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sibibom
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:26 am

zkncj wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
First of all, where does NZ operate their 777's to ? Mainly Asia, especially China ? If so, they may be saying they don't expect or don't want tourists from China or anywhere near it for the foreseeable future.


The 77E/77W fleet current were mainly used for: LAX, SFO, YVR, IAH, LHR (ends OCT20), EZE, SYD, MEL, BNE, ADL, PER, RAR, NAN, TBU, APW, NRT, PVG, HKG

Basically anywhere on the network that they we're needed some of the above routes are operated by an mix of 320/321/77E/77W/789s depending on demand (which can change month to month)


From what I can infer B777E are certainly gone. B777W depends on if and when demand may return. If there isn't much demand for last 2-3 years, B787-9s can suffice for them. They were to get B787-10 from 2022 with range to cross the pacific (atleast YVR, SFO and LAX). so that leaves IAH which can be on B787-9, or just dropped. Every airline is leaving options open. But longer this continues, we will see more and more airlines dropping a type of widebody(if they fly multiple types) and simplifying their fleets, A350 and B787 being the most prefered types.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7500
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:31 am

Cubsrule wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Actually, I’ve made the two points separately. I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong. But I also think that if they are going to pursue that policy, they ought to support the industries they are hurting. You can agree with one without agreeing with the other. In the US, we’ve done a much better job of economic support than of public health intervention. New Zealand seems like perhaps the opposite, at least as to the airline industry.


NZ is 52% owned by the New Zealand Government, therefore the Government is more than aware of the impacts this is currently having on NZ. They have provided NZ with an loan of $900million NZD to help them with credit in the short term. They have also given NZ an $70m NZD wage subsidy to cover 10,228 employed to keep them employed for the next 12 weeks (this is not an loan, and any Business in New Zealand can freely get $600/week per full time worker, if the companies income is down 30%).

Yes there are going to be job losses, especially in the travel industry at the moment. Thankfully allot of the workers in tourism industry in New Zealand are on short-term visas (e.g working holidays etc) who have now returned to there home countries.


“Go home so we don’t have to support you” is a sensible policy?

Remind me not to wade into New Zealand politics again.


Come again?

It’s pretty common for tourists to get short term working visas in the hospitality tourism industry.

A lot of those people would have been leaving in March April anyway once the peak season ended, and if they were tourists there wasn’t a lot they could do other than bunker down with the rest of NZ anyway. Sensible policy or not this is unprecedented.

Kiwis in Australia who have been there for years were getting nothing if they aren’t citizens or permanent residents, they work and pay taxes, that’s harsh when they actually live there and given the close relationship between NZ-OZ and the fact an Australian living in NZ gets everything kiwis get.
 
aflyingkiwi
Posts: 434
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:42 am

I think there are some nz posters who are clearly out of touch with the decimation that this is causing to workers in the travel industry (which make up >10% of jobs personally and only a small proportion of them are foreigners). I guess time will tell whether this was the right strategy but one thing for certatin is that there will be death (of a different sort) from this approach.

Whether or not its even feasible to eradicate the virus when we've had more than a 1000 reported cases (probably many more unreported/asymptomatic) is a big question mark. In 4 months time (late winter in southern hemisphere) we may look back at the arrogrance we had in taking this approach.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:22 am

aflyingkiwi wrote:
I think there are some nz posters who are clearly out of touch ...

Cubsrule wrote:
I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong.

New Zealand had to go hard and minimize the risks - we pretty much have the lowest amount of ICU beds and ventilators per capita among all comparable countries. Risks are amplified. That's not even taking into account the even greater risks in the Pacific, our gateway status to there, and constitutional obligations to certain Pacific places.

On resources, for example, see https://www.instagram.com/p/B-KuYw9gppU/ and https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12317275.

xiaotung wrote:
New Zealand and Australia must work together ...

I wonder if one option for the 777's could be for NZ to consider setting up an Australian-based cargo unit and take advantage of Australia's remote location globally, but its closeness to us, soaring air freight costs globally, airlines pulling out of Australia, and NZ's existing approval to operate from Australia to third countries. Even if only temporarily?

