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ro1960
Posts: 1274
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:21 pm

Interesting news today:
France domestic flight ban will apply to low-cost airlines

Which raises a question:
How will that fare with the EU rules? Will Brussels reject the French government's law?
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airhansa
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:29 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Interesting news today:
France domestic flight ban will apply to low-cost airlines

Which raises a question:
How will that fare with the EU rules? Will Brussels reject the French government's law?


It's based on environmental concerns so it shouldn't concern anti-trust regulators (environmental constraints exist in many situations such as dumping waste or constructing a building in a certain locality). Generally Europeans like to travel by public transport and the EU knows this. They aren't going to be seen striking down national law benefiting public transport.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:46 pm

If the ban applies to routes which can be travelled by train in 2h30 then I very much doubt any LCCs will be affected to a serious degree. These are routes which are viable only because a person is connecting to another flight - i.e. a trip that involves Air France
The LCC ban just means that Air France can't put Transavia on the route instead
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 pm

airhansa wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Interesting news today:
France domestic flight ban will apply to low-cost airlines

Which raises a question:
How will that fare with the EU rules? Will Brussels reject the French government's law?


It's based on environmental concerns so it shouldn't concern anti-trust regulators (environmental constraints exist in many situations such as dumping waste or constructing a building in a certain locality). Generally Europeans like to travel by public transport and the EU knows this. They aren't going to be seen striking down national law benefiting public transport.


The deal is to reduce emissions compared to 2005 levels. Is it in line with EU objectives? It seems it would need to be to get approval, no?
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:39 pm

[quote="ro1960"]Interesting news today:
France domestic flight ban will apply to low-cost airlines


I'm reposting as the link was mistyped.
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
Flanker7
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:25 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Seems low risk. Because full flights or empty flights, either way KL gets free money from government.

There will be no free money, details are still worked out but it will not be free.
Flying blue only if possible
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:32 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Any word on if or when KLM will return to SLC?


Its not listed for next month July it seems,
Here's a recent listing of all intercontinentals: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21jun20/

Noteworthy: KL is gonna bring her A332/333 fleet back into the mix too
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:09 pm

SNPL has agreed to 403 voluntary pilot departures at AF. Approx 200 are likely retirements from A380 fleet. The company has until July 3 to present details of its planned reductions to 14 unions involved.
mercure f-wtcc
 
A330Inter
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:34 pm

Any insight on the A380 final French tour tomorrow?
Take off planned for 15:30LT from CDG for a 2h ride, will it fly over other cities than Paris?
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:55 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Any word on if or when KLM will return to SLC?


Its not listed for next month July it seems,
Here's a recent listing of all intercontinentals: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21jun20/

Noteworthy: KL is gonna bring her A332/333 fleet back into the mix too


YUL is actually loaded as a 789 2x weekly in July from the 15th and not the daily 332 that shows in that update. KLM will have quite the jump in Canadian ops next month going from 1 destination (YYZ) to 4 (YYZ/YUL/YVR & YYC).

They also loaded an updated August schedule too. Appears SLC was removed until September.
 
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A333MSPtoAMS
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:31 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Any word on if or when KLM will return to SLC?


Its not listed for next month July it seems,
Here's a recent listing of all intercontinentals: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21jun20/

Noteworthy: KL is gonna bring her A332/333 fleet back into the mix too


Currently SLC is not an approved airport by the DHS for international arrivals. Until that happens it's unlikely KLM or Delta or any others will fly scheduled traffic into that airport. I believe an update wat going to be made by end of June or early July. I'm waiting to see if MSP gets added back.

https://www.dhs.gov/coronavirus/protect ... can-public
As of Dec 2019 I've flown 457,440 miles on 270 flights on 54 airplane types with 60 airlines traveling thru 104 airports. I've visited 60 countries.
http://cronkflies.com
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:37 pm

Orly reopened after 3-months with first flight operated by Transavia to Porto

https://youtu.be/mZO3w8yvQCQ

Transavia plans to serve 50 destinations from ORY representing about 80% of the destinations planned in its pre-COVID program.
mercure f-wtcc
 
LJ
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:42 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Seems low risk. Because full flights or empty flights, either way KL gets free money from government.

There will be no free money, details are still worked out but it will not be free.


