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sspontak
Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:59 pm

departedflights wrote:
dutchflyboi wrote:
I have good memories working for NYA. In the mornings we did serve the Nosh bags with bagels and cream cheese, in the afternoon, the same bags with French bread and cheese. Hard work, but good memories


Image


sspontak wrote:
I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?


Here is a map of New York Air's Dulles routes just before the merger with Continental:

Image

Other than the Dulles hub routes, there were just a handful of other routes by that time:

Newark to Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans, Orlando, Boston and Washington National.

White Plains to Washington National.

Boston to New York Kennedy.


Great ad campaign against the Eastern Shuttle. Also a very good route map. I see the NYAir routes I flew out of ISP, IAD and CLE. Thanks for posting. It brings back memories.
 
sspontak
Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:02 pm

sspontak wrote:
departedflights wrote:
dutchflyboi wrote:
I have good memories working for NYA. In the mornings we did serve the Nosh bags with bagels and cream cheese, in the afternoon, the same bags with French bread and cheese. Hard work, but good memories


Image


sspontak wrote:
I flew New York Air out of ISP to IAD and also CLE to IAD. Did NY Air also hub out of Washington Dulles IAD?


Here is a map of New York Air's Dulles routes just before the merger with Continental:

Image

Other than the Dulles hub routes, there were just a handful of other routes by that time:

Newark to Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans, Orlando, Boston and Washington National.

White Plains to Washington National.

Boston to New York Kennedy.


Great ad campaign against the Eastern Shuttle. Also a very good route map. I see the NYAir routes I flew out of ISP, IAD and CLE. Thanks for posting. It brings back memories.


I remember the gate area in IAD was set up like an office environment with comfortable chairs, tables and reading lamps.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1881
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:36 am

In the fall of 1981, New York Air added LGA-DTW. At the time, AA had almost hourly service on this route, with departures on the hour from DTW, and on the half hour from LGA. It was also among AA's most profitable routes.

AA immediately matched New York Air's fares, and launched an aggressive advertising campaign in Detroit. Within 6 months, New York Air was forced to switch from DTW-LGA to DTW-EWR.

At DTW, New York Air used Braniff's old ticket counter in the L C Smith terminal, and their flights departed from an ex-TWA gate on the C concourse that conveniently already had a dark red podium backdrop.
 
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N717TW
Posts: 555
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 12:55 pm

Jo8338 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Blimpie wrote:
If I am not mistaken, didn't Lorenzo ended up head of both airlines?

EDIT: As my grandkid would says, "Ninja'd"


Continental absorbed PeoplExpress, Frontier, and New York Air in 1986/87 and merged with Eastern. Eastern and Continental kept their separate brands for a time. Continental's OnePass frequent flyer program name was actually I think inherited from Eastern in name. In either case, they shared a platform until Eastern's demise in 1991. Planes and assets shifted around, with EA operating a handful of CO DC10s and CO operated some EA A300s.

Fleet wise, Continental's liveries were a mess in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It had vestiges of Frontier, PE, and NYA although the New York Air jets seemed to have been repainted into the meatball logo quickly. The A300s inherited from Eastern's collapse operated at CO well into the 1990s (to around 1994/5 I think). A lot of CO 737-100s, MD80s, and 737-300s came from PE, NYA, and Frontier.


The bones and the actually account numbers from Eastern OnePass still live today as United. I still have my original card from 1986 and it’s my United Milage number today.


That's cool. My. DL SkyMiles number is my old Pan Am WorldPass number with 400 added to the start... I opened the account as a kid flying the PA shuttle to visit family in 1988.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 459
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 1:04 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
In the fall of 1981, New York Air added LGA-DTW. At the time, AA had almost hourly service on this route, with departures on the hour from DTW, and on the half hour from LGA. It was also among AA's most profitable routes.

AA immediately matched New York Air's fares, and launched an aggressive advertising campaign in Detroit. Within 6 months, New York Air was forced to switch from DTW-LGA to DTW-EWR.

