Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
roadrunner165
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:16 pm

How much did Southwest spend on stock buybacks during the flush years?

My Google skills aren’t great, but somewhere in the $10 billion range is what I found on a couple websites.

And those who don’t understand what stock buybacks are should really educate themselves. Before Regans deregulation era, they were essentially illegal.

Sounds like Southwest wants to privatize profits and socialize losses.
 
WNagent310
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:30 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Just to be clear there are four locals that fall under the TWU International umbrella at Southwest. The letter referenced above is from the TWU International President

550 - Dispatchers
555- Ramp, Operations & Provisioning
556- Flight Attendants
557- Flight Crew Training Instructors


Might I add that 555 also represents our Cargo Agents. Who I should say are working really hard these days. Lots more room on our aircraft for freight these days and we’ve upped the anti on exporting freight out of our biggest cargo hub which is LAX. Over the 40 or so daily departures we have, all of em are leaving heavy, 2-5k lbs of cargo on each flight is the new norm now for us at LAX. We’re also exploring the opportunity for cargo-only charters. Looking into where and how we would train and operate these flights as it’s all new to all of us agents.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14485
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 am

roadrunner165 wrote:
How much did Southwest spend on stock buybacks during the flush years?

My Google skills aren’t great, but somewhere in the $10 billion range is what I found on a couple websites.

And those who don’t understand what stock buybacks are should really educate themselves. Before Regans deregulation era, they were essentially illegal.

Sounds like Southwest wants to privatize profits and socialize losses.


If I invest money in WN and they do well as a result of my investment, why is it wrong for them to offer me my money back?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7283
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 am

Southwests saving grace in the last recession was the fuel hedges when fuel was sky rocketing. Thats not the case for this global turn down and fuel is pretty low right now.

I know the IAM has been vocal about the slave-like portions of the contract like mandatory OT on your day off and penalties if you decline it. When I talked to my union rep when I was a CSA i informed her that i researched it was illegal to force employees to work on their days off if the work schedule was contractually agreed upon. She contacted the lady from the union who said we waive that right for the ability to trade which is total BS. Im glad TWU is standing up to SWA. The TWU and IAM contracts are horrible and need to be re-negotiated. To illustrate my point, my mom did the same job for another airline with the same union at the same time as me and had a much better contract.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:13 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Just to be clear there are four locals that fall under the TWU International umbrella at Southwest. The letter referenced above is from the TWU International President

550 - Dispatchers
555- Ramp, Operations & Provisioning
556- Flight Attendants
557- Flight Crew Training Instructors


Someone will have to correct me as I'm not a WN insider but WN seems to have a decent relationship with the 550 and 555 locals but the relationship with the 556 local is pretty toxic from my understanding.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:28 am

Because when you sit down and give them concessions, they still go to bankruptcy. So now the bankruptcy court further slashes your contract, and in the end, the only winners are the executives who get golden parachutes. Full pay until the last day, is the only way to go.


Agreed. That's what happened in my industry (teacher strike). Just substitute Board of Trustees for Bankruptcy Court.

For everyone calling the employees, "delusional," or other things, understand what this is: a negotiating strategy. The union is standing up for its members proactively. I can guarantee you that if things become seriously dire around the time the bailout cash is exhausted, there will be talks between the union and the airlines. However, until that time is makes sense to protect the union's members and safeguard as much of their income as they can. I will say this, if management got rid of their own stock options and golden parachutes they'd like get a lot more traction on the concession issue. Negotiations involves a give and a take from both sides; it can't be unilateral.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2519
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:27 am

WNagent310 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Just to be clear there are four locals that fall under the TWU International umbrella at Southwest. The letter referenced above is from the TWU International President

550 - Dispatchers
555- Ramp, Operations & Provisioning
556- Flight Attendants
557- Flight Crew Training Instructors


Might I add that 555 also represents our Cargo Agents. Who I should say are working really hard these days. Lots more room on our aircraft for freight these days and we’ve upped the anti on exporting freight out of our biggest cargo hub which is LAX. Over the 40 or so daily departures we have, all of em are leaving heavy, 2-5k lbs of cargo on each flight is the new norm now for us at LAX. We’re also exploring the opportunity for cargo-only charters. Looking into where and how we would train and operate these flights as it’s all new to all of us agents.


my apologies, I definitely forgot about cargo

alasizon wrote:
Someone will have to correct me as I'm not a WN insider but WN seems to have a decent relationship with the 550 and 555 locals but the relationship with the 556 local is pretty toxic from my understanding


555 is marginal at best
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2104
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:35 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
IAM 142 is well experienced in concessionary bargaining during the serial bankruptcies at USAIR and TWA, they have never met a concession they didn't like and ultimately provide the company.

