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MIflyer12
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:59 pm

There is a meaningful difference in elevation of those three airports:

JNB, 1694m
MEX, 2230m
BOG, 2648m

Whether that, heat, or other operating parameters forces load restrictions at BOG not applicable at MEX, we'll need 787 dispatch guys to say.
 
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DL747400
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:59 pm

Possibly a sign that KLM will partner LATAM? This would make sense with the Delta / LATAM partnership moving forward.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:34 pm

Irehdna wrote:
But it seems BOG-AMS is doable, after all.
.


It's doable now, most likely with light loads, due to COVID.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
x1234
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:41 pm

With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.
 
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Antaras
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:44 pm

x1234 wrote:
With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.

If LATAM will join the Skyteam.
=====================================================================================================
Yesterday I spotted a KLM 77W landing in SGN. I thought that KLM finally open a new route to Vietnam 'til I checked on fr24 and it was operating under the AFR code :(
More ASEAN and Vietnam, please KL. HAN and SGN are fine hubs of Skyteam members.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
Ferjer
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:48 pm

BOG- Ams are Probably cargo flights, Colombia is closed to passenger flights ( only repatriation) to at least mid Sept.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:10 pm

x1234 wrote:
With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.


And don't forget AR at EZE.

SkyTeam actually covers AM and LATAM and AR. This includes MEX, GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL, LIM. *A through AV and CM.

I could really see Alitalia and Delta increasing flights there when demand restores.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:12 pm

Ferjer wrote:
BOG- Ams are Probably cargo flights, Colombia is closed to passenger flights ( only repatriation) to at least mid Sept.


Does this imply KL is only filling these cargo flights to MTOW for AMS nonstop? I would think fewer (2/wk), heavier flights via CTG is more economical than the current higher 3/wk frequency nonstop. KL obviously has smart guys thinking abt this, but still curious as to how it plays out.
 
FSDan
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:27 pm

Irehdna wrote:
x1234 wrote:
With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.


And don't forget AR at EZE.

SkyTeam actually covers AM and LATAM and AR. This includes MEX, GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL, LIM. *A through AV and CM.

I could really see Alitalia and Delta increasing flights there when demand restores.


LATAM stated at the time the DL partnership was announced that they have no plans to join SkyTeam. They also are planning to maintain codeshares with BA/IB as far as I remember, so deeper ties with AF/KL aren't a given.
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OGLOBAL
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:45 am

I don't think its true . I am scheduled on BOG-CTG-AMS on tuesday the 18th . it was probably a cargo flight . airports are closed in colombia . only few flights are allowed out/in for humanitarian reasons . Mainly AF KL AV operate those flights .
 
dcajet
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:58 am

Irehdna wrote:
Just playing around with FR24, it seems that KL has started a separate nonstop KL703/4 flight between AMS and SCL. It is the longest flight in the airline's network. EZE frequency decreased but not cancelled.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/kl701
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/kl703

Additionally, BOG-AMS eastbound seems to have been moved to a nonstop, bypassing CTG. It was previously assumed that KL needed the CTG stop due to BOG's altitude, but I was always skeptical of that since they could do MEX-AMS and JNB-AMS nonstop. But it seems BOG-AMS is doable, after all.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/kl740

All flights are with the B789.

Very interested especially in the new SCL flight, it's not common airlines start new nonstop routes in a global situation like this.


Not to rain on the parade. but the nonstop AMS-SCL will only last until Argentina opens up its airports for regularly scheduled flights once again, currently scheduled for Sept 1. After that, it is back to the scheduled AMS-EZE-SCL run.

That said, both KLM and AF are operating to Argentina, once a week with passengers, under a special waiver from the Argentinian authorities. KLM has also never discontinued its regular cargo flights to EZE, both with the 74F and 789.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:04 am

x1234 wrote:
With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.


LATAM has no plans to join Skyteam; it is to remain an "independent player". At least that is what was announced before the pandemic. They actually are keeping some of the agreements they had in place with BA, IB and QF, unlike all their ties with AA, which were discontinued.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:12 am

Ferjer wrote:
BOG- Ams are Probably cargo flights, Colombia is closed to passenger flights ( only repatriation) to at least mid Sept.


You are correct, these are cargo flights only as Colombia is closed to regular passenger flight until September 1st. Naturally, they operate to BOG, where there is a cargo/logistics hubs.

I have not heard that CTG is being dropped. Apparently KL did good business there; I am certain it will resume once KL's Colombian ops return to a degree of normalcy.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
kevertje
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:39 am

Antaras wrote:
x1234 wrote:
With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.

