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x1234
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New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:30 pm

Just saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrSQf2L3MQ

I saw QF/BA already using the new terminal. Great architecture, uniquely Chilean. This truly transforms SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights. This will only grow after the world gets over the COVID-19 virus.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:59 pm

How does it transform? Are there more connections available or does the nice architecture contribute to a better transit experience? LA flies SCL-MEL/SYD/AKL/PPT. The only competition is QF (which LA has an agreement with) and NZ AKL-BUE. AR isn't coming back into the market.
 
tphuang
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:03 pm

What is the demand from south america to Australia? That's a serious question. I was just there a month ago and don't remember running into any Australians. I did run into an Australian family in Bueno Aires, but I'm not sure how common that is.
 
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chepos
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New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:11 pm

tphuang wrote:
What is the demand from south america to Australia? That's a serious question. I was just there a month ago and don't remember running into any Australians. I did run into an Australian family in Bueno Aires, but I'm not sure how common that is.

There is a fairly decent sized Chilean/Argentinian community in AUS/NZ. It is not odd to walk around Sydney and hear Spanish, with either a Chilean or Argentinian accent. That being said, I don’t see much more TPAC flights out of SCL than what they have now.


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Last edited by chepos on Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eta unknown
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:12 pm

Brazilians learning English (badly) in Australia.

As for traffic going the other way, many Chileans came to Australia in the 70's, plus there's always wanderlust to see South America.
Last edited by eta unknown on Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:17 pm

x1234 wrote:
Just saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrSQf2L3MQ

I saw QF/BA already using the new terminal. Great architecture, uniquely Chilean. This truly transforms SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights. This will only grow after the world gets over the COVID-19 virus.


Good for SCL for stopping the band aid approach to growth and doing something more comprehensive, but I struggle to see a straightforward argument that this somehow transformational for LATAM, especially as to their TPAC service. Are their gobs of comercially viable TPAC flights they could not start because of space constraints at the current terminal?
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eta unknown
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:20 pm

I too feel the OP is making bold statements without providing evidence to substantiate the claims. Perhaps a better thread is "I like this new building"?
 
x1234
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:31 pm

So with LATAM leaving OneWorld and possibly joining SkyTeam are they still a partner with QF/CX/JL to Asia via SYD? I wonder what will transform LATAM with the Delta investment and management.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:42 pm

They are still a QF partner.
 
dcajet
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:43 pm

x1234 wrote:
Just saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrSQf2L3MQ

I saw QF/BA already using the new terminal. Great architecture, uniquely Chilean. This truly transforms SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights. This will only grow after the world gets over the COVID-19 virus.


A mega hub with only 2 LATAM flights on some days, one on others, between SCL and Australia/NZ before the pandemic? A bit over enthusiastic, don't you think? Certainly SCL is the best positioned hub, geographically speaking, between the two regions. It will take some time before things get back to normal. And with LATAM a free agent now, and with Delta fighting for its own survival (they have bigger fish to fry for the foreseeable future), I am not sure how fast that recovery will be.

And lets not forget that, regionally speaking, you have two other cities (Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo) that generate more O&D demand to Australia/NZ than Santiago does, so as range becomes less of a an issue, these two, and GRU in particular, will get flights that will diminish the role of SCL as a regional hub.
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PA110
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:55 pm

I saw the one of the new gate concourses close to completion with several others still under construction when I was there last year. It seems the design is dictated by space constraints, but the U-shape of the overall project will make transiting SCL about as much fun as transiting LAX or any other airport with that type of design. It's going to be a really long walk from the furthest international gates over to the domestic wing. I certainly hope they are going to expand the passport screening and immigration areas as well. It took well over 45 minutes just to get through security and passport control on departure. One expects those types of times on arrival. Not departure.
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Thomaas
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:41 pm

The experience I had INTL-INTL flying AC EZE-SCL-YYZ was horrible. I've never walked as much in an airport, the U-shape design is the least friendly for connecting passengers.
 
