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Corpsnerd09
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WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:54 pm

Looks like WN asked their union for concessions and the TWU has publicly responded with a giant middle finger:

April 16, 2020
Gary Kelly, President
Southwest Airlines
2702 Love Field Drive
Dallas, Texas 75235
Dear Gary,
I’ve been informed that last week Southwest requested that the Transport Workers Union
(TWU) represented Locals, 550, 555, 556 and 557 open and/or negotiate concessions into our
members’ contracts. While we certainly understand that Southwest management wants to
explore how the company moves forward, the TWU has no interest in regressing from our
current negotiated contracts. We have no interest in concessions. We have fought for years
to improve our members’ livelihoods and we will robustly continue to do so.
If the company is interested in discussing a seniority based voluntary early out, a paid leave
program, or other non concessionary options, which present our members with voluntary
opportunities - we are certainly willing to listen. We believe the long term savings from these
types of voluntary actions can easily exceed the cost savings you recently proposed.
Furthermore, the grant money Southwest Airlines is receiving from the CARES Act now
provides you with the necessary time to rethink your ill-advised proffer of contract
concessions. On balance, we believe Southwest Airlines is the best positioned and most
financially viable airline in the United States and to make a concessionary demand of the TWU
is totally unwarranted.
The Transport Workers Union of America, and our Local union leaders at Southwest, stand
ready to discuss our proposed non concessionary solutions. Let us know if you want to pursue
that conversation.
Respectfully,
John Samuelsen Mike Mayes


Letter can be found at:
http://www.twu555.org/

You know things are bleak when WN is wanting to reopen contract negotiations.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:56 pm

Look for the WARN Act notice to furlough a bunch of TWU employees sixty days before 10/1/2020.

What the was US Airways rallying cry? 'Full pay to the last day!'
 
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airportugal310
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:38 pm

I don't understand why people think the CARES Act is some form of savior money...it really isn't...just punts the inevitable down the road a few extra months
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
strfyr51
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:42 pm

It will remain to be seen just how much WN is serious about cuts. I would say they may be tettering on a Pin before the TWU takes any cuts so they may just have to go for Layoffs and downsizing after the GOVT, date has passed.
 
COSPN
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:55 pm

Full pay to the last day ...stay strong brothers
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:27 pm

It's not necessary for WN to ask for permanent cuts at this point when we know that business will eventually pick up next year. The unions need to be very careful about any permanent concession talk. The airlines may be trying to leverage worker insecurity at the moment to reopen contracts. Once the airlines get what they want, it could permanently change the compensation structure of CBAs, and the unions would face months if not years of acrimony trying to get their money back when things are good. Too many workers at other airlines are still reeling from the cuts they took during the bankruptcy period.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:17 pm

As technically a member of the TWU, I couldn’t care less. I’m not anti-union, but some of these people should appreciate they even have a job still. These airlines can only do so much to stay profitable. It’s unfortunately a tough business. Downsizing and eventual layoffs will happen. Southwest management will do all they can to avoid such, but time will tell.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
Flaps
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:59 pm

Sounds a bit like the tone and language of the IAM at Eastern. That worked out well for them.......
 
Boof02671
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:03 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Look for the WARN Act notice to furlough a bunch of TWU employees sixty days before 10/1/2020.

What the was US Airways rallying cry? 'Full pay to the last day!'

Um no we survived.
 
Boof02671
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:07 am

Flaps wrote:
Sounds a bit like the tone and language of the IAM at Eastern. That worked out well for them.......

You should really know it wasn’t the IAM’s. Lorenzo had EA taken away from him and he was banned from the industry

https://youtu.be/uRbfmLC_Nnc

https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0
 
toltommy
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:49 am

usdcaguy wrote:
It's not necessary for WN to ask for permanent cuts at this point when we know that business will eventually pick up next year.


Really? We "know" this, huh? What's your date that you expect that the industry will be fully recovered? Next year? Hardly. We haven't even scratched the surface on the damage this virus caused. To think we will be recovered next year is not rational. That being said, I hope that WN and the TWU will work together to find a way to protect both the company and the jobs that fall under this contract.

AFAIK we've only seen the union's response. Have we actually seen the letter from the company and what they asked for?
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:50 am

Honestly Southwest can cut money in a lot of other places. I.e their huge headquarters staff, their inept way of provisioning there aircraft and absolute waste on board the aircraft with supplies, lack of carts, and unnecessary overstocked pantry’s on the planes. There schedule planning and overall operations need to be looked at way before asking front line employees for concessions. Furthermore WN is way to top heavy, there is Vice President, Director or manager for all sorts of nonsense. Let the ripping begin!!!
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
N983AN
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:03 am

IAM 142 is well experienced in concessionary bargaining during the serial bankruptcies at USAIR and TWA, they have never met a concession they didn't like and ultimately provide the company.