At DTW, New York Air used Braniff's old ticket counter in the L C Smith terminal, and their flights departed from an ex-TWA gate on the C concourse that conveniently already had a dark red podium backdrop.



AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.
 
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N717TW
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 1:18 pm

questions wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Not exactly. The Delta Shuttle was the successor to the Pan Am Shuttle (which was branded The Corporate Jet). Delta bought it and the assets that came with it, including the 727-200 Shuttle fleet, the gates at the Marine Air Terminal, which was used for the Delta Shuttle operation (BOS, LGA, and ORD) until Delta moved everything under one roof at LGA and into Terminals C and D. Pan Am though never operated a shuttle to ORD from LGA. DL added that much, much later, post 2008.


Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


There have been many "shuttles" between BOS-NY-DC since the 1950s. What we think of as the "Shuttle" is the hourly, no reservation service between Boston Logan- NY LaGuardia and National Airport. That was invented by EA. It was as close to the 42nd street Shuttle in NYC as you could get in aviation. You showed up and got on the plane. Tickets were literally taken on the plane by the flight attendants. If the plane was full there was a back up fleet (originally Viscounts, I think) to fly extra flights.

Post deregulation, Frank Lorenzo grabbed access to the three airports (which is shocking now, but had extra capacity in the early 80s) and created a rival shuttle under New York Air. It turned the shuttle from "bus" service into a business class service with the bagels, etc. During the early. and mid-80s they battled on service, reliability and not on price..

When Texas Air bought eastern (having owned NY Air/Continental/etc.) it agreed to sell the "Shuttle" operation to Pan Am Corp. Pan Am set up the Shuttle as a separate Company, called "Pan Am Shuttle, Inc." which was then sold in the Pan Am bankruptcy to Delta and became "Delta Shuttle, Inc." also a septette company owned by Delta. Delta continued to operate the Shuttle as a separate "airline within the airline" with its own dedicated (all Y with 36" pitch) fleet (727s, then 737s then MD-88s), separate terminal at LGA and operating processes through 2008. During the 90s, DL added shuttle like service between DC and Boston using the shuttle fleet and in the '00s added Chicago-LGA. While Delta Shuttle, Inc. may still exist on paper, it doesn't exist as an airline operating company anymore. All flights are sold and managed by Delta Air Lines, Inc. Most flights (up to Covid) were actually operated by Republic d/b/a "Delta Shuttle"

As for EA. When it entered bankruptcy, Lorenzo organized quickly to sell the Shuttle...for a huge sum...to Trump who rebranded it as Trump Shuttle. The airline went bankrupt with the creditors (Citibank being the largest) taking control and renaming the airline Shuttle, Inc. They cut a deal with USAir to take over management and operation of the airline with USAir taking a stake and branding it as the "USAir Shuttle". It was a completely septette airline with its own fleet, crews, etc. USAir, having slots a plenty at DCA also connected the dots and added DCA-BOS to the shuttle service. Slowly USAir/USAIrways took over full ownership of the airline and it was integrated into USAirways. When USAirways bought American, it became rebranded at the American Shuttle.

So since the early 80s, there have been two "shuttles'....
Eastern Air Shuttle became Trump Shuttle, then USAir Shuttle, then USAirways Shuttle which is now American Airlines Shuttle.
NYAir became Pan Am Shuttle which became and is Delta Shuttle
 
UA444
Posts: 2979
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 2:04 pm

N717TW wrote:
questions wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:

Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


There have been many "shuttles" between BOS-NY-DC since the 1950s. What we think of as the "Shuttle" is the hourly, no reservation service between Boston Logan- NY LaGuardia and National Airport. That was invented by EA. It was as close to the 42nd street Shuttle in NYC as you could get in aviation. You showed up and got on the plane. Tickets were literally taken on the plane by the flight attendants. If the plane was full there was a back up fleet (originally Viscounts, I think) to fly extra flights.

Post deregulation, Frank Lorenzo grabbed access to the three airports (which is shocking now, but had extra capacity in the early 80s) and created a rival shuttle under New York Air. It turned the shuttle from "bus" service into a business class service with the bagels, etc. During the early. and mid-80s they battled on service, reliability and not on price..

