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SR380
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Question about KLM Asia

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:14 pm

Hey guys,

I came to realized today that some of KL 777s still had the KLM Asia logo. Now I know most airlines that did serve Taipei, such as BA or QF that use to have such subsidiary are not flying there anymore. Is it still forbidden for national airlines to fly to both the People's Republic of China (Continental China) and the Republic of China (Taiwan)?

Thanks in advance.

Stay safe! Cheers,
 
AMP44
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:27 pm

Some comments from an old post about KLM Asia / Other airline's own "Asia" carriers (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1345325):

The KLM- asia brand is kept because KLM as the official state carrier is still operating at the People's Republic China (PRC) and Taiwan simultaneously. (PAX and Cargo)

Despite the slowly relaxing relations, but seen the (submarine) difficulties in the past between the Netherlands and the PRC, KLM (and the Netherlands government) doesn't want to offend the PRC to protect their commerial interests (trade) in the PRC and is now "the best boy in class" and maintains two seperate entities (brands).

The KLM brand is allowed to carry the crown by Royal privilege, the KLM-ASIA brand doesn't have that privilege, conseq. no crown has been added above KLM- ASIA.
--
QF, for example, established Australia Asia Airlines in 1990 with the IATA code IM and a livery that, although still distinctly Qantas, did not display either the Australian flag or the Flying Kangaroo. From 1992 onwards QF was privatised and so the IM code was retired in 1994 and in 1996 the entire Australia Asia brand was withdrawn as QF proper resumed TPE service.

BA, having been privatised in 1987 strictly speaking didn't need to use the British Asia Airways brand but did anyway from 1993 onwards, using the BR code it inherited from British Caledonia. The brand remained in use until TPE services were terminated in 2001.
--
 
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SR380
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:46 am

Thanks for the update. What bugs me is that KL is not fully state owned. The government only holds about 14%. I guess they rely don't want any issues with the PRC.
 
dhaliwal
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:13 am

SR380 wrote:
Thanks for the update. What bugs me is that KL is not fully state owned. The government only holds about 14%. I guess they rely don't want any issues with the PRC.


Why cant state carries with their original names fly to PRC? How does their original name cause issues? I dont get it.
 
Toinou
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:21 am

dhaliwal wrote:
SR380 wrote:
Thanks for the update. What bugs me is that KL is not fully state owned. The government only holds about 14%. I guess they rely don't want any issues with the PRC.


Why cant state carries with their original names fly to PRC? How does their original name cause issues? I dont get it.


It's the contrary: PRC tend (or at least tended) to get upset with airlines (and owner states) flying to Taiwan but seemed to accept the legal fiction of having a fully owned subsidiary flying there. So airlines established a special airline to fly to Taiwan. The aircrafts had a slightly different livery (but always clearly derivative of the parent company) and usually didn't display their country's flag. You would buy ticket through the parent company and most customer would barely notice the difference.
As of today, many airlines discontinued this practice. Frequently, the did so when they ended flying to Taipei, usually during the aftermath of the Asian economical crisis of 1997 or of 9/11. Some since restarted routes to Taiwan without this system, so I guess to PRC is now tolerating this.
 
johnclipper
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:45 am

It's funny (or sad), that PRC is not consistent even in their own ruling when it benefits them. For example, PRC forced ALL airlines to show HK, Macao and Taiwan as "subsidiaries" of China on their websites. But, during this COVID-19 pandemic, PRC reported "0" new infection cases one day while HK had 4. Surely, when it is convenient for them HK is part of China and when it is not, we are not!
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:06 am

I did fly on one of KLM Asia's B772's to JFK, there was nothing different inside compared to the other B772s of KLM I had flown. I am almost 100% sure KLM's crew can fly either aircraft too.
Flying Together
 
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Velocity7
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:01 am

I only asked myself the same question last week when KLM sent one of their 772 to SYD wearing the KLM Asia livery. Thanks for posting!
 
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conaly
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:55 am

Quick question in regards of this topic: which airlines did use a subsidiary for PRC or Taiwan flights?