Samuelson is living in denial. He still hasn't figured out the airlines aren't the same as the MTA and NYC officials.
 
WNagent310
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:08 am

Member of TWU 555 representing LAX. Talking to our local and district reps we’ve come to the agreement that no concession talks should even be considered until CARES ACT money expires in at the end of September. Remember that these grants protect our members payroll until that day. And until then, no talks and I’m glad our union has reiterated that to our members. We have more than done our part to help save the company. Many of our agents are saving the company precious money in a variety of ways. The ETO(Emergency Time Off) program offers partial pay to both Full and Part-Time employees who want to take the next two months off and retain all their benefits and seniority. Many agents including myself have done advanced full and/or partial LWOPs (Leave without Pay) to help the company in some capacity. I’m currently taking 3-4 days off each work week to help the company save cash anyway I can. I’m taking a hit financially to help my company survive so has many other agents within IAM, TWU, and SWAPA. So I take it as insulting why they wanna look into concessions this early. We put our lives and our families lives at risk everytime we go to work. So we can fulfill the schedule put out to us.

And I should say even with this news. I am still confident where we are financially short term. Perhaps they should take a look at cutting in other ways especially at the upper half of management. We have done more than enough as union members to sacrifice for the survival of our company.
 
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:14 am

WNagent310 wrote:
Member of TWU 555 representing LAX. Talking to our local and district reps we’ve come to the agreement that no concession talks should even be considered until CARES ACT money expires in at the end of September. Remember that these grants protect our members payroll until that day. And until then, no talks and I’m glad our union has reiterated that to our members. We have more than done our part to help save the company. Many of our agents are saving the company precious money in a variety of ways. The ETO(Emergency Time Off) program offers partial pay to both Full and Part-Time employees who want to take the next two months off and retain all their benefits and seniority. Many agents including myself have done advanced full and/or partial LWOPs (Leave without Pay) to help the company in some capacity. I’m currently taking 3-4 days off each work week to help the company save cash anyway I can. I’m taking a hit financially to help my company survive so has many other agents within IAM, TWU, and SWAPA. So I take it as insulting why they wanna look into concessions this early. We put our lives and our families lives at risk everytime we go to work. So we can fulfill the schedule put out to us.

And I should say even with this news. I am still confident where we are financially short term. Perhaps they should take a look at cutting in other ways especially at the upper half of management. We have done more than enough as union members to sacrifice for the survival of our company.


Very well said!
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
SXDFC
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:24 am

WNagent310 wrote:
Member of TWU 555 representing LAX. Talking to our local and district reps we’ve come to the agreement that no concession talks should even be considered until CARES ACT money expires in at the end of September. Remember that these grants protect our members payroll until that day. And until then, no talks and I’m glad our union has reiterated that to our members. We have more than done our part to help save the company. Many of our agents are saving the company precious money in a variety of ways. The ETO(Emergency Time Off) program offers partial pay to both Full and Part-Time employees who want to take the next two months off and retain all their benefits and seniority. Many agents including myself have done advanced full and/or partial LWOPs (Leave without Pay) to help the company in some capacity. I’m currently taking 3-4 days off each work week to help the company save cash anyway I can. I’m taking a hit financially to help my company survive so has many other agents within IAM, TWU, and SWAPA. So I take it as insulting why they wanna look into concessions this early. We put our lives and our families lives at risk everytime we go to work. So we can fulfill the schedule put out to us.

And I should say even with this news. I am still confident where we are financially short term. Perhaps they should take a look at cutting in other ways especially at the upper half of management. We have done more than enough as union members to sacrifice for the survival of our company.



Well said my friend..

Signed. Former 555 member and current 556 member..
 
F9Animal
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:33 am

I am pro union. However, there comes a point and time when sitting down and having serious discussion is important. Especially now. If the company I work for asked to sit down with my union, I would no doubt support it.

I am disappointed that the TWU isn't even willing to really hash it out, and let the company provide it's case. The airlines are literally dying right now. I see absolutely every need for all labor groups to consider that as of right now, temporary concessions will help slow the bleed. I would also consider my coworkers and those with less seniority in making a decision about concessions. All hands should be on deck right now. Seriously, the airline has no choice at this point but to layoff to levels that are sustainable. If taking concessions can save some jobs, then why not?

