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miaami
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New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:51 pm

Interesting video about the start up of New York Air and the new competition to Eastern Air Lines New York Shuttle back in the 1980's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KWgVHLWSqU
 
miaami
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:00 pm

Interesting too is that Lorenzo would later run both airlines.
 
argentinevol98
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:03 pm

The New York Air/TIA management guys come across as rather slimy imo. Whole thing also seems ironic given Lorenzo's eventual move to Eastern (and the total disaster that ended up turning out to be).

Thanks for posting the video btw! Interesting stuff.
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Cointrin330
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:47 pm

I remember flying New York Air a few times, mainly to BOS but occasionally to DC, as a pre-teen. On morning flights, you'd get a paper bag with a bagel and cream cheese. There was a lot of controversy I sort of vaguely remember, when they launched their operation and were I think the first serious challenger to the Eastern Air Shuttle, as it was known back then.
 
cs03
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:13 pm

New York Air started to grow in the NYC area in the mid-1980s, and one new route was EWR/MSY. We were all served a light meal and they served free bottles of Becks Beer. Airfare was quite low as well. EWR/MSY was served 4 times daily by NY, and 1 daily by DL (1985).
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:19 pm

Oh but the pilots HATED NYAir, picketed with "Runaway Shop" or something like that. Took some TI/CO DC-9s and set up operations in a very pro-labor market. Having said that I heard that NYA was a nice outfit, to fly ON.
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Italianflyer
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:05 am

Took a few pre teen trips to NYC on them on the early 80s and was impressed. I noticed how young everyone was and seemed to hire "true believer" types who saw their roles as industry game changers.

That being said I think EA was always in Lorenzo's crosshairs. Eastern was a juicy plum for the picking: big dog in traditional east coast business markets... respectable player in emerging sunbelt business centers like ATL, CLT & MIA. Huge revenue premium hampered by bloated management structure and toxic labor relations (which ironically he torched years later) .
 
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dutchflyboi
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:33 am

I have good memories working for NYA. In the mornings we did serve the Nosh bags with bagels and cream cheese, in the afternoon, the same bags with French bread and cheese. Hard work, but good memories
 
F27500
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:52 pm

New York Air seemed to lose its way when they started expanding too much (usual story) and deviating from their roots. Suddenly they were flying alot of routes that totally bypassed NYC .. and then that idiotic "hub" they tried in RDU.
 
seat1a
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:04 pm

Love the tail logo. Let's see a revival of business routes out of LGA!
 
Cointrin330
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:31 pm

F27500 wrote:
New York Air seemed to lose its way when they started expanding too much (usual story) and deviating from their roots. Suddenly they were flying alot of routes that totally bypassed NYC .. and then that idiotic "hub" they tried in RDU.


That strategy was the playbook of the industry's early days post-Deregulation. Frontier, PeoplExpress, and others attempted much of the same and in each instance, it all ended up failing.
 
SFOThinker
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:14 pm

I used to fly BOS LGA every week and loved NY Air when it started up. The bagels weren't that good but they beat Eastern. Enterprise was a terrific show on PBS, too.
 
BUFJACK10
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:49 pm

F27500 wrote:
New York Air seemed to lose its way when they started expanding too much (usual story) and deviating from their roots. Suddenly they were flying alot of routes that totally bypassed NYC .. and then that idiotic "hub" they tried in RDU.

I think a big part of this was the Air Traffic Controllers strike. If what I remember correctly was that ops at LaGuardia we’re severely hampered and they needed to redeploy assets. I believe they tried IAD as well.
AA AK AL AQ AS B6 CO DL EA FL F9 HP KN NY MO NW PA PE PI RC QX TW UA UR US WN AF AN AO CS IB OA TR VS
A300 A319 A320 BAE146 BAC111 DC8 DC9 DC10 MD80 707 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 L10 F27 F28 F100 ERJ CRJ SE-210 SSC B1900 ATR42 ATR72 DH8 E120 SWM
 
sspontak
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:32 am

I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?
 
mga707
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:13 am

I remember watching that 'Enterprise' episode on PBS when it first aired in late '81.
 
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dutchflyboi
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:10 am

sspontak wrote:
I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?