I know of following:

KLM with KLM Asia (no crown on titles)
British Airways with British Asia Airways (Landor livery without Union Jack and crest on tail, Utopia livery without the Union Jack tail, Chinese characters instead)
Air France with Air France Asie (no red lines on the tail, therefore without French flag)
Swissair with Swissair Asia (no Swiss cross on the tail and winglets, Chinese character instead)
Lufthansa with Condor (full Condor livery on Lufthansa owned aircraft)

Are there any more?
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hoons90
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:58 am

conaly wrote:
Quick question in regards of this topic: which airlines did use a subsidiary for PRC or Taiwan flights?

I know of following:

KLM with KLM Asia (no crown on titles)
British Airways with British Asia Airways (Landor livery without Union Jack and crest on tail, Utopia livery without the Union Jack tail, Chinese characters instead)
Air France with Air France Asie (no red lines on the tail, therefore without French flag)
Swissair with Swissair Asia (no Swiss cross on the tail and winglets, Chinese character instead)
Lufthansa with Condor (full Condor livery on Lufthansa owned aircraft)

Are there any more?


Japan Asia Airways (JAL)
Australia Asia Airlines (Qantas)
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Coal
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:18 am

AMP44 wrote:
Some comments from an old post about KLM Asia / Other airline's own "Asia" carriers (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1345325):

The KLM- asia brand is kept because KLM as the official state carrier is still operating at the People's Republic China (PRC) and Taiwan simultaneously. (PAX and Cargo)

Despite the slowly relaxing relations, but seen the (submarine) difficulties in the past between the Netherlands and the PRC, KLM (and the Netherlands government) doesn't want to offend the PRC to protect their commerial interests (trade) in the PRC and is now "the best boy in class" and maintains two seperate entities (brands).

The KLM brand is allowed to carry the crown by Royal privilege, the KLM-ASIA brand doesn't have that privilege, conseq. no crown has been added above KLM- ASIA.
--
QF, for example, established Australia Asia Airlines in 1990 with the IATA code IM and a livery that, although still distinctly Qantas, did not display either the Australian flag or the Flying Kangaroo. From 1992 onwards QF was privatised and so the IM code was retired in 1994 and in 1996 the entire Australia Asia brand was withdrawn as QF proper resumed TPE service.

BA, having been privatised in 1987 strictly speaking didn't need to use the British Asia Airways brand but did anyway from 1993 onwards, using the BR code it inherited from British Caledonia. The brand remained in use until TPE services were terminated in 2001.
--

I don't think this is right. There are many state-owned airlines in SE Asia that are the official state airline / flag carrier and fly to both PRC and ROC and don't have a separate brand or entity to serve Taiwan.
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Toinou
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:34 am

That's exactly the question I wanted to ask: which airlines did fly (let's say before 2000) to both PRC and ROC without having any special arrangement? And how did they do that? How did PRC react?
 
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VinceM
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:56 am

I had a similar question some weeks ago. Apparently, "KLM Asia is still the only airline to fly directly TPE-AMS using Chinese airspace (albeit using Hong Kong as crossover airspace). EVA Air detours via Bangkok and China Airlines via South Korea [...]" quoting an answer I have gotten by a spotter. So probably just from a fuel cost perspective it makes sense to continue use this subsidiary.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:30 am

hoons90 wrote:
conaly wrote:
Quick question in regards of this topic: which airlines did use a subsidiary for PRC or Taiwan flights?

I know of following:

KLM with KLM Asia (no crown on titles)
British Airways with British Asia Airways (Landor livery without Union Jack and crest on tail, Utopia livery without the Union Jack tail, Chinese characters instead)
Air France with Air France Asie (no red lines on the tail, therefore without French flag)
Swissair with Swissair Asia (no Swiss cross on the tail and winglets, Chinese character instead)
Lufthansa with Condor (full Condor livery on Lufthansa owned aircraft)

Are there any more?


Japan Asia Airways (JAL)
Australia Asia Airlines (Qantas)

Here are some photos from the database to illustrate this, showing the standard and Asia airlines side by side.

