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jerseyewr777
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EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:58 am

After 36 years Virgin Atlantic drops EWR!! So sad to see this one gone!!! Odd this was the only route dropped in their network!!! I'm sure Delta played a part in this!!! VS did have a newly updated lounge at EWR!

After 30 years LH has dropped EWR-DUS. This one is rather confusing though. Eurowings only daily long haul route this summer was EWR-DUS along with this operating year round. EW has decided to keep JFK-DUS which is seasonal & less than daily. Based on their schedule before this pandemic you would think EWR was their most profitable route. The only long haul route dropped from the EW network so far has been EWR.

Seems to be a trend here???

I'm going to guess EWR is going to lose quite a few more airlines to JFK after Covid-19 is all said & done :(
 
Lootess
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:05 am

VS1 LHR-EWR was always one of my favorite routes, I remember first taking it when VS-CO had the codeshare on the 747. I had no appetite to take CO LGW-EWR.

Forced consolidation was inevitable with the virus.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:44 am

Surely these routes will be back live when the crisis ends?
Vahroone
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:55 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Surely these routes will be back live when the crisis ends?

The pandemic crisis ending, and the aviation market crisis ending, are two completely separate concepts.

One might be over in a few weeks/months... the other will take yearrrrrssss
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Toinou
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:04 am

Surely is a word I surely use only with lots of caution at the moment.
 
VS11
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:58 pm

The traffic at EWR has decreased quite dramatically. My apt overlooks EWR traffic and it is almost non-existent. It is mostly FedEx and UPS.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:13 pm

I think the poster means these armor lines are not returning at all
 
ddaly241
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:29 pm

I hope all the airlines in EWR stay at EWR and none of them drops out.
 
VS11
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:35 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I think the poster means these armor lines are not returning at all


Sure. But nobody knows at this time what the future holds. Flights might return but not daily initially.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:50 pm

VS11 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
I think the poster means these armor lines are not returning at all


Sure. But nobody knows at this time what the future holds. Flights might return but not daily initially.


EW and VS hVe both confirmed they will not be returning to EWR.
 
transportgeek
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:18 pm

jerseyewr777 wrote:
Seems to be a trend here???

I'm going to guess EWR is going to lose quite a few more airlines to JFK after Covid-19 is all said & done :(


This trend you point out of airlines cutting routes and flights in the current climate is not unique to EWR..... JFK will also lose some carriers and routes as well; both airports will be handling much less traffic for the next few years at least... none of us know anything yet - these are unprecedented times

IMO the poster is trying to flare up another JFK v EWR debate that we all love having on this website.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:21 pm

I don't think two carriers dropping routes establishes a strong trend. Why would DL discourage VS from running EWR-LHR if it were profitable in the context of their 49% equity stake and anti-trust immunized JV?

PANYNJ reports ending 9/2019 show 71 foreign carriers at JFK and 28 at EWR.
 
drdisque
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:27 pm

EW returning to EWR on the backside of this would be easy because: they could piggyback on any LH contracts. If EWR expansion moves forward there will be more FIS gates at attractive times. If EW becomes a larger consolidated carrier it reasons to believe that they'd develop a codeshare with UA.
 
Blerg
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm

drdisque wrote:
EW returning to EWR on the backside of this would be easy because: they could piggyback on any LH contracts. If EWR expansion moves forward there will be more FIS gates at attractive times. If EW becomes a larger consolidated carrier it reasons to believe that they'd develop a codeshare with UA.


From what I know Eurowings has completely suspended this route. I don't know if they will even fly long-haul in the future.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:35 pm

Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.

Moving forward, Eurowings will not be returning to EWR following this. I have reached out to bother Lufthansa and Eurowings which both told me it was cut due to an aircraft shortage (LH took aircraft away from EW). I do not think this cut was smart because not only do they have JV with UA but they also planned to increase the flights to EWR this summer. They recently made JFK a seasonal flight and with less frequencies than EWR. Airlines need to realize this is not a time for prestige but more for economics.
 
ferminbrif
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:49 pm

As a matter of fact, everybody everywhere is feelling the efects of covid-19. It’s gonna be that way even for one more year at least...
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:56 pm

I've seen lots of speculation pieces over the last week or so about what international travel looks like post-pandemic. All speculation, mind you, but there seems to be a lot of appetite for tighter travel rules, health documents, proof of (still not invented) vaccines. Even talk of tighter border regulations within Europe. A lot of it is baseless for sure, but if even some of them come to pass, that's a lot different than pre-pandemic rules.
 
catiii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:57 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.


Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.
 
Toinou
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PANYNJ reports ending 9/2019 show 71 foreign carriers at JFK and 28 at EWR.


In itself, I guess it's not the most relevant data as it is not saying much in terms of traffic or revenue.

I guess most foreign airlines fly to NY primarily for O/D traffic. In this case, the choice of the airport is not driven by what can of connections they can offer there. What matters can be some very objective factors like ground service price, access to the city, geographical distribution of the target customers. All those can vary and favour either EWR or JFK. This debate happened here many times and I'm not going to start it again.
The other aspect that can influence the decision is highly subjective: it is a question of image, reputation or even prestige. For many carriers, NY is a prestige route, no matter if it is lucrative or not. And from what I say from Europe, on this aspect, JFK is by far ahead. Many people don't really know other airports in NY. Others have a bad image of EWR, and to that extant of New Jersey as a whole. This is influenced by many references in US popular culture (like movies or TV series) that are the way most of the world get in touch with US reality.
I would tend to say that this aspect may by much more resilient to crises than more objective arguments. This may be part of an explanation if the current situation turns out affecting more EWR than JFK.

Taking all this into account, I would say it is not that strange there are more foreign airlines in JFK than in EWR. But once again, it is only a very limited metric.
 
anrec80
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:12 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Surely these routes will be back live when the crisis ends?


It's too early to say. During the virus, least profitable or money losing routes are the first to go, and once time comes to restore, the first ones to be picked up would be money makers. Similar things happen every recession, or circumstances such as this one. Easy to do from public view standpoint.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:17 pm

VS dropping EWR was likely in the cards before COVID19. DL tried to make an EWR mini-TATL operation viable several years back by re-instating the NW EWR-AMS route, taking over the AF EWR-CDG route, and for a time operated its own EWR-LHR alongside the VS flights. Each DL route was gradually pulled back to focus on JFK. The drop in traffic at EWR is all attributed to UA pulling down 90% of its systemwide schedule for April. If and when the pandemic abates, EWR will see a gradual ramp up but it will take time. EWR is a valuable airport for UA. It's one of the most profitable hubs it has (and was CO's single most profitable hub prior). The image of NJ or perceptions of it really having to do with EWR"s placement. UA has a big base of FF's in the tri state area, it is a global hub for the airline far beyond what DL, AA, and B6 operate at JFK. If you live on Long Island, parts of CT, or Westchester, then yes, maybe you won't use EWR, in much the same way that folks in NJ may not use LGA or JFK. It's all about geography and catchment and EWR is pretty close to Manhattan where a lot of traffic is pulled from.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:19 pm

catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.


Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:14 pm

Survival mode guys

Time to get real

You will see many airlines pick one airport in a city with multiple airports and consolidate operations there. Be it JFK or EWR, look for lots of consolidation to save costs
 
Lootess
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:55 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Survival mode guys

Time to get real

You will see many airlines pick one airport in a city with multiple airports and consolidate operations there. Be it JFK or EWR, look for lots of consolidation to save costs


Bingo, especially since the DOT directive for the relief package allows consolidation of services in a metro with multiple airports.
 
cokepopper
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:06 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.


Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.



Again not factual. Yes there was a slot deal for “some” slots. Not all. Delta wasn’t planning on leaving EWR.
 
FSDan
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:11 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.


Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


Note that catiii has been contributing to this forum for 10 years longer than you have... Maybe reconsider who knows much about air travel?

You started your post complaining about rumors and misinformation, and then immediately pivoted to spewing statements for which you likely have no proof. Can you please provide a link to the statement from DL where they discussed forcing SkyTeam partners to pull out of EWR?

What catiii means by saying "LF means nothing", is that a high load factor doesn't mean a flight is profitable. Obviously low load factors aren't going to help profitability, but high load factors are often used on here (like the way you used it in your post) as proof that a given flight is successful, which isn't necessarily the case.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
cokepopper
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:25 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.


Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


Then why would Delta ADD new cities out of EWR to BOS and RDU and increase mainline to their hubs if they had no interest in ewr? Also there was talk of returning to Amsterdam. Btw AMS and LHR were suspended and CDG was cancelled. All happened AFTER the slot deal were delta paid $ for JfK slots and UA didn’t get deltas EWR slots.
 
ltbewr
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:41 pm

The current times are causing very wild changes but economics are taking over.
I recall taking VS out of EWR when they only had the 1 747 ('Virgin Flyer'), operated out of a tiny part of Terminal C (the shell was built with A & B in the 1970's. In the mid-1980's EWR wanted to have service to London area. At first I recall there was scheduled charter flights to LGW (don't recall the airline) then PeopleExperess, also to LGW and to balance with the UK, at first, British Caledonia and when it merged with BA then VS got the opening.
It makes financial and practical sense to consolidate all VS operations at JFK where part owner DL has a major international flight presence.

I live about 15 miles north of EWR, and depending on the winds, under a main approach path. Around 5 to 7 PM, it would be plane after plane a few minutes apart. Now is maybe every 15 minutes, mainly FedEx and UPS.
 
N649DL
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:44 pm

Yeah it's surprising considering VS was among one of the first Euro carriers at EWR from back in the 1980s.

However, I thought I checked this before the COVID-19 outbreak and VS had already dropped EWR. Is that correct?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:47 pm

cokepopper wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:

Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


Then why would Delta ADD new cities out of EWR to BOS and RDU and increase mainline to their hubs if they had no interest in ewr? Also there was talk of returning to Amsterdam. Btw AMS and LHR were suspended and CDG was cancelled. All happened AFTER the slot deal were delta paid $ for JfK slots and UA didn’t get deltas EWR slots.
cokepopper wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:

Delta had an issue (this is why the PANYNJ took 2 gates away from them) that they were not meeting the minimum number of departures.

Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.



Again not factual. Yes there was a slot deal for “some” slots. Not all. Delta wasn’t planning on leaving EWR.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:51 pm

jerseyewr777 wrote:
After 36 years Virgin Atlantic drops EWR!! So sad to see this one gone!!! Odd this was the only route dropped in their network!!! I'm sure Delta played a part in this!!! VS did have a newly updated lounge at EWR!


Not odd at all. I didn't even realize VS served EWR. Of course, this is hardly the time for nostalgia. If anything, the primary reason Virgin Atlantic served EWR in the first place may very well have been a desire to serve the New York City market but a lack of access (be it route authority, slots, terminal facilities, etc.) to the much preferred JFK airport. Now that VS has built up a competitive operation at JFK, there is very little need for EWR service. Surely folks that prefer flying in and out of EWR *and* crossing the pond on VS can connect via BOS easily enough. Others may opt to give alternatives like BA, UA and/or JFK a try.

jerseyewr777 wrote:
After 30 years LH has dropped EWR-DUS. This one is rather confusing though. Eurowings only daily long haul route this summer was EWR-DUS along with this operating year round. EW has decided to keep JFK-DUS which is seasonal & less than daily. Based on their schedule before this pandemic you would think EWR was their most profitable route. The only long haul route dropped from the EW network so far has been EWR.


As is the case with VS, it certainly seems like European travelers prefer JFK to EWR. It really isn't surprising to see a European airline completely abandon EWR service to focus on JFK - even Norwegian did so.

That said, DUS is a relatively important market for transatlantic business travelers. UA has served DUS in the past, and a 767 might be perfect for the EWR-DUS route. My mom was a Chicago-based flight attendant for United Airlines and used to work the carrier's ORD-DUS flights. They do have a history in this market.

jerseyewr777 wrote:
Seems to be a trend here???


EWR seems to be a great niche for some carriers and a disappointing venture for others. Even hub carrier UA seemed to admit that more than a few important West Coast travelers adamantly prefer JFK to EWR, causing the airline to regret abandoning its JFK slots and subsequent focus on transcontinental service exclusively from EWR. Then again, another major transcontinental operator - AS - seems to be quite happy with EWR. While AS's JFK-SJC service got cut, they kept EWR-SJC and for that matter EWR-SAN. Even before the pandemic, AS never seemed to have much luck with spokes out of SAN/SJC: EWR was one of the rare cases where something seemed to work from both focus cities.

WN certainly didn't have any qualms leaving EWR, in spite of a lack of slots at LGA (clearly this airline's preferred gateway to the New York City market). However, other carriers like B6, F9 and NK seem to be doing quite well at EWR and probably wouldn't mind getting additional EWR gate access in the longer run.

In the international realm, AA and DL have certainly abandoned their own transatlantic operations from EWR in favor of JFK operations. Ostensibly those carriers both want to focus on JFK, in conjunction with their foreign partners, yet CX still seemed to do pretty well with its relatively new EWR service. Let alone EK, SQ and NZ. There just never seems to be a shortage of carriers willing to (re)try EWR!

jerseyewr777 wrote:
I'm going to guess EWR is going to lose quite a few more airlines to JFK after Covid-19 is all said & done :(


Yes I think we can expect significant cuts to secondary metropolitan area airports like BUR, BWI, EWR, FLL, IAD, MDW, MHT, OAK, ONT, PVD and SJC. Those without a legacy carrier hub tenant or WN presence, like CAK, FNT and PHF could be in huge trouble.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
catiii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:06 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.


Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


And yet DL was adding routes from EWR so...

And yes, LF means nothing. On a 150 seater, I sell 60 seats at an average $500 fare, or 150 seats at $100. Which means more?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:17 pm

cokepopper wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:

Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.



Again not factual. Yes there was a slot deal for “some” slots. Not all. Delta wasn’t planning on leaving EWR.


I think we all know when airlines significantly cut back on an airports operations what tends to happen next...
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:20 pm

FSDan wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:

Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


Note that catiii has been contributing to this forum for 10 years longer than you have... Maybe reconsider who knows much about air travel?

You started your post complaining about rumors and misinformation, and then immediately pivoted to spewing statements for which you likely have no proof. Can you please provide a link to the statement from DL where they discussed forcing SkyTeam partners to pull out of EWR?

What catiii means by saying "LF means nothing", is that a high load factor doesn't mean a flight is profitable. Obviously low load factors aren't going to help profitability, but high load factors are often used on here (like the way you used it in your post) as proof that a given flight is successful, which isn't necessarily the case.


So you think it is just a coincidence 3 times DL took over routes from their Skyteam partners and then cancelled the route following this? Think again.

Furthermore, the DL flights were not selling cheaply either because they were always equal to JFK. The only difference is the O&D for the EWR flights was higher compared to JFK so the JFK flights often ended up being cheaper when compared to EWR. So you are proposing DL cuts JFK - AMS and CDG next because LF means nothing?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:21 pm

catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:

Laughable and factually inaccurate. DL utilized the immunized JV to put EWR TATL flying on their own metal, with the exception of VS. DL doesn'y "believe Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only." DL believes in making the best network decisions to optimize revenue.

Also LF means nothing.


It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


And yet DL was adding routes from EWR so...

And yes, LF means nothing. On a 150 seater, I sell 60 seats at an average $500 fare, or 150 seats at $100. Which means more?


DL added regional routes from EWR to stick it to UA. It’s called competition.

Interesting you think DL was selling tickets with such a large gap as that because it’s simply not true.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:02 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Lots of rumors and miss information going around in this thread. To begin, DL believes Skyteam should be based at JFK and JFK only. DL within the past few years have forced AF, KLM, and VS to cut flights from EWR. Once DL took over some of the flights they had some of the best LF’s in the entire DL system. DL than cut these routes too in favor of JFK.

Moving forward, Eurowings will not be returning to EWR following this. I have reached out to bother Lufthansa and Eurowings which both told me it was cut due to an aircraft shortage (LH took aircraft away from EW). I do not think this cut was smart because not only do they have JV with UA but they also planned to increase the flights to EWR this summer. They recently made JFK a seasonal flight and with less frequencies than EWR. Airlines need to realize this is not a time for prestige but more for economics.


I disagree with you that DL wants only to be at JFK. DL did try to make EWR work to LHR, AMS and CDG. Because UA and Star are so dominant at EWR, it is very hard for DL and Skyteam to get US origin O&D. I can use both EWR and JFK (but much prefer JFK), usually I could always get Global Upgrades and the like =on the EWR-EU delta flights that I couldn’t get on the JFK flights. The EWR flights existed IMHO for EU origin pax (plus VS, AF, KL loyalists in EU) that needed to fly to EWR. I think DL and their partners realized that such a large percentage of pax either didn’t care btw EWR or JFK or preferred JFK, that closing EWR down just made financial sense. Remember VS/DL will use that prime LHR slot for another flight. Also, if I remember correctly, when EWR-AMS/CDG was cancelled the frequency just moved to JFK. So no really reduction (especially for business and tourists that can use both airports).
 
Pi7472000
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:14 pm

Not surprising as the New York area is the epicenter of COVID19 in the U.S. Will takes years if these airlines are even still around for EWR to get these routes back.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:33 am

EWR could be an effective Star Alliance fortress hub with just some JetBlue for some time. If LH wasn't a co-owner of its terminal at JFK, I could see them moving only to EWR, along with everyone else in the LH Group except for LX (which at JFK is at T4).
 
catiii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:50 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

It appears you don’t know much about air travel. There is a reason DL and UA were going to swap slots and DL was going to leave EWR entirely. DL has little to no interest in EWR.

Also, you mentioned how LF means nothing? So you believe an empty plane is making just as much money as a full one? Idiotic.


And yet DL was adding routes from EWR so...

And yes, LF means nothing. On a 150 seater, I sell 60 seats at an average $500 fare, or 150 seats at $100. Which means more?


DL added regional routes from EWR to stick it to UA. It’s called competition.

Interesting you think DL was selling tickets with such a large gap as that because it’s simply not true.


So which is it? You’ve just contradicted yourself. SkyTeam was consolidating at JFK or they were expanding EWR?

I don’t *think* what they’re selling their flights at. I know...

And those weren’t actually fares, but an example to school you on why load factor doesn’t matter because it “appears you don’t know much about air travel.”

Amateur hour.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:21 am

catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:

And yet DL was adding routes from EWR so...

And yes, LF means nothing. On a 150 seater, I sell 60 seats at an average $500 fare, or 150 seats at $100. Which means more?


DL added regional routes from EWR to stick it to UA. It’s called competition.

Interesting you think DL was selling tickets with such a large gap as that because it’s simply not true.


So which is it? You’ve just contradicted yourself. SkyTeam was consolidating at JFK or they were expanding EWR?

I don’t *think* what they’re selling their flights at. I know...

And those weren’t actually fares, but an example to school you on why load factor doesn’t matter because it “appears you don’t know much about air travel.”

Amateur hour.


1.) A few regional flights have nothing compared to 767s.

2.) I know what they sell their flights at and you disregarded my comment where I mentioned how they were sold at the same price as JFK but most likely bought in more cash because EWR was more of an O&D station.
 
Cedar
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:45 am

VS closing down EWR & LH dropping a flight is hardly the demise of EWR.
JFK has lost flights as well.

As for VS - although the station was closed during COVID-19, the actual reason was VS claiming it was loss making. I think this was in the works for a while, they wanted to focus on JFK as it is their US hub, thanks to DL having a hub there. So opportunity for connection traffic was large. EWR was all O&D, JFK was a mix.
DL certainly had a say in the matter as they have 3 seats on the board at VS & are part of all deciion making with regards to JV flights.
DL is heavily focused on JFK - their EWR operation only carries pax to their hubs or focus cities throughout the US.

LH has a huge star alliance interest in EWR - they are not going anywhere.
There is no trend here other than LH responding to COVID-19 and protecting their operations.

Cedar
 
727LOVER
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:49 am

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:21 am

Cedar wrote:
VS closing down EWR & LH dropping a flight is hardly the demise of EWR.
JFK has lost flights as well.

As for VS - although the station was closed during COVID-19, the actual reason was VS claiming it was loss making. I think this was in the works for a while, they wanted to focus on JFK as it is their US hub, thanks to DL having a hub there. So opportunity for connection traffic was large. EWR was all O&D, JFK was a mix.
DL certainly had a say in the matter as they have 3 seats on the board at VS & are part of all deciion making with regards to JV flights.
DL is heavily focused on JFK - their EWR operation only carries pax to their hubs or focus cities throughout the US.

LH has a huge star alliance interest in EWR - they are not going anywhere.
There is no trend here other than LH responding to COVID-19 and protecting their operations.

Cedar


I have no actual knowledge on this nor am I arguing with you but how could EWR be loss making for them? Their fares were equal to JFK and the LF’s were typically in the mid 80s but stretched into the 90s in the summer. If this isn’t profitable for them then I’m scared to see their margins on other routes.
 
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N62NA
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:29 am

ltbewr wrote:
The current times are causing very wild changes but economics are taking over.
I recall taking VS out of EWR when they only had the 1 747 ('Virgin Flyer'), operated out of a tiny part of Terminal C (the shell was built with A & B in the 1970's. In the mid-1980's EWR wanted to have service to London area. At first I recall there was scheduled charter flights to LGW (don't recall the airline) then PeopleExperess, also to LGW and to balance with the UK, at first, British Caledonia and when it merged with BA then VS got the opening.
It makes financial and practical sense to consolidate all VS operations at JFK where part owner DL has a major international flight presence.

I live about 15 miles north of EWR, and depending on the winds, under a main approach path. Around 5 to 7 PM, it would be plane after plane a few minutes apart. Now is maybe every 15 minutes, mainly FedEx and UPS.


That charter flight EWR-LGW was operated by British Airtours on a 707.
 
Cedar
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:47 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Cedar wrote:
VS closing down EWR & LH dropping a flight is hardly the demise of EWR.
JFK has lost flights as well.

As for VS - although the station was closed during COVID-19, the actual reason was VS claiming it was loss making. I think this was in the works for a while, they wanted to focus on JFK as it is their US hub, thanks to DL having a hub there. So opportunity for connection traffic was large. EWR was all O&D, JFK was a mix.
DL certainly had a say in the matter as they have 3 seats on the board at VS & are part of all deciion making with regards to JV flights.
DL is heavily focused on JFK - their EWR operation only carries pax to their hubs or focus cities throughout the US.

LH has a huge star alliance interest in EWR - they are not going anywhere.
There is no trend here other than LH responding to COVID-19 and protecting their operations.

Cedar


I have no actual knowledge on this nor am I arguing with you but how could EWR be loss making for them? Their fares were equal to JFK and the LF’s were typically in the mid 80s but stretched into the 90s in the summer. If this isn’t profitable for them then I’m scared to see their margins on other routes.


You are exactly right & hit the nail on the head. I'm simply stating what VS claimed. This is why I believe it was in the works for a while because they wanted to focus purely on JFK hub (not that it was loss making). Covid-19 was their opportuity to shut it down and just use their one NY area airport.
In fact, your LF's are accurate & they were closer to the 90 or above mark though most of the year except Q1.
Not only were their fares equal to JFK, but they were pretty equal to those of BA, or not far off.

Cedar
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:01 am

Cedar wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Cedar wrote:
VS closing down EWR & LH dropping a flight is hardly the demise of EWR.
JFK has lost flights as well.

As for VS - although the station was closed during COVID-19, the actual reason was VS claiming it was loss making. I think this was in the works for a while, they wanted to focus on JFK as it is their US hub, thanks to DL having a hub there. So opportunity for connection traffic was large. EWR was all O&D, JFK was a mix.
DL certainly had a say in the matter as they have 3 seats on the board at VS & are part of all deciion making with regards to JV flights.
DL is heavily focused on JFK - their EWR operation only carries pax to their hubs or focus cities throughout the US.

LH has a huge star alliance interest in EWR - they are not going anywhere.
There is no trend here other than LH responding to COVID-19 and protecting their operations.

Cedar


I have no actual knowledge on this nor am I arguing with you but how could EWR be loss making for them? Their fares were equal to JFK and the LF’s were typically in the mid 80s but stretched into the 90s in the summer. If this isn’t profitable for them then I’m scared to see their margins on other routes.


You are exactly right & hit the nail on the head. I'm simply stating what VS claimed. This is why I believe it was in the works for a while because they wanted to focus purely on JFK hub (not that it was loss making). Covid-19 was their opportuity to shut it down and just use their one NY area airport.
In fact, your LF's are accurate & they were closer to the 90 or above mark though most of the year except Q1.
Not only were their fares equal to JFK, but they were pretty equal to those of BA, or not far off.

Cedar


Pretty embarrassing in complete honesty. If they make it through this they could return in the future profitably but in the meantime I’m a little nervous for them.
 
FSDan
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:32 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
FSDan wrote:
You started your post complaining about rumors and misinformation, and then immediately pivoted to spewing statements for which you likely have no proof. Can you please provide a link to the statement from DL where they discussed forcing SkyTeam partners to pull out of EWR?

What catiii means by saying "LF means nothing", is that a high load factor doesn't mean a flight is profitable. Obviously low load factors aren't going to help profitability, but high load factors are often used on here (like the way you used it in your post) as proof that a given flight is successful, which isn't necessarily the case.


So you think it is just a coincidence 3 times DL took over routes from their Skyteam partners and then cancelled the route following this? Think again.


1) DL replaced AF on EWR-CDG, and several years later ended up cutting it. 2) DL replaced one of two daily VS EWR-LHR frequencies, and ended up cutting it while VS kept the other frequency going for years. 3) ? - not sure what the #3 you're thinking of is... Surely you're not referring to when KL served EWR in the mid 2000s before DL and NW had even merged...

Either way, no, that doesn't sound like a conspiracy against EWR to me, and it's not even close to proof that DL was "forcing" their partners to JFK. If you have more substantial proof than just your own opinion on the matter, I'm willing to listen.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Furthermore, the DL flights were not selling cheaply either because they were always equal to JFK. The only difference is the O&D for the EWR flights was higher compared to JFK so the JFK flights often ended up being cheaper when compared to EWR. So you are proposing DL cuts JFK - AMS and CDG next because LF means nothing?


Do you have some fare data you can post to back that up? Don't tell me you just compared Y class fares out of the two airports on random dates on Google Flights or something... because that would in no way indicate overall route performance across all dates and fare classes.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
FSDan
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:36 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
DL added regional routes from EWR to stick it to UA. It’s called competition.


More likely, they added RDU-EWR and BOS-EWR to strengthen their offering to corporate clients in the Research Triangle and Boston areas, where DL has a much bigger presence. It's very possible DL has corporate contracts with pharma/biotech companies near RDU and BOS who travel a lot to Northern Jersey.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
catiii
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:05 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

DL added regional routes from EWR to stick it to UA. It’s called competition.

Interesting you think DL was selling tickets with such a large gap as that because it’s simply not true.


So which is it? You’ve just contradicted yourself.

I don’t *think* what they’re selling their flights at. I know...

And those weren’t actually fares, but an example to school you on why load factor doesn’t matter because it “appears you don’t know much about air travel.”

Amateur hour.


1.) A few regional flights have nothing compared to 767s.

2.) I know what they sell their flights at and you disregarded my comment where I mentioned how they were sold at the same price as JFK but most likely bought in more cash because EWR was more of an O&D station.


Growth is growth. Again which is it? SkyTeam was consolidating at JFK or they were expanding EWR? You said they were consolidating all the flying at JFK. We’ve all shown you how you’re wrong.

“Bought in more cash”? What does the form or payment have to to with anything?

And it still doesn’t change the fact that you had no understanding of LF, and are now trying to obfuscate with some obscure comments about pricing and transactions that are totally irrelevant to the initial comments you made.
 
catiii
Posts: 3461
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Re: EWR feeling the effects of Covid-19

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:07 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I have no actual knowledge on this nor am I arguing with you but how could EWR be loss making for them? Their fares were equal to JFK and the LF’s were typically in the mid 80s but stretched into the 90s in the summer. If this isn’t profitable for them then I’m scared to see their margins on other routes.


Again, a contradiction. Which is it? You know all
about this as you’ve said, or the above where you have no actual knowledge?

Let me guess, you’re looking at fares on their website and think you’re an armchair RM huh?

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