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:44 pm

eta unknown wrote:
They are still a QF partner.


as in pax partners, but I don't know of any cargo agreements between LAN and QF. Cargo agreements do not follow the same path as SKYTeam, OW or STAR.
 
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:45 pm

x1234 wrote:
So with LATAM leaving OneWorld and possibly joining SkyTeam


They said themselves at the time they announced the DL partnership that they are not planning on joining SkyTeam...
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SCQ83
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:11 pm

What is "uniquely Chilean" about the architecture? It looks like another terminal that could be anywhere in the world.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:36 pm

dcajet wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Just saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrSQf2L3MQ

I saw QF/BA already using the new terminal. Great architecture, uniquely Chilean. This truly transforms SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights. This will only grow after the world gets over the COVID-19 virus.


A mega hub with only 2 LATAM flights on some days, one on others, between SCL and Australia/NZ before the pandemic? A bit over enthusiastic, don't you think? Certainly SCL is the best positioned hub, geographically speaking, between the two regions. It will take some time before things get back to normal. And with LATAM a free agent now, and with Delta fighting for its own survival (they have bigger fish to fry for the foreseeable future), I am not sure how fast that recovery will be.

And lets not forget that, regionally speaking, you have two other cities (Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo) that generate more O&D demand to Australia/NZ than Santiago does, so as range becomes less of a an issue, these two, and GRU in particular, will get flights that will diminish the role of SCL as a regional hub.

Australians love visiting South America these days - not necessarily confined to one country but take an example of how many Aussies were stuck in Peru that requires a reparation flight....

SCL and to a lesser extent EZE are used a lot as transiting to other countries in the region. Some even goes via LAX for that matter.

Due to geographical distance this is as good as you can get for now - it's not like anyone can jump in and fly between the two regions. It is one of the most remote flights you can get. And before the pandamic it was up to 5 times daily (LA to MEL, SYD and AKL, QF SYD to SCL and NZ AKL to EZE; I know some routes don't have a daily frequency).

Michael
 
dcajet
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:11 am

eamondzhang wrote:
dcajet wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Just saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrSQf2L3MQ

I saw QF/BA already using the new terminal. Great architecture, uniquely Chilean. This truly transforms SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights. This will only grow after the world gets over the COVID-19 virus.


A mega hub with only 2 LATAM flights on some days, one on others, between SCL and Australia/NZ before the pandemic? A bit over enthusiastic, don't you think? Certainly SCL is the best positioned hub, geographically speaking, between the two regions. It will take some time before things get back to normal. And with LATAM a free agent now, and with Delta fighting for its own survival (they have bigger fish to fry for the foreseeable future), I am not sure how fast that recovery will be.

And lets not forget that, regionally speaking, you have two other cities (Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo) that generate more O&D demand to Australia/NZ than Santiago does, so as range becomes less of a an issue, these two, and GRU in particular, will get flights that will diminish the role of SCL as a regional hub.

And before the pandamic it was up to 5 times daily (LA to MEL, SYD and AKL, QF SYD to SCL and NZ AKL to EZE; I know some routes don't have a daily frequency).

Michael


Just a nit pick - a total of 4 flights on certain days between EZE & SCL: AKL is not a stand alone destination on LA; it continues to SYD on the days it operates
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:03 am

The big prize in the South America- Australasia market is GRU-SYD. These are the only two cities with enough wealth to bring significant new traffic when nonstop service is available - plus an array of connections at each end. At some point Qantas will take it. SCL is an interim way point.
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Elgorou
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:04 am

Somebody has O&D statistics between AU/NZ and South America?
 
volks92
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:41 am

Elgorou wrote:
Somebody has O&D statistics between AU/NZ and South America?