Deal has been done (EUR 1Bn loan and EUR 2.4bn loan guarantee on already agreed loans by commercial banks)

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/06/dutch-agree-e3-4bn-loan-and-guarantee-bailout-with-klm/

And one with more details
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air-france-klm-group/klm-royal-dutch-airlines/klm-secures-financing-of-eur-3-4-billion-to-weather-the-covid-19-crisis/

Headline: number of nightflights will need to be reduced from 32,000 to 25,000 and KLM must reduce CO2 emmission per RPK by 50% by 2030..

BTW the job cuts will be announced next week (not to interfere with the good news).
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:12 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Orly reopened after 3-months with first flight operated by Transavia to Porto


Extinction Rebellion activists stormed the runway. How they managed to enter the airfield perimeter? Specially after "The activists warned the airport's security 20 minutes before they stormed the runway"!

Climate protest disrupts reopening of Paris Orly airport after three-month shutdown
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Eikie
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:24 pm

LJ wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

BTW the job cuts will be announced next week (not to interfere with the good news).

Would be a little quick. While it is already announced that jobs will be lost, both publicly and internally, the restructuring plan is still being made. It has to be in effect at the end of october, as it is a requirement for the loans, and they expect to have a rough idea at the end of july. After which negotiations with the unions will start.

That's what the ceo of KLM says at least.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:10 pm

Reuters is reporting an outline for 7,500 job cuts and 20% reduction in 'structural capacity.'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... 411VX?il=0
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:18 pm

AF officially retired the A380 but will they compensate the fleet with new arrivals (787, 350...)? If not then they could end up having a lot of extra crew.
 
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Alsatian
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:45 pm

The 11 CRJ-700s and 14 CRJ-1000s will leave the HOP fleet, only the 32 E70/90 will remain.

https://www.letelegramme.fr/economie/ai ... 574593.php


 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm

Blerg wrote:
AF officially retired the A380 but will they compensate the fleet with new arrivals (787, 350...)? If not then they could end up having a lot of extra crew.


If you read the thread you will note they are freezing deliveries and they will be reducing staff numbers. Details on staff cuts are due July 3rd. One of the pilots union has already agreed to 403 voluntary departures.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:31 am

New leaking that AF plans cut 7,585 full-time equivalent jobs, including 1,025 at the regional subsidiary HOP.

AF 6,560 job cuts concern 430 pilots, 1,560 flight attendants, and 4,560 ground employees at airports or in administrative services. At HOP, 1,025 positions abolished would be divided between 330 pilots, 290 cabin crew members and 405 ground agents.

Also suggested that site closings are planned for maintenance bases at Morlaix(HOP) and Lille. the AF crew base at Toulouse would be eliminated.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-07-01-a ... 21172.html
mercure f-wtcc
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:42 am

mercure1 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
AF officially retired the A380 but will they compensate the fleet with new arrivals (787, 350...)? If not then they could end up having a lot of extra crew.


If you read the thread you will note they are freezing deliveries and they will be reducing staff numbers. Details on staff cuts are due July 3rd. One of the pilots union has already agreed to 403 voluntary departures.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50062788602/ => a brand new AF A350 is parked at the Airbus delivery centre, so right now deliveries continue as Airbus forces its costumers to accept new aircraft.
Good moaning!
 
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Alsatian
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:07 pm

According to this reliable source https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 51809.html (in French), Air France has selected domestic routes that will be transfered to Transavia. As expected, Paris Orly - Toulon / Montpellier / Biarritz / Perpignan / Brest are in the list and there will be also trunk routes outside Paris including Lyon. The 20 main regional markets are :

Lyon - Bordeaux (AF - U2)
Lyon - Nantes (AF - U2)
Lyon - Toulouse (AF - U2)
Marseille - Bordeaux (AF - U2 - FR)
Marseille - Nantes (AF - FR)
Toulouse - Nantes (AF - U2 - V7)
Nice - Lille (AF - U2)
Nice - Nantes (AF - U2)
Nice - Bordeaux (AF - U2)
Marseille - Bastia (XK)
Marseille - Ajaccio (XK)
Toulouse - Lille (AF - U2 - FR)
Bordeaux - Lille (AF - U2 - FR)
Marseille - Lille (AF - FR)
Lyon - Nice (AF)
Nice - Basel/Mulhouse (U2)
Lyon - Rennes (AF - U2)
Nantes - Montpellier (U2 - V7)
Lyon - Brest (AF - U2)
Nice - Toulouse (U2 - V7)

For example, before the COVID-19 crisis, AF had 5 daily CRK/CR7 LYS - BOD on weekdays, with 3 of them operating during the hub banks. Let see how it will evolve.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:21 pm

AF formally today presented to staff its strategic plan which requires 7,580 job cuts by 2022 at AF and HOP!. Estimates 3,700 will be natural attrition/retirements during the period.