Cheers,

C.
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 2838
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 am

NZ516 wrote:
There is so many different categories of cabin staff. Here is the breakdown of each group affected:

Air New Zealand job cuts:
Inflight service managers - Cut from 87 to 70
Deputy service managers - Cut from 72 to 70
Flight attendants - Cut from 514 to 443
Flight service managers - Cut from 98 to 0
Inflight service coordinators - Cut from 79 to 0
Flight attendant premium services - Cut from 367 to 0
Pacific class cabin crews - Cut from 316 to 0


From:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2 ... izing.html


And yet I recall in Feb or Mar when someone brought up how the PVG based crew were terminated one member responded with "why is that important"? Going forward all of this is going to be quite complicated- I wouldn't be surprised if the above change on a weekly basis.
 
xiaotung
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:58 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:15 pm

eta unknown wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
There is so many different categories of cabin staff. Here is the breakdown of each group affected:

Air New Zealand job cuts:
Inflight service managers - Cut from 87 to 70
Deputy service managers - Cut from 72 to 70
Flight attendants - Cut from 514 to 443
Flight service managers - Cut from 98 to 0
Inflight service coordinators - Cut from 79 to 0
Flight attendant premium services - Cut from 367 to 0
Pacific class cabin crews - Cut from 316 to 0


From:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2 ... izing.html


And yet I recall in Feb or Mar when someone brought up how the PVG based crew were terminated one member responded with "why is that important"? Going forward all of this is going to be quite complicated- I wouldn't be surprised if the above change on a weekly basis.


Is the PVG crew base permanently gone? Will PVG be using AKL based crew if and when flights resume?
 
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zkojq
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:06 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
aflyingkiwi wrote:
I think there are some nz posters who are clearly out of touch ...

Cubsrule wrote:
I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong.

New Zealand had to go hard and minimize the risks - we pretty much have the lowest amount of ICU beds and ventilators per capita among all comparable countries. Risks are amplified. That's not even taking into account the even greater risks in the Pacific, our gateway status to there, and constitutional obligations to certain Pacific places.


Also, we're going into winter soon. Lots of people will get pneumonia and will be of very high risk.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14487
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:46 pm

zkojq wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
aflyingkiwi wrote:
I think there are some nz posters who are clearly out of touch ...

Cubsrule wrote:
I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong.

New Zealand had to go hard and minimize the risks - we pretty much have the lowest amount of ICU beds and ventilators per capita among all comparable countries. Risks are amplified. That's not even taking into account the even greater risks in the Pacific, our gateway status to there, and constitutional obligations to certain Pacific places.


Also, we're going into winter soon. Lots of people will get pneumonia and will be of very high risk.


That’s a good point. Keep in mind too that lots of at-risk folks wind up ventilated for other seasonal diseases (e.g. flu), so “spare” ventilator capacity is lower in the winter most places.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cpd
Posts: 6415
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:14 pm

zkojq wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
aflyingkiwi wrote:
I think there are some nz posters who are clearly out of touch ...

Cubsrule wrote:
I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong.

New Zealand had to go hard and minimize the risks - we pretty much have the lowest amount of ICU beds and ventilators per capita among all comparable countries. Risks are amplified. That's not even taking into account the even greater risks in the Pacific, our gateway status to there, and constitutional obligations to certain Pacific places.


Also, we're going into winter soon. Lots of people will get pneumonia and will be of very high risk.


Australia too, it’s already starting to get cooler now. Yesterday was quite chilly.

We cannot take any chances with this disease. A news report mentioned one person got the disease three times. That’s an isolated case but it shows how critical this effort is.

The economic effects are terrible, but then the public health and mental health effects are too.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2667
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:14 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Truthfully, I wonder what this whole situation will do to any kids around the world graduating from high school or college in the next few years who was thinking about going into aviation.


Hopefully discourages them? The much salivated over pilot 'shortage' never really materialized. And that was in the best of times. The truth is that aviation in general is a far more elastic market than we wanted to believe. And nowhere near as indispensable. Sorry for the double negative.


zkeoj wrote:
I am an aviation fan, yes. But I prefer saving lives over flying and spotting privileges. Priorities....


Well said. Quite a lot of arrogance from people who think what is effectively an industry centered entirely around elective behavior is somehow worth accepting a continuing risk. What a lot of folks are not —willing— to see is the fact that the scope of the economic alterations have already been done. Slamming everything back into gear now not only fails to contain the virus, it makes worthless everything we have done, while simultaneously indulging a fantasy that things even can go back to the way they were. There will be permanent changes, and in the end, it will be better for most people, if not necessarily airlines. But that's life. I'm sure horseshoe makers had a problem with cars...
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 280
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:52 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Truthfully, I wonder what this whole situation will do to any kids around the world graduating from high school or college in the next few years who was thinking about going into aviation.


Hopefully discourages them? The much salivated over pilot 'shortage' never really materialized. And that was in the best of times. The truth is that aviation in general is a far more elastic market than we wanted to believe. And nowhere near as indispensable. Sorry for the double negative.


Part of me hopes your correct. If we're all just ultimately expendable, I'd hope the youth all over the world get discouraged before wasting their passions on something that'll just break their hearts through no fault of their own.

There is no future for this industry if the next generation doesn't see it as worth believing in. And it doesn't deserve to survive if it can't convince them that it's worthy of that belief.