If LATAM will join the Skyteam.
=====================================================================================================
Yesterday I spotted a KLM 77W landing in SGN. I thought that KLM finally open a new route to Vietnam 'til I checked on fr24 and it was operating under the AFR code :(
More ASEAN and Vietnam, please KL. HAN and SGN are fine hubs of Skyteam members.


KLM did fly to SGN with medical equipment.
They flew AMS-BKK-SGN-BKK-AMS with PH-BVP
KL888, KL823, KL824, KL887

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ph-bvp
 
factsonly
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Re: KL begins nonstop SCL and BOG, drops CTG

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm

kevertje wrote:
Antaras wrote:
x1234 wrote:
With Delta's investment in LATAM, SkyTeam will become #1 in Latin America with dual west-east hubs in SCL & GRU.

If LATAM will join the Skyteam.
=====================================================================================================
Yesterday I spotted a KLM 77W landing in SGN. I thought that KLM finally open a new route to Vietnam 'til I checked on fr24 and it was operating under the AFR code :(
More ASEAN and Vietnam, please KL. HAN and SGN are fine hubs of Skyteam members.


KLM did fly to SGN with medical equipment.
They flew AMS-BKK-SGN-BKK-AMS with PH-BVP
KL888, KL823, KL824, KL887

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ph-bvp


Indeed, and...... it was noticed in SGN:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
 
LY777
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AF A332 to TLV today

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:02 pm

If I am not mistaken, this is the first time in years (or decades) that AF sends a widebody to TLV for a scheduled flight.
F-GZCH (A332) is currently flying to TLV.

I hope to see more AF widebodies flying to TLV instead of the A320s... AF used to send their A300s to TLV in 80s/90s IIRC
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
hervebkk
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Re: AF A332 to TLV today

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:14 am

Indeed almost never an AF widebody in TLV, but unfortunately the trend for European airlines goes towards A320s to TLV, away from Heavies. LH used to fly there with B747s, A343/346, only Swiss and BA still fly Heavies there on a regular basis, although the original plans for at Swiss Summer 2020 was to downgrade the day flight to a 321, let's see what future brings. KL, OS, SN, IZ, all A320s, IB a mix of A320/330.

I can remember a one-off Air France 77W a couple of years ago.

And yes, A300 were common in the 70s, one of them famousely got hijacked to Entebbe after a stopover in ATH in 1976, F-BVGG, with courageous CMD Michel Bacos, who unfortunately died last year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe
 
airbuster
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Re: AF A332 to TLV today

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:29 am

Just to clarify KL on the 737-900. They sent the md11/777 there a season a couple of years ago but that was shortlived. I know they had crunched the numbers for this summer to send the A332 but it didn’t materialize. I was once told by the AF-KLM station manager in TLV that the landing fees for widebodies at TLV rise exponentially in comparison with a narrowbody.
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davidjohnson6
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Re: AF A332 to TLV today

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:29 am

Why did AF feel the need to send a widebody instead of an A320 ?
It may be great for the widebody-good-narrowbody-bad fan club... but when flying I would far prefer a higher frequency of A320/B737 family aircraft to have maximum choice of flight times
 
JUANTRIPPEJR
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:12 pm

Can anyone tell me where I can find a complete set of statistics on the number of travelers from Paris (CDG/ORY) to destinations all over the world (non-stop and connecting flights)? I am particularly interested in knowing what potential destinations AF could fly to, but actually doesn't. I know anna.aero often provides lists of underserved destinations...but I'm looking for a more complete source (preferably free). I don't know if the French govt. allows this type of info or whether I need to pay to obtain it from OAG.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:17 pm

JUANTRIPPEJR wrote:
Can anyone tell me where I can find a complete set of statistics on the number of travelers from Paris (CDG/ORY) to destinations all over the world (non-stop and connecting flights)? I am particularly interested in knowing what potential destinations AF could fly to, but actually doesn't. I know anna.aero often provides lists of underserved destinations...but I'm looking for a more complete source (preferably free). I don't know if the French govt. allows this type of info or whether I need to pay to obtain it from OAG.



Paris Aéroports publishes monthly stats but not detailed by cities. By countries only.

https://www.parisaeroport.fr/en/group/finance/investor-relations/traffic
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
JUANTRIPPEJR
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:54 am

Thanks!
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:13 am

Interesting article on KL current status of its widebody fleet
Source: https://simpleflying.com/klm-future-fleet/

By the way, what happened to that additional 2x 77W order? Are they still planning on using it?
 
hervebkk
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Re: AF A332 to TLV today

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:22 am

Again today, AF1620 operated by an A332 F-GZCL....

https://www.flightradar24.com/AFR1620/255dec6f
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:06 am

According to various Serbian sources, Air France is suspending CDG-BEG this coming winter. This market will be served by JU and W6.
 
airbuster
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:36 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Interesting article on KL current status of its widebody fleet
Source: https://simpleflying.com/klm-future-fleet/

By the way, what happened to that additional 2x 77W order? Are they still planning on using it?