After final consultations with the unions, the restructuring plan will be presented publicly by the end of July.

press release (in French)
https://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/comm ... fs-face-la
mercure f-wtcc
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:25 pm

Reuters also picked up the story of 7,580 job reductions. Among the other info is this very pessimistic view:

The French flag carrier, part of Franco-Dutch group Air France-KLM, said it had lost 15 million euros a day during the worst part of the crisis, which also saw its revenues plunge by 95%. It did not see traffic returning to 2019 levels before 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2440QF
 
cockpitherald
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:37 am

Air France had to take this dramatic decision to ensure its existence.

1-) The airline owes approximately $1 billion to the customers whose flights were canceled due to the pandemic.

[threeid] While the airline lost most of its operational income, it still has to reimburse the equivalent of approximately $1 billion to the customers whose flights have been cancelled due to the flight restrictions and lockdowns.[/threeid]

https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/03/air-france-set-to-slash-7-850-jobs-amid-pandemic/

2-) It has to pay the loan it received from the French government. Additionally, the airline says the state loan will not sustain its business in the long term.

3-) The airline retired A380 fleet, which cost it a lot.

[threeid] Early retirements of the A380 fleet cost Air France $500 million. [/threeid]

4-) Air France wants to change its business perspective.

5-) The airline has to save costs to sustain its business.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:06 am

Have they negociated pay cuts ? Or at least a freeze on salary growth ? Otherwise they'll be back in the same spot in a for years from now
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:50 am

How do they plan on changing their business perspective? What is meant by that exactly?
 
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william
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:09 am

https://youtu.be/-ijJfBqViQM

Classy Air France classy. A fond farewell to the A380.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:15 am

Some AF A380s at LDE along with some other big boys.

Image
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:29 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Some AF A380s at LDE along with some other big boys.

Image


That is one impressive, yet sad view........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:45 pm

Not only Air France is having trouble with it's staff, the KLM staff can also be an obstacle in the recovery.

As we all know, KLM is being bailed out by the Dutch government, 3,4bn Euro's in their case. In exchange for this, they asked a reduction in the operation cost of 15%. So we are talking about a company which is technically broke. Their brilliant staff did go to the European Commission today to launch an objection with the Commission against the conditions imposed by the Dutch government on the promised state aid.

Crazy, your company is being bailed out, your job is saved by the taxpayer and yet you find that your personal finances are too much damaged by this. This article underpins it the most: VNC: MOVEMENT KLM DIRECTION RYANAIR WE DO NOT ALLOW.
The union for cabin crews: They blame banks for charging interest at all for the risk they are taking and their position beforehand is: we will not take any pay cuts.

As a Dutch taxpayer I say, let KLM go broke and from letting KLM 2.0 rise from the ashes, with the right amount of staff with normal pay and other benefits. The KLM personal is impossible to work with, they want way too much for themselves, without seeing the bigger picture of the state of the company. KLM is fast becoming Alitalia with an attitude like that from their staff.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Eikie
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
Not only Air France is having trouble with it's staff, the KLM staff can also be an obstacle in the recovery.

As we all know, KLM is being bailed out by the Dutch government, 3,4bn Euro's in their case. In exchange for this, they asked a reduction in the operation cost of 15%. So we are talking about a company which is technically broke. Their brilliant staff did go to the European Commission today to launch an objection with the Commission against the conditions imposed by the Dutch government on the promised state aid.

Crazy, your company is being bailed out, your job is saved by the taxpayer and yet you find that your personal finances are too much damaged by this. This article underpins it the most: VNC: MOVEMENT KLM DIRECTION RYANAIR WE DO NOT ALLOW.
The union for cabin crews: They blame banks for charging interest at all for the risk they are taking and their position beforehand is: we will not take any pay cuts.

