote:
While the U.S. DOT forces carriers to keep flying domestic routes, France tells Air France to cut domestic flights by as much as 50% by 2024. Cuckoo...cuckoo...

Air France will have to cut its carbon emissions and domestic flights as conditions for government financial support, France’s finance minister said on Wednesday.

For flights specifically in mainland France, emissions would have to be halved by 2024, which Le Maire said meant that domestic flights would be “drastically reduced” to focus on serving hubs for transfers.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22B2EL


So governments are in the wrong for making airlines cut flights, and also in the wrong for making airlines keep making flights, as a condition of getting bailed out (as per one of your other threads, concerning B6.) Are governments expected to give them the money with no strings attached? Because I'd point out that's a standard that we've never held private investors to. Or is your position that the airlines should be allowed to fail? I mean, sure, but that implies another set of questions. Do we want to wipe the board totally clean with every economic shock? I can see that having a certain ideological appeal, but ideologies don't put food on the table. Or do we need to compel businesses to keep a rainy-day fund somehow? It clearly isn't a competitive advantage under ordinary circumstances to have one, given how airlines behaved prior to this whole mess kicking off.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air France May Have To Permanently Cut Domestic Service by Half to Get Aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:45 am

Newark727 wrote:
enilria wrote:
While the U.S. DOT forces carriers to keep flying domestic routes, France tells Air France to cut domestic flights by as much as 50% by 2024. Cuckoo...cuckoo...

Air France will have to cut its carbon emissions and domestic flights as conditions for government financial support, France’s finance minister said on Wednesday.

For flights specifically in mainland France, emissions would have to be halved by 2024, which Le Maire said meant that domestic flights would be “drastically reduced” to focus on serving hubs for transfers.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22B2EL


So governments are in the wrong for making airlines cut flights, and also in the wrong for making airlines keep making flights, as a condition of getting bailed out (as per one of your other threads, concerning B6.) Are governments expected to give them the money with no strings attached? Because I'd point out that's a standard that we've never held private investors to. Or is your position that the airlines should be allowed to fail? I mean, sure, but that implies another set of questions. Do we want to wipe the board totally clean with every economic shock? I can see that having a certain ideological appeal, but ideologies don't put food on the table. Or do we need to compel businesses to keep a rainy-day fund somehow? It clearly isn't a competitive advantage under ordinary circumstances to have one, given how airlines behaved prior to this whole mess kicking off.


I think it's good that governments have some demands if airlines or any other business need taxpayer money. But, politicians shouldn't use the support for airlines for their own political gains. If there is market demand for flights within France, why force AF to cut them? If there is a market other airlines will jump at the occasion and take the revenue AF would've made, how does this help the French economy or the environment? The lost revenue could've been paid in dividend to the French government.

And it doesn't stop there, the French government told AF to buy Airbus planes. I would be very worried as an investor that a government official decides which plane AF should fly. And although the investments in sustainable air travel is good for the environment, there should be a businesscase behind it to make it truly sustainable.

Government interference in both Air France and KLM can be bad for their long time growth, profitability and their competitive position in the market. And this undermines the whole idea behind the financial support in the first place. I think the concern of governments should be to get the money back for the taxpayer and maybe make some money in the proces, while making AF/KL into a successful company that safeguards French and Dutch interests in the long term.
 
mig17
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:24 am

When you look more closely at the "less than 2h30 in TGV", you'll see that Nice, Toulouse, Marseille, Montpellier, Mulhouse or Pau are not concerned. The only 3 large line really concerned are Lyon, Bordeaux and Nantes. Strasbourg already not being serviced.
From those 4 last town, you can feed CDG by TGV in less than 2h30.

The question here is what will happen of Orly. Will AF (or Transavia or hop) try to propose flight in France not going through Paris where there are no TGV?

Also yes, what will other airline be allowed to do?
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:02 pm

mig17 wrote:
Also yes, what will other airline be allowed to do?


That's the question. Will other airlines not receiving government help not be required to fly less domestically ? I think not. FR, U2, VY and possibly some other EU players will fill the gap and pollute in lieu of AF. Possibly hiring the staff that were laid off at AF. Back to square one. Unless the French government makes it a law and this applies to all airlines. The would such a law be EU compatible?

This will be interesting to see how it develops.

Questions: technically, how does the French government "give" the money to AF? They own shares in the AF-KL Group, not AF.
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inkjet7
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:51 pm

Aesma wrote:
About political interference in KL and AF as a condition of the bailout, this is called democracy. Politicians do this to appease people asking for such things (or much more). Look at LHR and its third runway that is never going to get built...

Personally I'm not opposed to the cuts in flights however I'm not sure I follow the logic, will Easyjet, Ryanair and the like also be forced to cuts flights (by reducing slots or something like that) ? If AF cuts flights just for other airlines to fly the routes instead, there is no benefit.


Exactly. Measures likes taxes on tickets or fuel should not favor one airline over the other.
 
mig17
Posts: 309
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:02 pm

ro1960 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Also yes, what will other airline be allowed to do?


That's the question. Will other airlines not receiving government help not be required to fly less domestically ? I think not. FR, U2, VY and possibly some other EU players will fill the gap and pollute in lieu of AF. Possibly hiring the staff that were laid off at AF. Back to square one. Unless the French government makes it a law and this applies to all airlines. The would such a law be EU compatible?

This will be interesting to see how it develops.

Questions: technically, how does the French government "give" the money to AF? They own shares in the AF-KL Group, not AF.

They don't "give" money to Airfrance, they garantie 4 billiosn of credit from banks and they directly loan 4 other billions.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
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