KLM - Royal Dutch Airlines / KLM Asia
1971 Livery


2002 Livery

Updated titles


2014 Livery


British Airways / British Asia Airways
Landor Livery

NB the Chinese characters for British Asia (英亞 Yīng Yà) on the fin in place of the usual crest and flag elements

Utopia Livery
Benyhone Tartan

Chelsea Rose

NB the Rendezvous livery which Conaly was refering to doesn't appear to have been used with British Asia Airways titles:


Air France / Air France Asie
Passenger


Cargo


Swissair / Swissair Asia

The character on the tail is 瑞 (ruì) from the Chinese translation of Switzerland, 瑞士 (Ruìshì)

Lufthansa / Condor


Japan Airlines / Asia Airways
1958 Livery


1989 Livery

Updated titles


2002 Livery


Qantas / Australia Asia


V/F
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Antaras
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:17 am

Sorry if I didn't get it. State-owned VN serves both Taiwan and mainland, why is there no "Asia" brand.
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BML87
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:35 am

I don't get it either. Air France and Air New Zealand serve Taipei with their regular brands.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:41 am

After this mess the days of bending over for the PRC are done. From an Av standpoint it's a 40 year reset.....western airlines are doing them a favour by going there, not the other way around
 
FGITD
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:44 am

I'm fairly certain the KLM Asia subsidiary doesn't actually exist anymore, beyond the livery.

As to why those planes are still painted with Asia titles....not sure. Perhaps something to do with the KLM livery including direct symbols of the Dutch monarchy? Though I don't think that holds up well considering the Swiss livery is their flag, and the AF tail is petty much a stylized flag. I'm sure there's some benefit to it.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:06 am

FGITD wrote:
I'm fairly certain the KLM Asia subsidiary doesn't actually exist anymore, beyond the livery.

As to why those planes are still painted with Asia titles....not sure. Perhaps something to do with the KLM livery including direct symbols of the Dutch monarchy? Though I don't think that holds up well considering the Swiss livery is their flag, and the AF tail is petty much a stylized flag. I'm sure there's some benefit to it.


Indeed but AF Asie liveries had the tail red stripe painted in blue, probably to "disguise" the French Flag.

BTW I couldn't see any difference in LH and Condor "Asia" liveries.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:57 am

FGITD wrote:
I'm fairly certain the KLM Asia subsidiary doesn't actually exist anymore, beyond the livery.

As to why those planes are still painted with Asia titles....not sure. Perhaps something to do with the KLM livery including direct symbols of the Dutch monarchy? Though I don't think that holds up well considering the Swiss livery is their flag, and the AF tail is petty much a stylized flag. I'm sure there's some benefit to it.


Not sure if this is what you are asking, but KLM livery includes Dutch crown image, as KLM holds a royal warrant, and may use "Royal" in both name and logo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_war ... etherlands
On the other hand, "KLM Asia" was never granted such distinction, and thus the crown is missing from imagery.

On broader question, yes all of this "XYZ Asia Airlines" was a sham, of "wink-wink, nod-nod" variety. Everyone (including Beijing and Taipei politicians) obviously knew what was going on, and found it a feasible (enough) compromise.
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FGITD
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:12 am

Phosphorus wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I'm fairly certain the KLM Asia subsidiary doesn't actually exist anymore, beyond the livery.

As to why those planes are still painted with Asia titles....not sure. Perhaps something to do with the KLM livery including direct symbols of the Dutch monarchy? Though I don't think that holds up well considering the Swiss livery is their flag, and the AF tail is petty much a stylized flag. I'm sure there's some benefit to it.


Not sure if this is what you are asking, but KLM livery includes Dutch crown image, as KLM holds a royal warrant, and may use "Royal" in both name and logo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_war ... etherlands
On the other hand, "KLM Asia" was never granted such distinction, and thus the crown is missing from imagery.

On broader question, yes all of this "XYZ Asia Airlines" was a sham, of "wink-wink, nod-nod" variety. Everyone (including Beijing and Taipei politicians) obviously knew what was going on, and found it a feasible (enough) compromise.


Yes! Exactly what I was referring to. Maybe the powers that be took issue with "Royal" Dutch Airline vs just "British Airways" and so on.

