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Ishrion
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Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:34 pm

Lufthansa is considering:
- Keeping the MD-11Fs in the fleet "beyond the turn of the year" instead of retiring them this year.
- Exchanging early delivery slots for the 777-9 for 777F

If this happens, Lufthansa could get another 777F from October 2020.

https://www.aero.de/news-34963/Lufthans ... haeft.html
 
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Antaras
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:37 pm

This is the second 777X deferral/cancellation thread that I have seen today (after the CX one)
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kevin5345179
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:03 am

Ishrion wrote:
Lufthansa is considering:
- Keeping the MD-11Fs in the fleet "beyond the turn of the year" instead of retiring them this year.
- Exchanging early delivery slots for the 777-9 for 777F

If this happens, Lufthansa could get another 777F from October 2020.

https://www.aero.de/news-34963/Lufthans ... haeft.html


OMAAT's translation regarding the "exchange" you pointed out is to swap the 777X order to 777F.
Any German native speaker that can translate it ?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:37 am

It is unclear even in German. But it seems like they want to change the early 777-9s in to 777F, as there is no mentioning of any new frames ordered.
 
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conaly
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:39 am

The article is talking about new frames, that means additional 777F. Currently, GEC has two more 777F on order, scheduled for delivery for Summer (the article mentions that, too, just without a time frame). The swapped 777F would arrive in October then, so for me it seems pretty clear, that they want to swap not only the delivery slots, but the actual ordered frames. Therefore fewer 777X, more 777F.

Edit:

Sofern sich Boeing auf die Rochade einlässt, könnte Lufthansa weitere 777F schon ab Oktober 2020 erhalten. Davor stockt Lufthansa Cargo die Teilflotte noch um zwei auf neun 777F auf.


Literal translation:
Provided that Boeing is up for the castling*, Lufthansa could get additional 777F from October 2020. Before that, LH will increase the subfleet by two to nine 777F.

*not sure if "castling" (the move in Chess) is used in English as proverb, in German it describes a tactical exchange in any possible case (mostly politics)
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trex8
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:41 pm

conaly wrote:
The article is talking about new frames, that means additional 777F. Currently, GEC has two more 777F on order, scheduled for delivery for Summer (the article mentions that, too, just without a time frame). The swapped 777F would arrive in October then, so for me it seems pretty clear, that they want to swap not only the delivery slots, but the actual ordered frames. Therefore fewer 777X, more 777F.

Edit:

Sofern sich Boeing auf die Rochade einlässt, könnte Lufthansa weitere 777F schon ab Oktober 2020 erhalten. Davor stockt Lufthansa Cargo die Teilflotte noch um zwei auf neun 777F auf.


Literal translation:
Provided that Boeing is up for the castling*, Lufthansa could get additional 777F from October 2020. Before that, LH will increase the subfleet by two to nine 777F.

*not sure if "castling" (the move in Chess) is used in English as proverb, in German it describes a tactical exchange in any possible case (mostly politics)

Delivery in October?? Must either be a frame the original customer no longer wants or a white tail!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:52 pm

trex8 wrote:
Delivery in October?? Must either be a frame the original customer no longer wants or a white tail!

Or perhaps an October customer is willing to accept a deferral.

Airplane financing is very difficult right now, and LH may have better access to financing than others.
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oldJoe
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:54 pm

conaly wrote:
The article is talking about new frames, that means additional 777F. Currently, GEC has two more 777F on order, scheduled for delivery for Summer (the article mentions that, too, just without a time frame). The swapped 777F would arrive in October then, so for me it seems pretty clear, that they want to swap not only the delivery slots, but the actual ordered frames. Therefore fewer 777X, more 777F.

Edit:

Sofern sich Boeing auf die Rochade einlässt, könnte Lufthansa weitere 777F schon ab Oktober 2020 erhalten. Davor stockt Lufthansa Cargo die Teilflotte noch um zwei auf neun 777F auf.


Literal translation:
Provided that Boeing is up for the castling*, Lufthansa could get additional 777F from October 2020. Before that, LH will increase the subfleet by two to nine 777F.