I think the underlying reason for the appeal isn't they don't see there has to be done something and costs need to be reduced, it's that they do not agree with a top down intervention from a politician directly into their salaries not leaving any room to negotiate.

In Europe/the Netherlands, there are certain right such as salaries are agreed between employer and employee, the last often represented by an union.
The question is, is it allowed to break those agreements by a third party, circumventing the normal system? There is a huge difference between asking for a reduction in costs and a set amount of pay cuts.

That is what is the reason for the appeal. While you might be tempted to say you have to accept anything to save KLM, there is a limit, there are still basic (labor) rights.
What's the reason for any rights of you have to abolish them when they are needed most?

Besides, what is normal pay? All salaries were agreed upon in a lawfull wat with signatures of both parties on the agreements. And with those salaries, KLM was able to make record profits and reaolve a lot of debts the last couple of years. While now isn't the same as it was and costs have to decreases, it is so typically Dutch to dictate other peoples salaries so they are "normal".
Leave that to the company and the unions and demand an overall savings of X %. Because that is what counts, not the individual salaries.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:17 am

Eikie wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Not only Air France is having trouble with it's staff, the KLM staff can also be an obstacle in the recovery.

As we all know, KLM is being bailed out by the Dutch government, 3,4bn Euro's in their case. In exchange for this, they asked a reduction in the operation cost of 15%. So we are talking about a company which is technically broke. Their brilliant staff did go to the European Commission today to launch an objection with the Commission against the conditions imposed by the Dutch government on the promised state aid.

Crazy, your company is being bailed out, your job is saved by the taxpayer and yet you find that your personal finances are too much damaged by this. This article underpins it the most: VNC: MOVEMENT KLM DIRECTION RYANAIR WE DO NOT ALLOW.
The union for cabin crews: They blame banks for charging interest at all for the risk they are taking and their position beforehand is: we will not take any pay cuts.

I think the underlying reason for the appeal isn't they don't see there has to be done something and costs need to be reduced, it's that they do not agree with a top down intervention from a politician directly into their salaries not leaving any room to negotiate.

In Europe/the Netherlands, there are certain right such as salaries are agreed between employer and employee, the last often represented by an union.
The question is, is it allowed to break those agreements by a third party, circumventing the normal system? There is a huge difference between asking for a reduction in costs and a set amount of pay cuts.

That is what is the reason for the appeal. While you might be tempted to say you have to accept anything to save KLM, there is a limit, there are still basic (labor) rights.
What's the reason for any rights of you have to abolish them when they are needed most?

Besides, what is normal pay? All salaries were agreed upon in a lawfull wat with signatures of both parties on the agreements. And with those salaries, KLM was able to make record profits and reaolve a lot of debts the last couple of years. While now isn't the same as it was and costs have to decreases, it is so typically Dutch to dictate other peoples salaries so they are "normal".
Leave that to the company and the unions and demand an overall savings of X %. Because that is what counts, not the individual salaries.


Sure, I understand and as a principle, you are right of course. I have been talking to some KLM staff and have been following the internal situation within KLM quite closely, albeit as an outsider. To keep any company healthy, there needs to be a healthy balance between the powers of a company and the power of its employees.
Within KLM the power seems to be primarily with the employees and the general attitude seemed to be: KLM is at the pleasure of its employees. Truly self-centered, not person by person, but the general attitude. And now, as a society, we need to bail them out, and the reflex is still: I am not going back in general pay or other benefits. The Dutch government didn't mandate: you need to have a pay cut of 20% for anyone making over 3 times the median pay, they said you need to reduce the cost of 15%.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Eikie
Posts: 110
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
Eikie wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Not only Air France is having trouble with it's staff, the KLM staff can also be an obstacle in the recovery.

As we all know, KLM is being bailed out by the Dutch government, 3,4bn Euro's in their case. In exchange for this, they asked a reduction in the operation cost of 15%. So we are talking about a company which is technically broke. Their brilliant staff did go to the European Commission today to launch an objection with the Commission against the conditions imposed by the Dutch government on the promised state aid.

Crazy, your company is being bailed out, your job is saved by the taxpayer and yet you find that your personal finances are too much damaged by this. This article underpins it the most: VNC: MOVEMENT KLM DIRECTION RYANAIR WE DO NOT ALLOW.
The union for cabin crews: They blame banks for charging interest at all for the risk they are taking and their position beforehand is: we will not take any pay cuts.