When Texas Air bought eastern (having owned NY Air/Continental/etc.) it agreed to sell the "Shuttle" operation to Pan Am Corp. Pan Am set up the Shuttle as a separate Company, called "Pan Am Shuttle, Inc." which was then sold in the Pan Am bankruptcy to Delta and became "Delta Shuttle, Inc." also a septette company owned by Delta. Delta continued to operate the Shuttle as a separate "airline within the airline" with its own dedicated (all Y with 36" pitch) fleet (727s, then 737s then MD-88s), separate terminal at LGA and operating processes through 2008. During the 90s, DL added shuttle like service between DC and Boston using the shuttle fleet and in the '00s added Chicago-LGA. While Delta Shuttle, Inc. may still exist on paper, it doesn't exist as an airline operating company anymore. All flights are sold and managed by Delta Air Lines, Inc. Most flights (up to Covid) were actually operated by Republic d/b/a "Delta Shuttle"

As for EA. When it entered bankruptcy, Lorenzo organized quickly to sell the Shuttle...for a huge sum...to Trump who rebranded it as Trump Shuttle. The airline went bankrupt with the creditors (Citibank being the largest) taking control and renaming the airline Shuttle, Inc. They cut a deal with USAir to take over management and operation of the airline with USAir taking a stake and branding it as the "USAir Shuttle". It was a completely septette airline with its own fleet, crews, etc. USAir, having slots a plenty at DCA also connected the dots and added DCA-BOS to the shuttle service. Slowly USAir/USAIrways took over full ownership of the airline and it was integrated into USAirways. When USAirways bought American, it became rebranded at the American Shuttle.

So since the early 80s, there have been two "shuttles'....
Eastern Air Shuttle became Trump Shuttle, then USAir Shuttle, then USAirways Shuttle which is now American Airlines Shuttle.
NYAir became Pan Am Shuttle which became and is Delta Shuttle

USAirways did not buy American
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1881
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 10:38 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
In the fall of 1981, New York Air added LGA-DTW. At the time, AA had almost hourly service on this route, with departures on the hour from DTW, and on the half hour from LGA. It was also among AA's most profitable routes.

AA immediately matched New York Air's fares, and launched an aggressive advertising campaign in Detroit. Within 6 months, New York Air was forced to switch from DTW-LGA to DTW-EWR.

At DTW, New York Air used Braniff's old ticket counter in the L C Smith terminal, and their flights departed from an ex-TWA gate on the C concourse that conveniently already had a dark red podium backdrop.


AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.


LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.
 
phllax
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 11:23 pm

N717TW wrote:
USAir, having slots a plenty at DCA also connected the dots and added DCA-BOS to the shuttle service. Slowly USAir/USAIrways took over full ownership of the airline and it was integrated into USAirways.


USAir operated "hourly best" service between Boston and EWR, PHL and DCA with different mainline during the time they managed the Shuttle.

US took over the shuttle when they purchased it, after outbidding AA and possibly NW. It was not a slow takeover during the time Citi owned it.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 11:28 pm

N717TW wrote:
questions wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:

Pan Am Shuttle was the original New York Air BOS-LGA-DCA operation, which Lorenzo had to sell when he purchased Eastern. Pan Am paid $61m. As you mention, Delta purchased Pan Am Shuttle in 1991. The Bagels have indeed survived all three incarnations.


I’m missing something. Please clarify.

I thought there were two shuttles operating at the same time. The Pan Am Shuttle and the Eastern Shuttle.

Was the Pan Am Shuttle the first to operate? Did Lorenzo's company own the Pan Am Shuttle prior to acquiring Eastern and therefore had to sell the Pan Am Shuttle? Did Pan Am purchase the Shuttle back from Lorenzo for $61M?

Thanks.


There have been many "shuttles" between BOS-NY-DC since the 1950s. What we think of as the "Shuttle" is the hourly, no reservation service between Boston Logan- NY LaGuardia and National Airport. That was invented by EA. It was as close to the 42nd street Shuttle in NYC as you could get in aviation. You showed up and got on the plane. Tickets were literally taken on the plane by the flight attendants. If the plane was full there was a back up fleet (originally Viscounts, I think) to fly extra flights.