That article didn’t bring any news to the table. It says that the AF 787 most likely will move to KL. That’s just a thought. More so it doesn’t tell us anything about the future after COVID strategy. And KLM itself doesn’t know that either.

Yes the 777/787 is the long haul backbone. But will we see additional A321LR or a 787-8 in the future? Your guess is as good as mine....
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
factsonly
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:42 pm

September 1st, 2020:

- KLM celebrating 100 Years of HAM-AMS:

Image

This follows 100 Years of LON-AMS which was first operated on May 17, 1920.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:18 pm

AF-KL Group appoints a new head honcho to oversee all restructuring in both AF and KL business groups. Is he gonna be above Anne Rigail and Pieter Elbers too?

Oltion Carkaxhija has been appointed Deputy Managing Director of Transformation of the Air France-KLM group. This appointment takes effect on October 1, 2020. Oltion Carkaxhija will, in conjunction with all of the Group's businesses concerned, implement structural measures to improve Air France-KLM unit costs and optimize external expenses.


Source: https://www.deplacementspros.com/ils-bo ... france-klm
 
Theseus
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:26 pm

airbuster wrote:
That article didn’t bring any news to the table. It says that the AF 787 most likely will move to KL.


I read it slightly differently: it says "KLM will likely be receiving the remainder of Air France’s Boeing 787-9 order", so I guess that means new deliveries go to KL. Not sure about already delivered AF 787s (though it would be more logical to move them to KLM).
I remember seeing this information earlier on a.net, so I do not think there is anything new.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:34 pm

Theseus wrote:
airbuster wrote:
That article didn’t bring any news to the table. It says that the AF 787 most likely will move to KL.


I read it slightly differently: it says "KLM will likely be receiving the remainder of Air France’s Boeing 787-9 order", so I guess that means new deliveries go to KL. Not sure about already delivered AF 787s (though it would be more logical to move them to KLM).
I remember seeing this information earlier on a.net, so I do not think there is anything new.


I think so yeah. KLM A350's order went to Air France and Air France order for B787 went to KLM. Unless it has changed, the already delivered B787's to Air France, will remain there.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:42 pm

factsonly wrote:
September 1st, 2020:

- KLM celebrating 100 Years of HAM-AMS:

This follows 100 Years of LON-AMS which was first operated on May 17, 1920.


Was searching for early routes from KLM, but couldnot find it, anything beyond the LON - AMS route. Which route is next in line to turn 100 ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
airbuster
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Theseus wrote:
airbuster wrote:
That article didn’t bring any news to the table. It says that the AF 787 most likely will move to KL.


I read it slightly differently: it says "KLM will likely be receiving the remainder of Air France’s Boeing 787-9 order", so I guess that means new deliveries go to KL. Not sure about already delivered AF 787s (though it would be more logical to move them to KLM).
I remember seeing this information earlier on a.net, so I do not think there is anything new.


I think so yeah. KLM A350's order went to Air France and Air France order for B787 went to KLM. Unless it has changed, the already delivered B787's to Air France, will remain there.


Yes I get your point of view. I think you’re right the way you read it. It’s the outstanding orders going to KL. Still nothing new though.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:45 pm

“They will have to address their cost base...”

Is that Dutch code for 'sack more employees'? It's a pretty short list of ways to cut costs significantly in a labor-intensive service business. They're stuck paying market prices for fuel and aircraft.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... 640FZ?il=0
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
“They will have to address their cost base...”

Is that Dutch code for 'sack more employees'? It's a pretty short list of ways to cut costs significantly in a labor-intensive service business. They're stuck paying market prices for fuel and aircraft.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... 640FZ?il=0


And in the meantime they hire an expensive consultant firm for their restructuring plans

Source: https://www.consultancy.eu/news/4826/kl ... ng-efforts
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:04 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
“They will have to address their cost base...”