I think the underlying reason for the appeal isn't they don't see there has to be done something and costs need to be reduced, it's that they do not agree with a top down intervention from a politician directly into their salaries not leaving any room to negotiate.

In Europe/the Netherlands, there are certain right such as salaries are agreed between employer and employee, the last often represented by an union.
The question is, is it allowed to break those agreements by a third party, circumventing the normal system? There is a huge difference between asking for a reduction in costs and a set amount of pay cuts.

That is what is the reason for the appeal. While you might be tempted to say you have to accept anything to save KLM, there is a limit, there are still basic (labor) rights.
What's the reason for any rights of you have to abolish them when they are needed most?

Besides, what is normal pay? All salaries were agreed upon in a lawfull wat with signatures of both parties on the agreements. And with those salaries, KLM was able to make record profits and reaolve a lot of debts the last couple of years. While now isn't the same as it was and costs have to decreases, it is so typically Dutch to dictate other peoples salaries so they are "normal".
Leave that to the company and the unions and demand an overall savings of X %. Because that is what counts, not the individual salaries.


Sure, I understand and as a principle, you are right of course. I have been talking to some KLM staff and have been following the internal situation within KLM quite closely, albeit as an outsider. To keep any company healthy, there needs to be a healthy balance between the powers of a company and the power of its employees.
Within KLM the power seems to be primarily with the employees and the general attitude seemed to be: KLM is at the pleasure of its employees. Truly self-centered, not person by person, but the general attitude. And now, as a society, we need to bail them out, and the reflex is still: I am not going back in general pay or other benefits. The Dutch government didn't mandate: you need to have a pay cut of 20% for anyone making over 3 times the median pay, they said you need to reduce the cost of 15%.
As far as I understood, the government wants both.
Certain salaries need to reduce by at least 20% and as a whole KLM needs to reduce costs with 15%.
And the first part is what agitates the unions and I see their point. There can still be some discussion how that 20% is divided between the multiple parts of the salaries (pensions, travel comp, etc), but total pay had to reduced by at least 20% for certain employees, that is the mandate.

In Dutch:
https://www.ad.nl/politiek/klm-piloten- ... ~adbcac87/

I am certain the unions will cooperate with reducing costs, as they have done before. But they want the normal way of negotiations between company and employees, not a set reduction in pay because a politician thinks it helps him get votes next elections.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:01 am

Eikie wrote:
As far as I understood, the government wants both.
Certain salaries need to reduce by at least 20% and as a whole KLM needs to reduce costs with 15%.
And the first part is what agitates the unions and I see their point. There can still be some discussion how that 20% is divided between the multiple parts of the salaries (pensions, travel comp, etc), but total pay had to reduced by at least 20% for certain employees, that is the mandate.

In Dutch:
https://www.ad.nl/politiek/klm-piloten- ... ~adbcac87/

I am certain the unions will cooperate with reducing costs, as they have done before. But they want the normal way of negotiations between company and employees, not a set reduction in pay because a politician thinks it helps him get votes next elections.


From the article:
Het is aan KLM en de vakbonden om hier afspraken over te maken. Daarnaast zal er de komende tijd 15 procent in de kosten worden gesneden. Zolang KLM financiële steun ontvangt, mag het bedrijf geen bonussen of dividend uitkeren.


There you go, it is up to the employer and employees to see how it will be implemented. I obviously wasn't at the negotiation table, but I can imagine that the KLM staff gave more than it's ok for politicians to put pressure on the pilot union to restore the balance of power a bit.

You and I haven't seen the fine print in the contract, I think it will be described in such a way, it will meet the legal framework in the Netherlands. KLM knows the attitude of the labor unions, especially from the VNV, pilot union.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingHonu001
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Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:47 am

What I find remarkable about the Dutch, is the willingness to discuss things over and over. Compare that to the AF-side, they just slash and cut, ask questions later. It seems KL is doing it the other way
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:53 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
What I find remarkable about the Dutch, is the willingness to discuss things over and over. Compare that to the AF-side, they just slash and cut, ask questions later. It seems KL is doing it the other way



That's called the Polder model. It is what we are renowned for worldwide! See wikipedia
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
Eikie
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
Eikie wrote:
As far as I understood, the government wants both.
Certain salaries need to reduce by at least 20% and as a whole KLM needs to reduce costs with 15%.
And the first part is what agitates the unions and I see their point. There can still be some discussion how that 20% is divided between the multiple parts of the salaries (pensions, travel comp, etc), but total pay had to reduced by at least 20% for certain employees, that is the mandate.

