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Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:17 am
by sibibom
Air New Zealand has outlined its plans to remove around 1,000 workers from its team in a bid to cut costs. The airline announced today that all of its Boeing 777 cabin crew would lose their jobs, along with a large portion of the Dreamliner team. This is to tackle what the airline is calling a ‘surplus’ of workers during the current travel downturn.

Air New Zealand stated in the announcement that it didn’t expect to fly its 777s before April next year. As a result of this, the airline’s 777 crews will be cut completely.

Will they just retire their entire B777 Fleet?

source : https://simpleflying.com/air-new-zealan ... -777-crew/

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:31 am
by chonetsao
Do they mean B777-200 or B777-300? Currently there are 8 each. If they are going to do with the whole fleet of B772 and B773, that is half of their long haul fleet!

I don't see them decommission their B777-300ER fleet. There is no aircraft in their fleet can replace them. B789 is too premium light compare with the B777-300ER.

However, I can totally see them get rid of B777-200ER as the B787-10 will arrive in 2022 to replace B777-200ER. Assume there is no growth in 2020 and 2021, 8 B777-200ER seems to be a good idea to get rid of.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:35 am
by zkncj
New Zealand isn’t planning to open its boarders until late 2020, and then it will be an soft opening to selected markets.

The government is taking fight hard stance to Covid-19, and must the country in to an strict lock down.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:46 am
by MIflyer12
Maybe we can get better sources on this: NZ unions, or well-informed employees. Is there even a mechanism to cut staff by aircraft type, instead of by seniority?

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:05 pm
by AirbusOnly
Even if it is hard to accept for us aviation enthusiasts, but I think we have to say goodbye to the air traffic we knew before Corona. Nothing will ever be the same again. The example of Air NewZealand will not be the only one. COVID 19 will occupy the world for a long time to come and will have a lasting effect on traffic flows and tourism - in this case negatively. Aircraft in the sizes A 380, A346, B747, B777 will no longer be needed because they will be difficult to fill. The future belongs to the longrange narrowbody, such as the A321neoXLR or, with some restrictions, the B 737 MAX, if it will ever fly again. We will see how other big airlines, especially EMIRATES with its fleet consisting only of widebodies, will operate in the future. Only my opion, hope I will be wrong.,

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:31 pm
by NZ321
AirbusOnly wrote:
Even if it is hard to accept for us aviation enthusiasts, but I think we have to say goodbye to the air traffic we knew before Corona. Nothing will ever be the same again. The example of Air NewZealand will not be the only one. COVID 19 will occupy the world for a long time to come and will have a lasting effect on traffic flows and tourism - in this case negatively. Aircraft in the sizes A 380, A346, B747, B777 will no longer be needed because they will be difficult to fill. The future belongs to the longrange narrowbody, such as the A321neoXLR or, with some restrictions, the B 737 MAX, if it will ever fly again. We will see how other big airlines, especially EMIRATES with its fleet consisting only of widebodies, will operate in the future. Only my opion, hope I will be wrong.,


I think you are making some quite courageous suggestions.... :)

"Goodbye" for how long and to what routes? - For sure, some will be in limbo for a year or two, maybe some never returned.
"A long time to come" - can mean weeks, months, years. You are not specific about this. But in the meantime routes (and new routes) can grow on the basis of a whole raft of reasons we can't know and predict in a precise way right now as things are evolving / changing very quickly.

There are some quite intelligent and highly respected and experienced industry personnel who clearly don't share your view that the future belongs to long-range narrow-body - indeed if this had traction I think it's fair to say the industry would be unfolding in quite a different way from the way things are progressing at the moment. So I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

Significant hiatus for sure, though.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:33 pm
by IndianicWorld
I think many are overstating the longer term impact of COVID-19. I tend to recall many saying similar things about significant past events (2001 esoecially) and although demand was hugely effected for a few years, it rebounded to record levels not that long after.

The landscape will change, as carriers will fail and new airlines come into the market, but given how connected the world has become, demand will continue to grow again in line with the health of the economic growth path.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:47 pm
by Some1Somewhere
NZ is aiming for full internal eradication. If we manage it, it is unlikely any external travel will be allowed without a 2-week or more mandatory quarantine in a government facility. The only people willing to travel under those circumstances are going to be those travelling for several months.

We *may* allow travel with looser restrictions to other countries that manage this and maintain a similar policy - Singapore and Australia have been mentioned. The US, most of Europe, and many others are right out - there is no way it will be contained.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that this will cut almost all the international demand until such time as a vaccine is developed, tested, and rolled out.

The specific mention of all *passenger* flying implies that they will likely be running many freight-only routes on the 777.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:52 pm
by Unclekoru
MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe we can get better sources on this: NZ unions, or well-informed employees. Is there even a mechanism to cut staff by aircraft type, instead of by seniority?