Post deregulation, Frank Lorenzo grabbed access to the three airports (which is shocking now, but had extra capacity in the early 80s) and created a rival shuttle under New York Air. It turned the shuttle from "bus" service into a business class service with the bagels, etc. During the early. and mid-80s they battled on service, reliability and not on price..

When Texas Air bought eastern (having owned NY Air/Continental/etc.) it agreed to sell the "Shuttle" operation to Pan Am Corp. Pan Am set up the Shuttle as a separate Company, called "Pan Am Shuttle, Inc." which was then sold in the Pan Am bankruptcy to Delta and became "Delta Shuttle, Inc." also a septette company owned by Delta. Delta continued to operate the Shuttle as a separate "airline within the airline" with its own dedicated (all Y with 36" pitch) fleet (727s, then 737s then MD-88s), separate terminal at LGA and operating processes through 2008. During the 90s, DL added shuttle like service between DC and Boston using the shuttle fleet and in the '00s added Chicago-LGA. While Delta Shuttle, Inc. may still exist on paper, it doesn't exist as an airline operating company anymore. All flights are sold and managed by Delta Air Lines, Inc. Most flights (up to Covid) were actually operated by Republic d/b/a "Delta Shuttle"

As for EA. When it entered bankruptcy, Lorenzo organized quickly to sell the Shuttle...for a huge sum...to Trump who rebranded it as Trump Shuttle. The airline went bankrupt with the creditors (Citibank being the largest) taking control and renaming the airline Shuttle, Inc. They cut a deal with USAir to take over management and operation of the airline with USAir taking a stake and branding it as the "USAir Shuttle". It was a completely septette airline with its own fleet, crews, etc. USAir, having slots a plenty at DCA also connected the dots and added DCA-BOS to the shuttle service. Slowly USAir/USAIrways took over full ownership of the airline and it was integrated into USAirways. When USAirways bought American, it became rebranded at the American Shuttle.

So since the early 80s, there have been two "shuttles'....
Eastern Air Shuttle became Trump Shuttle, then USAir Shuttle, then USAirways Shuttle which is now American Airlines Shuttle.
NYAir became Pan Am Shuttle which became and is Delta Shuttle


It was a completely septette airline with its own fleet, crews, etc. USAir, having slots a plenty at DCA also connected the dots and added DCA-BOS to the shuttle service. Slowly USAir/USAIrways took over full ownership of the airline and it was integrated into USAirways. When USAirways bought American, it became rebranded at the American Shuttle.

Not exactly. The Trump Shuttle never turned a profit and was initially leased to USAIr to operate it for a time. By the mid-1990s it was fully integrated into USAir, which then had rebranded itself in 1996 as USAirways. USAirways did not buy American Airlines. It was rebranded American Shuttle though the branding is very lightly used and apart from some airport signage, it is not illustrated on the planes themselves.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 457
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Thu May 28, 2020 11:32 pm

Great video! Remember seeing the Apple Tales at LGA. Great branding to go with going after your target market! Unique livery. Awesome creation born out of deregulation and disintegration out of the consequences of deregulation!
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 459
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 12:54 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
In the fall of 1981, New York Air added LGA-DTW. At the time, AA had almost hourly service on this route, with departures on the hour from DTW, and on the half hour from LGA. It was also among AA's most profitable routes.

AA immediately matched New York Air's fares, and launched an aggressive advertising campaign in Detroit. Within 6 months, New York Air was forced to switch from DTW-LGA to DTW-EWR.

At DTW, New York Air used Braniff's old ticket counter in the L C Smith terminal, and their flights departed from an ex-TWA gate on the C concourse that conveniently already had a dark red podium backdrop.


AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.


LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.


Thanks, I always wondered if TW or NW in particular had authority. Or maybe DL or EA. Because it's a HUGE market and AA is the only airline I recall flying it. But yes didn't think about JFK and EWR. Was thinking specifically LGA-DTW being all AA and almost hourly.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 459
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 12:58 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.


LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.


Thanks, I always wondered if TW or NW in particular had authority. Or maybe DL or EA. Because it's a HUGE market and AA is the only airline I recall flying it. But yes didn't think about JFK and EWR. Was thinking specifically LGA-DTW being all AA and almost hourly.



I also recall as AA retrenched to a dual hub carrier in 1982 and 1983 (DFW & ORD) outside of transcontinental and Caribbean routes, LGA-DTW remained as the outlier of hubs. And still IIRC was served 6-7 times a day. I'm thinking the NW/Republic merger ended that and NW eventually became the dominant carrier.

FYI, another note is EA was slot constrained at LGA from 1981 to about 1983 - so the shuttle, ATL, CLT and Florida took up most of the slots. I recall them getting a bunch more slots in 1984 or so and being able to take other destinations to more frequent service. Think RDU went from maybe 2x daily to 5x.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.


LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.


Thanks, I always wondered if TW or NW in particular had authority. Or maybe DL or EA. Because it's a HUGE market and AA is the only airline I recall flying it. But yes didn't think about JFK and EWR. Was thinking specifically LGA-DTW being all AA and almost hourly.


AA, NW, and UA (via Capital) were the only airlines with New York City-Detroit authority until just before deregulation. TWA flew the route, but was only allowed to carry people making connections to their transatlantic flights at JFK - no local traffic. In 1978, TWA was allowed to carry local passengers between New York City and Detroit.
 
mga707
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 4:47 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
In the fall of 1981, New York Air added LGA-DTW. At the time, AA had almost hourly service on this route, with departures on the hour from DTW, and on the half hour from LGA. It was also among AA's most profitable routes.

AA immediately matched New York Air's fares, and launched an aggressive advertising campaign in Detroit. Within 6 months, New York Air was forced to switch from DTW-LGA to DTW-EWR.

At DTW, New York Air used Braniff's old ticket counter in the L C Smith terminal, and their flights departed from an ex-TWA gate on the C concourse that conveniently already had a dark red podium backdrop.


AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.


LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.


Checking my 1970s United timetables, they were still flying DTW-LGA with multiple flights in the summer of '73, but by the fall of '74 their only Detroit-New York area service was one sole flight to EWR. The C.A.B. must have approved their dropping the route, as airlines could not simply add or drop routes in the regulated era, but why UA wanted out of this market I do not know.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4845
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 6:10 am

Cody wrote:
I don't think New York Air people ended up at Pan Am a 'la Trump Shuttle, US Airways.

As far as I know Pan Am folks were only able to keep partial seniority with United and Delta in the Pacific/Atlantic asset acquisitions.

What I want to know is did Pan Am Shuttle employees go to Delta when Delta took the Shuttle.



only the Pan Am Pilots and Flight attendants who were flying the "Pacific division" came with the planes. Many station Employees in the far east also came to United as well and if I'm not mistaken United hired all of Pan Am's LHR Maint. and Ops people as well. Many more were offered jobs but I have no idea how many..
It was interesting though. the Crews were sa0vy and knew their stuff. They taught us a lot and we showed them a Lot.
They got to see how we liked the quality and we treated them with the same quality. When they called? We came running. We overhauled all the 747-SP's and L1011-500's they sent us and even bought 5 derelict 747-123's sitting in New York and overhauled them too. By the time we were done we were flying 18 747-122B's 5 747-123B's, 5 L-1011-500's 6 747-SP21's and 2 SP- 27's and 5 DC-10-30's all in the Pacific on Ex-Pan Am routes. up to the arrival of the 747-422's
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 459
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 5:07 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:

LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.


Thanks, I always wondered if TW or NW in particular had authority. Or maybe DL or EA. Because it's a HUGE market and AA is the only airline I recall flying it. But yes didn't think about JFK and EWR. Was thinking specifically LGA-DTW being all AA and almost hourly.