I've looked at last year's arrivals/departures data on ABS and Stats NZ:

Arrivals in Australia
Brazil 58,000
Chile 29,400
Argentina 23,600
Colombia 21,800

Australian Residents Returning
Brazil 21,400
Chile 20,900
Peru 21,100

Arrivals in NZ
Brazil 16,566
Argentina 14,095
Chile 8,740
Colombia 2,061
Uruguay 2,004

NZ Residents Returning
Brazil 5,618
Argentina 6,930
Chile 4,537
Peru 3,172

Estimate of total O&D demand between South America and Australia was ~307,000 per year in 2015 (most recent I could find):
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... melbourne/
 
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:08 am

dcajet wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
dcajet wrote:

A mega hub with only 2 LATAM flights on some days, one on others, between SCL and Australia/NZ before the pandemic? A bit over enthusiastic, don't you think? Certainly SCL is the best positioned hub, geographically speaking, between the two regions. It will take some time before things get back to normal. And with LATAM a free agent now, and with Delta fighting for its own survival (they have bigger fish to fry for the foreseeable future), I am not sure how fast that recovery will be.

And lets not forget that, regionally speaking, you have two other cities (Buenos Aires and Sao Paulo) that generate more O&D demand to Australia/NZ than Santiago does, so as range becomes less of a an issue, these two, and GRU in particular, will get flights that will diminish the role of SCL as a regional hub.

And before the pandamic it was up to 5 times daily (LA to MEL, SYD and AKL, QF SYD to SCL and NZ AKL to EZE; I know some routes don't have a daily frequency).

Michael


Just a nit pick - a total of 4 flights on certain days between EZE & SCL: AKL is not a stand alone destination on LA; it continues to SYD on the days it operates

Thanks, always under the impression that AKL is now a standalone flight!

Michael
 
descl
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:13 pm

Elgorou wrote:
Somebody has O&D statistics between AU/NZ and South America?


Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.
The following list shows the biggest markets between these two regions during 2019:
O&D Pax av. fare
1. SCLSYD: 70.510 $627
2. GRUSYD: 42.845 $699
3. EZESYD: 28.813 $735
4. SCLMEL: 27.953 $788
5. EZEAKL: 26.579 $645
6. LIMSYD: 17.325 $673
7. SCLBNE: 16.191 $1.157
8. GRUAKL: 16.138 $744
9. GRUBNE: 15.834 $681
10. SCLAKL: 15.523 $728

EZE and GRU are not the only cities that generate traffic and wealth with Australia/NZ, as other have said earlier. Chile has important ties with Australia, particularly economic ones related to the huge mining industry.
 
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:25 pm

Last year I did GRU-ZRH-SIN-AKL (LX + SQ) :)
Why fly the easiest route?

Another one I would like to try is GRU-JNB-SYD (LA + QF)

With the current air traffic situation this feels quite impossible.
 
citationjet
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:45 pm

Thomaas wrote:
The experience I had INTL-INTL flying AC EZE-SCL-YYZ was horrible. I've never walked as much in an airport, the U-shape design is the least friendly for connecting passengers.


I agree on the long walks at the new terminal. I arrived in SCL on AA in January of this year. I have never walked so far in an airport to get from the plane to Customs. Hopefully this is due to being partially open due to the construction, and not what the future will be like.
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ScottB
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 pm

descl wrote:
Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.


That's not really as large as you make it out to be, nor is it all that lucrative. Your largest market of SCL-SYD is 7,060 miles so that average fare of $627 works out to 8.9 U.S. cents per mile (or 5.55 cents per km). LATAM reports costs by available seat-km, and that figure for 2019 was 6.50 cents/ASK. Costs are probably somewhat lower than system average for long-haul, but I doubt this flying is especially profitable, if it's even profitable at all. Further: assuming that passenger count is for all O&D passengers, we're talking about 800 total daily passengers each way. That's basically 3 A350s in LA's configuration filled to 78%.

x1234 wrote:
SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights.


If that's your standard for a mega-hub then DL at BOS is a giga-hub for transatlantic.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:17 pm

descl wrote:
Elgorou wrote:
Somebody has O&D statistics between AU/NZ and South America?


Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.
The following list shows the biggest markets between these two regions during 2019:
O&D Pax av. fare
1. SCLSYD: 70.510 $627
2. GRUSYD: 42.845 $699
3. EZESYD: 28.813 $735
4. SCLMEL: 27.953 $788
5. EZEAKL: 26.579 $645
6. LIMSYD: 17.325 $673
7. SCLBNE: 16.191 $1.157
8. GRUAKL: 16.138 $744
9. GRUBNE: 15.834 $681
10. SCLAKL: 15.523 $728

EZE and GRU are not the only cities that generate traffic and wealth with Australia/NZ, as other have said earlier. Chile has important ties with Australia, particularly economic ones related to the huge mining industry.

Where did these figures come from? The SCLSYD numbers look way too high in comparison to GRU/EZE/LIM-SYD. Is this data from MIDT, Pax-IS, or somewhere else? Also, where does GRU-MEL rank along with other large Brazilian cities?
 
dcajet
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:58 pm

eta unknown wrote:
descl wrote:
Elgorou wrote:
Somebody has O&D statistics between AU/NZ and South America?


Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.
The following list shows the biggest markets between these two regions during 2019:
O&D Pax av. fare
1. SCLSYD: 70.510 $627
2. GRUSYD: 42.845 $699
3. EZESYD: 28.813 $735
4. SCLMEL: 27.953 $788
5. EZEAKL: 26.579 $645
6. LIMSYD: 17.325 $673
7. SCLBNE: 16.191 $1.157
8. GRUAKL: 16.138 $744
9. GRUBNE: 15.834 $681
10. SCLAKL: 15.523 $728

EZE and GRU are not the only cities that generate traffic and wealth with Australia/NZ, as other have said earlier. Chile has important ties with Australia, particularly economic ones related to the huge mining industry.

Where did these figures come from? The SCLSYD numbers look way too high in comparison to GRU/EZE/LIM-SYD. Is this data from MIDT, Pax-IS, or somewhere else? Also, where does GRU-MEL rank along with other large Brazilian cities?


The SCL numbers skew high because SCL had the only nonstops to Australia in the region. Not all of those are O&D. I think a more accurate representation of actual demand are the AKL-EZE and AKL-SCL numbers.
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MatheusLPV
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:09 pm

Do you guys really believe that SLC could turn into a gateway to Oceania and Asia ? I mean boosting capacity and launching new flights to Asia...
 
dcajet
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:41 pm

MatheusLPV wrote:
Do you guys really believe that SLC could turn into a gateway to Oceania and Asia ? I mean boosting capacity and launching new flights to Asia...


Do you mean SLC as in Salt Lake City or SCL as in Santiago de Chile? The thread is about the latter.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:04 pm

x1234 wrote:
So with LATAM leaving OneWorld and possibly joining SkyTeam are they still a partner with QF/CX/JL to Asia via SYD? I wonder what will transform LATAM with the Delta investment and management.


LATAM will be unaligned after leaving oneworld (not unlike how China Southern is unaligned after leaving SkyTeam). The major reason for leaving oneworld is because of the DL stake. However, I do wonder if there could be more destinations within Oceania. LATAM flies SCL-IPC-PPT, but does not serve NAN, and Fiji Airways doesn't serve NAN-SCL or even NAN-PPT. Might a SCL-NAN flight be in the future, 3x weekly on the B789? I do realize that a major difficulty in planning this route is a suitable alternate on the westbound trip---the nearest suitable alternates to NAN for a wide-body are AKL and RAR, meaning one basically has to take off from SCL at MTOW, unless a stop is made at IPC.) It's actually easier to plan routes to Australia than to Fiji based on that. I wonder if SCL-BNE could be considered 3x-4x weekly.

As mentioned, no one has flown NAN-PPT in about 20 years. Could LATAM be granted fifth-freedom rights on that route, with SCL-IPT-PPT extended to NAN 2x weekly on a B788?
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dcajet
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:14 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
So with LATAM leaving OneWorld and possibly joining SkyTeam are they still a partner with QF/CX/JL to Asia via SYD? I wonder what will transform LATAM with the Delta investment and management.


LATAM will be unaligned after leaving oneworld (not unlike how China Southern is unaligned after leaving SkyTeam). The major reason for leaving oneworld is because of the DL stake. However, I do wonder if there could be more destinations within Oceania. LATAM flies SCL-IPC-PPT, but does not serve NAN, and Fiji Airways doesn't serve NAN-SCL or even NAN-PPT. Might a SCL-NAN flight be in the future, 3x weekly on the B789? (A major difficulty in planning this route is a suitable alternate on the westbound trip---the nearest suitable alternates to NAN for a wide-body are AKL and RAR, meaning one basically has to take off from SCL at MTOW.)


There is next to no demand between Fiji and South America that would warrant such a flight.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:42 pm

Very nice terminal. Someone posted above that it is a kind of outdated design for pax comfort, but I understand it was built that way due the fact that a very large proportion of the pax using the airport are going to be O/D.

Speaking of the thread title, although SCL has a role in connecting the existing demand between the south cone and the south pacific, it will hardly become a "megahub". It is one of the most isolated major airports in the world who's only connection market is precisely this niche of Southern Cone-Australia/NZ. We're talking of maximum 5-6 flights a day in 10 years if travel demand has strong growth. Also, although favorably placed for connections from Southern Brazil, Peru and Argentina, SCL has to compete with LAX for most of the traffic originating north of LIM into the South Pacific. LAX, having more offer, also has lower prices, so pax from BOG or UIO won't mind a slightly longer flight time. As other posters said above, SCL will eventually lose some connecting pax when GRU-Aus/NZ flights open, diminishing its role a little bit.

So, I would rather call SCL a gateway (not a mega-hub) between the southern cone and the south pacific. It is true that SCL is doing a fine job as a gateway between those regions and I'm glad they got the new facilities up and running. They look very nice. The growth of SCL in pax numbers with its goegrapihc position is also astounding.
 
descl
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:24 pm

ScottB wrote:
descl wrote:
Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.


That's not really as large as you make it out to be, nor is it all that lucrative. Your largest market of SCL-SYD is 7,060 miles so that average fare of $627 works out to 8.9 U.S. cents per mile (or 5.55 cents per km). LATAM reports costs by available seat-km, and that figure for 2019 was 6.50 cents/ASK. Costs are probably somewhat lower than system average for long-haul, but I doubt this flying is especially profitable, if it's even profitable at all. Further: assuming that passenger count is for all O&D passengers, we're talking about 800 total daily passengers each way. That's basically 3 A350s in LA's configuration filled to 78%.

x1234 wrote:
SCL's role as LATAM's mega-hub between South America & Australia/NZ for their TPAC flights.


If that's your standard for a mega-hub then DL at BOS is a giga-hub for transatlantic.

Your analysis about LATAM´s profitability on these routes is wrong, because you are using the company´s total CASK, which considers its domestic network and international shorthaul and longhaul routes, at an average length of ~1.000 miles. The longer the route, in general, the lowest the CASK. In this case, considering SCL-SYD at 7.060 miles, and adjusting its total CASK to this length, this route would have a CASK way below 5,5 cents/KM. On the other hand, you are considering only the SCL-SYD segment (the market with lowest av. fare), and not others like SCL-BNE at an av. fare of $1.157, so its RASK is higher than 5,55 cents/ASK.
FYI, LAX-AU/NZ has an av fare of $707 each way, and LAX-SYD is 7.488 miles.
Last edited by descl on Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
descl
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Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:32 pm

eta unknown wrote:
descl wrote:
Elgorou wrote:
Somebody has O&D statistics between AU/NZ and South America?


Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.
The following list shows the biggest markets between these two regions during 2019:
O&D Pax av. fare
1. SCLSYD: 70.510 $627
2. GRUSYD: 42.845 $699
3. EZESYD: 28.813 $735
4. SCLMEL: 27.953 $788
5. EZEAKL: 26.579 $645
6. LIMSYD: 17.325 $673
7. SCLBNE: 16.191 $1.157
8. GRUAKL: 16.138 $744
9. GRUBNE: 15.834 $681
10. SCLAKL: 15.523 $728

EZE and GRU are not the only cities that generate traffic and wealth with Australia/NZ, as other have said earlier. Chile has important ties with Australia, particularly economic ones related to the huge mining industry.

Where did these figures come from? The SCLSYD numbers look way too high in comparison to GRU/EZE/LIM-SYD. Is this data from MIDT, Pax-IS, or somewhere else? Also, where does GRU-MEL rank along with other large Brazilian cities?

From Milanamos, very similar to MIDT.
GRU-MEL is 11th 14.494 pax, av. fare $845 each way,
GIG-SYD is 14th with 10.028 pax. av. fare $838 each way.
Total Brazil Aus/NZ is about 180.000 pax.
 
descl
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:39 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:44 pm

dcajet wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
descl wrote:

Im copying this information I shared some weeks ago in another thread: The O&D between South America and Oceania is quite big: 581.907 with an average fare of $787 each way.
The following list shows the biggest markets between these two regions during 2019:
O&D Pax av. fare
1. SCLSYD: 70.510 $627
2. GRUSYD: 42.845 $699
3. EZESYD: 28.813 $735
4. SCLMEL: 27.953 $788
5. EZEAKL: 26.579 $645
6. LIMSYD: 17.325 $673
7. SCLBNE: 16.191 $1.157
8. GRUAKL: 16.138 $744
9. GRUBNE: 15.834 $681
10. SCLAKL: 15.523 $728

EZE and GRU are not the only cities that generate traffic and wealth with Australia/NZ, as other have said earlier. Chile has important ties with Australia, particularly economic ones related to the huge mining industry.

Where did these figures come from? The SCLSYD numbers look way too high in comparison to GRU/EZE/LIM-SYD. Is this data from MIDT, Pax-IS, or somewhere else? Also, where does GRU-MEL rank along with other large Brazilian cities?


The SCL numbers skew high because SCL had the only nonstops to Australia in the region. Not all of those are O&D. I think a more accurate representation of actual demand are the AKL-EZE and AKL-SCL numbers.

Yes, they are O&D. Sure, the fact that SCL is the only airport to have direct flights to Australia, helps increasing the total O&D, but this does not explain all the gap in numbers comparing SCL-SYD to EZE/GRU-SYD.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6986
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:57 pm

descl wrote:
Your analysis about LATAM´s profitability on these routes is wrong, because you are using the company´s total CASK, which considers its domestic network and international shorthaul and longhaul routes, at an average lenght of ~1.000 miles. The longer the route, in general, the lowest the CASK. In this case, considering SCL-SYD at 7.060 miles, and adjusting its total CASK to this lenght, this route would have a CASK way below 5,5 cents/KM. On the other hand, you are considering only the SCL-SYD segment (the market with lowest av. fare), and not others like SCL-BNE at an av. fare of $1.157, so its RASK is higher than 5,55 cents/ASK.
FYI, LAX-AU/NZ has an av fare of $707 each way, and LAX-SYD is 7.488 miles.


I acknowledged that long-haul sectors will have lower costs than system average. However, we're only talking about yield at 5.5 cents/km, RASK will be lower than that. LATAM also reported its international passenger RASK at 5.8 cents and a yield of 5.5 cents also lags that figure. I picked SCL-SYD because it is the largest. SCL-BNE is less than a quarter the size and it's an outlier compared to the other markets in the top 10.

I make no representations as to the profitability of LAX-AUS/NZL.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14469
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:00 pm

ScottB wrote:
descl wrote:
Your analysis about LATAM´s profitability on these routes is wrong, because you are using the company´s total CASK, which considers its domestic network and international shorthaul and longhaul routes, at an average lenght of ~1.000 miles. The longer the route, in general, the lowest the CASK. In this case, considering SCL-SYD at 7.060 miles, and adjusting its total CASK to this lenght, this route would have a CASK way below 5,5 cents/KM. On the other hand, you are considering only the SCL-SYD segment (the market with lowest av. fare), and not others like SCL-BNE at an av. fare of $1.157, so its RASK is higher than 5,55 cents/ASK.
FYI, LAX-AU/NZ has an av fare of $707 each way, and LAX-SYD is 7.488 miles.


I acknowledged that long-haul sectors will have lower costs than system average. However, we're only talking about yield at 5.5 cents/km, RASK will be lower than that. LATAM also reported its international passenger RASK at 5.8 cents and a yield of 5.5 cents also lags that figure. I picked SCL-SYD because it is the largest. SCL-BNE is less than a quarter the size and it's an outlier compared to the other markets in the top 10.

I make no representations as to the profitability of LAX-AUS/NZL.


CASM doesn't decrease forever. At some point, stage length becomes long enough relative to aircraft range that costs start creeping back up. I'm not sure these South Pacific routes are long enough that this effect is significant, but it's something else to keep in mind when discussing costs.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:44 pm

descl wrote:
dcajet wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Where did these figures come from? The SCLSYD numbers look way too high in comparison to GRU/EZE/LIM-SYD. Is this data from MIDT, Pax-IS, or somewhere else? Also, where does GRU-MEL rank along with other large Brazilian cities?


The SCL numbers skew high because SCL had the only nonstops to Australia in the region. Not all of those are O&D. I think a more accurate representation of actual demand are the AKL-EZE and AKL-SCL numbers.

Yes, they are O&D. Sure, the fact that SCL is the only airport to have direct flights to Australia, helps increasing the total O&D, but this does not explain all the gap in numbers comparing SCL-SYD to EZE/GRU-SYD.


Many of those O&D are most likely coming to SCL via another flight with a different ticket and are counted as having initiated the trip in SCL, whether on LA or QF.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3372
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:44 pm

descl wrote:
Yes, they are O&D. Sure, the fact that SCL is the only airport to have direct flights to Australia, helps increasing the total O&D, but this does not explain all the gap in numbers comparing SCL-SYD to EZE/GRU-SYD.


The nonstop flight creates two effects in the data. One is real: More people will travel if there is more convenient service, and nonstops will make a difference for some travelers. For example, a couple living in SCL may consider a week vacation in Sydney or in Madrid, but a couple living in Sao Paulo will find a trip to Sydney much less convenient. The second effect is not real: Some connecting passengers get counted as nonstop passengers because of something in their itinerary - they might have booked separate tickets, or there is an overnight connection. So a passenger doing GRU-SCL-SYD gets counted as nonstop traffic in both GRU-SCL and SCL-SYD and does not show in the GRU-SYD statistic.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:07 pm

On a related note, this Friday LATAM will operate a SYD-EZE repatriation flight for Argentinian citizens stranded in Australia. The flight will be operated by LATAM Chile with a 787-9; initially it was going to include a stop in SCL but it will now fly directly between SYD and EZE, a distance of 7.326 miles.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:39 pm

citationjet wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
The experience I had INTL-INTL flying AC EZE-SCL-YYZ was horrible. I've never walked as much in an airport, the U-shape design is the least friendly for connecting passengers.


I agree on the long walks at the new terminal. I arrived in SCL on AA in January of this year. I have never walked so far in an airport to get from the plane to Customs. Hopefully this is due to being partially open due to the construction, and not what the future will be like.


Yes, SCL has been suffering unusually long walk times as passengers must walk through sterile corridors between new and old buildings to use existing immigration facilities. My understanding is this should get much better once the project is complete.
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:44 pm

eta unknown wrote:
How does it transform? Are there more connections available or does the nice architecture contribute to a better transit experience? LA flies SCL-MEL/SYD/AKL/PPT. The only competition is QF (which LA has an agreement with) and NZ AKL-BUE. AR isn't coming back into the market.


The prior international terminal at SCL has miserably poor amenities: we're squarely in TGI Friday's territory here, with lounges and wait areas literally falling apart at the seams (I watched a pipe burst at one during my last visit!). The new terminal will allow for a more comfortable experience for all types of passengers, and will make transiting SCL a much more positive experience.

The new facility should offer the amenities and services needed for both DL/LA and AA to build out their SCL schedules to North America, as well as offering a dramatically more attractive transit experience for connecting passengers from Brazil proceeding onward to Oceania.

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