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CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:30 pm

So first I will go more into the loss that the KLM part of the group made, link KLM (Dutch)
my translation:
KLM made a loss of 234mln in Q3. That's a profit reduction of 745mln compared to 2019. Without the 'NOW-regeling' (Government support for labor costs) the loss would have been over 500mln.


KLM meanwhile arranged a voluntary layoff program. And they negotiated new CAO's (Collective Employment Arrangements) with all employment unions. Since today all employment unions, except for the pilot union, have agreed to reduced employment conditions for the duration KLM used the loan.
I expect that the pilot union will budge before the end of this week.

Now I've some questions.
Where did the AF-KLM top commit themselves to?
Can we expect a bonus for Ben(y) Smith in 2022? Or does he get (into his thick head) that is out of the question if he want's the KLM side of the company to function!? This holds ass well for Peter Elbers and the top of Air France.

Another question; The Air France pilots allowed a growth of Transavia (France). Was there a limit for the Dutch side of Transavia?
And did French pilots, cabin crew and ground crew also agree to a reduction in working conditions?
At KLM the working conditions were already worse than at Air France. The new CAO's have payment reductions of up to 20% for the highest payment groups. Did French employees also have to make salary sacrifices for the French state support.
I fear I already know the answer.
Last edited by CFRPwingALbody on Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1388
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:32 pm

PHBVF wrote:
Jetty wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The big problem pilot's union have, is that the pay cut will remain until the loan is paid back. So, theoretically, KLM can just postpone paying back the loan indefinitely to avoid future pay rises for the pilots. And this is more or less signing a blank check which the pilot's union (understandably IMO) don't want to do.

:roll: No it isn't. Part of the requirements of the loan from the Dutch state is that no dividends can be payed unless the loan is payed back, and shareholders (AFKL is the largest) won't want to wait indefinitely for a payout when KL becomes profitable again. The KLM pilots better sign quick because their stance has no support in society whatsoever and they risk becoming paria's with their stubbornness.


Not entirely sure but I believe AFKL have never paid out dividends...

It isn't about AFKL's dividends. KL definitely payed dividends to the group.
 
Orlytrois
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:32 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:47 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
So first I will go more into the loss that the KLM part of the group made, link KLM (Dutch)
my translation:
KLM made a loss of 234mln in Q3. That's a profit reduction of 745mln compared to 2019. Without the 'NOW-regeling' (Government support for labor costs) the loss would have been over 500mln.


KLM meanwhile arranged a voluntary layoff program. And they negotiated new CAO's (Collective Employment Arrangements) with all employment unions. Since today all employment unions, except for the pilot union, have agreed to reduced employment conditions for the duration KLM used the loan.
I expect that the pilot union will budge before the end of this week.

Now I've some questions.
Where did the AF-KLM top commit themselves to?
Can we expect a bonus for Ben(y) Smith in 2022? Or does he get (into his thick head) that is out of the question if he want's the KLM side of the company to function!? This holds ass well for Peter Elbers and the top of Air France.

Another question; The Air France pilots allowed a growth of Transavia (France). Was there a limit for the Dutch side of Transavia?
And did French pilots, cabin crew and ground crew also agree to a reduction in working conditions?
At KLM the working conditions were already worse than at Air France. The new CAO's have payment reductions of up to 20% for the highest payment groups. Did French employees also have to make salary sacrifices for the French state support.
I fear I already know the answer.


Take a few moments and learn about the French activite partielle system in France. Air France employees have been making very large sacrifices since March 23. Take a few moments and compare what the take home pay for AF and KL employees are. I’m sure you can easily find a few colleagues in each division who can give you some information. You might be surprised.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:32 pm

You say that
airbuster wrote:
First of all I am not a victim at all.

But end with
This is bordering ad hominem. I feel disrespected as a long time anetter and long time KLM pilot.