NYA had a large hub at IAD. towards the summer of 1986 it was larger than LGA/EWR. The hub lasted well into the merger with Continental in 1987, who closed the hub and established CLE as a hub and downsized IAD.
 
departedflights
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:47 pm

dutchflyboi wrote:
I have good memories working for NYA. In the mornings we did serve the Nosh bags with bagels and cream cheese, in the afternoon, the same bags with French bread and cheese. Hard work, but good memories


Image


sspontak wrote:
I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?


Here is a map of New York Air's Dulles routes just before the merger with Continental:

Image

Other than the Dulles hub routes, there were just a handful of other routes by that time:

Newark to Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans, Orlando, Boston and Washington National.

White Plains to Washington National.

Boston to New York Kennedy.
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N717TW
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:37 pm

the bones continue today (although almost untouched through 2008) as the Delta Shuttle right down to the day old bagels on the morning flights. After the market crash in '08 the shuttle got downgraded to either regular Delta aircraft and Delta Connection for nearly all flights and honestly it just isn't the same.
 
iadbudd
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:41 pm

I loved the New York air call sign. "Apple"
 
iadbudd
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:43 pm

dutchflyboi wrote:
sspontak wrote:
I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?

NYA had a large hub at IAD. towards the summer of 1986 it was larger than LGA/EWR. The hub lasted well into the merger with Continental in 1987, who closed the hub and established CLE as a hub and downsized IAD.


That IAD hub operated out of the old T gates. Main terminal extension to the west.
 
iadbudd
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:45 pm

departedflights wrote:
dutchflyboi wrote:
I have good memories working for NYA. In the mornings we did serve the Nosh bags with bagels and cream cheese, in the afternoon, the same bags with French bread and cheese. Hard work, but good memories


Image


sspontak wrote:
I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?


Here is a map of New York Air's Dulles routes just before the merger with Continental:

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49780734931_0e4daafd43.jpg[

Newark to Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans, Orlando, Boston and Washington National.

Was that shuttle to shuttle mini bus service popular? That was a creative marketing campaign.

White Plains to Washington National.

Boston to New York Kennedy.
 
global2
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:36 pm

I flew on New York Air between NY/NJ and BOS in the 80s when I was in college. I liked them, and their airplanes always seemed clean. I liked Piedmont too. PeoplExpress and Eastern, not so much. NY Air had a catchy jingle too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTHZZhEDtME
 
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CV990A
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:22 pm

Only flew them once - on the ISP-IAD flight as a UM coming home from visiting my grandparents. I remember boarding the DC-9 in ISP via airstairs, and vaguely recall sitting in row 1 which was in a club configuration facing backwards towards row 2. Is that right? I've never been able to find a NYA seatmap. I also got a New York Air pin, which my folks still have.
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iadbudd
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:33 am

Was that shuttle to shuttle mini bus service popular that was in that addvertisement? Pretty clever campaign to take people over to the Eastern shuttle
 
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dutchflyboi
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:19 am

CV990A wrote:
Only flew them once - on the ISP-IAD flight as a UM coming home from visiting my grandparents. I remember boarding the DC-9 in ISP via airstairs, and vaguely recall sitting in row 1 which was in a club configuration facing backwards towards row 2. Is that right? I've never been able to find a NYA seatmap. I also got a New York Air pin, which my folks still have.

NYA never had club seating. CO had it on some of their MD80s, last 2 rows AC left, just behind the aft galley.
 
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Blimpie
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:40 am

If I am not mistaken, didn't Lorenzo ended up head of both airlines?

EDIT: As my grandkid would says, "Ninja'd"
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
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dutchflyboi
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:00 am

Blimpie wrote:
If I am not mistaken, didn't Lorenzo ended up head of both airlines?

EDIT: As my grandkid would says, "Ninja'd"


That is correct: Continental, New York Air, Peoplexpress, Frontier ( this during the merger of 1987) and later Eastern.
Intersting youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_nTRYyShOE
 
Cointrin330
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:00 pm

N717TW wrote:
the bones continue today (although almost untouched through 2008) as the Delta Shuttle right down to the day old bagels on the morning flights. After the market crash in '08 the shuttle got downgraded to either regular Delta aircraft and Delta Connection for nearly all flights and honestly it just isn't the same.


Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:05 pm

Blimpie wrote:
If I am not mistaken, didn't Lorenzo ended up head of both airlines?

EDIT: As my grandkid would says, "Ninja'd"


Continental absorbed PeoplExpress, Frontier, and New York Air in 1986/87 and merged with Eastern. Eastern and Continental kept their separate brands for a time. Continental's OnePass frequent flyer program name was actually I think inherited from Eastern in name. In either case, they shared a platform until Eastern's demise in 1991. Planes and assets shifted around, with EA operating a handful of CO DC10s and CO operated some EA A300s.

Fleet wise, Continental's liveries were a mess in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It had vestiges of Frontier, PE, and NYA although the New York Air jets seemed to have been repainted into the meatball logo quickly. The A300s inherited from Eastern's collapse operated at CO well into the 1990s (to around 1994/5 I think). A lot of CO 737-100s, MD80s, and 737-300s came from PE, NYA, and Frontier.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:00 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Blimpie wrote:
If I am not mistaken, didn't Lorenzo ended up head of both airlines?

EDIT: As my grandkid would says, "Ninja'd"


Continental absorbed PeoplExpress, Frontier, and New York Air in 1986/87 and merged with Eastern. Eastern and Continental kept their separate brands for a time. Continental's OnePass frequent flyer program name was actually I think inherited from Eastern in name. In either case, they shared a platform until Eastern's demise in 1991. Planes and assets shifted around, with EA operating a handful of CO DC10s and CO operated some EA A300s.

Fleet wise, Continental's liveries were a mess in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It had vestiges of Frontier, PE, and NYA although the New York Air jets seemed to have been repainted into the meatball logo quickly. The A300s inherited from Eastern's collapse operated at CO well into the 1990s (to around 1994/5 I think). A lot of CO 737-100s, MD80s, and 737-300s came from PE, NYA, and Frontier.
Continental and Eastern never merged... Texas Air Corp owned them both. They took assets from heavily unionized Eastern and sent them to either non union Continental or new holding companies with basically no return to Eastern. Examples: They took Easterns very large CRS called SystemONE and moved it to a stand alone agency and Eastern needed to start paying to use its own system as a result. CO got Eastern aircraft for promisary notes or less valuable aircraft in return (EA got DC9s (including a few ex-NYAir ones) in return for 727s and A300s)... The shuttle was sold to someone and the funds went to Texas Air and not Eastern... And so on.

Texas Air actually held Continental and Frontier under one subsidiary, Eastern under another and SystemONE under a third...

Eastern, Continental, Texas Air and Lorenzo's shenanigans led to a whole lot of corporate law changes and rulings. There are several books on the whole thing.

If you want a slightly more compressed version on video from before EA actually died there is this

https://youtu.be/MSSPAM3vauw

https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0



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Last edited by northstardc4m on Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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afcjets
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:09 pm

dutchflyboi wrote:
CV990A wrote:
Only flew them once - on the ISP-IAD flight as a UM coming home from visiting my grandparents. I remember boarding the DC-9 in ISP via airstairs, and vaguely recall sitting in row 1 which was in a club configuration facing backwards towards row 2. Is that right? I've never been able to find a NYA seatmap. I also got a New York Air pin, which my folks still have.

NYA never had club seating. CO had it on some of their MD80s, last 2 rows AC left, just behind the aft galley.


USAir had that exact configuration on their DC9s before merging with Piedmont in 1989, but AFAIK they didn't fly that route non-stop. Did you connect or fly another time as a UM?
 
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smithbs
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:20 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Planes and assets shifted around


Wasn't that part of a tactic by Lorenzo to bypass Eastern unions?
 
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:31 pm

smithbs wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Planes and assets shifted around


Wasn't that part of a tactic by Lorenzo to bypass Eastern unions?


Exactly.
 
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CV990A
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:18 pm

afcjets wrote:
USAir had that exact configuration on their DC9s before merging with Piedmont in 1989, but AFAIK they didn't fly that route non-stop. Did you connect or fly another time as a UM?