6 months ago if my company asked our Union to reopen and consider concessions, I would have raised my middle finger. But today? I don't think alot of us have many choices, especially with the transportation industry. Hope the TWU at least will sit down and let the company show it's case.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
alasizon
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:58 am

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
Honestly Southwest can cut money in a lot of other places. I.e their huge headquarters staff, their inept way of provisioning there aircraft and absolute waste on board the aircraft with supplies, lack of carts, and unnecessary overstocked pantry’s on the planes.


Given they've already cut their provisioning down to nill, your point on that is moot.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
nclarks
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:25 am

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
Honestly Southwest can cut money in a lot of other places. I.e their huge headquarters staff, their inept way of provisioning there aircraft and absolute waste on board the aircraft with supplies, lack of carts, and unnecessary overstocked pantry’s on the planes. There schedule planning and overall operations need to be looked at way before asking front line employees for concessions. Furthermore WN is way to top heavy, there is Vice President, Director or manager for all sorts of nonsense. Let the ripping begin!!!


when things are normal, we need the stock we have because we are not provisioned every leg and sometimes do 3-4 full legs short and long and run out of many things on board before we make it to a provisioning city, sometimes the aircraft will also overnight in a non-provisioning city so it makes it even harder. so not sure BMWdrvr75 what you are talking about in this aspect.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:51 am

F9Animal wrote:
I am pro union. However, there comes a point and time when sitting down and having serious discussion is important. Especially now. If the company I work for asked to sit down with my union, I would no doubt support it.

I am disappointed that the TWU isn't even willing to really hash it out, and let the company provide it's case. The airlines are literally dying right now. I see absolutely every need for all labor groups to consider that as of right now, temporary concessions will help slow the bleed. I would also consider my coworkers and those with less seniority in making a decision about concessions. All hands should be on deck right now. Seriously, the airline has no choice at this point but to layoff to levels that are sustainable. If taking concessions can save some jobs, then why not?

6 months ago if my company asked our Union to reopen and consider concessions, I would have raised my middle finger. But today? I don't think alot of us have many choices, especially with the transportation industry. Hope the TWU at least will sit down and let the company show it's case.


Because when you sit down and give them concessions, they still go to bankruptcy. So now the bankruptcy court further slashes your contract, and in the end, the only winners are the executives who get golden parachutes. Full pay until the last day, is the only way to go.
From my cold, dead hands
 
argentinevol98
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:00 am

Speaking as neither an airline employee or union member; if I were a union employee at WN I would take the same stance at least for now. It is clear that were are on the verge of some kind of severe recession but it is completely unclear so far just how severe and how long we are talking. WN has been profitable for decades and is set to receive quite a lot of money from the government to remain in operation. That should last a decent amount of time, perhaps long enough for demand to pick up enough that concessions will be unnecessary to keep the airline profitable in the long-run. WN is not in a position where it will be gone tomorrow or even next year. If concessions prove to be unnecessary I would be rather mad at myself as WN union dues-paying employee if I had accepted concessions so early on when things still weren't clear.

Now, perhaps the crisis lasts so long and is so severe that the economy gets hammered to the point that the outlook for the airline industry turns so negative that even with bailout money a traditionally profitable airline juggernaut looks like it could face liquidation or at the least severe downsizing. If that turns out to be the case, I would, in a WN union employee's place, perhaps consider concessions. It would make sense if it was the only way to truly keep my job.

However, it doesn't appear that we're there yet and I wouldn't jump the gun as a WN employee to satisfy management. It would seem to be a losing strategy. Concessions once given (in really any industry) are rarely returned to the employees. That's what seems to me from the outside at least. I might be totally wrong about several things here and if I am I would greatly appreciate being corrected. Many members are far more informed on either side of this than I am :) .
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
Corpsnerd09
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:00 am

toltommy wrote:

AFAIK we've only seen the union's response. Have we actually seen the letter from the company and what they asked for?


I don't believe the company approached them publicly and likely not by letter either. This is a union power play by Samuelsen to stir up the membership (at TWU and by proxy the IAM and SWAPA, too) by letting everyone know exactly what has been said. I'm certain the other union groups got similar requests and TWU just hit first.
 
flyboy730
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:03 am

1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.
 
reltney
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:30 am

Best part is most SWA fans did not know SWA is one of the most unionized airlines in the US.. when the idiot money people use to talk how SW makes money is because Low labor costs and of the lack of labor unions... I use to laugh on how much they did not know. Too funny. They are a standard legacy airline(yes they are in the definition and you cannot change it.).

Cheers
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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alasizon
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:32 am

flyboy730 wrote:
1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.