If we were all such a luxury from the start then the rest of the world ought to just deal without. I've tried to make my peace with that over the last few months.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2667
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:04 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Truthfully, I wonder what this whole situation will do to any kids around the world graduating from high school or college in the next few years who was thinking about going into aviation.


Hopefully discourages them? The much salivated over pilot 'shortage' never really materialized. And that was in the best of times. The truth is that aviation in general is a far more elastic market than we wanted to believe. And nowhere near as indispensable. Sorry for the double negative.


Part of me hopes your correct. If we're all just ultimately expendable, I'd hope the youth all over the world get discouraged before wasting their passions on something that'll just break their hearts through no fault of their own.

There is no future for this industry if the next generation doesn't see it as worth believing in. And it doesn't deserve to survive if it can't convince them that it's worthy of that belief.

If we were all such a luxury from the start then the rest of the world ought to just deal without. I've tried to make my peace with that over the last few months.



The industry will survive, it will just get massively right-sized. After about six months of this, more and more travel once deemed as essential will be seen as anything but. The amount of that is very likely up for debate, but it will not be less than 50%.

I also agree that it is better to find these things before investing in a career.

FWIW, I am looking forward to seeing the things that fill the previous needs. Commerce and all manner of project development will still need to continue, but it is clear that the level of automation involved and the leaps in telecom will at least be somewhat exciting.

And who knows... Perhaps what's left of commercial aviation will become an overall better experience. There is room for that to happen too.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:24 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Hopefully discourages them? The much salivated over pilot 'shortage' never really materialized. And that was in the best of times. The truth is that aviation in general is a far more elastic market than we wanted to believe. And nowhere near as indispensable. Sorry for the double negative.


Part of me hopes your correct. If we're all just ultimately expendable, I'd hope the youth all over the world get discouraged before wasting their passions on something that'll just break their hearts through no fault of their own.

There is no future for this industry if the next generation doesn't see it as worth believing in. And it doesn't deserve to survive if it can't convince them that it's worthy of that belief.

If we were all such a luxury from the start then the rest of the world ought to just deal without. I've tried to make my peace with that over the last few months.



The industry will survive, it will just get massively right-sized. After about six months of this, more and more travel once deemed as essential will be seen as anything but. The amount of that is very likely up for debate, but it will not be less than 50%.

I also agree that it is better to find these things before investing in a career.

FWIW, I am looking forward to seeing the things that fill the previous needs. Commerce and all manner of project development will still need to continue, but it is clear that the level of automation involved and the leaps in telecom will at least be somewhat exciting.

And who knows... Perhaps what's left of commercial aviation will become an overall better experience. There is room for that to happen too.


I hope this new world will have room for everyone it tosses by the wayside. Not just from aviation, but aircraft manufacturing, hospitality, tourism, events, etc.

I say hope because I know it won't. There won't be enough jobs in teleconferencing or e-commerce for the economy's new offal.
 
smartplane
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Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe we can get better sources on this: NZ unions, or well-informed employees. Is there even a mechanism to cut staff by aircraft type, instead of by seniority?

NZ plans for 777-specific MX staff would be the best guide. If only a skeleton team to be retained for storage-related maintenance, their fate is determined.
 
acavpics
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:56 pm

I wonder what routes NZ , like all other carriers, will have during the December 2020 holiday season.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3874
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:34 pm

smartplane wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe we can get better sources on this: NZ unions, or well-informed employees. Is there even a mechanism to cut staff by aircraft type, instead of by seniority?

NZ plans for 777-specific MX staff would be the best guide. If only a skeleton team to be retained for storage-related maintenance, their fate is determined.


NZ’s MX operation is already an skeleton operation for wide bodies, all the major work is down in Asia for the 777/787 fleets. Day to day work is done in AKL for the 777/787 fleets.

The a320/1 main MX base is in CHC which does most work on that fleet, with some spill over to AKL.

Most of NZ’s MX work for an seperate company which is an joint partner ship between NZ / PW. Which overhauls a320/737 engine’s which employees around 500 people.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:05 am

xiaotung wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
There is so many different categories of cabin staff. Here is the breakdown of each group affected:



From:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2 ... izing.html


And yet I recall in Feb or Mar when someone brought up how the PVG based crew were terminated one member responded with "why is that important"? Going forward all of this is going to be quite complicated- I wouldn't be surprised if the above change on a weekly basis.


Is the PVG crew base permanently gone? Will PVG be using AKL based crew if and when flights resume?

NZ scheduled to resume AKL - PVG passenger operations from 31 May.

It will be very interesting to see whether these flights are staffed with PVG or AKL-based crews (were the PVG crew formally laid off, or just given unpaid leave?) - if the former, that may cause quite a bit of tension, given crew layoffs in New Zealand.

Cheers,

C.

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