AA, NW, and UA (via Capital) were the only airlines with New York City-Detroit authority until just before deregulation. TWA flew the route, but was only allowed to carry people making connections to their transatlantic flights at JFK - no local traffic. In 1978, TWA was allowed to carry local passengers between New York City and Detroit.



Yep Pan Am similarly got the authority to fly local passengers between Detroit and Boston at the same time. Previously was just a tag-on for London service. Pan Am had at various times flown DTW-LHR in the 70's in an interchange with NW (MSP-DTW-LHR) but after the route swaps with TW and AA as well general ramping down in the mid 1970's they flew via BOS. TW DTW-JFK a similar tag-on to Europe. A heavily slimmed-down Pan Am was doing better financially than ever in the late 1970's but that would soon change and never correct itself sadly.
Last edited by MIAFLLPBIFlyer on Fri May 29, 2020 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Fri May 29, 2020 5:09 pm

mga707 wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

AA's LGA-DTW was one of the great monopolies of the regulated era. Arguably the most lucrative monopoly route.


LGA-DTW was never a true "monopoly", because other airlines did have authority to fly it.

The Sep 1972 OAG says AA flew LGA-DTW 9x day (6x 727-100, 2x 727-200, 1x DC-10). UA flew it 7x day (3x 737-200, 3x 727-100, 1x 727-200) and NW flew 2x 727-100s.

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (1x 707, 2x 727-200, 2x 727-100).

From JFK, NW flew 2x 707 and AA flew 1x 707.

By July, 1977, however, AA was the only airline with LGA-DTW flights. AA flew the route 12x day (7x 727-100, 5x 727-200).

From EWR, NW flew 5x day (3x DC-10, 2x 727-100) and AA flew a 1x day 707 that originated in SJU.

From JFK, NW flew 2x day 747 and AA flew 1x day DC-10.


Checking my 1970s United timetables, they were still flying DTW-LGA with multiple flights in the summer of '73, but by the fall of '74 their only Detroit-New York area service was one sole flight to EWR. The C.A.B. must have approved their dropping the route, as airlines could not simply add or drop routes in the regulated era, but why UA wanted out of this market I do not know.



Interesting. My earliest UA timetable is January 1975 and only EWR-DTW is flown. Whatever the reasons for withdrawals, AA was left with a goldmine on LGA-DTW for years.
 
vegasplanes
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat May 30, 2020 4:53 pm

1973-74 coincides with the Arab Oil Embargo and the beginning of the decline of the Big 3 (American Auto Industry) - hence UA dropped DTW-LGA - AA was the big airline at DTW prior to Deregulation, UA had a decent operation as well, however, AA had the following as of 12/1/74 from DTW:

BOS - 4x 707
BUF - 3x 707
ORD - 4x D10, 5x 707, 1x 727
DFW - 1x 707, 1x 727
IND - 4x 707
LAX - 2x D10
LGA - 12x 727 - up to depending on day
SFO - 2x 707
SYR - 1x 707

Up to 40 flights per day on AA

UA had the following as of 6/1/72 from DTW

BAL - 2x
ORD - 5x
CLE - 1x
DEN - 3x
LAS - 1x
LAX - 3x
LGA - 7x
PHL - 4x
PIT - 1x
SFO - 2x
DCA - 5x

UA had 34 flights as of 6/1/72 and then by 6/11/76 UA flew the following from DTW:

ORD - 6x
CLE - 1x
DEN - 4x
LAS - 1x
LAX - 1x
ORF - 1x
PHL - 4x
PIT - 1x
SFO - 1x
DCA - 2x
BAL - 1x

UA was down to 23 flights by 6/11/76

As late as 01/20/79 AA had up to 39 daily departures from DTW -

BOS - 3x 727, 1x 707
BUF - 1x 727
ORD - 3x 727, 2x 707, 2x D10
DFW - 1x 727
IND - 2x 727
LAS - 1x 727
LAX - 1x D10, 2x 707
EWR - 1x 707
LGA - 13x 727 - up to
PHX - 1x 727
STL - 2x 727
SFO - 1x 707
SYR - 1x 707, 1x 727
 
Dominion301
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat May 30, 2020 10:10 pm

CV990A wrote:
afcjets wrote:
USAir had that exact configuration on their DC9s before merging with Piedmont in 1989, but AFAIK they didn't fly that route non-stop. Did you connect or fly another time as a UM?