I don't see the issue in getting discussions going. If management thinks concessions are needed then discussion is a perfectly acceptable step. Its not like the TWU and WN will easily come to an agreement. Waiting until September 30th to start any sort of discussion is going to put the company and the employees in a worse off position.

WN already is offering an emergency time off package at the same levels of compensation as AA so its not like there hasn't been an offer of time off but the reality is their staffing is still way over
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flyboy730
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:32 am

alasizon wrote:
flyboy730 wrote:
1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.


I don't see the issue in getting discussions going. If management thinks concessions are needed then discussion is a perfectly acceptable step. Its not like the TWU and WN will easily come to an agreement. Waiting until September 30th to start any sort of discussion is going to put the company and the employees in a worse off position.

WN already is offering an emergency time off package at the same levels of compensation as AA so its not like there hasn't been an offer of time off but the reality is their staffing is still way over


What sort of discussion can really be had?

There’s currently no way to predict when this will stabilize, what demand is going to be, what the company’s finances will be, how much of a possible concession, how long will the concessions be needed, etc.

Additionally, if the situation gets to the point that concessions are necessary, which it is not there currently. They need to be for a determined time period, we must be returned to status quo immediately upon stability, and then paid back immediately when profits return to a determined level.

I’ve been flying commercially for 27 years now, and I understand how these things work. A work group accepts concessions to save the company, then said work group gets left hanging with the concessions and has to fight like hell to get even small fractions back.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:20 am

At other airlines, management has in the past extracted concessions from labor groups with promises of restoring things as soon as the company returned to profitability. When profitability returns, management gives themselves raises and bonuses while telling the work groups they are too poor to restore what was given up.

Usually, money and pay rates are easier for unions to get back when good times return. Work rules and benefits are very difficult if not impossible.

When unions now look at management concession proposals, they have a long history of management actions throughout the industry to look at to guide them.

Other than forcing through concessions in chapter 11, I think the only way unions will agree to concessions this time around is if they come with contractual provisions to ensure that pre-concession pay and benefits returns once the good times return.

I think airline management overall will be very careful how they approach things this time around. I wouldn't be surprised if layoffs are utilized more this time than concessionary measures. This may mean more workers on the street but when things do recover, it will mean that furloughed workers will have a good job to come back to and long term labor relation issues will be mitigated.

Airlines have spent a good portion of the last decade trying to heal from the pre-merger era of poor labor relations. They will be hesitant to give that up.

Southwest has had good times when other airlines struggled. This time around is different and the first time that Southwest has faced major financial problems. This is a bit of uncharted territory for them. I imagine that there will be a learning curve for both management and unions in dealing with this. A big part of the Southwest success story has been their company culture. If they get the labor relations part wrong with this downturn, they will end up just like the other legacy airlines and their cultural advantage will be gone. They need to be more careful with how they approach this going forward.
 
DualQual
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:15 am

Anything given now will just be on top of what is taken later.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
Antarius
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:24 am

It's amazing how delusional airline employees here are. It's like, they live in an alternate reality of grandstanding TWU speeches and market conditions are just a distraction.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Antarius
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:29 am

flyboy730 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
flyboy730 wrote:
1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.


I don't see the issue in getting discussions going. If management thinks concessions are needed then discussion is a perfectly acceptable step. Its not like the TWU and WN will easily come to an agreement. Waiting until September 30th to start any sort of discussion is going to put the company and the employees in a worse off position.

WN already is offering an emergency time off package at the same levels of compensation as AA so its not like there hasn't been an offer of time off but the reality is their staffing is still way over


What sort of discussion can really be had?

There’s currently no way to predict when this will stabilize, what demand is going to be, what the company’s finances will be, how much of a possible concession, how long will the concessions be needed, etc.

Additionally, if the situation gets to the point that concessions are necessary, which it is not there currently. They need to be for a determined time period, we must be returned to status quo immediately upon stability, and then paid back immediately when profits return to a determined level.

I’ve been flying commercially for 27 years now, and I understand how these things work. A work group accepts concessions to save the company, then said work group gets left hanging with the concessions and has to fight like hell to get even small fractions back.


True leadership plans for things, losers react. My org have mapped out at least 10 different scenarios in terms of cash flow projections and have high level plans for each of them.

The reason you discuss is to be prepared. Just watch, September comes around and things aren't happening, you'll get more idiot grandstanding and no plan remotely in place.