Agreed. It was all nonsense, unnecessary pandering
 
LJ
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:29 am

SR380 wrote:
Thanks for the update. What bugs me is that KL is not fully state owned. The government only holds about 14%. I guess they rely don't want any issues with the PRC.


Traffic rights are between The Netherlands and China. You've to keep in mind that at the time The Netherlands and China didn't have such a cosy relationship as they currently have. Being a small country, you don't have much leverage against China. Moreover, the additional benefit (getting traffic rights to Beijing and Shanghai) far outweights the additional cost.

Toinou wrote:
Some since restarted routes to Taiwan without this system, so I guess to PRC is now tolerating this.


They do tolerate it, but they also seem to appreciate the effort KLM is doing.
 
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conaly
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:32 am

ojjunior wrote:
BTW I couldn't see any difference in LH and Condor "Asia" liveries.


The difference is the Condor livery. The aircraft was owned by Lufthansa, but was flying in Condor colors to Taiwan, so LH could operate with their own brand to mainland China.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:47 am

Coal wrote:
I don't think this is right. There are many state-owned airlines in SE Asia that are the official state airline / flag carrier and fly to both PRC and ROC and don't have a separate brand or entity to serve Taiwan.


Antaras wrote:
Sorry if I didn't get it. State-owned VN serves both Taiwan and mainland, why is there no "Asia" brand.


SE Asia countries are somewhat insignificant for the PRC to demand such actions I suppose.

Note that only certain Western countries are subject to this rule, with Japan being the odd Asian one.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
marcelh
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:57 am

VinceM wrote:
I had a similar question some weeks ago. Apparently, "KLM Asia is still the only airline to fly directly TPE-AMS using Chinese airspace (albeit using Hong Kong as crossover airspace). EVA Air detours via Bangkok and China Airlines via South Korea [...]" quoting an answer I have gotten by a spotter. So probably just from a fuel cost perspective it makes sense to continue use this subsidiary.


KLM uses both the "regular" as the "KLM Asia" branded planes on the flights to TPE.
 
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Coal
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:38 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Coal wrote:
I don't think this is right. There are many state-owned airlines in SE Asia that are the official state airline / flag carrier and fly to both PRC and ROC and don't have a separate brand or entity to serve Taiwan.


Antaras wrote:
Sorry if I didn't get it. State-owned VN serves both Taiwan and mainland, why is there no "Asia" brand.


SE Asia countries are somewhat insignificant for the PRC to demand such actions I suppose.

Note that only certain Western countries are subject to this rule, with Japan being the odd Asian one.

You're clearly not from the region.
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alitis
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:45 am

Did the Orient in old Northwest Orient Airlines name have anything to do with this?
 
trex8
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:36 am

This all started when Japan recognized the PRC and Beijing insisted airlines couldn’t fly to both PRC and ROC or have a CI plane at the same airport as a CAAC one. The US told Beijing to f... off. Most SE Asian nations had stronger economic ties to Taiwan in the 70s than to mainland China so Singapore Phillipines Malaysia Indonesia Thailand pretty much told Beijing to f.... off to. Vietnam was communist by now and nothing much was happening with Taiwan then. Koreans didn’t change diplomatic recognition to Beijing till quite late and then banned CI which got Taipei so upset there were quite a few years where the only planes flying scheduled flights between TPE and SEL were CX and SQ! Canadians never really had much or any in way flights to Taiwan and Canadian Pacific was the main carrier transpacific. CI setup Mandarin to fly flights to places where they couldn’t fly the ROC flag. Then BR came along so there was an alternate Taiwan carrier to some places besides AE. CI also adopted the cherry blossom livery and dropped the ROC flag/colors. Also probably since late 1990s Beijing has been less concerned about these issues.
Also why when every international carrier had moved from Haneda to Narita when it opened, CI stayed at Haneda!
 
factsonly
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:20 am

In the 1980's Taiwan and the Netherlands established to very first air route between Europe and Taiwan with each nation permitted 2x weekly frequencies.
Both nations had to avoid all use of PRC airspace. In the 1980's KLM did not operate to/from PRC at all.