That doesn't add up. Why? You have never heard me say: "YOU, Mr. Airbuster, are the cause of this" or "YOU, Mr. Airbuster, should feel responsible". I was shocked by your comment that you accuse your own company of spreading fake news. And that is attacking your words, not you as a person. I don't attack people here personally. That's low and does not contribute to making a discussion better and I believe the main purpose of a forum is to discuss things and exchange opinions. And since you're a pilot with very good eyes (Yes, I understood your joke!) you could have read that I even stood up for you and your fellow pilots in my previous reply.

I said:
You can look up the comments I made a few months ago when Elbers and Smith received their bonuses over 2019. I was equally upset about that as I am about this.
But please treat us like other employees and not some form of weed within the company thank you.

Oh I absolutely do. Steam came from my ears when a few years ago the folks at AirFrance were striking for higher wages, while at the same time KLM staff had worked their butts off to reduce costs. All the money KLM saved, was wasted with that AirFrance strike.

See? Not attacking, but defending!

I am pointing, again, at the union. And frankly I am not the only one. Both your CEO (1), the(2), general (3), public (4), in The Netherlands (5) as well as a large majority(6) in the House of Representatives think exactly the same. Every union have signed, except for the VNV. Because those unions know that loving KLM and wanting to fight for its survival means accepting harsh austerity measures in exchange for billions of euros in public money. It is the only way to keep the flying dutchman afloat.

And I understand why the Finance Minister has changed the demands for KLM in exchange for the aid, because when they (government + KLM) first discussed the whole support package months ago the outlook for the pandemic was completely different than what it is today. Remember back in February your CEO predicted a 150-200 million euro loss and flight disruptions until April. We hoped that there wouldn't be a second covid wave. Well, surprise: there is one! And it's worse than the first wave. This is a rapidly changing situation. This is a rapidly evolving crisis. This is a crisis without any precedent so we have to adjust ourselves to a new reality every day. You could almost compare it to airlines' constantly changing ticket prices: supply and demand! The demand for flights is not recovering as expected, therefor we are changing/updating/adjusting the list of demands we initially set for the billions of euros of government aid.

He increased the Dutch governments share in AFKL last year.

He did to save KLM's position within the holding!

So yes I do think there is much more to the story than just reducing the KLM pilots salary.

So you're proposing additional cutbacks to save money? You mean things like not renewing temporary contracts, deferring IT investments, cancelling a 2,5% wage increase, laying off at least 5000 staff members, reducing night flights, retiring the 747-400 fleet? Those things? That's what KLM has already done or is in the process of doing.

Call me shameful all you want openly on this forum but sit on your hands next time

As a 2 meter tall guy, flying with KLM has long taught me to sit on my hands. Because there are frankly not many other places I can put them in their crammed economy class seats.
(That was a joke, I hope you get that! ;) )
 
Eikie
Posts: 134
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:58 pm

Pilots have signed after extended discussions, added assurances and insights into previously closed documents.

Word is that the finance minister is also on board.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:27 pm

With that out of the way, without any doubt Ben Smith or some other top brass from Paris will be visiting KL headquarters soon to start the internal transformation process...
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:31 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
With that out of the way, without any doubt Ben Smith or some other top brass from Paris will be visiting KL headquarters soon to start the internal transformation process...


Why? The influence of the government only became bigger with this deal. Furthermore, KLM is still performing better than its French counterpart.
 
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frigatebird
Posts: 1860
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:33 pm

Eikie wrote:
Pilots have signed after extended discussions, added assurances and insights into previously closed documents.

Word is that the finance minister is also on board.

I’m very pleased, and frankly not surprised the pilots union came to their senses.
Hopefully this also puts an end to another conspirancy theory mentioned a few posts upthread.
 
Jetty
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:34 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
With that out of the way, without any doubt Ben Smith or some other top brass from Paris will be visiting KL headquarters soon to start the internal transformation process...

He better start at AF because KL was already way more profitable and I don't think AF made the concession KL staff made, so this will only be exacerbated. On top of that the France GDP declined double as hard as the Dutch GDP.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 489
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:45 pm

IWMBH wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
With that out of the way, without any doubt Ben Smith or some other top brass from Paris will be visiting KL headquarters soon to start the internal transformation process...