Samuelson is living in denial. He still hasn't figured out the airlines aren't the same as the MTA and NYC officials.

Once again an ad hominem attack. We at US voted down the first concessionary package during the first bankruptcy and we had our contract abrogated one the second. That’s not agreeing.

And you all with the TWU took concessions outside of bankruptcy. Look in the mirror before trying to attack others.


Won't speak to USAIR but I was EXNWA and the union you defend the IAM was our AMT's union in 1993 the company came looking for concessions after Al Checchi and the Marriott execs did a leveraged buyout of NWA and the IAM was all for it we voted it down and the IAM kept bringing it back for a vote until it passed then the execs gave themselves a nice raise as a pat on the back for themselves for ramming that concession down our throats. So to the SWA peeps I say do not give in to any concessions the company has no problem dragging out contracts 7 years in the best of times.

Yet AMFA denied its members twice the right to vote on the final offer. And you all took 100% in concessions
 
WNagent310
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:02 pm

alasizon wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Just to be clear there are four locals that fall under the TWU International umbrella at Southwest. The letter referenced above is from the TWU International President

550 - Dispatchers
555- Ramp, Operations & Provisioning
556- Flight Attendants
557- Flight Crew Training Instructors


Someone will have to correct me as I'm not a WN insider but WN seems to have a decent relationship with the 550 and 555 locals but the relationship with the 556 local is pretty toxic from my understanding.


Within 555, I wouldn’t say it’s even decent. We have and still have major gripes with our current contract as of today. Obviously with the current situation going on that’s all out of the window. HDQ has a long history of dragging out our negotiations. I would say the only Local that seems to have a decent relationship with HDQ is our pilots union SWAPA. But that’s just my opinion.
 
Lootess
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:55 pm

You know it gets tiring when people keep bringing up stock buybacks, the industry was doing rather well. WN in particular had plenty liquidity and was still re-investing in the brand at a stable pace. No one blinked an eye, not even you critics right now until this invisible enemy made the rounds.

When you have no butts in seats, it's bad for business. Even if they didn't buyback a single stock it would only buy them several more months without intervention. If travel does not bounce back by the Fall, TWU is going to wish they did something sooner, Gary isn't going to stand by the no involuntary furloughs mantra if his back is against the wall.
 
flyboy730
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:52 pm

Lootess wrote:
You know it gets tiring when people keep bringing up stock buybacks, the industry was doing rather well. WN in particular had plenty liquidity and was still re-investing in the brand at a stable pace. No one blinked an eye, not even you critics right now until this invisible enemy made the rounds.

When you have no butts in seats, it's bad for business. Even if they didn't buyback a single stock it would only buy them several more months without intervention. If travel does not bounce back by the Fall, TWU is going to wish they did something sooner, Gary isn't going to stand by the no involuntary furloughs mantra if his back is against the wall.


It also gets tiring when things go south, the first place management turns to is the workers. They turn to the very people who allowed them do so well. Workers are tired of concessions, and history has proven numerous times that concessions do not spare furloughs. And to your point exactly, if the 10+ billion in buybacks would have only bought them several more months, then what do you think concessions are going to buy? Furloughs are unfortunately going to happen regardless of concessions, so we may as well preserve what we have for when guys get called back, they actually have something worth coming back to. Additionally, if liquidity was something management valued, then they have had years of record profits to build up a war chest. Since they didn’t, now it’s too late. Furloughs are coming, and when this all shakes out, the pigs at the top can fall on the same sword that us workers are going to fall on. Unfortunately, they’ve already taken care of themselves, so it won’t impact them as much as us.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:45 pm

flyboy730, very well said.