In Dutch:
https://www.ad.nl/politiek/klm-piloten- ... ~adbcac87/

I am certain the unions will cooperate with reducing costs, as they have done before. But they want the normal way of negotiations between company and employees, not a set reduction in pay because a politician thinks it helps him get votes next elections.


From the article:
Het is aan KLM en de vakbonden om hier afspraken over te maken. Daarnaast zal er de komende tijd 15 procent in de kosten worden gesneden. Zolang KLM financiële steun ontvangt, mag het bedrijf geen bonussen of dividend uitkeren.


There you go, it is up to the employer and employees to see how it will be implemented. I obviously wasn't at the negotiation table, but I can imagine that the KLM staff gave more than it's ok for politicians to put pressure on the pilot union to restore the balance of power a bit.
How much discussion van there be of the final result is already set in stone? Whether they take it out of your pension, your monthly pay or any other part of the whatever they pay, you lose 20% of your money. You can spend 20% less than before.
And, if understood correctly, when not having paid back the loans, which van take 5 years, there are no raises, no inflation compensations. So that 20% will be significant higher in 5 years time.
I obviously wasn't at the negotiation table, but I can imagine that the KLM staff gave more than it's ok for politicians to put pressure on the pilot union to restore the balance of power a bit.

Which is typically Dutch, envious of others pay. I am sure the constant talk of pilots having to pay was applauded by the cabin crew and ground unions, but now they are faced with pay reductions themselves (when earning more than "average", which is almost everybody at KLM who made some steps).And that hurts.
But speaking of power, wasn't the cabin crew not the ones who went on strike a few years back when they had to reduce costs? While the pilots were the first to agree and come to a new CLA?

You and I haven't seen the fine print in the contract, I think it will be described in such a way, it will meet the legal framework in the Netherlands. KLM knows the attitude of the labor unions, especially from the VNV, pilot union.

Well, with the current news of government agencies breaking lots of laws, as in the tax agency, I wouldn't be too surprised if this mandate is not completely thought through.
And it is a right to ask if certain things are legal.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11652
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:35 pm

Eikie wrote:
Which is typically Dutch, envious of others pay.


I do not subscribe to that point of view. I think it has more to do with a sense of fairness.


We'll see what happens in the end, it just doesn't have a great ring to it when these kinds of signals come from the workforce, given the situation KLM is in.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:25 am

"EU Commission approves Dutch plans to provide €3.4 billion in urgent liquidity support to KLM... "

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_20_1333
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:59 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
What I find remarkable about the Dutch, is the willingness to discuss things over and over. Compare that to the AF-side, they just slash and cut, ask questions later. It seems KL is doing it the other way



That's called the Polder model. It is what we are renowned for worldwide! See wikipedia


Well, no.

I've been to Holland before, and for one, this is the first I hear of the Polder model. I think you and I both know what Holland is "really" renowned for !
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:08 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
I've been to Holland before, and for one, this is the first I hear of the Polder model. I think you and I both know what Holland is "really" renowned for !


Windmills, tulips, clogs, pea soup and poffertjes ?
 
Jetty
Posts: 1284
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:47 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
I've been to Holland before, and for one, this is the first I hear of the Polder model. I think you and I both know what Holland is "really" renowned for !


Windmills, tulips, clogs, pea soup and poffertjes ?

Stroopwafels! What else could he mean? :boggled:
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:13 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
What I find remarkable about the Dutch, is the willingness to discuss things over and over. Compare that to the AF-side, they just slash and cut, ask questions later. It seems KL is doing it the other way



That's called the Polder model. It is what we are renowned for worldwide! See wikipedia


Well, no.

I've been to Holland before, and for one, this is the first I hear of the Polder model. I think you and I both know what Holland is "really" renowned for !


davidjohnson6 wrote:
Windmills, tulips, clogs, pea soup and poffertjes ?