I did fly ISP-DCA non-stop as a UM several years later with USAir - but it was on a Dash 8.

I could be mis-remembering the seating configuration as I was only 5 or 6 at the time. But it was on New York Air - that big red DC-9 certainly stood out to me, and my folks still have the button with the airline's logo I got on the flight.
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Jo8338
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:45 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Blimpie wrote:
If I am not mistaken, didn't Lorenzo ended up head of both airlines?

EDIT: As my grandkid would says, "Ninja'd"


Continental absorbed PeoplExpress, Frontier, and New York Air in 1986/87 and merged with Eastern. Eastern and Continental kept their separate brands for a time. Continental's OnePass frequent flyer program name was actually I think inherited from Eastern in name. In either case, they shared a platform until Eastern's demise in 1991. Planes and assets shifted around, with EA operating a handful of CO DC10s and CO operated some EA A300s.

Fleet wise, Continental's liveries were a mess in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It had vestiges of Frontier, PE, and NYA although the New York Air jets seemed to have been repainted into the meatball logo quickly. The A300s inherited from Eastern's collapse operated at CO well into the 1990s (to around 1994/5 I think). A lot of CO 737-100s, MD80s, and 737-300s came from PE, NYA, and Frontier.


The bones and the actually account numbers from Eastern OnePass still live today as United. I still have my original card from 1986 and it’s my United Milage number today.
 
afcjets
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:10 pm

Jo8338 wrote:
The bones and the actually account numbers from Eastern OnePass still live today as United. I still have my original card from 1986 and it’s my United Milage number today.


I never think of United when I think of Eastern, except I think their Polaris fabric, carpet, etc. and new exterior paint is similar to what Eastern had or I would imagine them to have today. I think more of Eastern is at American today, even if almost none of it is not via direct acquisition. MIA, CLT, PHL, NYC hubs, NE Shuttle. Both were also big in SJU at one time and a large presence in the Caribbean and Latin America (because of their MIA hubs). The only Admirals Club I know of that was a former Ionosphere Lounge is the one on Concourse B at CLT.
 
COEWRMSY
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:54 pm

We (my family) were regulars on the EWR-MSY route in the 1980s since we had relatives split between NJ and south Louisiana. I still have some of the "Flying Nosh" bags (no bagels, fortunately) and other memorabilia.

That red livery really stood out. Even with the PE brown/purple, CO red/gold, US red/burgundy, TW red/white - in other words, lots of bold 70s/80s colors - somehow those DC9s really grabbed your attention.
 
Ryanair01
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:07 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
N717TW wrote:
the bones continue today (although almost untouched through 2008) as the Delta Shuttle right down to the day old bagels on the morning flights. After the market crash in '08 the shuttle got downgraded to either regular Delta aircraft and Delta Connection for nearly all flights and honestly it just isn't the same.


Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.
 
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dutchflyboi
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:13 pm

Ryanair01 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
N717TW wrote:
the bones continue today (although almost untouched through 2008) as the Delta Shuttle right down to the day old bagels on the morning flights. After the market crash in '08 the shuttle got downgraded to either regular Delta aircraft and Delta Connection for nearly all flights and honestly it just isn't the same.


Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


The service was moved from LGA to EWR, where CO operated the DCA-EWR-BOS shuttle. Over the years it was changed, Now with UA, it is back as an almost hourly service again.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:15 pm

Ryanair01 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
N717TW wrote:
the bones continue today (although almost untouched through 2008) as the Delta Shuttle right down to the day old bagels on the morning flights. After the market crash in '08 the shuttle got downgraded to either regular Delta aircraft and Delta Connection for nearly all flights and honestly it just isn't the same.


Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


Indeed, that was the sequence of events that led to New York Air's LGA-BOS and LGA-DCA operation ultimately being the DL Shuttle operation, through the Pan Am transactions (PA buying NYA's shuttle operation and then DL buying the Pan Am Shuttle). Someone mentioned the NYA Shuttle moving to Newark to operate hourly services to both DCA and BOS. That is incorrect. Continental simply set up a high frequency operation at EWR to both cities. It was never quite a shuttle. Pre COVID19, UA had planned to reintroduce a DCA shuttle from EWR. Unclear where that will proceed. The Eastern Air Shuttle ended up being operated for a time by Donald Trump, who, like the majority of his business ventures, not to mention the political ones, failed. The Eastern Air Shuttle became the Trump Shuttle, which was then marketed as the USAir Shuttle until USAirways bought it completely and rebranded it the USAirways Shuttle. Today, it is the American Shuttle. Ooof.
 
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dutchflyboi
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:00 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


Indeed, that was the sequence of events that led to New York Air's LGA-BOS and LGA-DCA operation ultimately being the DL Shuttle operation, through the Pan Am transactions (PA buying NYA's shuttle operation and then DL buying the Pan Am Shuttle). Someone mentioned the NYA Shuttle moving to Newark to operate hourly services to both DCA and BOS. That is incorrect. Continental simply set up a high frequency operation at EWR to both cities. It was never quite a shuttle. Pre COVID19, UA had planned to reintroduce a DCA shuttle from EWR. Unclear where that will proceed. The Eastern Air Shuttle ended up being operated for a time by Donald Trump, who, like the majority of his business ventures, not to mention the political ones, failed. The Eastern Air Shuttle became the Trump Shuttle, which was then marketed as the USAir Shuttle until USAirways bought it completely and rebranded it the USAirways Shuttle. Today, it is the American Shuttle. Ooof.

NYA did move the shuttle service to EWR. CO operated the hourly service. You can see it in the time table from CO 1987 on departed flights: http://www.departedflights.com/CO020187p25.html and http://www.departedflights.com/CO020187p17.html
And I should know, I worked the flights, we kept the same Nosh Bags with bagels in the AM and French bread and cheese in the PM.
 
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:39 am

Ryanair01 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
N717TW wrote:
the bones continue today (although almost untouched through 2008) as the Delta Shuttle right down to the day old bagels on the morning flights. After the market crash in '08 the shuttle got downgraded to either regular Delta aircraft and Delta Connection for nearly all flights and honestly it just isn't the same.


Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:42 am

questions wrote:

I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


My understanding is that there were 2 shuttles. The New York Air shuttle owned by TIA (Lorenzo's company) and the Eastern shuttle. Since TIA acquired Eastern they had to sell the NYA shuttle to Pan Am. Thus creating the Pan Am shuttle.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:05 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
questions wrote:

I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


My understanding is that there were 2 shuttles. The New York Air shuttle owned by TIA (Lorenzo's company) and the Eastern shuttle. Since TIA acquired Eastern they had to sell the NYA shuttle to Pan Am. Thus creating the Pan Am shuttle.


Thank you for clarifying!
 
Imperialhill
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:03 am

For the record, CO and EA never shared/swapped each other's equipment....not by a long shot!! CO outright STOLE EA A300s, 722s, and had begun transferring EA 752s to CO for promissory notes of about 5% of their value when EA shut down. IFIK, only 2 752 were actually reregged to CO . In other words, anything of any value at EAL, Lorenzo and Bakes just sent it to CO without even paying for it. As for the 3 DC10s EA acquired, these came from AZ and SN, not CO. They were purchased for the MIALGW that CO stole from us, used instead MIALAXMIA MIALIMMIA MIAEZEMIA. Why CO did not take these is beyond me! BTW, that is also what happened to our ingenious MCI hub, it made money just like the shuttle so away it went just to bury us in more debt in preparation for ultimate shut down!
DL FANBOY EXTRAORDINAIRE LAX based ex f/a with NA, followed by EAL, then ML
 
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Jamake1
Posts: 1006
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:07 am

Imperialhill wrote:
For the record, CO and EA never shared/swapped each other's equipment....not by a long shot!! CO outright STOLE EA A300s, 722s, and had begun transferring EA 752s to CO for promissory notes of about 5% of their value when EA shut down.


This is how I remember it as well. Eastern’s System One GDS was pillaged by Texas Air Corp and then Lorenzo and his band of thieves charged Eastern to utilize its own stolen system. Eastern was also saddled with management fees for the privilege of being “managed” by Texas Air Corp. It’s important to keep history of Eastern’s demise accurate.
Come fly the sun.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1000
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:28 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
questions wrote:

I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


My understanding is that there were 2 shuttles. The New York Air shuttle owned by TIA (Lorenzo's company) and the Eastern shuttle. Since TIA acquired Eastern they had to sell the NYA shuttle to Pan Am. Thus creating the Pan Am shuttle.


My question is on the employee's side. Eastern Shuttle was sold outright (planes, routes, AND employees) to Trump, and ended up as part of American, eventually. There was an article on a crewmember (FA, AFAIR) who was hired by Eastern, and went to work for all owners of Eastern Shuttle, keeping seniority in the meantime ("one interview, four airlines, same work" or something like that was mentioned).

What about NYA shuttle employees? I know NYA was created with TXI's repainted planes, and non-union workforce (TXI was a union shop), which violated TXI's pilots (and other crews' too?) scope clause. This created resentment, and NYA was called "scab outfit" and "union-busters" by organized labour, AFAIK.
Did the NYA shuttle employees end up at Pan Am, and later Delta? I cannot imagine them being treated too well there... If yes, what was the seniority list integration process like?
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Cody
Posts: 2274
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:43 am

I don't think New York Air people ended up at Pan Am a 'la Trump Shuttle, US Airways.

As far as I know Pan Am folks were only able to keep partial seniority with United and Delta in the Pacific/Atlantic asset acquisitions.

What I want to know is did Pan Am Shuttle employees go to Delta when Delta took the Shuttle.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:44 am

questions wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


No, this is covered further down in the thread. The Eastern Air Shuttle was the original, and single high frequency operation from NYC (LGA) to Boston and Washington DC. New York Air was launched in the early 1980s which was a subsidiary of Frank Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp, (watch the video at the top of the thread) to compete with EA and intended to offer better service and lower fares. Frank Lorenzo acquired Eastern Airlines in 1986 and was forced to sell the NY Air shuttle operation. It was sold to Pan Am, in 1986 for $61 million. From that point on, Pan Am and Eastern operated competing shuttle operations until 1988, when Eastern sold the slots and planes operating its Shuttle to Donald Trump. Trump failed at operating the shuttle and lost money from the get go, and the rights to operate the shuttle and marketing name were transferred to USAir, which licensed the operation for a time, until USAir bought it out completely. The USAir Shuttle became the USAirways Shuttle when USAir rebranded in 1996, and then became the American Airlines Shuttle when AA and US merged in 2013. The Pan Am Shuttle was sold to Delta in 1991 and has operated as the Delta Shuttle since.

New York Air folded into Continental Airlines. The NY to DC/BOS shuttle service shifted to EWR as CO grew their hub at EWR starting in 1987.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:45 am

dutchflyboi wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:

Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


Indeed, that was the sequence of events that led to New York Air's LGA-BOS and LGA-DCA operation ultimately being the DL Shuttle operation, through the Pan Am transactions (PA buying NYA's shuttle operation and then DL buying the Pan Am Shuttle). Someone mentioned the NYA Shuttle moving to Newark to operate hourly services to both DCA and BOS. That is incorrect. Continental simply set up a high frequency operation at EWR to both cities. It was never quite a shuttle. Pre COVID19, UA had planned to reintroduce a DCA shuttle from EWR. Unclear where that will proceed. The Eastern Air Shuttle ended up being operated for a time by Donald Trump, who, like the majority of his business ventures, not to mention the political ones, failed. The Eastern Air Shuttle became the Trump Shuttle, which was then marketed as the USAir Shuttle until USAirways bought it completely and rebranded it the USAirways Shuttle. Today, it is the American Shuttle. Ooof.

NYA did move the shuttle service to EWR. CO operated the hourly service. You can see it in the time table from CO 1987 on departed flights: http://www.departedflights.com/CO020187p25.html and http://www.departedflights.com/CO020187p17.html
And I should know, I worked the flights, we kept the same Nosh Bags with bagels in the AM and French bread and cheese in the PM.


The service and the assets (planes) were shifted to EWR, yes, as NYA was folded into CO, and CO launched an hourly service from EWR but the actual slots at LGA didn't move with NYA. Those were part of the sale to Pan Am in 1986 and part of the divestiture requirement once Frank Lorenzo acquired Eastern.

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