I can add the following. It's a seniority airline as far as pilots go, so last on, first off. Lots of down training and seat swaps. Cabin crew is more complicated, with the 787 crewed by "mid haul" on inferior terms and conditions, while the 777 fleets are crewed by F/As on the legacy long haul contract (for lack of a better description). The legacy crews have security of employment provisions that will see them move to the 787 once the 777s are parked up, thus displacing mid haul crews who will most likely be made redundant (along with any excess LH people). That's the basic plan as it was explained to me. It's also likely that some 77W capacity will remain operational, probably only a small number of frames though, and that could change either way.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:16 pm
by jfk777
AirbusOnly wrote:
Even if it is hard to accept for us aviation enthusiasts, but I think we have to say goodbye to the air traffic we knew before Corona. Nothing will ever be the same again. The example of Air NewZealand will not be the only one. COVID 19 will occupy the world for a long time to come and will have a lasting effect on traffic flows and tourism - in this case negatively. Aircraft in the sizes A 380, A346, B747, B777 will no longer be needed because they will be difficult to fill. The future belongs to the longrange narrowbody, such as the A321neoXLR or, with some restrictions, the B 737 MAX, if it will ever fly again. We will see how other big airlines, especially EMIRATES with its fleet consisting only of widebodies, will operate in the future. Only my opion, hope I will be wrong.,


We are talking New Zealand here, no A321XLR can fly from Auckland to LAX, Singapore, Tokyo, Hong Kong or Buenos Aires. It has to be a widebody. ANZ needs big twins no if and or buts. In these times of needing Cargo capacity is there really no need for ANZ's 777-300ER fleet ? The only route a long rane narrowbody works for ANZ is Perth, Australia.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:29 pm
by Some1Somewhere
They have 789s.

The article also fairly explicitly says no 777 passenger operations. They have not mentioned firing pilots. I suspect the 777s might remain cargo-only.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:36 pm
by Unclekoru
Some1Somewhere wrote:
They have 789s.

The article also fairly explicitly says no 777 passenger operations. They have not mentioned firing pilots. I suspect the 777s might remain cargo-only.


The article doesn't mention it but the company announced recently that 380 odd pilots are suplus to requirements.


Source: NZ Herald.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new ... d=12322688

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:29 pm
by Jetport
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression. Foreign investment will be minimal if you have to go through a 2 week quarantine to visit NZ. Long term isolation from the rest of the world does not sound like a sustainable or rational policy, especially considering COVID 19's mortality rate gets lower every day as more people are tested. At 3-6 months the economic pain will be so severe something will have to give.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:35 pm
by xiaotung
New Zealand and Australia must work together and create a trans-Tasman travel bubble to achieve maximum economic benefits in a safe environment. It's not easy because either country will have to open its boarder to a 3rd country with the other's consent. And the 2 Prime Ministers are not exactly in good terms. But to preserve as many as employees as possible, this is the only way.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:10 pm
by oceanvikram
Jetport wrote:
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression. Foreign investment will be minimal if you have to go through a 2 week quarantine to visit NZ. Long term isolation from the rest of the world does not sound like a sustainable or rational policy, especially considering COVID 19's mortality rate gets lower every day as more people are tested. At 3-6 months the economic pain will be so severe something will have to give.


Maybe their cultural value system emphasis is on health and well being of their people. They have taken a zero tolerance approach, while others are happy to tolerate some deaths for the sake of the economy.

I have no idea what is morally justified. I guess history will be the best judge.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:34 pm
by N212R
Jetport wrote:
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression. Foreign investment will be minimal if you have to go through a 2 week quarantine to visit NZ. Long term isolation from the rest of the world does not sound like a sustainable or rational policy, especially considering COVID 19's mortality rate gets lower every day as more people are tested. At 3-6 months the economic pain will be so severe something will have to give.


How quickly people forget that it was "only" a century ago that a distant, isolated island like New Zealand survived very well thank you without mass trade and tourism, foreign investment and globalism's more deleterious effects. Something tells me the hardy Kiwi's will get along just fine, like they always have, without the uber-wealthy expats buying estates, the endebtment loans from the World Bank or the avaricious Chinese putting down stakes. The global world order will take a back seat but practical New Zealand with remain in working order.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:36 pm
by Cubsrule
oceanvikram wrote:
Jetport wrote:
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression. Foreign investment will be minimal if you have to go through a 2 week quarantine to visit NZ. Long term isolation from the rest of the world does not sound like a sustainable or rational policy, especially considering COVID 19's mortality rate gets lower every day as more people are tested. At 3-6 months the economic pain will be so severe something will have to give.


Maybe their cultural value system emphasis is on health and well being of their people. They have taken a zero tolerance approach, while others are happy to tolerate some deaths for the sake of the economy.

I have no idea what is morally justified. I guess history will be the best judge.


I hear that point, but the problem with it is that their position isn't really rooted in science. If I'm in Indonesia (or wherever) and the chances that I am infected are essentially zero, why shouldn't I be permitted to travel to New Zealand? The government is seemingly taking a position that will kill the travel and tourism sector and, at least judging from these layoffs, isn't supporting those sectors correspondingly.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:38 pm
by zkojq
Why are people trusting SimpleFlying?

Jetport wrote:
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression.


The tourism industry will be dead anyway for the near term. Even if they could hypothetically afford it in the current economic situation, who's going to want to go to the other side of the world for a holiday (at risk of being stranded here if borders close and flights are cancelled) until the virus is contained? Might as well be super proactive and eliminate virus completely. Current government efforts are working very well. Seems stupid to reopen the borders and keep risking secondary outbreaks.