No one said a commitment is needed. But closing your ears and yelling "fake news" is not productive either.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 773
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:57 am

WNagent310 wrote:
Member of TWU 555 representing LAX. Talking to our local and district reps we’ve come to the agreement that no concession talks should even be considered until CARES ACT money expires in at the end of September. Remember that these grants protect our members payroll until that day. And until then, no talks and I’m glad our union has reiterated that to our members. We have more than done our part to help save the company. Many of our agents are saving the company precious money in a variety of ways. The ETO(Emergency Time Off) program offers partial pay to both Full and Part-Time employees who want to take the next two months off and retain all their benefits and seniority. Many agents including myself have done advanced full and/or partial LWOPs (Leave without Pay) to help the company in some capacity. I’m currently taking 3-4 days off each work week to help the company save cash anyway I can. I’m taking a hit financially to help my company survive so has many other agents within IAM, TWU, and SWAPA. So I take it as insulting why they wanna look into concessions this early. We put our lives and our families lives at risk everytime we go to work. So we can fulfill the schedule put out to us.

And I should say even with this news. I am still confident where we are financially short term. Perhaps they should take a look at cutting in other ways especially at the upper half of management. We have done more than enough as union members to sacrifice for the survival of our company.

The history of Southwest is that the employees and management work together in tough times to survive. At a later date, the company gives back, in some for, 9-11, 2008, Etc...

This is far worse a situation though, and Southwest has some of the highest paid staff in the Industry, including ramp, support, and front line. This had become an Achilles Heel for WN, even before this.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:09 am

flyboy730 wrote:
1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.

1. The stock buyback comments are as ignorant as they come. This isn’t a typical recession that can be seen down the road. This was sudden, almost over night. Of course they’re going to buy back stock in good times.
2) You’re right, so maybe keeping cash in the bank is a good way to prepare for long term pain.
3)Which is why they are okay right now, but not come October.
4)See #2, and cash in the bank is great, but not when is going out faster than it’s coming in.
5)Sounds to me an employee above has taken voluntary leave options that you claim are missing.


Fine, don’t take concessions, just hurts the airlines and your jobs in the long run. Will never get the stubborn bull headedness of unions. I get protecting the worker, but there is nothing to protect when the company goes under. You just have a bunch of guys standing around looking like idiots.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
flyboy730
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:01 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
flyboy730 wrote:
1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.

1. The stock buyback comments are as ignorant as they come. This isn’t a typical recession that can be seen down the road. This was sudden, almost over night. Of course they’re going to buy back stock in good times.
2) You’re right, so maybe keeping cash in the bank is a good way to prepare for long term pain.
3)Which is why they are okay right now, but not come October.
4)See #2, and cash in the bank is great, but not when is going out faster than it’s coming in.
5)Sounds to me an employee above has taken voluntary leave options that you claim are missing.


Fine, don’t take concessions, just hurts the airlines and your jobs in the long run. Will never get the stubborn bull headedness of unions. I get protecting the worker, but there is nothing to protect when the company goes under. You just have a bunch of guys standing around looking like idiots.


First, most all of what I write isn’t specific to SWA but, all work groups at each carrier.

Once they exhaust a large portion of their cash and bailout, if the situation dictates concessions, then we negotiate. It is not our responsibility to pad a war chest of cash for the company. If they wanted a bigger war chest, then they’ve had decades of profit in which they could have built it. Because nobody knows how things will look in 1, 3, or 5 months from now, there’s no reason to give concessions. Come October, if negotiations need to happen, then so be it. Their voluntary leave isn’t what guys in my situation are looking for. We have ~250-300 guys like myself that will gladly leave if they make a fair and equitable. I only have a little over 4 years left, so if they get tight, they need to get to working with us 60+ year olds. The “stubborn bull headedness” comes from many years of management dishonesty and greed industry wide. On the pilot side of the house, which is where I’m at. We worked at early 90’s wages up until just the past few years. If concessions become necessary, then they must come with contractual limitations because guys don’t need to be fighting for what they achieved 5 and 10 years ago. In regards to furloughs, if it gets to that point, then our wages are not going to change that. Additionally, furloughs are not cheap either. A furlough only makes financial sense if it’s going to be more than 12 months. If furloughs happen, it will only be temporary and guys would rather have a good job when they come back.
 
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malaysia
Posts: 2661
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:26 am

reltney wrote:
Best part is most SWA fans did not know SWA is one of the most unionized airlines in the US.. when the idiot money people use to talk how SW makes money is because Low labor costs and of the lack of labor unions... I use to laugh on how much they did not know. Too funny. They are a standard legacy airline(yes they are in the definition and you cannot change it.).

Cheers


And interesting how Supervisors are allowed to due some ramp work in the TWU contract, I think you cannot do that at AA and UA?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1990
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:41 am

N983AN wrote:
IAM 142 is well experienced in concessionary bargaining during the serial bankruptcies at USAIR and TWA, they have never met a concession they didn't like and ultimately provide the company.