Why? The influence of the government only became bigger with this deal. Furthermore, KLM is still performing better than its French counterpart.


Well... Mr. Smith recently apppointed a new EVP Transformation in light of the ongoing crisis. https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/oltion- ... france-klm

With the funding from both national governments now secured, it will be easier to for him to implement the much needed cost reductions within both sides of the group
 
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MrBren
Posts: 356
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:59 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Eikie wrote:
Hopefully this also puts an end to another conspirancy theory mentioned a few posts upthread.


Indeed. Much ado about nothing, as usual.
 
airbuster
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:33 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
You say that
airbuster wrote:
First of all I am not a victim at all.

But end with
This is bordering ad hominem. I feel disrespected as a long time anetter and long time KLM pilot.

That doesn't add up. Why? You have never heard me say: "YOU, Mr. Airbuster, are the cause of this" or "YOU, Mr. Airbuster, should feel responsible". I was shocked by your comment that you accuse your own company of spreading fake news. And that is attacking your words, not you as a person. I don't attack people here personally. That's low and does not contribute to making a discussion better and I believe the main purpose of a forum is to discuss things and exchange opinions. And since you're a pilot with very good eyes (Yes, I understood your joke!) you could have read that I even stood up for you and your fellow pilots in my previous reply.

I said:
You can look up the comments I made a few months ago when Elbers and Smith received their bonuses over 2019. I was equally upset about that as I am about this.
But please treat us like other employees and not some form of weed within the company thank you.

Oh I absolutely do. Steam came from my ears when a few years ago the folks at AirFrance were striking for higher wages, while at the same time KLM staff had worked their butts off to reduce costs. All the money KLM saved, was wasted with that AirFrance strike.

See? Not attacking, but defending!

I am pointing, again, at the union. And frankly I am not the only one. Both your CEO (1), the(2), general (3), public (4), in The Netherlands (5) as well as a large majority(6) in the House of Representatives think exactly the same. Every union have signed, except for the VNV. Because those unions know that loving KLM and wanting to fight for its survival means accepting harsh austerity measures in exchange for billions of euros in public money. It is the only way to keep the flying dutchman afloat.

And I understand why the Finance Minister has changed the demands for KLM in exchange for the aid, because when they (government + KLM) first discussed the whole support package months ago the outlook for the pandemic was completely different than what it is today. Remember back in February your CEO predicted a 150-200 million euro loss and flight disruptions until April. We hoped that there wouldn't be a second covid wave. Well, surprise: there is one! And it's worse than the first wave. This is a rapidly changing situation. This is a rapidly evolving crisis. This is a crisis without any precedent so we have to adjust ourselves to a new reality every day. You could almost compare it to airlines' constantly changing ticket prices: supply and demand! The demand for flights is not recovering as expected, therefor we are changing/updating/adjusting the list of demands we initially set for the billions of euros of government aid.

He increased the Dutch governments share in AFKL last year.

He did to save KLM's position within the holding!

So yes I do think there is much more to the story than just reducing the KLM pilots salary.

So you're proposing additional cutbacks to save money? You mean things like not renewing temporary contracts, deferring IT investments, cancelling a 2,5% wage increase, laying off at least 5000 staff members, reducing night flights, retiring the 747-400 fleet? Those things? That's what KLM has already done or is in the process of doing.

Call me shameful all you want openly on this forum but sit on your hands next time

As a 2 meter tall guy, flying with KLM has long taught me to sit on my hands. Because there are frankly not many other places I can put them in their crammed economy class seats.
(That was a joke, I hope you get that! ;) )


You’re right. Good evening to you sir.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:26 pm

Delete
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:49 am

KLM suspending 4 UK regional markets - Cardiff, Inverness, Southampton and Teesside until March 31.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... is-winter/
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:47 am

French transport minister considering nationalization of AF-KL Group

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ister-says
 
RvA
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:31 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
French transport minister considering nationalization of AF-KL Group

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ister-says


Looking at what he said, and what the headline is it was a waste of 2 mins just looking at this.
 