When the last Great Recession hit, the first place my employer went was the employees, slamming us with an 11% PERMANENT pay and benefits cut. That was ten years ago and we're still not back to where we were, counting in inflation and cost of living. We're actually falling further and further behind. This, despite there being ample fat in the budget, as determined by a State of California fact finding report and audit. People still got laid off even after the 11% cut, there was a strike that we mostly won (the devil was in the contract details which eventually came to fruition several years later), and many employees still lost their jobs permanently. And now, they wonder why they're having such a hard time hiring quality employees at all levels. They had millions in the budget but still went after the rank and file, and this was the public sector where tax dollars refill the coffers every few months and people have long memories. I can imagine it being even more cutthroat in the private sector. Like the airlines, my employer had years of budget surpluses (profits) to stash into a rainy day fund, buy gov't bonds as a temporary parking spot for money not actually spent in the budget, or (GASP!) spend on employees and benefits. But no...

For the folks bashing the Southwest employees, let me say this and then I'll shut up: if you're management, you cut everything else before you go after the employees. Then, when your pockets are literally threadbare and empty you can approach the employees. At that stage, most of them will rationally look at the situation and pitch in to help. No one wants to bankrupt their own business - killing your employer does no one any good. However, you can't simply look at the employees as a piggy bank to be raided whenever the situation doesn't quite match management's projections or predictions. That will only put the employees on the defensive and create a lot of uncertainty, resentment and anger, and that will make the employees dig their heels in and reject compromise. You see, it isn't always about what you do - its how you do it.

Have a great day, everyone. Stay safe.
 
AA94
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:57 pm

The discussion surrounding buybacks is somewhat misdirected, IMO. Given what management knows now it's likely a different decision would've been made, but that also goes for all cash-intensive capital projects most airlines have undertaken over the past 5-10 years. Tens of billions have been spent on aircraft refurbishments, real estate, infrastructure, etc.

It's okay to think buybacks are a frivolous use of the company dollar, but they're not the reason we're in this situation and wouldn't save us any more than other dollars would.

flyboy730 wrote:
I’ve been flying commercially for 27 years now, and I understand how these things work. A work group accepts concessions to save the company, then said work group gets left hanging with the concessions and has to fight like hell to get even small fractions back.

:checkmark:

Antarius wrote:

True leadership plans for things, losers react. My org have mapped out at least 10 different scenarios in terms of cash flow projections and have high level plans for each of them.

The reason you discuss is to be prepared. Just watch, September comes around and things aren't happening, you'll get more idiot grandstanding and no plan remotely in place.

No one said a commitment is needed. But closing your ears and yelling "fake news" is not productive either.


:checkmark:
 
oosnowrat
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:58 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
if you're management, you cut everything else before you go after the employees.


What has WN not yet cut?
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:22 am

We are going through a period of unprecedented damages to global and national economies and the usual, reflexive reactions from both management and labor are not acceptable. They should at the very least talk. However given management’s propensity of rewarding itself before labor when tough times are conquered, I think labor should demand concessions of management similar to what governments are asking for in exchange for state aid.

Whether it is a seat on the board, shares, special dividend, restrictions on bonuses and stock options, etc. I’ll leave it up to the negotiators to argue over, however management should have a stake on restoring labor’s contracts in their current, pre-concession state. These conditions alone should motivate management to ensure all has been tried before asking concessions of labor.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1760
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:06 pm

blueflyer wrote:
We are going through a period of unprecedented damages to global and national economies and the usual, reflexive reactions from both management and labor are not acceptable. They should at the very least talk. However given management’s propensity of rewarding itself before labor when tough times are conquered, I think labor should demand concessions of management similar to what governments are asking for in exchange for state aid.

Whether it is a seat on the board, shares, special dividend, restrictions on bonuses and stock options, etc. I’ll leave it up to the negotiators to argue over, however management should have a stake on restoring labor’s contracts in their current, pre-concession state. These conditions alone should motivate management to ensure all has been tried before asking concessions of labor.

I think you're 100% correct.

However, the TWU response was clear: FU. Not even a real counter-proposal...
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:19 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
roadrunner165 wrote:
How much did Southwest spend on stock buybacks during the flush years?

My Google skills aren’t great, but somewhere in the $10 billion range is what I found on a couple websites.

And those who don’t understand what stock buybacks are should really educate themselves. Before Regans deregulation era, they were essentially illegal.