Samuelson is living in denial. He still hasn't figured out the airlines aren't the same as the MTA and NYC officials.

Once again an ad hominem attack. We at US voted down the first concessionary package during the first bankruptcy and we had our contract abrogated one the second. That’s not agreeing.

And you all with the TWU took concessions outside of bankruptcy. Look in the mirror before trying to attack others.
 
waltz1974
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:35 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:06 pm

I like this infographic that summarizes the state of SWA. https://ibb.co/yF5TWzF
Employees look to be funding managements greed. Anyone could have run an airline the size of SWA during the boom times and been successful. Management is around to make long term big decisions for the success of the company and its shareholders not provide short term gains for the trolls. Taking money from the taxpayers should have voided senior executive contracts as well as the board. Risking the future of the business on one key supplier and the tax payer bailout shows that the vision that the board and executives have is not one for the long term.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:23 pm

I have always been astounded that any number of airline workers, WN less than others, look at customers as some sort of semi-necessary nuisance. They don't seem to connect the the economic necessity of that cash flow from today's full planes for next week's check to go through. I was a member of a very highly paid union in the 50s and 60s. Our pension were fully funded, but companies had the right to lay us off the day there was no more work. While a lot of us had dim views of a few of the companies we worked for, we also knew that getting the job done was how we got paid. (we were AFL, not CIO, although the two are now joined)
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reltney
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:10 pm

malaysia wrote:
reltney wrote:
Best part is most SWA fans did not know SWA is one of the most unionized airlines in the US.. when the idiot money people use to talk how SW makes money is because Low labor costs and of the lack of labor unions... I use to laugh on how much they did not know. Too funny. They are a standard legacy airline(yes they are in the definition and you cannot change it.).

Cheers


And interesting how Supervisors are allowed to due some ramp work in the TWU contract, I think you cannot do that at AA and UA?


That’s good. Did not know that. No doubt they couldn’t do that at aa and ua.
Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
WNagent310
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:27 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
flyboy730 wrote:
1) SWA has purchased ~11 billion in sock buybacks.
2) Nobody currently knows how this is going to play out between now and 9/30/2020.
3) SWA has accepted ~3.5 billion in bailout money.
4) They have cash in the bank.
5) They went straight to concessions without offering voluntary options first.

I agree with the union rejecting the offer. After all, my job is to fly, the mechanic’s job is to fix, and management’s job is finances. Once management exhaust all other avenues, and if the situation is still dire, then we can all have discussions.

1. The stock buyback comments are as ignorant as they come. This isn’t a typical recession that can be seen down the road. This was sudden, almost over night. Of course they’re going to buy back stock in good times.
2) You’re right, so maybe keeping cash in the bank is a good way to prepare for long term pain.
3)Which is why they are okay right now, but not come October.
4)See #2, and cash in the bank is great, but not when is going out faster than it’s coming in.
5)Sounds to me an employee above has taken voluntary leave options that you claim are missing.


Fine, don’t take concessions, just hurts the airlines and your jobs in the long run. Will never get the stubborn bull headedness of unions. I get protecting the worker, but there is nothing to protect when the company goes under. You just have a bunch of guys standing around looking like idiots.


I think we can both agree on the fact that we both want the airline to survive. I say again, many of us employees have gone above and beyond to help the company save money. With voluntary leaves either with partial or even no pay. What I am saying is that concessions should be an absolute last resort until we know where the market and travel demand is after the CARES ACT expires. The trimming of the fat should be with management first then come down to us with concessions. It makes no sense to have 30-40 mid level managers in one station and one not taking any leave or some sort while us agents are making sacrifices already to help save the company money. Start at the top, then come down to us when no more options are of avail. It’s too early for concessions when we don’t know yet where our market is as of yet. It’ll take years to potentially get what we will have lost due to pre-mature concessions.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:27 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
IAM 142 is well experienced in concessionary bargaining during the serial bankruptcies at USAIR and TWA, they have never met a concession they didn't like and ultimately provide the company.

Samuelson is living in denial. He still hasn't figured out the airlines aren't the same as the MTA and NYC officials.

Once again an ad hominem attack. We at US voted down the first concessionary package during the first bankruptcy and we had our contract abrogated one the second. That’s not agreeing.

And you all with the TWU took concessions outside of bankruptcy. Look in the mirror before trying to attack others.