In 1983 China Airlines launched 1x weekly TPE-DXB-AMS with B747SP and later added 1x weekly TATL service TPE-ANC-JFK-AMS with B747-200C.
When AMS was fogged in, China Airlines could only divert to another NL airport, mostly Maastricht.

On the Dutch side Martinair Holland initially operated the route (on paper) on behalf of KLM, even though KLM did not operate to the PRC at that time.

Today KLM Royal Dutch Airlines operates from AMS to 5x PRC destinations, but the airline is still not permitted to operate AMS - Taiwan through PRC airspace.
However, its subsidiary KLM Asia is permitted to operate AMS-Taiwan using PRC airspace.

Flight time comparison:

KLM ASIA saves KLM over 1hr flight time on AMS-TPE v.v. permitting a more direct routing:

- AMS-TPE non-stop with KLM Asia = 11hrs.28min routing over PRC. (April 17, 2020)
- TPE-AMS nonstop with KLM Asia = 12hrs.32min routing over PRC. (April 18, 2020)

TOTAL RETURN FLIGHT TIME = 24 hrs exactly.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/kl807#245f2ab8

CHINA AIRLINES:

- AMS-TPE non-stop on CI - Flight time = 12hrs.11min routing avoiding PRC. (April 18, 2020)
- TPE-AMS non-stop on CI - Flight time = 12hrs.53min routing avoiding PRC. (April 18, 2020)

TOTAL RETURN FLIGHT TIME = 25hrs04 min.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ci73#245f4e04
 
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MetalNeutral
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:32 am

CI and BR can (and do) overfly PRC airspace on Taiwan-EU flights, as also do KLM and Air France as well (AF very consistently - I think the only deciding factor being winds). What they cannot do is leaving PRC airspace and enter Taiwan airspace directly - they must do so via the HKG FIR (apparently they can also use the Sanya FIR in a similar fashion). As far as I know, the Chinese CAA refuses flight plans with direct flights to Taiwan overflying PRC territory unless they are routed via HKG or Sanya and that's valid for any airlines and any AOC.

As far as I can remember, KLM is the only airlines keeping such a separate branch nowadays. TPE has seen regular KLM planes while KLM Asia places have been spotted in Chinese airports as well.

Cheers,
MN
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:53 am

Coal wrote:
You're clearly not from the region.


Kuala Lumpur born & raised, actually.

In the grand scheme of world politics in the 80s & 90s, SE Asia isn't really that significant.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
trex8
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:48 am

MetalNeutral wrote:
CI and BR can (and do) overfly PRC airspace on Taiwan-EU flights, as also do KLM and Air France as well (AF very consistently - I think the only deciding factor being winds). What they cannot do is leaving PRC airspace and enter Taiwan airspace directly - they must do so via the HKG FIR (apparently they can also use the Sanya FIR in a similar fashion). As far as I know, the Chinese CAA refuses flight plans with direct flights to Taiwan overflying PRC territory unless they are routed via HKG or Sanya and that's valid for any airlines and any AOC.

As far as I can remember, KLM is the only airlines keeping such a separate branch nowadays. TPE has seen regular KLM planes while KLM Asia places have been spotted in Chinese airports as well.

Cheers,
MN

It’s Taiwan which put certain restrictions which resulted upon those strange routings across the Taiwan Straits for security reasons. It feeds the traffic through specific areas their Patriot and TK ( Taiwanese version of Patriot-US licensed essentially 85% of the early Patriot design to them) missile belts can cover and makes any other traffic more easily identifiable as hostile. Taiwan has the second densest surface air missile defenses after Israel.
 
KFTG
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:52 am

dhaliwal wrote:
Why cant state carries with their original names fly to PRC? How does their original name cause issues? I dont get it.

The pandering to China exhibited by various state actors during the epidemic should provide you with additional insight as to the lengths some firms go to to not offend China in any way. Quite pathetic really.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:01 am

Velocity7 wrote:
I only asked myself the same question last week when KLM sent one of their 772 to SYD wearing the KLM Asia livery. Thanks for posting!