*not sure if "castling" (the move in Chess) is used in English as proverb, in German it describes a tactical exchange in any possible case (mostly politics)


I`m not sure if the political "castling" is the same ?
Politische Rochade : der Wechsel einer vorgesetzten und einer nachgestellten Person in ihren Funktionen oder Ämtern, which translate into :the change of a superior and a subordinate person in their functions or offices. In our case the superior would be the 777-9 and the subordinate the 777F.
The headline of the article says clearly : Lufthansa would prefer Boeing 777F than 777-9. If this deal is going trough the first slots of the 777-9 are gone and will be 777F instead.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:53 pm

Antaras wrote:
This is the second 777X deferral/cancellation thread that I have seen today (after the CX one)


The 777X could become be the real victim of the Corona virus.
Good moaning!
 
Kilopond
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:27 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Antaras wrote:
This is the second 777X deferral/cancellation thread that I have seen today (after the CX one)


The 777X could become be the real victim of the Corona virus.


The article says there are re-negotiations taking place which could mean everything from Lufthansa completely ditching the -9 in favour of the -F, to Lufthansa will just change the delivery sequence, or they will come up with a compromise in between.

To me the most interesting statement in the article is that Lufthansa completely changed their view on the perspectives of air freight. It`s almost a U-turn if they now beliieve the current air cargo hausse would not stop anytime soon after the COVID-19 crisis.
 
tvh
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:56 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Antaras wrote:
This is the second 777X deferral/cancellation thread that I have seen today (after the CX one)


The 777X could become be the real victim of the Corona virus.


Like all those other victims are not real ??
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:07 pm

Kilopond wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Antaras wrote:
This is the second 777X deferral/cancellation thread that I have seen today (after the CX one)


The 777X could become be the real victim of the Corona virus.


The article says there are re-negotiations taking place which could mean everything from Lufthansa completely ditching the -9 in favour of the -F, to Lufthansa will just change the delivery sequence, or they will come up with a compromise in between.

To me the most interesting statement in the article is that Lufthansa completely changed their view on the perspectives of air freight. It`s almost a U-turn if they now beliieve the current air cargo hausse would not stop anytime soon after the COVID-19 crisis.


It suggests swapping some 77X for 77F. 5 would be a heck of an expansion already. Can’t see more than that.
 
vfw614
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:25 pm

If so, they must expect an extremely long period of reduced longhaul passenger traffic and the resulting lack of belly cargo capacity. Otherwise, it does not really makes sense to expand instead of - as previously planned - shrink cargo aircraft capacity significantly. If passenger traffic would return to more healthy levels, I suppose lessand not more freighter capacity would be needed as the economy will most likely go into a recession post-COVID19 with the resulting weaker demand for cargo.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:47 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
[...]t suggests swapping some 77X for 77F. 5 would be a heck of an expansion already. Can’t see more than that.


Agreed! But keep in mind that Lufthansa is a close crony of DHL so that they might be playing around with several different scenarios, including sending some or all additional 777F to Aeorlogic.

vfw614 wrote:
If so, they must expect an extremely long period of reduced longhaul passenger traffic [...]


Exactly that, and even worse: they might also be expecting the current chaos in the marine container shipping industry to last for years to come.
 
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tjcab
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:48 pm

Didn't they once mention that they felt they ordered too many 777's?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:20 am

Good idea not to retire the remaining MD-11s; after all, they're fully paid off and are useful to move the freight that must be moved. As for these 777 freighters---for 3S rather than LH (GEC)?

Also, out of curiosity: does LH (GEC) have a separate crew roster from LH (DLH)?
 
787X30
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:08 am

DUSZRH wrote:
It suggests swapping some 77X for 77F. 5 would be a heck of an expansion already. [...]


Not so much, comparing all the cut belly capa. The cargo to pax ratio surging drastically points to re-balancing fleet to keep in biz.

Thus, bye A346 & hello again M11F. (Iso vv.)
 
IWMBH
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:19 am

I'm happy that the retirement of the MD-11 is postponed.
But, Boeing is getting hit hard by the Corona virus....
 
tvh
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:08 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I'm happy that the retirement of the MD-11 is postponed.
But, Boeing is getting hit hard by the Corona virus....