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adambrau
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:54 am

Doing it the #AirFrance way. Safety, sanitary, professionalism and always caring for our customers. Proud to be part of the team.

https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles ... c4puBmB3CA
 
kelval
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:17 am

Didn't find the other thread with the Covid situation at AF-KLM or I would've posted there, but it seems they are looking for 6 more billions to make it past the crisis.
The funds would come from France and Netherlands governments (3 and 1 billions respectively), and 2 billions from loans.
Here's the source from Le Monde, in french: https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article ... _3234.html

EDIT: sorry typos
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:15 pm

AFKL says the group will require another €6bil as the impact of COVID mounts.
Its forecast French state would contribute €3bil, Netherlands €1bil and €2bil from investors.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-11-17-a ... 24006.html
 
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Boeing757100
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Greenpeace asking to halt $4bn in aids to KLM

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:21 pm

According to Reuters, Greenpeace is going head to head at KLM and AMS airport again. Now, they want to halt government aids for KLM citing that "the government had failed to force the ailing airline to make its business more sustainable." This was after 11 of their members were arrested in May after going into AMS airport by bicycle and illegally entering. I don't know if this is being discussed but I wanted to make a thread...

Reuters link- https://www.reuters.com/article/air-fra ... NKBN27Y1CO

Personally, I've never been a fan of extreme environmentalism but this is taking it too far. I wonder if Greta Thunberg has anything to do with this?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9881
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Re: Greenpeace asking to halt $4bn in aids to KLM

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:28 pm

Why is this taking things too far? It's an action on government spending related to climate change. There is precedent for court review. Do you disagree there's a problem, or more broadly have a problem accepting public airings of opinions different from yours?
 
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Boeing757100
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Re: Greenpeace asking to halt $4bn in aids to KLM

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Why is this taking things too far? It's an action on government spending related to climate change. There is precedent for court review. Do you disagree there's a problem, or more broadly have a problem accepting public airings of opinions different from yours?



I think telling them to halt aids to a crippling airline is too far? Geez, don't need to grill me. :?
 
FGITD
Posts: 1695
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:45 pm

I don’t necessarily disagree with their environmental concerns and the caveats to the bail money. But I don’t think mid-crisis is the time to really stick on that.

It’s a bit like telling someone who’s house is on fire that they need to install energy efficient lightbulb in order to get the fire service. Sure, it’s a good idea and it should be enforced. But maybe put out the fire first.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:09 am

Read today KLM is adding new seats to their 737-800's and Embraer (E190 & E190 E2) fleet. Article is behind a paywall but has anyone got any more info?
 
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:07 pm

The Netherlands is already doing much with eco-taxes.

For example, come January 1st, a ticket tax of €7.45 comes into effect. Rather poorly timed, but it is what it is.
 
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Plane Holland
Posts: 472
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:41 pm

mercure1 wrote:
The Netherlands is already doing much with eco-taxes.

For example, come January 1st, a ticket tax of €7.45 comes into effect. Rather poorly timed, but it is what it is.


Funny how on the one hand they give KLM millions in support and on the other hand they try to make flying less popular.
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:27 am

Hopefully there is someone here that could help me out. The company I work for has a lot of corporate trips throughout Europe and the US. We are unhappy with LH so we are thinking about switching to AF-KL (BlueBiz). Anyone have any experience with both? Is the AF-KL program better?
 
pythoniels
Posts: 41
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:41 am

Depending on how much is spend, you can either choose for earning credits (bluebiz) or get a corporate contract where you can get a percentage of discount on flights, promo fares are excluded from discounts. You can find more information via this link https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/busine ... /index.htm

If your company arranged travel via travel agent, the TA must be notified so they can uodate their codes ik the GDS.
 
pythoniels
Posts: 41
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:44 am

mercure1 wrote:
The Netherlands is already doing much with eco-taxes.

For example, come January 1st, a ticket tax of €7.45 comes into effect. Rather poorly timed, but it is what it is.

And it would be nice if this tax is actually being used for the climate eg greener instead of filling up the treasure chest...
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:54 am

pythoniels wrote:
Depending on how much is spend, you can either choose for earning credits (bluebiz) or get a corporate contract where you can get a percentage of discount on flights, promo fares are excluded from discounts. You can find more information via this link https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/busine ... /index.htm

If your company arranged travel via travel agent, the TA must be notified so they can uodate their codes ik the GDS.


Thank you. Personally I prefer the collection of miles as that's what we had with Lufthansa. I checked out their program and I am surprised they don't have more airlines in it, especially some SkyTeam carriers like Aeroflot or Tarom. Naturally you can redeem miles by flying on them as long as it's a code-share.
 
pythoniels
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:54 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:35 am

Blerg wrote:
pythoniels wrote:
Depending on how much is spend, you can either choose for earning credits (bluebiz) or get a corporate contract where you can get a percentage of discount on flights, promo fares are excluded from discounts. You can find more information via this link https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/busine ... /index.htm

If your company arranged travel via travel agent, the TA must be notified so they can uodate their codes ik the GDS.


Thank you. Personally I prefer the collection of miles as that's what we had with Lufthansa. I checked out their program and I am surprised they don't have more airlines in it, especially some SkyTeam carriers like Aeroflot or Tarom. Naturally you can redeem miles by flying on them as long as it's a code-share.
woth both bluebiz and a corporate contract, each individual passenger can earn miles.

Just the difference is that with bluebiz a company also earns credits which can be spend on tickets also.

Contract works for kl/af/dl and airlines under codeshare I believe.
 
factsonly
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:45 am

This weeks Eurocontrol COVID-19 Performance report indicates that LCC's are now operting less than AF/KLM:

On Nov 19, 2020:

- Widerøe operated at -22% compared to 2019
- Pegasus (-33%),
- Turkish Airlines (-53%),
- KLM (-59%),
- Air France (-79%),
- Lufthansa (-84%),
- Ryanair (-87%),
- BA (-89%),
- Wizz Air (-96%),
- Norwegian (-90%)
- easyJet (-98%).

Number of flights operated:

- Turkish Airlines 578 flights -2% compared to Wednesday 4 November (-13 flights),
- Widerøe (314, -5%, -16),
- DHL Express (289, +1%, +3),
- SAS (288, -15%, -50),
- Pegasus (277, -13%),
- KLM (274, -25%, -92),
- Air France (232, -24%, -72),
- Lufthansa (235, -35%, -125),
- Ryanair (202, -60%, -308),
- Qatar Airways (174, +1%, +2),
- Iberia (124, +9%, +10),
- TNT international (116, +6%, +7).
- British Airways (94 flights -68%)
- easyJet (22 flights -98%).

https://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/defau ... ov2020.pdf
 
inkjet7
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:19 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Here's an open article on this news in English.

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/recaro-ai ... -aircraft/

I wonder if this allows KLM to fit one more row in their 738's.
 
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frigatebird
Posts: 1860
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:44 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Here's an open article on this news in English.

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/recaro-ai ... -aircraft/

I wonder if this allows KLM to fit one more row in their 738's.


Doubt it, KL has just 7 rows of Y in front of the emergency exits, so I don't think it's possible there. An additional Y+ row at the cost of a normal Y row perhaps. Behind the emergency exits they have 16 rows of Y, so only if KL reduces seat pitch from 30" to 28" it would be possible to squeeze in another row if my math is correct. But I don't think this would be wise IMO. Certainly within the TA joint venture with DL and AF it would not go well if KL's product is substantially inferior to the others.

What I find interesting is that the new seat isn't going to the 737-700 and -900, will this mean these are now definitely being phased out the next couple of years? Before COVID-19, there was already talk about some of the E2-195 replacing KL's 73G. Unions were against that, but with the current situation this might be one of the cost cutting measures KLM has to take.

On another fore (scramble.nl) someone with inside knowledge said KLM now has 25 E2-195s on order, instead of 21... Could be a further clue to 73G retirement :scratchchin:
 
inkjet7
Posts: 256
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:03 pm

frigatebird wrote:
What I find interesting is that the new seat isn't going to the 737-700 and -900, will this mean these are now definitely being phased out the next couple of years? Before COVID-19, there was already talk about some of the E2-195 replacing KL's 73G. Unions were against that, but with the current situation this might be one of the cost cutting measures KLM has to take.

On another fore (scramble.nl) someone with inside knowledge said KLM now has 25 E2-195s on order, instead of 21... Could be a further clue to 73G retirement :scratchchin:


Just did some calculations. 5500 divided by 27 (the number of 737-800's minus the four new ones, as they have new seats) we get 203. Interestingly the seats for the E195's are for 15 planes only (at 132 seats per plane).
I agree on the 737-700's. Leases for ten of them expire in 2021 and three more in 2022, leaving just three of which one is owned by KLM.
Last edited by inkjet7 on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 300
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:11 pm

Momo1435 wrote:


Thanks. Never knew that site existed.
 
inkjet7
Posts: 256
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:39 pm

Sorry can't edit my previous posting. Maybe they'll put new seats in the 787-900's as well.
 
marcogr12
Posts: 625
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Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:13 pm

frigatebird wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Here's an open article on this news in English.

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/recaro-ai ... -aircraft/

I wonder if this allows KLM to fit one more row in their 738's.


Doubt it, KL has just 7 rows of Y in front of the emergency exits, so I don't think it's possible there. An additional Y+ row at the cost of a normal Y row perhaps. Behind the emergency exits they have 16 rows of Y, so only if KL reduces seat pitch from 30" to 28" it would be possible to squeeze in another row if my math is correct. But I don't think this would be wise IMO. Certainly within the TA joint venture with DL and AF it would not go well if KL's product is substantially inferior to the others.

What I find interesting is that the new seat isn't going to the 737-700 and -900, will this mean these are now definitely being phased out the next couple of years? Before COVID-19, there was already talk about some of the E2-195 replacing KL's 73G. Unions were against that, but with the current situation this might be one of the cost cutting measures KLM has to take.

On another fore (scramble.nl) someone with inside knowledge said KLM now has 25 E2-195s on order, instead of 21... Could be a further clue to 73G retirement :scratchchin:


Well they already have 186 seats, so it's pretty low-cost..They could add one row like Ryanair does and have 189 seats but they would to rearrange their seating and even out the seat-pitch as it would be terribly squeezy for Y class. According to their site, business class has 33'' and so does economy comfort..So maybe scrap economy comfort on european flights..I am surprised that their 739 have only 188 seats and not 200 or more..When will start receiving their E2-195s?
 
inkjet7
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:20 pm

January 2021 or maybe February. The 737-900's are configured like 737-800's except for the higher number of 33' pitch Business/economy comfort rows.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2807
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:28 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
According to Reuters, Greenpeace is going head to head at KLM and AMS airport again. Now, they want to halt government aids for KLM citing that "the government had failed to force the ailing airline to make its business more sustainable." This was after 11 of their members were arrested in May after going into AMS airport by bicycle and illegally entering. I don't know if this is being discussed but I wanted to make a thread...

Reuters link- https://www.reuters.com/article/air-fra ... NKBN27Y1CO

Personally, I've never been a fan of extreme environmentalism but this is taking it too far. I wonder if Greta Thunberg has anything to do with this?


Attacking airliners for being "eco unfriendly" is extremist virtue signaling. The airline industry as a whole is contributing just 1.9% (!) to total global greenhouse gas emissions. Basically a rounding error. On top of that, AF/KL do offset their emissions. So this Greenpeace nonsense of attacking AF/KL needs to stop.

https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector

Perhaps Greenpeace should take their own advice first and stop cruising the world oceans with diesel powered trawlers.
 
airbuster
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:47 am

frigatebird wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Here's an open article on this news in English.

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/recaro-ai ... -aircraft/

I wonder if this allows KLM to fit one more row in their 738's.


Doubt it, KL has just 7 rows of Y in front of the emergency exits, so I don't think it's possible there. An additional Y+ row at the cost of a normal Y row perhaps. Behind the emergency exits they have 16 rows of Y, so only if KL reduces seat pitch from 30" to 28" it would be possible to squeeze in another row if my math is correct. But I don't think this would be wise IMO. Certainly within the TA joint venture with DL and AF it would not go well if KL's product is substantially inferior to the others.

What I find interesting is that the new seat isn't going to the 737-700 and -900, will this mean these are now definitely being phased out the next couple of years? Before COVID-19, there was already talk about some of the E2-195 replacing KL's 73G. Unions were against that, but with the current situation this might be one of the cost cutting measures KLM has to take.

On another fore (scramble.nl) someone with inside knowledge said KLM now has 25 E2-195s on order, instead of 21... Could be a further clue to 73G retirement :scratchchin:


Clearly they are focusing on the E2s with a 738eurofleet for the coming years. The -700s will go and eventually the -900s (who wants non er -900s anyway?) too. This will give them a efficient fleet with enough flexibility for the coming years. If recovery goes faster then expected you can order the max or the NEO and let some older 190s go. If it goes slow you keep the 738 fleet what it is and delay any replacement order.

KLM is in a good position order wise. Very flexible.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:53 pm

Momo1435 wrote:


Yuck, worst choice possible. These are the seats they put on the 4 latest 737-800s. Horrible, upright and hard compared to what they currently have on the E-jets and the older 737s. They also removed the curtains and gave them the same short armrests as the Air France A320.


inkjet7 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Here's an open article on this news in English.

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/recaro-ai ... -aircraft/

I wonder if this allows KLM to fit one more row in their 738's.


AFAIK, they put the same configuration on the 4 latest 737-800s which have these seats.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4279
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:46 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Attacking airliners for being "eco unfriendly" is extremist virtue signaling.

Greenpeace get a lot of donations from the Netherlands. To keep getting donations, Greenpeace need to be seen “doing something”.

In the Netherlands, Greenpeace has no obvious “low-hanging fruit” targets left to demonstrate against. Environmental laws are quite strong already, as is public awareness.

So that pretty much leaves symbolic gestures such as protesting aviation, protesting farming, protesting car ownership or protesting road construction. Even though in the Netherlands aviation, farming, cars and roads are already more regulated then pretty much anywhere on the planet.
 
777luver
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Are the A318s staying in AF fleet?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:25 pm

777luver wrote:
Are the A318s staying in AF fleet?


They are staying until the A220 starts arriving in a year.

I don't think they are planning to retire the A318 without a replacement. Right now they definitely need the smallest planes they have in the fleet.
 
777luver
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
777luver wrote:
Are the A318s staying in AF fleet?


They are staying until the A220 starts arriving in a year.

I don't think they are planning to retire the A318 without a replacement. Right now they definitely need the smallest planes they have in the fleet.


Thanks!
 
Blerg
Posts: 4998
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am

Air France receives €176.160 from the Slovenian government.

https://www.aviopress.rs/slovenija-obja ... ubvencije/
 
User avatar
ro1960
Posts: 1372
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:19 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:02 am

Blerg wrote:
Air France receives €176.160 from the Slovenian government.

https://www.aviopress.rs/slovenija-obja ... ubvencije/


It is maybe important to specify that it is "subsidies based on a previously announced tender".
 
Blerg
Posts: 4998
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Air France KLM - Master Thread

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:39 am

On a side note, AF further delays their return to LJU. Flights are scheduled to resume on 04.02.2021.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/2020/11/ai ... ljana.html

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