Don't worry, New Zealand will still be around next year. There'll be plenty of room for tourists to come visit.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:02 pm
by UA772IAD
IndianicWorld wrote:
I think many are overstating the longer term impact of COVID-19. I tend to recall many saying similar things about significant past events (2001 esoecially) and although demand was hugely effected for a few years, it rebounded to record levels not that long after.

The landscape will change, as carriers will fail and new airlines come into the market, but given how connected the world has become, demand will continue to grow again in line with the health of the economic growth path.


The difference though, is that past events did not shut down the global economy, including September 11. A return to normalcy will depend upon stopping the spread of the virus. Without that- and a vaccine, expect there to be travel restrictions and quarantine measures put in place and for those to blink on and off in different countries. Demand will not return if a location is deemed a hot spot, or has travel restrictions or quarantine measures in place. Prior to COVID, globalization and GDP had already peaked by some measures- this event will certainly have an effect on that trajectory.

Business travel demand is another big question on the other side of this. With many businesses forced to adapt to working from home- can we expect this to become a normal practice, in which the lucrative corporate travel sector contracts to a smaller level long term? That is certainly a real possibility.

>>Does NZ cabin crew only fly one fleet at a time? Is there a response from the work group's union or government on severance or compensation for these workers?

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:41 pm
by zkncj
UA772IAD wrote:
>>Does NZ cabin crew only fly one fleet at a time? Is there a response from the work group's union or government on severance or compensation for these workers?


Yes each type has its own pool of crew, on different contracts hence the legacy contracts on the 777a. Which of course the airline would love to ditch! Example the 777 crew typically get two night layovers on places like LAX/SFO yet the 787 crews typically get one.

Fleet pools are:
- 77W/77E
- 789
- a320/321
- ATR 72
- Q300

With the a320 pretty sure there is still to pools of crew too, there is the ex 737 crew (old short-haul contract) and then the newer a320 crew pool.

The a320 crew pool did have its issues, want to replace it’s short-haul contracts with newer cheaper contracts. Hence they handed the operation of there a320s over to there LCC at the time called Freedom Air who operated NZ/SJ flights. This then became Zeal320 Ltd, who then later became part of mainline again.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:01 pm
by oceanvikram
Cubsrule wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
Jetport wrote:
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression. Foreign investment will be minimal if you have to go through a 2 week quarantine to visit NZ. Long term isolation from the rest of the world does not sound like a sustainable or rational policy, especially considering COVID 19's mortality rate gets lower every day as more people are tested. At 3-6 months the economic pain will be so severe something will have to give.


Maybe their cultural value system emphasis is on health and well being of their people. They have taken a zero tolerance approach, while others are happy to tolerate some deaths for the sake of the economy.

I have no idea what is morally justified. I guess history will be the best judge.


I hear that point, but the problem with it is that their position isn't really rooted in science. If I'm in Indonesia (or wherever) and the chances that I am infected are essentially zero, why shouldn't I be permitted to travel to New Zealand? The government is seemingly taking a position that will kill the travel and tourism sector and, at least judging from these layoffs, isn't supporting those sectors correspondingly.


I guess you are lucky in that, those who you physically interact with have been tested including yourself and the results were negative.

Or you live by yourself (like me), have been tested (unlike me) and live in a complete lockdown city/country (unlike me), in that every interaction with any person on your journey to New Zealand has been tested or is immune to it.

If all the above is true, then I guess you are the type of tourist that New Zealand wants.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:19 pm
by ShinyAndChrome
I hope these crews will have access to some form of severance or at least government benefits. The wording of the article makes this seem like something permanent rather than a furlough.

Truthfully, I wonder what this whole situation will do to any kids around the world graduating from high school or college in the next few years who was thinking about going into aviation. If this is really going to be the harbinger of some kind of new normal, maybe the blood, sweat, and tears isn't worth it if you can still choose to do something else. Maybe the best case scenario is that we'll always end up with a shortage of pilots, AMTs, and other staff rather than seeing every third person hosed every couple decades.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:20 pm
by zkncj
oceanvikram wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:

Maybe their cultural value system emphasis is on health and well being of their people. They have taken a zero tolerance approach, while others are happy to tolerate some deaths for the sake of the economy.

I have no idea what is morally justified. I guess history will be the best judge.


I hear that point, but the problem with it is that their position isn't really rooted in science. If I'm in Indonesia (or wherever) and the chances that I am infected are essentially zero, why shouldn't I be permitted to travel to New Zealand? The government is seemingly taking a position that will kill the travel and tourism sector and, at least judging from these layoffs, isn't supporting those sectors correspondingly.


I guess you are lucky in that, those who you physically interact with have been tested including yourself and the results were negative.

Or you live by yourself (like me), have been tested (unlike me) and live in a complete lockdown city/country (unlike me), in that every interaction with any person on your journey to New Zealand has been tested or is immune to it.

If all the above is true, then I guess you are the type of tourist that New Zealand wants.


Right now the Government sees the risk of health to large, there have already been 9 deaths in New Zealand, out of 1300 cases. To the government 9 deaths is to many.....

The most cases here are linked to overseas travel, or close family members of ourseas travel.

Right now the risk it to high to let people in from all of the place, until it become more under control globally.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:55 pm
by Cubsrule
oceanvikram wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:

Maybe their cultural value system emphasis is on health and well being of their people. They have taken a zero tolerance approach, while others are happy to tolerate some deaths for the sake of the economy.