If they can change there widebody production to two years of freighters and after than return to passenger aircraft, it might work out fine.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:53 pm

tvh wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I'm happy that the retirement of the MD-11 is postponed.
But, Boeing is getting hit hard by the Corona virus....


If they can change there widebody production to two years of freighters and after than return to passenger aircraft, it might work out fine.


There might be some more interest in freighters now, but I don't think it will last.
The demand for freighters is higher because passenger aircraft are grounded.
The total amount of freight that is being transport hasn't risen that much, if any.

Airlines know this, so it makes no sense for them to invest in a big amount of freighters.
So, the few freighters that are being ordered is nice for Boeing, but it won't solve their problem.
 
airbazar
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:06 pm

vfw614 wrote:
If so, they must expect an extremely long period of reduced longhaul passenger traffic and the resulting lack of belly cargo capacity.

Or they are just expecting a huge government bail out and it would not be very good optics for them to take that money and buy "American made" aircraft.
I know the 777F is also American made but freighters are not as public as passenger aircraft and Airbus has nothing in their portfolio that matches it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:25 pm

Or they learned something from the crisis and that is that LH Cargo and LH Pax complement each other.
 
stylo777
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:36 pm

How likely is it that they completely ditch the 777X and transform the orders to 77F as required as well as more 787's?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:48 pm

The article says LH expects it to take 3 years before things go back to normal.

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LHA320
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:11 pm

stylo777 wrote:
How likely is it that they completely ditch the 777X and transform the orders to 77F as required as well as more 787's?


What's likely and what's not is very difficult to measure in the current crisis! But if you ask me, I think the 787-10 is worth more than a consideration when it comes to the Trans atlantic network of the whole LH Group. With A350-1000 covering the trunk routes once the 747-8 comes up for replacement. A mixed A350/787 fleet in addition with the A333 would cover the whole long haul network nicely without need for the 777X imho. But I'm not in fleet planning, so no one asks me... I wouldn't bet on too many 77F conversions tough as the freight market is a difficult one and the current demand should not be overestimated as it is unlikely to stay that way, once the crisis is over.
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stylo777
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:44 pm

With an age range between 5-8 years the 747-8 is nowhere near the replacement time and with currently 19 units in the fleet, it will somehow become the "next 340-600" case.
So far, LH is very happy with their A350-900's which compares to the 787-10. An A350-1000 as a gap filler between 747-8 and A350-900 is probably too expensive. When mentioning the 787's in my previous post, I was actually thinking about the 787-9 as a solution for the 343/346 issue: similar capacity but superior economics and range.
Last but not least, I don't think LH needs the 777X and was of that opinion even before corona.
 
marcelh
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:48 pm

stylo777 wrote:
An A350-1000 as a gap filler between 747-8 and A350-900 is probably too expensive.


Airbus might do Lufthansa an offer they can't refuse...
 
mcg
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:52 pm

How long would it take Boeing to deliver (say) 3 777F's to LH if they had contracts signed today?
 
787X30
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:52 pm

stylo777 wrote:
... I was actually thinking about the 787-9 as a solution for the 343/346 issue: similar capacity but superior economics and range. ...

The 789 will very much be the 343 of the future. 744/346 will be covered by 779 (selected) or 351 (deselected for now).

To date, there are 13 779 for 13 744, and seven more for seven 346 in a flat case or >7 346 in a bear case. In the super bear case of current make said seven more might cover all 17 346, if not even fewer than seven from being swapped for 77X.

stylo777 wrote:
... An A350-1000 as a gap filler between 747-8 and A350-900 is probably too expensive. ...

Huh?
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:28 pm

Given a few of their frames have already rolled off the assembly line coupled with the 10 billion euros of government injection from the german government the airline is getting, they should be fine to be able to pick it up when its ready toward the middle of next year when the industry will be in a much better cash position anyway. They shouldn't bother moving to the 777F.
 
hooverman
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:21 pm

Opus99 wrote:
They shouldn't bother moving to the 777F.

LOL. You know the airline is in a crisis, right?
The government aid is not for buying planes they cannot use right now or in the near furure.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:50 pm

hooverman wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
They shouldn't bother moving to the 777F.