Sounds like Southwest wants to privatize profits and socialize losses.


If I invest money in WN and they do well as a result of my investment, why is it wrong for them to offer me my money back?



Dividends paid on earnings is one thing, stock buybacks are another animal all together.

If you invested money in WN, and you do well as a result of stock buybacks artificially inflating share prices, well, then when shit goes sideways and WN can't make payroll, what's wrong with you losing everything? Instead, you expect a bail out to protect your investment. But you expect the employees to take it in the shorts. What gives?
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 998
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:34 pm

I’d say I am usually an anti-Union person. But I agree with TWU on this one. Wait until CARES is out of money and wait until we know more in August/September. For all we know their will be a CARES II or treatment plan discovered or better antibody testing. Why give up long term concessions until more is known?
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14485
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:48 pm

roadrunner165 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
roadrunner165 wrote:
How much did Southwest spend on stock buybacks during the flush years?

My Google skills aren’t great, but somewhere in the $10 billion range is what I found on a couple websites.

And those who don’t understand what stock buybacks are should really educate themselves. Before Regans deregulation era, they were essentially illegal.

Sounds like Southwest wants to privatize profits and socialize losses.


If I invest money in WN and they do well as a result of my investment, why is it wrong for them to offer me my money back?



Dividends paid on earnings is one thing, stock buybacks are another animal all together.

If you invested money in WN, and you do well as a result of stock buybacks artificially inflating share prices, well, then when shit goes sideways and WN can't make payroll, what's wrong with you losing everything? Instead, you expect a bail out to protect your investment. But you expect the employees to take it in the shorts. What gives?


You do know, don't you, that buybacks largely (and, in the case of WN, I think exclusvely) occur in good times? If a firm doesn't need all of the capital that the market has invested in it, it can make sense to reduce the number of shares oustanding. That doesn't really have anything to do with treatment of workers. Heck, employees who own stock benefit from buybacks just like the rest of us who own stock.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:59 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
if you're management, you cut everything else before you go after the employees.


What has WN not yet cut?


In my humble opinion it is about what can be cut across the board.
Some things are more easily cut and others are not.
For example, if you have a contract with a vendor and terms are not breakable, then you can't look there to cut. (unless you go into bankruptcy, which is not a route anyone wants to go).
In the airline industry one example could be upgrades to a plane for wifi. Does management want to spend that money, probably not, but a contract is a contract (just like union agreements).
I am sure that WN has lawyers telling them which agreements fall into which category.
There are times that even with a iron-clad contract that someone will discuss changing the terms and that is if they think it is in the best long-term interest.
This could be in my example, that the vendor knows they can get X from WN, but really they are looking long term to get Y and Z. If that means changing X to W with a future opportunity of X+Y+Z+A+B+C then they might do it. But that company needs to judge if that is in their best interest, just like the union here needs to do.

I am going go out on a limb here and say WN is doing this across the board and it not just trying to target a single union or segment. That would be prudent and wise.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4246
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:21 pm

I am anti high management pay, and think that publicly owned corporations should have top management compensation regulated. Unfortunately we don't. But the reality in aviation is that costs of line labor, fuel, capital costs terminal fees etc are what? 90% of income. If income disappears costs need to be reduced, and that means where the income actually is spent. Wages cannot be exempt.

I remember a short discussion with a conservative over road and gas taxes, car license tabs, and possible tolls. He was against all of them.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:45 am

Cubsrule wrote:
roadrunner165 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

If I invest money in WN and they do well as a result of my investment, why is it wrong for them to offer me my money back?



Dividends paid on earnings is one thing, stock buybacks are another animal all together.

If you invested money in WN, and you do well as a result of stock buybacks artificially inflating share prices, well, then when shit goes sideways and WN can't make payroll, what's wrong with you losing everything? Instead, you expect a bail out to protect your investment. But you expect the employees to take it in the shorts. What gives?


You do know, don't you, that buybacks largely (and, in the case of WN, I think exclusvely) occur in good times? If a firm doesn't need all of the capital that the market has invested in it, it can make sense to reduce the number of shares oustanding. That doesn't really have anything to do with treatment of workers. Heck, employees who own stock benefit from buybacks just like the rest of us who own stock.