Won't speak to USAIR but I was EXNWA and the union you defend the IAM was our AMT's union in 1993 the company came looking for concessions after Al Checchi and the Marriott execs did a leveraged buyout of NWA and the IAM was all for it we voted it down and the IAM kept bringing it back for a vote until it passed then the execs gave themselves a nice raise as a pat on the back for themselves for ramming that concession down our throats. So to the SWA peeps I say do not give in to any concessions the company has no problem dragging out contracts 7 years in the best of times.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:56 pm

The opening salvos in what should be an expected battle. My experience with these types of negotiations is that those on each side are pretty tough birds. I wouldn't expect much more than public shouting and private positioning through the summer, and then serious discussions as the deadline approaches and each side has cultivated a season full of data to advance their cause.

And a big thanks to all those Southwest front-line employees who have made my travels such a pleasure over the years. Looking forward to seeing you again soon.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7936
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:15 pm

Antarius wrote:
flyboy730 wrote:
alasizon wrote:

I don't see the issue in getting discussions going. If management thinks concessions are needed then discussion is a perfectly acceptable step. Its not like the TWU and WN will easily come to an agreement. Waiting until September 30th to start any sort of discussion is going to put the company and the employees in a worse off position.

WN already is offering an emergency time off package at the same levels of compensation as AA so its not like there hasn't been an offer of time off but the reality is their staffing is still way over


What sort of discussion can really be had?

There’s currently no way to predict when this will stabilize, what demand is going to be, what the company’s finances will be, how much of a possible concession, how long will the concessions be needed, etc.

Additionally, if the situation gets to the point that concessions are necessary, which it is not there currently. They need to be for a determined time period, we must be returned to status quo immediately upon stability, and then paid back immediately when profits return to a determined level.

I’ve been flying commercially for 27 years now, and I understand how these things work. A work group accepts concessions to save the company, then said work group gets left hanging with the concessions and has to fight like hell to get even small fractions back.


True leadership plans for things, losers react. My org have mapped out at least 10 different scenarios in terms of cash flow projections and have high level plans for each of them.

The reason you discuss is to be prepared. Just watch, September comes around and things aren't happening, you'll get more idiot grandstanding and no plan remotely in place.

No one said a commitment is needed. But closing your ears and yelling "fake news" is not productive either.

This, exactly.

There is time to scenario plan for multiple different outcomes. The "do nothing" because "we have no idea" isn't really a good answer. No one has to commit to anything at this point, but now sure is a good time to review the multitude of potential scenarios and develop potential action plans for the weeks and months ahead.
Its going to better to start figuring this stuff out while there are months ahead for everyone to plan versus waiting until the last minute to a point where now some options are no longer possible due to having less time to implement.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2838
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:24 pm

Corpsnerd09 wrote:
Looks like WN asked their union for concessions..............


How about a 100% pay cut for that pig Gary Kelly for starters. That would be a refreshing change.
 
777Mech
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:45 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
At other airlines, management has in the past extracted concessions from labor groups with promises of restoring things as soon as the company returned to profitability. When profitability returns, management gives themselves raises and bonuses while telling the work groups they are too poor to restore what was given up.

Usually, money and pay rates are easier for unions to get back when good times return. Work rules and benefits are very difficult if not impossible.

When unions now look at management concession proposals, they have a long history of management actions throughout the industry to look at to guide them.

Other than forcing through concessions in chapter 11, I think the only way unions will agree to concessions this time around is if they come with contractual provisions to ensure that pre-concession pay and benefits returns once the good times return.

I think airline management overall will be very careful how they approach things this time around. I wouldn't be surprised if layoffs are utilized more this time than concessionary measures. This may mean more workers on the street but when things do recover, it will mean that furloughed workers will have a good job to come back to and long term labor relation issues will be mitigated.

Airlines have spent a good portion of the last decade trying to heal from the pre-merger era of poor labor relations. They will be hesitant to give that up.

Southwest has had good times when other airlines struggled. This time around is different and the first time that Southwest has faced major financial problems. This is a bit of uncharted territory for them. I imagine that there will be a learning curve for both management and unions in dealing with this. A big part of the Southwest success story has been their company culture. If they get the labor relations part wrong with this downturn, they will end up just like the other legacy airlines and their cultural advantage will be gone. They need to be more careful with how they approach this going forward.


I couldn't agree more. All of the airlines burned that labor bridge years ago. Their true colors showed after 9/11, and they won't hesitate to do it again.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1473
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:49 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
At other airlines, management has in the past extracted concessions from labor groups with promises of restoring things as soon as the company returned to profitability. When profitability returns, management gives themselves raises and bonuses while telling the work groups they are too poor to restore what was given up.