LOL. You know the airline is in a crisis, right?
The government aid is not for buying planes they cannot use right now or in the near furure.

But why incur the cost of cancelling when your frames are already being built When you are actually getting that kind of cash. Secondly I understand they are in a crisis but that 10 billion euros is cannot just be for survival, they know what they are doing. How many airlines have gotten 10 billion euros? Let’s be real. And they will need them in the future. Will they fly the 380 and 747 forever? When demand comes back they will be use for them. Singapore airlines that got 13 billion dollars said that it will be used for BOTH survival and growth. Come on
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:24 pm

Opus99 wrote:
They shouldn't bother moving to the 777F.

Seeing how the 747-8F is reaching the end of it's production the best freighter that will be available as new build is the 777F. It is a little smaller than the 747-8F but is a closer match to the MD-11. The 767 is too narrow to handle containers the 747-8F, MD-11 and 777 can. :old:
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oldJoe
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:29 pm

Opus99 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
They shouldn't bother moving to the 777F.

LOL. You know the airline is in a crisis, right?
The government aid is not for buying planes they cannot use right now or in the near furure.

But why incur the cost of cancelling when your frames are already being built When you are actually getting that kind of cash. Secondly I understand they are in a crisis but that 10 billion euros is cannot just be for survival, they know what they are doing. How many airlines have gotten 10 billion euros? Let’s be real. And they will need them in the future. Will they fly the 380 and 747 forever? When demand comes back they will be use for them. Singapore airlines that got 13 billion dollars said that it will be used for BOTH survival and growth. Come on

where to start ........
- How many 777-9`s for LH have already been build ?
- Every airline is in a crisis. LH stated that they lose 1 million € per hour. Do the math when the 10 billion are burned.
- Maybe they will need them in the future. LH also stated that some of their parked widebodies return to service ( if ) in one or one and a half year
- How many airlines will get 10 billions ? You named one yourself
- No they won`t fly A380 or B744 for ever. What about the 747-8I ?
- When will demand comes back and how much is a question nobody can answer.
- If Singapore Airlines with a fleet of ~ 140 and LH ~300 get the same money , who do you think has the better position ? Crew for ~ 160 aircraft is not for free !
Yes , come on
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: Lufthansa To Delay 777Xs For 777Fs - MD-11F Retirement Postponed

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:39 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
LOL. You know the airline is in a crisis, right?
The government aid is not for buying planes they cannot use right now or in the near furure.

But why incur the cost of cancelling when your frames are already being built When you are actually getting that kind of cash. Secondly I understand they are in a crisis but that 10 billion euros is cannot just be for survival, they know what they are doing. How many airlines have gotten 10 billion euros? Let’s be real. And they will need them in the future. Will they fly the 380 and 747 forever? When demand comes back they will be use for them. Singapore airlines that got 13 billion dollars said that it will be used for BOTH survival and growth. Come on

where to start ........
- How many 777-9`s for LH have already been build ?
- Every airline is in a crisis. LH stated that they lose 1 million € per hour. Do the math when the 10 billion are burned.
- Maybe they will need them in the future. LH also stated that some of their parked widebodies return to service ( if ) in one or one and a half year
- How many airlines will get 10 billions ? You named one yourself
- No they won`t fly A380 or B744 for ever. What about the 747-8I ?
- When will demand comes back and how much is a question nobody can answer.
- If Singapore Airlines with a fleet of ~ 140 and LH ~300 get the same money , who do you think has the better position ? Crew for ~ 160 aircraft is not for free !
Yes , come on

You make very good points but okay. The US gets about 50 billion USD for the whole industry which falls to about 14 billion euros if you divide only across the major US 3 airlines and each of them are about double the size of LH. So that’s just that. And honestly I’m all for LH receiving state aid they definitely deserve it. But I think about two of their first frames have already been built with wings etc. So they may as well take those. Deferring the rest maybe but then again Boeing did delay the aircraft so they have some ground to stand on. But for me. I think 10 billion is not for survival alone and if they’re burning through it that quickly they need to do a lot more to reduce their cash burn especially if they’re getting payroll support especially if they’ve burnt through 4.5 billion already.

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