I was really surprised to see KLM sending a KLM Asia bird to SYD in stead of a 'true' crown bearing Boeing. I mean, that would make a nice impression it being your first flight in 20 years!
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
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MetalNeutral
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Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:29 pm

trex8 wrote:
MetalNeutral wrote:
CI and BR can (and do) overfly PRC airspace on Taiwan-EU flights, as also do KLM and Air France as well (AF very consistently - I think the only deciding factor being winds). What they cannot do is leaving PRC airspace and enter Taiwan airspace directly - they must do so via the HKG FIR (apparently they can also use the Sanya FIR in a similar fashion). As far as I know, the Chinese CAA refuses flight plans with direct flights to Taiwan overflying PRC territory unless they are routed via HKG or Sanya and that's valid for any airlines and any AOC.

As far as I can remember, KLM is the only airlines keeping such a separate branch nowadays. TPE has seen regular KLM planes while KLM Asia places have been spotted in Chinese airports as well.

Cheers,
MN

It’s Taiwan which put certain restrictions which resulted upon those strange routings across the Taiwan Straits for security reasons. It feeds the traffic through specific areas their Patriot and TK ( Taiwanese version of Patriot-US licensed essentially 85% of the early Patriot design to them) missile belts can cover and makes any other traffic more easily identifiable as hostile. Taiwan has the second densest surface air missile defenses after Israel.


I'm sure what you mention is part of the equation and I do understand why these are in place, but given the possibility to enter/exit the Shanghai FIR near Wenzhou and then enter/exit Taipei FIR directly, which would be a logical choice for flights overflying Siberia to/from Europe, there must be further restrictions for any airlines to overfly PRC on a direct route to/from Taiwan. Logic suggests me these are placed from the PRC side as that routing is currently available but only used by both Taiwanese and Chinese airlines to points between China and Taiwan.

Cheers,
MN
Why don't you ask the kids at Tienanmen square?
Was fashion the reason why they were there?
 
trex8
Posts: 5551
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:31 pm

There were restrictions by the PRC on Taiwan carriers overflying Xinjiang and other military sensitive regions which prevented them making the shorter trip to Europe that other carriers used even after scheduled cross strait flights started, these seem to have gone away once Taiwan carriers were allowed flights to Urumchi from TPE but the flight corridors across the straits remain.

I suspect even today there's a lot of political tit for tat for silly reasons still going on and one side trying to make things less than ideal for the other.
 
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hongkongflyer
Posts: 798
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:08 pm

MetalNeutral wrote:
CI and BR can (and do) overfly PRC airspace on Taiwan-EU flights, as also do KLM and Air France as well (AF very consistently - I think the only deciding factor being winds). What they cannot do is leaving PRC airspace and enter Taiwan airspace directly - they must do so via the HKG FIR (apparently they can also use the Sanya FIR in a similar fashion). As far as I know, the Chinese CAA refuses flight plans with direct flights to Taiwan overflying PRC territory unless they are routed via HKG or Sanya and that's valid for any airlines and any AOC.

As far as I can remember, KLM is the only airlines keeping such a separate branch nowadays. TPE has seen regular KLM planes while KLM Asia places have been spotted in Chinese airports as well.

Cheers,
MN


This is not the case in 80s 90s and even 00s.
No planes from Taiwan were allowed to overfly China space, that’s why CI was weak in Europe and BR had many 5th freedom Europe flight via BKK
 
LJ
Posts: 5289
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Question about KLM Asia

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:32 pm

KFTG wrote:
dhaliwal wrote:
Why cant state carries with their original names fly to PRC? How does their original name cause issues? I dont get it.

The pandering to China exhibited by various state actors during the epidemic should provide you with additional insight as to the lengths some firms go to to not offend China in any way. Quite pathetic really.


The "price" KLM paid was that it wasn't allowed to serve Beijing and Shanghai for many years whilst one of its main competitor (Lufthansa) was taking all the business away. KLM made $$$$ when things finally opened up. Having to set up a new brand is peanuts compared to the profits KLM made over the years.

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