I have no idea what is morally justified. I guess history will be the best judge.


I hear that point, but the problem with it is that their position isn't really rooted in science. If I'm in Indonesia (or wherever) and the chances that I am infected are essentially zero, why shouldn't I be permitted to travel to New Zealand? The government is seemingly taking a position that will kill the travel and tourism sector and, at least judging from these layoffs, isn't supporting those sectors correspondingly.


I guess you are lucky in that, those who you physically interact with have been tested including yourself and the results were negative.

Or you live by yourself (like me), have been tested (unlike me) and live in a complete lockdown city/country (unlike me), in that every interaction with any person on your journey to New Zealand has been tested or is immune to it.

If all the above is true, then I guess you are the type of tourist that New Zealand wants.


To the contrary, I'm virtually certain that I have interacted with infected people. But I'm lucky to live in a place where the transmission number is now (finally) below 1, and as far as I know I haven't been infected. There are lots and lots of people like me out there.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:28 pm
by jetblueguy22
oceanvikram wrote:
Jetport wrote:
If New Zealand really takes a no off Island travel until a vaccine is widely available approach, the economic damage will be catastrophic. What percent of NZ's GDP is from trade and tourism? With tourism eliminated and trade somewhat reduced, NZ is likely to have a severe depression. Foreign investment will be minimal if you have to go through a 2 week quarantine to visit NZ. Long term isolation from the rest of the world does not sound like a sustainable or rational policy, especially considering COVID 19's mortality rate gets lower every day as more people are tested. At 3-6 months the economic pain will be so severe something will have to give.


Maybe their cultural value system emphasis is on health and well being of their people. They have taken a zero tolerance approach, while others are happy to tolerate some deaths for the sake of the economy.

I have no idea what is morally justified. I guess history will be the best judge.

Anybody who shrugs off the impact of keeping economies closed is living with blinders on.

NPR had a fantastic guest on a few weeks ago talking about keeping the economies closed. There’s two options. Allow some deaths to keep the world going, or remain shut down and throw 2 billion people into poverty. Which do you think is more disastrous long term? A million deaths worldwide? Or the lack of access to basic healthcare for 2 million people.

You can’t close economies and expect everything to be back to normal when this passes

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:34 pm
by ikolkyo
This seems a bit much, no?

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:43 pm
by zkncj
ikolkyo wrote:
This seems a bit much, no?


It comes down to cultural perspective, someone countries put health care and well being of there citizens as an top priority. Then others see health care and well being an user pays user gets and are willing for people to die.

Right now the best thing is for travel to be limited for the next 3-6months, to allow the virus to become more globally stable. All it would take is one group of tourists on hoilday with it to cause another outbreak.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:18 pm
by Cubsrule
zkncj wrote:
All it would take is one group of tourists on hoilday with it to cause another outbreak.


The whole problem with New Zealand’s approach is that there is no - literally zero - evidence that this is true (cruise passengers excepted).

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:33 pm
by Kiwiscanfly2
The title of this stream is possibly a little premature.

Air NZ has begun a consultation with their 1,550 wide body (aircraft least anyone is confused) cabin crew as their forward planning through 2021 suggests there are some 1,000 roles which are surplus to the plan. This might at first sight seem like an easy task given there are some 1,550 cabin crew across the 777 and 787 fleets. There are however complexities which go into the pot. Five key items are.

(1) each aircraft has its own unique set of cabin crew, specifically employed, trained, rewarded, managed and assessed on their specific 787 or 777 aircraft,

(2) each unique set of cabin crew has their own unionised collective bargaining agreement (CBA for short) administered by E Tū, and like the aircraft, there are peculiarities across each agreement, including the number of roles and their descriptions, terms and conditions, let alone salaries and allowances, management etc,

(3) to get the 787 unique crew established, Air NZ had to make the 787 roles have substantive difference (I understand this to be greater than 15% but I don't have proof of this) to the 777 roles otherwise the union would not agree to a separate CBA and this meant sweetening the deal by grandfathering the then exisiting 777 cabin crew's "better than proposed for the 787" remuneration and allowances and giving these grandfathered crew last in first off protection in times of redundancy, to be applied "by rank" across both fleets,

(4) the 777 has four ranks and the 787 has 3. Neither aircraft has ranks which are like for like, and finally

(5) New Zealand labour law is clear. In times of redundancy, the law requires an employee's role (i.e. the job not the person) to be surplus to requirement before an employee can be made redundant or redeployed etc. If the role is retained and an employee is removed, it becomes a termination / dismissal process, which is quite different.

Air NZ has put their proposal to both the 777 and 787 crew. Air NZ has interpreted the grandfathered redundancy clause of "last in first off" to mean the 600 odd 777 grandfathered crew on the 777 will replace all 550 odd crew required for 787 retained roles. The Air NZ proposal does not appear to comply with NZ labour laws and to the matter of cabin crew rank.

I hope this clarifies matters for the readers and the complexities can be worked through to give both sets or cabin crew a just outcome.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:35 pm
by ltbewr
First of all, where does NZ operate their 777's to ? Mainly Asia, especially China ? If so, they may be saying they don't expect or don't want tourists from China or anywhere near it for the foreseeable future.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:41 pm
by zkncj
Cubsrule wrote:
zkncj wrote:
All it would take is one group of tourists on hoilday with it to cause another outbreak.


The whole problem with New Zealand’s approach is that there is no - literally zero - evidence that this is true (cruise passengers excepted).


https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases#transmission
Currently Cases in New Zealand - 1409
Contact with known case 54%
Recent overseas travel 39%
Community transmission 3%
Source under investigation 3%

Currently the major source of COVID-19 in New Zealand is linked directly overseas travel at 39%, which then that resulted in 54% of cases caused by people with close contact with an confirmed cause e.g. and family member or an work mate.

As it stands currently the biggest risk of covid-19 in New Zealand is people with recent overseas travel, hence the stance of restricting oversea travel for the time being.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:47 pm
by zkncj
ltbewr wrote:
First of all, where does NZ operate their 777's to ? Mainly Asia, especially China ? If so, they may be saying they don't expect or don't want tourists from China or anywhere near it for the foreseeable future.


The 77E/77W fleet current were mainly used for: LAX, SFO, YVR, IAH, LHR (ends OCT20), EZE, SYD, MEL, BNE, ADL, PER, RAR, NAN, TBU, APW, NRT, PVG, HKG

Basically anywhere on the network that they we're needed some of the above routes are operated by an mix of 320/321/77E/77W/789s depending on demand (which can change month to month)

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:48 pm
by Cubsrule
zkncj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
zkncj wrote:
All it would take is one group of tourists on hoilday with it to cause another outbreak.


The whole problem with New Zealand’s approach is that there is no - literally zero - evidence that this is true (cruise passengers excepted).


https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases#transmission
Currently Cases in New Zealand - 1409
Contact with known case 54%
Recent overseas travel 39%
Community transmission 3%
Source under investigation 3%

Currently the major source of COVID-19 in New Zealand is linked directly overseas travel at 39%, which then that resulted in 54% of cases caused by people with close contact with an confirmed cause e.g. and family member or an work mate.

As it stands currently the biggest risk of covid-19 in New Zealand is people with recent overseas travel, hence the stance of restricting oversea travel for the time being.


You’ve proven that international travelers can carry disease. But that’s true everywhere, of all diseases. I imagine New Zealand had some SARS, for instance. What you haven’t proven - and I don’t think you can - is that a group of tourists to New Zealand can cause an outbreak.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:00 pm
by arcticcruiser
Kiwiscanfly2 wrote:
The title of this stream is possibly a little premature.

Air NZ has begun a consultation with their 1,550 wide body (aircraft least anyone is confused) cabin crew as their forward planning through 2021 suggests there are some 1,000 roles which are surplus to the plan. This might at first sight seem like an easy task given there are some 1,550 cabin crew across the 777 and 787 fleets. There are however complexities which go into the pot. Five key items are.

(1) each aircraft has its own unique set of cabin crew, specifically employed, trained, rewarded, managed and assessed on their specific 787 or 777 aircraft,

(2) each unique set of cabin crew has their own unionised collective bargaining agreement (CBA for short) administered by E Tū, and like the aircraft, there are peculiarities across each agreement, including the number of roles and their descriptions, terms and conditions, let alone salaries and allowances, management etc,

(3) to get the 787 unique crew established, Air NZ had to make the 787 roles have substantive difference (I understand this to be greater than 15% but I don't have proof of this) to the 777 roles otherwise the union would not agree to a separate CBA and this meant sweetening the deal by grandfathering the then exisiting 777 cabin crew's "better than proposed for the 787" remuneration and allowances and giving these grandfathered crew last in first off protection in times of redundancy, to be applied "by rank" across both fleets,

(4) the 777 has four ranks and the 787 has 3. Neither aircraft has ranks which are like for like, and finally

(5) New Zealand labour law is clear. In times of redundancy, the law requires an employee's role (i.e. the job not the person) to be surplus to requirement before an employee can be made redundant or redeployed etc. If the role is retained and an employee is removed, it becomes a termination / dismissal process, which is quite different.

Air NZ has put their proposal to both the 777 and 787 crew. Air NZ has interpreted the grandfathered redundancy clause of "last in first off" to mean the 600 odd 777 grandfathered crew on the 777 will replace all 550 odd crew required for 787 retained roles. The Air NZ proposal does not appear to comply with NZ labour laws and to the matter of cabin crew rank.

I hope this clarifies matters for the readers and the complexities can be worked through to give both sets or cabin crew a just outcome.


And I thought our cabin crew contracts were complicated...

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:07 pm
by NZ516
There is so many different categories of cabin staff. Here is the breakdown of each group affected:

Air New Zealand job cuts:
Inflight service managers - Cut from 87 to 70
Deputy service managers - Cut from 72 to 70
Flight attendants - Cut from 514 to 443
Flight service managers - Cut from 98 to 0
Inflight service coordinators - Cut from 79 to 0
Flight attendant premium services - Cut from 367 to 0
Pacific class cabin crews - Cut from 316 to 0


From:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2 ... izing.html

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:12 pm
by nine4nine
So sad for them. I take NZ1and NZ2 frequently between LAX and LHR and the crews and service have always been phenomenal. I was sad it was getting axed this October but now this....

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:16 pm
by NZ516
Air NZ will have more than enough capacity so won't need their 777 fleet for some time. All long haul flying can be covered with just 6 787s from July so that still leaves 8 spare. But more schedule changes are expected.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:41 pm
by zkncj
nine4nine wrote:
So sad for them. I take NZ1and NZ2 frequently between LAX and LHR and the crews and service have always been phenomenal. I was sad it was getting axed this October but now this....


LAX-LHR was operated by the LHR crew base, which had around 120 cabin crew (they we're meant to finish in October) however they we're let go early last month.

NZ516 wrote:
Air NZ will have more than enough capacity so won't need their 777 fleet for some time. All long haul flying can be covered with just 6 787s from July so that still leaves 8 spare. But more schedule changes are expected.


4x 77E are leased with which are coming up to the end of their terms, would expect these will have their leased terminated shortly.
4x 77E are owned I would expect this may get converted into freighters if an viable 77E BCF programme is launched, there is still an massive demand on airfreight in/out of New Zealand.

With the 789s they are keep pretty busy without the passengers at the moment, going on freight runs (with the currently fuel prices too) the must be working out ok going freight only runs. Often two of them will depart to PVG minutes apart most days the of the week on freight runs.

With the 77W's now they have finished up the passenger charters they are still getting an bunch of cargo work, maybe the lease ones will go with the owned ones staying around for now. Maybe with the seats removed like AC.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:50 pm
by LYuen
chonetsao wrote:
Do they mean B777-200 or B777-300? Currently there are 8 each. If they are going to do with the whole fleet of B772 and B773, that is half of their long haul fleet!

I don't see them decommission their B777-300ER fleet. There is no aircraft in their fleet can replace them. B789 is too premium light compare with the B777-300ER.

However, I can totally see them get rid of B777-200ER as the B787-10 will arrive in 2022 to replace B777-200ER. Assume there is no growth in 2020 and 2021, 8 B777-200ER seems to be a good idea to get rid of.

The article says there will be no B777 flying before April 2021, implying that New Zealand is giving up the entire summer peak season. Then the earliest time Air New Zealand may need a large aircraft will be northern winter 2021-22

And that Air NZ is receiving the 787-10 in 2022, the gap they may have a large/premium aircraft shortage is short (there can probably be no shortage as aviation demand may not recover so soon).

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:12 am
by LYuen
Cubsrule wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I hear that point, but the problem with it is that their position isn't really rooted in science. If I'm in Indonesia (or wherever) and the chances that I am infected are essentially zero, why shouldn't I be permitted to travel to New Zealand? The government is seemingly taking a position that will kill the travel and tourism sector and, at least judging from these layoffs, isn't supporting those sectors correspondingly.


I guess you are lucky in that, those who you physically interact with have been tested including yourself and the results were negative.

Or you live by yourself (like me), have been tested (unlike me) and live in a complete lockdown city/country (unlike me), in that every interaction with any person on your journey to New Zealand has been tested or is immune to it.

If all the above is true, then I guess you are the type of tourist that New Zealand wants.


To the contrary, I'm virtually certain that I have interacted with infected people. But I'm lucky to live in a place where the transmission number is now (finally) below 1, and as far as I know I haven't been infected. There are lots and lots of people like me out there.

There is enough evidence to show that an asymptomatic person can carry the virus and can infect others. It is irresponsible to consider yourselves not infected as you have no symptoms (yet) and continue social interaction, as this can ultimately spread the virus to groups who are more vulnerable to it.

For the case in New Zealand, there are many clusters that are rest homes. The origins of these clusters can be asymptomatic covid19 carriers.

About the evidence of international travellers can cause an outbreak, an Air NZ crew is linked to an outbreak cluster of 96.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... eply-upset

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:37 am
by zkeoj
Cubsrule wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The whole problem with New Zealand’s approach is that there is no - literally zero - evidence that this is true (cruise passengers excepted).


https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases#transmission
Currently Cases in New Zealand - 1409
Contact with known case 54%
Recent overseas travel 39%
Community transmission 3%
Source under investigation 3%

Currently the major source of COVID-19 in New Zealand is linked directly overseas travel at 39%, which then that resulted in 54% of cases caused by people with close contact with an confirmed cause e.g. and family member or an work mate.

As it stands currently the biggest risk of covid-19 in New Zealand is people with recent overseas travel, hence the stance of restricting oversea travel for the time being.


You’ve proven that international travelers can carry disease. But that’s true everywhere, of all diseases. I imagine New Zealand had some SARS, for instance. What you haven’t proven - and I don’t think you can - is that a group of tourists to New Zealand can cause an outbreak.



Aoteroa closed its borders early. We have 1409 cases (582 active!) and 11 death. I prefer this over 709,590 cases (61,1934 active!) and 37,146 deaths). Granted, these are totally different countries with vastly different populations. But yesterday, we had 8 new cases. It's going down rapidly - thanks to closing borders and to a very strict lock down. And no matter how you twist and turn it - our biggest risk is indeed inbound travellers, and yes, they can cause an outbreak.

Why don't you just let NZ do their thing and be happy where you are, since you know better than our government? We will get through this one way or the other, and I prefer the way our government is going over the the way the US government is going. There will be economic hardship, but guess what - the US will have tremendous economic hardship as well.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:51 am
by Cubsrule
zkeoj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
zkncj wrote:

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases#transmission
Currently Cases in New Zealand - 1409
Contact with known case 54%
Recent overseas travel 39%
Community transmission 3%
Source under investigation 3%

Currently the major source of COVID-19 in New Zealand is linked directly overseas travel at 39%, which then that resulted in 54% of cases caused by people with close contact with an confirmed cause e.g. and family member or an work mate.

As it stands currently the biggest risk of covid-19 in New Zealand is people with recent overseas travel, hence the stance of restricting oversea travel for the time being.


You’ve proven that international travelers can carry disease. But that’s true everywhere, of all diseases. I imagine New Zealand had some SARS, for instance. What you haven’t proven - and I don’t think you can - is that a group of tourists to New Zealand can cause an outbreak.



Aoteroa closed its borders early. We have 1409 cases (582 active!) and 11 death. I prefer this over 709,590 cases (61,1934 active!) and 37,146 deaths). Granted, these are totally different countries with vastly different populations. But yesterday, we had 8 new cases. It's going down rapidly - thanks to closing borders and to a very strict lock down. And no matter how you twist and turn it - our biggest risk is indeed inbound travellers, and yes, they can cause an outbreak.

Why don't you just let NZ do their thing and be happy where you are, since you know better than our government? We will get through this one way or the other, and I prefer the way our government is going over the the way the US government is going. There will be economic hardship, but guess what - the US will have tremendous economic hardship as well.


As you say, if New Zealand wants to close its borders, that’s it’s business. But as an aviation fan - as I expect you are or you wouldn’t be here - I’d like to see the government acknowledge and ameliorate the effect its policies have on NZ.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 am
by zkeoj
Cubsrule wrote:
zkeoj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

You’ve proven that international travelers can carry disease. But that’s true everywhere, of all diseases. I imagine New Zealand had some SARS, for instance. What you haven’t proven - and I don’t think you can - is that a group of tourists to New Zealand can cause an outbreak.



Aoteroa closed its borders early. We have 1409 cases (582 active!) and 11 death. I prefer this over 709,590 cases (61,1934 active!) and 37,146 deaths). Granted, these are totally different countries with vastly different populations. But yesterday, we had 8 new cases. It's going down rapidly - thanks to closing borders and to a very strict lock down. And no matter how you twist and turn it - our biggest risk is indeed inbound travellers, and yes, they can cause an outbreak.

Why don't you just let NZ do their thing and be happy where you are, since you know better than our government? We will get through this one way or the other, and I prefer the way our government is going over the the way the US government is going. There will be economic hardship, but guess what - the US will have tremendous economic hardship as well.


As you say, if New Zealand wants to close its borders, that’s it’s business. But as an aviation fan - as I expect you are or you wouldn’t be here - I’d like to see the government acknowledge and ameliorate the effect its policies have on NZ.


I am an aviation fan, yes. But I prefer saving lives over flying and spotting privileges. Priorities....

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:57 am
by Cubsrule
zkeoj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
zkeoj wrote:


Aoteroa closed its borders early. We have 1409 cases (582 active!) and 11 death. I prefer this over 709,590 cases (61,1934 active!) and 37,146 deaths). Granted, these are totally different countries with vastly different populations. But yesterday, we had 8 new cases. It's going down rapidly - thanks to closing borders and to a very strict lock down. And no matter how you twist and turn it - our biggest risk is indeed inbound travellers, and yes, they can cause an outbreak.

Why don't you just let NZ do their thing and be happy where you are, since you know better than our government? We will get through this one way or the other, and I prefer the way our government is going over the the way the US government is going. There will be economic hardship, but guess what - the US will have tremendous economic hardship as well.


As you say, if New Zealand wants to close its borders, that’s it’s business. But as an aviation fan - as I expect you are or you wouldn’t be here - I’d like to see the government acknowledge and ameliorate the effect its policies have on NZ.


I am an aviation fan, yes. But I prefer saving lives over flying and spotting privileges. Priorities....


Reread what I said. Nowhere did I suggest reopening borders so that NZ benefits. I was thinking of monetary support.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:05 am
by zkeoj
Cubsrule wrote:
zkeoj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

As you say, if New Zealand wants to close its borders, that’s it’s business. But as an aviation fan - as I expect you are or you wouldn’t be here - I’d like to see the government acknowledge and ameliorate the effect its policies have on NZ.


I am an aviation fan, yes. But I prefer saving lives over flying and spotting privileges. Priorities....


Reread what I said. Nowhere did I suggest reopening borders so that NZ benefits. I was thinking of monetary support.


No, you kept repeating that there is no evidence that one traveller/tourist coming into NZ could spark an outbreak. zkncj gave you evidence, but that doesn't matter to your opinion. I'll leave it at that - no need to keep going in circles.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:11 am
by Cubsrule
zkeoj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
zkeoj wrote:

I am an aviation fan, yes. But I prefer saving lives over flying and spotting privileges. Priorities....


Reread what I said. Nowhere did I suggest reopening borders so that NZ benefits. I was thinking of monetary support.


No, you kept repeating that there is no evidence that one traveller/tourist coming into NZ could spark an outbreak. zkncj gave you evidence, but that doesn't matter to your opinion. I'll leave it at that - no need to keep going in circles.


Actually, I’ve made the two points separately. I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong. But I also think that if they are going to pursue that policy, they ought to support the industries they are hurting. You can agree with one without agreeing with the other. In the US, we’ve done a much better job of economic support than of public health intervention. New Zealand seems like perhaps the opposite, at least as to the airline industry.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:26 am
by zkncj
Cubsrule wrote:
zkeoj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Reread what I said. Nowhere did I suggest reopening borders so that NZ benefits. I was thinking of monetary support.


No, you kept repeating that there is no evidence that one traveller/tourist coming into NZ could spark an outbreak. zkncj gave you evidence, but that doesn't matter to your opinion. I'll leave it at that - no need to keep going in circles.


Actually, I’ve made the two points separately. I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong. But I also think that if they are going to pursue that policy, they ought to support the industries they are hurting. You can agree with one without agreeing with the other. In the US, we’ve done a much better job of economic support than of public health intervention. New Zealand seems like perhaps the opposite, at least as to the airline industry.


NZ is 52% owned by the New Zealand Government, therefore the Government is more than aware of the impacts this is currently having on NZ. They have provided NZ with an loan of $900million NZD to help them with credit in the short term. They have also given NZ an $70m NZD wage subsidy to cover 10,228 employed to keep them employed for the next 12 weeks (this is not an loan, and any Business in New Zealand can freely get $600/week per full time worker, if the companies income is down 30%).

Yes there are going to be job losses, especially in the travel industry at the moment. Thankfully allot of the workers in tourism industry in New Zealand are on short-term visas (e.g working holidays etc) who have now returned to there home countries.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:34 am
by Cubsrule
zkncj wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
zkeoj wrote:

No, you kept repeating that there is no evidence that one traveller/tourist coming into NZ could spark an outbreak. zkncj gave you evidence, but that doesn't matter to your opinion. I'll leave it at that - no need to keep going in circles.


Actually, I’ve made the two points separately. I think the New Zealand government policy of effective total border closure is wrong. But I also think that if they are going to pursue that policy, they ought to support the industries they are hurting. You can agree with one without agreeing with the other. In the US, we’ve done a much better job of economic support than of public health intervention. New Zealand seems like perhaps the opposite, at least as to the airline industry.


NZ is 52% owned by the New Zealand Government, therefore the Government is more than aware of the impacts this is currently having on NZ. They have provided NZ with an loan of $900million NZD to help them with credit in the short term. They have also given NZ an $70m NZD wage subsidy to cover 10,228 employed to keep them employed for the next 12 weeks (this is not an loan, and any Business in New Zealand can freely get $600/week per full time worker, if the companies income is down 30%).

Yes there are going to be job losses, especially in the travel industry at the moment. Thankfully allot of the workers in tourism industry in New Zealand are on short-term visas (e.g working holidays etc) who have now returned to there home countries.


“Go home so we don’t have to support you” is a sensible policy?

Remind me not to wade into New Zealand politics again.

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:06 am
by aemoreira1981
Has NZ announced an interim NW20 schedule yet? I suspect that a lot of North American flying will be postponed until NS21 at least, including the launch of EWR.

Regarding NZ fleeting, this is their wide-body fleet matrix:
B772: 8 frames (4 owned, 4 leased), between 13 and 15 years old. I would not be surprised to see these leave the fleet once the B78X frames arrive.
B77W: 8 frames (3 owned, 4 dry-leased, 1 damp-leased). Based on how they haul cargo, I see these frames staying. These are between 6 and 10 years old (including the BR-owned frame). I expect these to stay, minus the BR-owned frame. I also can't see NZ doing exclusive cargo runs.
B789: 14 frames (12 owned, 2 leased); NZ has 2 of the 3 prototype B789 frames

Also, does NZ have the LD3-45, which could enable a large-scale down-gauging of most trans-Tasman flying to narrow-bodies?

Re: Air New Zealand Plans To Axe All Boeing 777 Crew

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:24 am
by zkncj
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Has NZ announced an interim NW20 schedule yet? I suspect that a lot of North American flying will be postponed until NS21 at least, including the launch of EWR.


Everything is still on sale at the moment, though the flights may not happen but that call hasn’t been made yet. They have only published changes until June 30 2020.

Regarding NZ fleeting, this is their wide-body fleet matrix:
B772: 8 frames (4 owned, 4 leased), between 13 and 15 years old. I would not be surprised to see these leave the fleet once the B78X frames arrive.

The plan has always been that the 77W would leave with the 78X arrive, that is there one for one replacement.

B77W: 8 frames (3 owned, 4 dry-leased, 1 damp-leased). Based on how they haul cargo, I see these frames staying. These are between 6 and 10 years old (including the BR-owned frame). I expect these to stay, minus the BR-owned frame. I also can't see NZ doing exclusive cargo runs.
B789: 14 frames (12 owned, 2 leased); NZ has 2 of the 3 prototype B789 frames

The BR 77W has been returned, it was already planned to be returned in April this year so worked out well.

The 777/787s are all rest doing exclusive cargo runs, in fact they have been going to China up to 5x daily (inc HKG/TPE) just for the freight.

Also, does NZ have the LD3-45, which could enable a large-scale down-gauging of most trans-Tasman flying to narrow-bodies?


They use the LD3-45 on most a320/321 flights, they have the ability to bulk load for some the Islands when required.

This wouldn’t been engough to cover the daily cargo demands between the two countries. They have been flying 777/787 still from AKL/CHC on purely cargo flights.