Jetty wrote:
Stroopwafels! What else could he mean? :boggled:


Weed :tired: and the red light district :butthead: , is what Thenoflyzone is pointing at i assume. But there is more in The Netherlands than Amsterdam, my friend. Unfortunately tourists seem to forget that. That's why many citizens of Amsterdam are actually happy with the corona pandemic, because "Amsterdam feels like Amsterdam again".

But those two things are unrelated to what FlyingHonu001 said. He was really talking about the Polder Model, in the 90's even admired by then President Clinton.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
LJ
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:46 am

Eikie wrote:
I am certain the unions will cooperate with reducing costs, as they have done before. But they want the normal way of negotiations between company and employees, not a set reduction in pay because a politician thinks it helps him get votes next elections.


The big mistake the unions make is that they view the Dutch government as a government willing to spend money on KLM. Actually, the Dutch government has no intention of spending money on KLM and thus the Dutch government (but we see the same in France) set conditions which ensure KLM will pay back its loans. This view isn't that odd as the Dutch government is very reluctant to provide free money towards specific companies. Thus, for the Dutch government these guarantees and loans are just business.

BTW it will help them at the next elections as any specific deal for KLM would discriminate against other companies. This deal give them an argument against those who arguement against those against any state aid and those who think the government should help. Moreover, it ensures that the Dutch government can show consistency internationally.
 
Eikie
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:00 am

LJ wrote:
Eikie wrote:
I am certain the unions will cooperate with reducing costs, as they have done before. But they want the normal way of negotiations between company and employees, not a set reduction in pay because a politician thinks it helps him get votes next elections.


The big mistake the unions make is that they view the Dutch government as a government willing to spend money on KLM. Actually, the Dutch government has no intention of spending money on KLM and thus the Dutch government (but we see the same in France) set conditions which ensure KLM will pay back its loans. This view isn't that odd as the Dutch government is very reluctant to provide free money towards specific companies. Thus, for the Dutch government these guarantees and loans are just business.

BTW it will help them at the next elections as any specific deal for KLM would discriminate against other companies. This deal give them an argument against those who arguement against those against any state aid and those who think the government should help. Moreover, it ensures that the Dutch government can show consistency internationally.
I am not saying conditions aren't logical, but the way the government decided pilots should be the ones to pay for the loans is a departure of the normal ways reorganisations and state aid have been organised.
The government has already given billions to other companies, including air traffic control, the railroada, bus companies, etc, without those strict conditions and terms they applied to KLM and without always wanting that money back.

So the "discrimination" is allready in place.

But while that can possibly be explained, the specific rules regarding the reduction in salaries is a very significant departure from how things were organised before corona.

When the banks required and were gifted many more billions KLM has " the privilege" the loan, there were no requirements regarding pay of bankers, or management.
There might have been demands for reducing expenses, but no detailed demands on how to achieve that. It was always a thing a company resolved with the unions/workers.

If it really was only business, they would require KLM to be able to pay back the loans. The best way would be to make sure expenses are less than income so there is money left to return to the banks.
Demanding the 15% cutback in costs is therefore reasonable, but why did they not stop there and demanded a specific pay cut of the pilots? That is more than business, that is pandering to the envious people who might thereafter vote for you.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:58 pm

Eikie wrote:
LJ wrote:
Eikie wrote:
I am certain the unions will cooperate with reducing costs, as they have done before. But they want the normal way of negotiations between company and employees, not a set reduction in pay because a politician thinks it helps him get votes next elections.


The big mistake the unions make is that they view the Dutch government as a government willing to spend money on KLM. Actually, the Dutch government has no intention of spending money on KLM and thus the Dutch government (but we see the same in France) set conditions which ensure KLM will pay back its loans. This view isn't that odd as the Dutch government is very reluctant to provide free money towards specific companies. Thus, for the Dutch government these guarantees and loans are just business.

BTW it will help them at the next elections as any specific deal for KLM would discriminate against other companies. This deal give them an argument against those who arguement against those against any state aid and those who think the government should help. Moreover, it ensures that the Dutch government can show consistency internationally.
I am not saying conditions aren't logical, but the way the government decided pilots should be the ones to pay for the loans is a departure of the normal ways reorganisations and state aid have been organised.
The government has already given billions to other companies, including air traffic control, the railroada, bus companies, etc, without those strict conditions and terms they applied to KLM and without always wanting that money back.