I did fly ISP-DCA non-stop as a UM several years later with USAir - but it was on a Dash 8.

I could be mis-remembering the seating configuration as I was only 5 or 6 at the time. But it was on New York Air - that big red DC-9 certainly stood out to me, and my folks still have the button with the airline's logo I got on the flight.


Maybe you were on a Dash 8-100 in the 39 seat configuration where row 1 on the starboard side of the aircraft faced row 2. Mixing up to separate trips perhaps?
 
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CV990A
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sat May 30, 2020 11:27 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Maybe you were on a Dash 8-100 in the 39 seat configuration where row 1 on the starboard side of the aircraft faced row 2. Mixing up to separate trips perhaps?


No - I remember the Dash-8 clearly, as I had a window seat, and was upset I couldn't see squat because the engine blocked my view!
Kittens Give Morbo Gas
 
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admanager
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun May 31, 2020 2:16 am

Thanks.[/quote]

There have been many "shuttles" between BOS-NY-DC since the 1950s. What we think of as the "Shuttle" is the hourly, no reservation service between Boston Logan- NY LaGuardia and National Airport. That was invented by EA. It was as close to the 42nd street Shuttle in NYC as you could get in aviation. You showed up and got on the plane. Tickets were literally taken on the plane by the flight attendants. If the plane was full there was a back up fleet (originally Viscounts, I think) to fly extra flights. [/quote]

Back up was on Connies. EA never had Viscounts.
They would fly the backup with 1 passenger if need be.
 
mga707
Posts: 309
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Sun May 31, 2020 4:03 am


There have been many "shuttles" between BOS-NY-DC since the 1950s. What we think of as the "Shuttle" is the hourly, no reservation service between Boston Logan- NY LaGuardia and National Airport. That was invented by EA. It was as close to the 42nd street Shuttle in NYC as you could get in aviation. You showed up and got on the plane. Tickets were literally taken on the plane by the flight attendants. If the plane was full there was a back up fleet (originally Viscounts, I think) to fly extra flights.


Back up was on Connies. EA never had Viscounts.
They would fly the backup with 1 passenger if need be.


The Eastern Air Shuttle originally operated Constellations, both first sections and extra sections ('back ups'). In the early '60s Electras replaced the Constellations on the first sections. Eastern ordered the DC-9-30 in large part for the Shuttle, and once they came on board (and DCA opened to jets) in the mid-'60s the Electras replaced the last of Eastern's Constellations as the back-up aircraft. In the 1970s 727s gradually replaced the DC-9s on the Shuttle, and the last Electra 'extra section' aircraft were finally retired in late 1977.
 
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N717TW
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:08 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
USAirways did not buy American Airlines. It was rebranded American Shuttle though the branding is very lightly used and apart from some airport signage, it is not illustrated on the planes themselves.


USAirways most certainly bought American Airlines. AA's parent, AMR Corp, was in bankruptcy and sold itself and its American Airlines unit to USAirways Group, which merged the two companies and changed its names to American Airlines Group. That's how USAir's CEO, Doug Parker, became the new CEO of American while Tom Horton of AA retired.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1798
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Re: New York Air vs Eastern Air Lines 1981

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:31 pm

N717TW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
USAirways did not buy American Airlines. It was rebranded American Shuttle though the branding is very lightly used and apart from some airport signage, it is not illustrated on the planes themselves.


USAirways most certainly bought American Airlines. AA's parent, AMR Corp, was in bankruptcy and sold itself and its American Airlines unit to USAirways Group, which merged the two companies and changed its names to American Airlines Group. That's how USAir's CEO, Doug Parker, became the new CEO of American while Tom Horton of AA retired.


Yes, you're right. US Airways purchased AMR, but USAirways shareholders would only get 28% of the shares of the combined company. The rest of it went to AMR creditors.

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