Is that Dutch code for 'sack more employees'? It's a pretty short list of ways to cut costs significantly in a labor-intensive service business. They're stuck paying market prices for fuel and aircraft.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... 640FZ?il=0


Yes, I guess. But aviation is a capital intensive industry, not labor. About 1/3 of the cost is personal. Getting rid of aircraft will be hard at this moment and their fuel cost have been hedged which has cost hundreds of millions. But both will probably have extremely tight contracts, so my guess is indeed cost-cutting on staff is the only way to go. Perhaps some more staff will be outsourced, thus they will be moved and have lesser circumstances. 5.000jobs will have to be eliminated and 20% of the higher pay grades will be cut. `More or less in line with other airlines across Europe.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:29 am

KL's lifeline might be at risk of being suspended after substantial legal action by Greenpeace

Source: https://www.greenpeace.org/nl/greenpeac ... rline-klm/
 
AZa346
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:48 pm

By chance anyone knows what the service currently looks like on Hop-operated AF flights?
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:08 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
KL's lifeline might be at risk of being suspended after substantial legal action by Greenpeace

Source: https://www.greenpeace.org/nl/greenpeac ... rline-klm/


Very much doubt it. Greenpeace is wasting money on a court case which doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell. If I were a contributor I would be very frustrated to see my money go to pockets of lawyers, instead of to the nature conservation projects that really need it :banghead:
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RvA
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:11 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
KL's lifeline might be at risk of being suspended after substantial legal action by Greenpeace

Source: https://www.greenpeace.org/nl/greenpeac ... rline-klm/


Greenpeace obviously has some money to burn on legal fees at the moment. What a pointless pursuit. Even if the deal is now changed (if legally even possible) to include some climate provisions it’s unlikely they would change anything anyway. 787s are already driving down their emissions (retiring 747s also helped) and they will have reduced ops for a few years anyway.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:46 pm

Transavia France announced 5 domestic routes effective November 2 part of the transfer of the domestic activity of HOP!

Paris-Orly - Biarritz
Nantes - Montpellier
Nantes - Marseille
Nantes - Toulouse
Nantes - Nice Côte d'Azur
mercure f-wtcc
 
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Alsatian
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:21 am

Transavia France will add eight 737s to its fleet for the next summer season to get a total of 48 airframes (in french) : https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 58220.html
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:49 pm

Air France CEO Anne Rigail says airline is losing €10mil/day as revenue remains down 70%.
Says previously announced cost reductions including staff cuts might not be enough as recovery appears far on the horizon.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-10-01-a ... 23006.html?
mercure f-wtcc
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:24 am

KLM submitted its restructuring plan to the Dutch government as part of obtaining a government loan and guarantees to the value of €3.4 billion.

https://news.klm.com/klm-submits-restru ... f-finance/
mercure f-wtcc
 
andrew1996
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:54 pm

Any idea why KLM seems pretty aggresive currently in maintaining frequency at daily (or near daily) for most places? Are they depending on AMS as a cargo hub? I have noticed that KLM has been flying daily to SIN when no other European carriers, including BA, is serving SIN on a daily basis with travel restrictions on both ends? In fact, Air France is like 2-3X weekly on a smaller 789 for SIN too compared to KLM's 77W for SIN
 
Ishrion
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:04 pm

mercure1 wrote:
KLM submitted its restructuring plan to the Dutch government as part of obtaining a government loan and guarantees to the value of €3.4 billion.

https://news.klm.com/klm-submits-restru ... f-finance/


"Significant cost savings will be achieved by phasing out leased aircraft and deploying a more efficient fleet"

I'm guessing this should apply to the older 777-200ERs, 737-800s, and A330s?
 
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trickshot99
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:26 pm

AZa346 wrote:
By chance anyone knows what the service currently looks like on Hop-operated AF flights?


I've been taking a lot of internal flights these last few weeks, Mostly Clermont Ferrand or Lyon. In Business the service has been a bottle of water and a hand towel on boarding, and then the service is hot or cold drink (with a very limited selection, but probably not much less than before - coffee,perrier, juices, cola of some sort into a paper cup) and either a chocolate bar or some little crepe dentelle stuffed with cheese things, or both if you want. The service was over quickly since we only had on average 35 people on board (just reporting what I heard the cabin crew say to each other) and they came round with the official Air France refuse bag and took it all away.

They have been uniformly good (from my anecdotal, subjective perspective) and friendly, relaxed considering the circumstances and pretty nice. I find the HOP cabin crew generally are. They announce special arrangements for mask-changing (pop it in the sick bag) and made sure they were taken away quickly.

They didn't wear gloves on all flights, but gel much in evidence.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:56 pm

Ishrion wrote:
I'm guessing this should apply to the older 777-200ERs, 737-800s, and A330s?


Several of the A330's are owned by KLM. There's a rumour about leased 737-700's being returned when their contracts expire. Some of the E190's would stay longer than anticipated, rightsizing the fleet. No official statements yet. New Embraers will still be arriving, now replacing some of the 737-700's, not E190's as planned before Covid-19.
 
777luver
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:09 am

Are the A318s sticking around?
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:48 am

The A330's had already have their retirement dates set for 2025. I wouldn't be surprised if KLM would expedite the retirement.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:14 am

To be more precise: all A333's and at least one A332 are dry lease, so chances are they are indeed on the shortlist of retirement

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