So the "discrimination" is allready in place.

But while that can possibly be explained, the specific rules regarding the reduction in salaries is a very significant departure from how things were organised before corona.

When the banks required and were gifted many more billions KLM has " the privilege" the loan, there were no requirements regarding pay of bankers, or management.
There might have been demands for reducing expenses, but no detailed demands on how to achieve that. It was always a thing a company resolved with the unions/workers.

If it really was only business, they would require KLM to be able to pay back the loans. The best way would be to make sure expenses are less than income so there is money left to return to the banks.
Demanding the 15% cutback in costs is therefore reasonable, but why did they not stop there and demanded a specific pay cut of the pilots? That is more than business, that is pandering to the envious people who might thereafter vote for you.


So you are telling me Dutch politicians voted to save KL from the brink of collapse only to be used as an election asset?! That's kinda perverse
 
Eikie
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:52 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Eikie wrote:
LJ wrote:

The big mistake the unions make is that they view the Dutch government as a government willing to spend money on KLM. Actually, the Dutch government has no intention of spending money on KLM and thus the Dutch government (but we see the same in France) set conditions which ensure KLM will pay back its loans. This view isn't that odd as the Dutch government is very reluctant to provide free money towards specific companies. Thus, for the Dutch government these guarantees and loans are just business.

BTW it will help them at the next elections as any specific deal for KLM would discriminate against other companies. This deal give them an argument against those who arguement against those against any state aid and those who think the government should help. Moreover, it ensures that the Dutch government can show consistency internationally.
I am not saying conditions aren't logical, but the way the government decided pilots should be the ones to pay for the loans is a departure of the normal ways reorganisations and state aid have been organised.
The government has already given billions to other companies, including air traffic control, the railroada, bus companies, etc, without those strict conditions and terms they applied to KLM and without always wanting that money back.

So the "discrimination" is allready in place.

But while that can possibly be explained, the specific rules regarding the reduction in salaries is a very significant departure from how things were organised before corona.

When the banks required and were gifted many more billions KLM has " the privilege" the loan, there were no requirements regarding pay of bankers, or management.
There might have been demands for reducing expenses, but no detailed demands on how to achieve that. It was always a thing a company resolved with the unions/workers.

If it really was only business, they would require KLM to be able to pay back the loans. The best way would be to make sure expenses are less than income so there is money left to return to the banks.
Demanding the 15% cutback in costs is therefore reasonable, but why did they not stop there and demanded a specific pay cut of the pilots? That is more than business, that is pandering to the envious people who might thereafter vote for you.


So you are telling me Dutch politicians voted to save KL from the brink of collapse only to be used as an election asset?! That's kinda perverse
No, that is not what I am saying.

What I am trying to convey is that is quite uncommon (in the Netherlands) to dictate how much salary a worker has to give up. Especially without any consultation with a union.
And what makes it even stranger, it's the government making those demands. Normally they want an overall reduction in costs and it is up to the company and workers to work out how. But in this case, the government decided how the coat lowering must take place.

That is highly unorthodox in a country which prided itself as a country in which we solved it together, discussions were encouraged, the already mentioned polder model.

This is all abolished and I wonder why. With pilots only making up less than 10% of the total workforce and by far not all pilots make as much as politicians think, the actual amount of money being saved by this demand is minuscule compared to the overal costs of KLM.
If it purely was about making sure KLM can pay back the loan, a set percentage over the entire line of workers would save a hell of a lot more. But even better, decide upon a operating margin of other target and let KLM figure out how they can do that, after talking to the unions, which was the normal way of doing this until now.

But no, it's the pilots who have to pay and I can only see that as a measure to forcibly, against legal binding collectieve labor agreements, reduce the pay of employees who earn too much in envious eyes.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1284
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:33 am

Eikie wrote:
This is all abolished and I wonder why. With pilots only making up less than 10% of the total workforce and by far not all pilots make as much as politicians think, the actual amount of money being saved by this demand is minuscule compared to the overal costs of KLM.
If it purely was about making sure KLM can pay back the loan, a set percentage over the entire line of workers would save a hell of a lot more.

It isn't purely about making sure KLM can pay back: it's a political decision so popular support matters. There is more support to spend taxpayer money on a company when highest paid staff wages are cut rather than an overall cut.
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