Usually, money and pay rates are easier for unions to get back when good times return. Work rules and benefits are very difficult if not impossible.

When unions now look at management concession proposals, they have a long history of management actions throughout the industry to look at to guide them.

Other than forcing through concessions in chapter 11, I think the only way unions will agree to concessions this time around is if they come with contractual provisions to ensure that pre-concession pay and benefits returns once the good times return.

I think airline management overall will be very careful how they approach things this time around. I wouldn't be surprised if layoffs are utilized more this time than concessionary measures. This may mean more workers on the street but when things do recover, it will mean that furloughed workers will have a good job to come back to and long term labor relation issues will be mitigated.

Airlines have spent a good portion of the last decade trying to heal from the pre-merger era of poor labor relations. They will be hesitant to give that up.

Southwest has had good times when other airlines struggled. This time around is different and the first time that Southwest has faced major financial problems. This is a bit of uncharted territory for them. I imagine that there will be a learning curve for both management and unions in dealing with this. A big part of the Southwest success story has been their company culture. If they get the labor relations part wrong with this downturn, they will end up just like the other legacy airlines and their cultural advantage will be gone. They need to be more careful with how they approach this going forward.


+1 to all of that.

And tbh, the case for widespread (and hopefully short lived) layoffs will be easy to make. Companies also know that at some point demand will rebound to an extent, and they will need to ramp back up accordingly.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1742
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:58 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
KarlB737 wrote:
Corpsnerd09 wrote:
Looks like WN asked their union for concessions..............


How about a 100% pay cut for that pig Gary Kelly for starters. That would be a refreshing change.


And there's the rub, the upper floor with no skin in the game. Yes, stock buybacks in good times can be the norm. This time around it's been proven that stock buybacks were a maneuver that artificially increased stock prices, resulting in the stock price based executive compensation soaring at many of the carriers. Front line employees know this. With that knowledge and little or no shared skin loss in this episode, it's no wonder the union is immediately digging in. Add to that, they've been shown the negotiation process is now treated by many in management as something that's supposed to last for 2 or more years beyond contract term expiry dates. Concessions now, on top of what September may (or may not) bring could mean unnecessary losses that would/could take another decade of negitiations to get back, while the upper floor goes untouched. Too bad at SWA they have this environment now with "management", because it was so good for so many years when they had "Leadership". It's not Herb's place anymore.

Airline employees across the brands aren't going to give back easily what has taken over a decade to recover, knowing how reluctant management was to share the gains. (Delta's profit sharing excepted) I'm no cheerleader for the unions, and, the behaviors from upstairs haven't oozed with integrity and pro-employee, invest in people actions. Reap what you have sown.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
CanesFan
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:50 pm

Obviously, no airline could have predicted or planned for this type of situation brought about by the effects of Covid-19. However, the general perception among labor groups is that the airlines are in a far more vulnerable position than they should have been, thanks to the stock buybacks. Couple that with management's historical reluctance to restore what labor has given up, I would say concessions will be hard to come by this time around.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:39 pm

Antarius wrote:
It's amazing how delusional airline employees here are. It's like, they live in an alternate reality of grandstanding TWU speeches and market conditions are just a distraction.


Well, they saw similar things before. (Admittedly, pretty much no-one alive and in the labour pool saw as large a recession, short of a war, that is apparently upon us).
There is a finite amount of money that will come the way of the airline, over next few years, after all is said and done. How this money is divvied up is the rub. If employees' unions sign away part of this money now, as "concessions", the risk is, what's left is not enough to satisfy other claims (other variable costs, financing, executive compensation) and the company files Ch.11. Entering Chapter 11, unions expect their contracts to be readjusted downwards regardless; why lower the starting position?
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OneSexyL1011
Posts: 244
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:19 pm

Full pay until the last day and not a penny less unless it's voluntary accepted by individual emoyees. Too many unknowns 5.5 months from now. Take advantage of the CARES act and see how the market reacts after it has expired.

You give and inch and they will take a mile. Anything agreed after 9/30 is free game, but be sure nothing permanent. Give stipulations on rachet back provisions. Do not leave it to the company's descretion as they'll kick the can down the road for years.

A downsize is inevitable and right now we must put ourselves in the best financial situation we can until 10/1. The government has given us this time, not the company.

Hope for clear skies and tailwinds ahead fellow employees. We'll make it through this.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:04 pm

Just to be clear there are four locals that fall under the TWU International umbrella at Southwest. The letter referenced above is from the TWU International President

550 - Dispatchers
555- Ramp, Operations & Provisioning
556- Flight Attendants
557- Flight Crew Training Instructors

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