I'll just leave this little nugget right here for you.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/aalsin/201 ... 5a2a466b1e

Buybacks reduce the assets on the balance sheet. And far too often stock buybacks are used to conceal actual profits from employee profit sharing programs and used to portray the company as weaker then they really are during collective bargaining negotiations.
 
mcg
Posts: 1086
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:39 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
roadrunner165 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

If I invest money in WN and they do well as a result of my investment, why is it wrong for them to offer me my money back?



Dividends paid on earnings is one thing, stock buybacks are another animal all together.

If you invested money in WN, and you do well as a result of stock buybacks artificially inflating share prices, well, then when shit goes sideways and WN can't make payroll, what's wrong with you losing everything? Instead, you expect a bail out to protect your investment. But you expect the employees to take it in the shorts. What gives?


You do know, don't you, that buybacks largely (and, in the case of WN, I think exclusvely) occur in good times? If a firm doesn't need all of the capital that the market has invested in it, it can make sense to reduce the number of shares oustanding. That doesn't really have anything to do with treatment of workers. Heck, employees who own stock benefit from buybacks just like the rest of us who own stock.


You are correct, but when management and owners choose to pay a dividend or buyback shares, they are limiting the company's ability to 'weather a storm'. Owners benefited from the buyback (fewer shares mean higher EPS and presumably higher share price), they should also be expected accept the down side that comes from a smaller equity base. In my opinion any aid from government or workers should dilute the stockholders.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14485
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:41 pm

mcg wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
roadrunner165 wrote:


Dividends paid on earnings is one thing, stock buybacks are another animal all together.

If you invested money in WN, and you do well as a result of stock buybacks artificially inflating share prices, well, then when shit goes sideways and WN can't make payroll, what's wrong with you losing everything? Instead, you expect a bail out to protect your investment. But you expect the employees to take it in the shorts. What gives?


You do know, don't you, that buybacks largely (and, in the case of WN, I think exclusvely) occur in good times? If a firm doesn't need all of the capital that the market has invested in it, it can make sense to reduce the number of shares oustanding. That doesn't really have anything to do with treatment of workers. Heck, employees who own stock benefit from buybacks just like the rest of us who own stock.


You are correct, but when management and owners choose to pay a dividend or buyback shares, they are limiting the company's ability to 'weather a storm'. Owners benefited from the buyback (fewer shares mean higher EPS and presumably higher share price), they should also be expected accept the down side that comes from a smaller equity base. In my opinion any aid from government or workers should dilute the stockholders.


I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't buy into the "buybacks are always bad" theory espoused above. Big companies like WN have teams looking at cashflow needs and evaluating the appropriate level of cash reserves.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
kiowa
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:38 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
We are going through a period of unprecedented damages to global and national economies and the usual, reflexive reactions from both management and labor are not acceptable. They should at the very least talk. However given management’s propensity of rewarding itself before labor when tough times are conquered, I think labor should demand concessions of management similar to what governments are asking for in exchange for state aid.

Whether it is a seat on the board, shares, special dividend, restrictions on bonuses and stock options, etc. I’ll leave it up to the negotiators to argue over, however management should have a stake on restoring labor’s contracts in their current, pre-concession state. These conditions alone should motivate management to ensure all has been tried before asking concessions of labor.

I think you're 100% correct.

However, the TWU response was clear: FU. Not even a real counter-proposal...


Why would they offer a counter-proposal?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1760
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:55 am

kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
We are going through a period of unprecedented damages to global and national economies and the usual, reflexive reactions from both management and labor are not acceptable. They should at the very least talk. However given management’s propensity of rewarding itself before labor when tough times are conquered, I think labor should demand concessions of management similar to what governments are asking for in exchange for state aid.

Whether it is a seat on the board, shares, special dividend, restrictions on bonuses and stock options, etc. I’ll leave it up to the negotiators to argue over, however management should have a stake on restoring labor’s contracts in their current, pre-concession state. These conditions alone should motivate management to ensure all has been tried before asking concessions of labor.

I think you're 100% correct.

However, the TWU response was clear: FU. Not even a real counter-proposal...


Why would they offer a counter-proposal?

I don't know; maybe to sound like they are trying to find a solution together?
Like blueflyer said, in exchange for concession, ask for "a seat on the board, shares, special dividend, restrictions on bonuses and stock options, etc"; at least propose something so you show that you are trying to negotiate in good faith instead of just flipping them the bird.

In a negotiation, the first one who speaks is usually in a weaker spot; WN management spoke first ("we need concessions from the rank-and-file"), TWU should have countered ("we want all C-suites to forego any salaries and compensation until 12/31/20, we want first in line for pay increase, etc"). That's how negotiation works.
Instead, the TWU just shrug their shoulders, which begs the question: do they even care about the survival of WN and the well-being for months and years to come of their own members? Sounds like they don't.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:07 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
...Southwest has some of the highest paid staff in the Industry, including ramp, support, and front line.


And a bloated corporate staff with a relatively high percentage of dead weight and misaligned capabilities needed to execute the strategy... all in the name of protecting the “culture.”
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2521
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:33 am

I have no dog in the race but I think I would at least want to know what the company is offering before saying no. The bankruptcy courts are going to be busy and I don't think the employees will like the judge's rubber stamp. At least you won't be asking yourself what you might have passed up.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1760
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:49 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I have no dog in the race but I think I would at least want to know what the company is offering before saying no. The bankruptcy courts are going to be busy and I don't think the employees will like the judge's rubber stamp. At least you won't be asking yourself what you might have passed up.

Remember what some have said upthread: "full pay until last day". Obviously, no will to listen.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:48 am

WayexTDI wrote:
kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I think you're 100% correct.

However, the TWU response was clear: FU. Not even a real counter-proposal...


Why would they offer a counter-proposal?

I don't know; maybe to sound like they are trying to find a solution together?
Like blueflyer said, in exchange for concession, ask for "a seat on the board, shares, special dividend, restrictions on bonuses and stock options, etc"; at least propose something so you show that you are trying to negotiate in good faith instead of just flipping them the bird.

In a negotiation, the first one who speaks is usually in a weaker spot; WN management spoke first ("we need concessions from the rank-and-file"), TWU should have countered ("we want all C-suites to forego any salaries and compensation until 12/31/20, we want first in line for pay increase, etc"). That's how negotiation works.
Instead, the TWU just shrug their shoulders, which begs the question: do they even care about the survival of WN and the well-being for months and years to come of their own members? Sounds like they don't.


You have to remember a couple of points, before you jump to conclusions, on who is in "a weaker spot":
1) labour contract negotiations, in the US airline industry post-deregulation, are typically fairly ugly
2) there is a major legal difference between a contract that is "open" to amendment and the one that's not. If a contract is open, who initiated opening it matters not. What matters is whos case is stronger. At the moment, labour's case is very weak (almost no work). Labour would prefer for the contract to stay shut.

I tend to vaguely remember a case (and US, as a common-law jurisdiction, tends to be big on precedents), where the fact that a union "sat down" to "frankly discuss" things with the management, was determined by a court to be an event enough, to consider their contract to be open. Now way a competent labour leader would commit the same mistake again.

And it appears that "negotiating in good faith" is not something, what US labour unions are expecting from airline management, for a very long time.

As for survival of individual airlines -- yeah, that is apparently a nice thing to have. But in this crisis, survival of major carriers is no longer in labour's hands. They could agree (in theory) to work for no money -- but it will not be THE factor to determine survival of their employer, something else will. So why destroy their own livelihoods for no purpose?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4246
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:45 pm

George Bush and Obama, IIRC, confirmed a general outline for rescue of the auto industry. It was agreed everyone would be taking a harircut - management, worker, and esp. stockholders. Why should this be any different? The citizens of the US are bailing out the industry, an equity stake seems obvious. And if any of the stakeholders refuse to negotiate - their right, but then government needs to step aside.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
N104HR
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:24 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:52 pm

This is NOT Herb’s WN.
 
kiowa
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:56 pm

N104HR wrote:
This is NOT Herb’s WN.


He was a class act but I believe he is dead.
 
swafa
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:33 am

Re: WN asks TWU for concessions

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:58 pm

N104HR wrote:
This is NOT Herb’s WN.


No it isn’t...
It’s larger
It serves more markets
It makes more money
It employs more people
It pays its employees higher wages
It matches larger % in its 401k
It has paid more in profit sharing to its employees
Etc...
It’s not Herbs WN. It’s better.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos