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dennypayne
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Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:42 am

I never saw any of the Western Airlines 'Chieftain' liveries in person, and I'm curious to know from any of you that did: Was the top of the fuselage white or more of a cream/ivory color? Or maybe both, depending on date? I've not been able to discern the answer from photos I've found (including these below and on other sites), since they are necessarily older and potentially not reflective of the true color. What say you?


A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
 
WAL727247
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:34 am

Western used a very light beige with the Indian Head livery. When they revised their color scheme to the flying W swizzle stick, a much brighter white was used.
 
WAL727247
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:36 am

Crème is a better description.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:31 pm

WAL727247 wrote:
Crème is a better description.


Mmm I like crème brûlée :lol: Thanks for the info!
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:35 pm

What about the old reliable Western DC-3s ?

Frontier 14
 
ss278
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:30 pm

The upper fuselage was always a creme' color (DC-4's, 6's, Constellations) however IIRC, the original 707's delivered in the early 60's were white. These were stop-gap airplanes until the 720B's were delivered. The 707's were originally destined for Cubana - and had a white-top fusleage. The order was not taken up after the Castro revolution.

I believe the DC-3's, Convairs (and some DC-4s) were bare metal with a red cheatline and red Chieftain logo.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm

WAL727247 wrote:
When they revised their color scheme to the flying W swizzle stick, a much brighter white was used.


Indeed, it shows when you have the two liveries side by side.

WAL727247 wrote:
Crème is a better description.


Yes, tha's better.


Funny how Western has kept a minimalist tail design over the decades. No big logo, be it a shape or a letter.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:47 pm

Incredibly stylish airline. I wrote the Haynes owners workshop manual for the 707 and made sure there were pictures of both the Indian Head and Big W livery in there.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:30 pm

I always thought the Indian Head tail design looked terrible on the 727-200s. I think it would have looked better if the red color had extended all the way down to the bottom of the #2 engine inlet.

In the late 1960s, Western ordered several 747s, which were cancelled before delivery. Imagine how good the indian head scheme would have looked on a 747?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:43 pm

The indian head was kind of dated, but still much better than the "swizzle stick" design that followed . The 'Bud Lite" design was the best IMO, but short lived due to the Delta merger. It would hve been impressive to see eitherr the 720 or 707 with that paint scheme.
 
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rj968
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:49 pm

ss278 wrote:
The upper fuselage was always a creme' color (DC-4's, 6's, Constellations) however IIRC, the original 707's delivered in the early 60's were white. These were stop-gap airplanes until the 720B's were delivered. The 707's were originally destined for Cubana - and had a white-top fusleage. The order was not taken up after the Castro revolution.

I believe the DC-3's, Convairs (and some DC-4s) were bare metal with a red cheatline and red Chieftain logo.


Definitely a light cream or “eggshell white” as noted above. A few of the diecast model companies even got it right. I never really noticed in person until I saw one taxing in a fresh snow, then it looked dirty!

The DC-3, DC-4 CV240 and DC-6B post WW2 colors had the chief riding in the back. I don’t think anyone referred to this as the Chieftain scheme. The 6’s were delivered in 1953 with a “white” top, the other’s got the white top around the same time.



The first scheme I saw referred to as Chieftain was this one starting in 1956. Some DC-3 and DC-4 got it. All the Convairs and DC-6B got this scheme.



In 1959 the Electras and the two leased Cubana 707-139’s (1960) had a modified version, still with a wide red stripe.



With delivery of the 720B in 1961 came the most common Chieftain colors shown in the first post. The only pistons to get this one were the DC-6B and Connie.

RJ968
 
TW870
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:19 am

I love that scheme on the ex-PNA Connies.

I never noticed they flew the L749 with the speedpak. It makes sense as the Alaska routes to outlying destinations would have been heavy with cargo, especially as they were mostly short bounces. The Connies lasted pretty long - I think through the 1970 high season. Just for fun, here is the 1968 high season Connie schedule out of Anchorage:

1x Cordova-Yakutat-Juneau
1x Homer-Kodiak
1x Homer-King Salmon
1x Kenai-Homer-Kodiak
1x King Salmon
6x Kenai
 
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rj968
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:17 pm

TW870 wrote:
I love that scheme on the ex-PNA Connies.

I never noticed they flew the L749 with the speedpak. It makes sense as the Alaska routes to outlying destinations would have been heavy with cargo, especially as they were mostly short bounces. The Connies lasted pretty long - I think through the 1970 high season. Just for fun, here is the 1968 high season Connie schedule out of Anchorage:

1x Cordova-Yakutat-Juneau
1x Homer-Kodiak
1x Homer-King Salmon
1x Kenai-Homer-Kodiak
1x King Salmon
6x Kenai


The last Western Connie scheduled flight was on Nov 26 1968. I was in Alaska at the time an saved an article from Air Progress Magazine. I knew I’d need that some day! Now, only 50 years later I can report.

It was WAL flight 1, Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage. I don’t know if they used flight #1 for nostalgia reasons, or if WA kept the old PNA flight numbers from the merger the year before. On board was Arthur Woodley, PNA’s founder and WAL Vice President – Alaska, at the time.

The aircraft was N86525 that had flown for four different airlines that are part of Delta’s history. New to Chicago & Southern, merged into Delta (Delta-C&S), sold to Pacific Northern and finally to Western in July 67.

I had forgotten about that ANC-HOM-AKN flight, I hand flown that one into King Salmon in June ’68.

The SpeedPak’s were normal, but I did see one occasionally without it.

Fond old memories.

RJ968
 
TW870
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:29 pm

rj968 wrote:
[
It was WAL flight 1, Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage. I don’t know if they used flight #1 for nostalgia reasons, or if WA kept the old PNA flight numbers from the merger the year before. On board was Arthur Woodley, PNA’s founder and WAL Vice President – Alaska, at the time.

The aircraft was N86525 that had flown for four different airlines that are part of Delta’s history. New to Chicago & Southern, merged into Delta (Delta-C&S), sold to Pacific Northern and finally to Western in July 67.

I had forgotten about that ANC-HOM-AKN flight, I hand flown that one into King Salmon in June ’68.

The SpeedPak’s were normal, but I did see one occasionally without it.

Fond old memories.

RJ968


Great info! Nope, flight 1 was not a nostalgia number. For the schedule I cited from earlier that year, flights 1 and 2 were Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage and back. It is striking that Western left the lower flight numbers to the PNA operation. I would have thought they would have re-numbered with the MSP-West Coast 707 flights getting the lower numbers.

Did the Electras go up to Alaska to replace the Connies, or did they go right to the 737? I grew up in MSP, so I was looking at the MSP schedule. During the summer of '68, they were in the process of phasing in the 737 to replace the Electra on the MSP-South Dakota-Wyoming-Colorado-Utah milk runs. How late did the Electra make it?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:11 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
IIn the late 1960s, Western ordered several 747s, which were cancelled before delivery. Imagine how good the indian head scheme would have looked on a 747?


Would have they received the Chieftain livery or already the swizzlestick? When was it introduced?
 
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mbmbos
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:27 pm

When I was five years old my mother, sister and I took a flight from DEN - MSP. Can't be sure but even at five I knew how to count engines, so I believe we were flying on a 720.

The only other thing I know about the flight was that we had a tight connection from ABQ (Continental DC-9-14) and when we boarded the Western Airlines plane there was no place where we could sit together. The FA asked the passengers to switch but no one would come forward. So my mom placed me in a middle seat between two businessmen in suits and ties. I spilled Coke all over one of the businessmen and my mother couldn't have been more delighted.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:39 pm

mbmbos wrote:

So my mom placed me in a middle seat between two businessmen in suits and ties. I spilled Coke all over one of the businessmen and my mother couldn't have been more delighted.


We're brothers from another Mother! The identical thing happened to me.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:59 pm

When Western started using the W on their livery, I used to call them Winnebagos after the RVs built and titled Winnebago, which had a large W logo on the side. It was located in Winnebago, Iowa. Also when I was in Alaska in Sept of 1972 there was a direct Western Lockheed Constellation stored out of the way at the Anchorage, Alaska airport. I later learned that when Western flew their Constellations they carried a barrel oil as the engines burned and leaked oil and always need topping off. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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rj968
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:35 pm

TW870 wrote:
rj968 wrote:
[
It was WAL flight 1, Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage. I don’t know if they used flight #1 for nostalgia reasons, or if WA kept the old PNA flight numbers from the merger the year before. On board was Arthur Woodley, PNA’s founder and WAL Vice President – Alaska, at the time.

The aircraft was N86525 that had flown for four different airlines that are part of Delta’s history. New to Chicago & Southern, merged into Delta (Delta-C&S), sold to Pacific Northern and finally to Western in July 67.

I had forgotten about that ANC-HOM-AKN flight, I hand flown that one into King Salmon in June ’68.

The SpeedPak’s were normal, but I did see one occasionally without it.

Fond old memories.

RJ968


Great info! Nope, flight 1 was not a nostalgia number. For the schedule I cited from earlier that year, flights 1 and 2 were Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage and back. It is striking that Western left the lower flight numbers to the PNA operation. I would have thought they would have re-numbered with the MSP-West Coast 707 flights getting the lower numbers.

Did the Electras go up to Alaska to replace the Connies, or did they go right to the 737? I grew up in MSP, so I was looking at the MSP schedule. During the summer of '68, they were in the process of phasing in the 737 to replace the Electra on the MSP-South Dakota-Wyoming-Colorado-Utah milk runs. How late did the Electra make it?


WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.

 
bohica
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:46 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
I always thought the Indian Head tail design looked terrible on the 727-200s. I think it would have looked better if the red color had extended all the way down to the bottom of the #2 engine inlet.


The placement of the indian head livery at the top of the tail of the 727 looked awful. It should have been lower.

Can someone tell me if this is urban legend or truth? I heard that the executives at WA were in disagreement about the placement of the indian head livery on the tail of the 727's. They decided they needed a new livery that would be consistent on all aircraft types. That's when they introduced the swizzle stick livery.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:39 am

rj968 wrote:
ss278 wrote:
The upper fuselage was always a creme' color (DC-4's, 6's, Constellations) however IIRC, the original 707's delivered in the early 60's were white. These were stop-gap airplanes until the 720B's were delivered. The 707's were originally destined for Cubana - and had a white-top fusleage. The order was not taken up after the Castro revolution.

I believe the DC-3's, Convairs (and some DC-4s) were bare metal with a red cheatline and red Chieftain logo.


Definitely a light cream or “eggshell white” as noted above. A few of the diecast model companies even got it right. I never really noticed in person until I saw one taxing in a fresh snow, then it looked dirty!

The DC-3, DC-4 CV240 and DC-6B post WW2 colors had the chief riding in the back. I don’t think anyone referred to this as the Chieftain scheme. The 6’s were delivered in 1953 with a “white” top, the other’s got the white top around the same time.



The first scheme I saw referred to as Chieftain was this one starting in 1956. Some DC-3 and DC-4 got it. All the Convairs and DC-6B got this scheme.



In 1959 the Electras and the two leased Cubana 707-139’s (1960) had a modified version, still with a wide red stripe.



With delivery of the 720B in 1961 came the most common Chieftain colors shown in the first post. The only pistons to get this one were the DC-6B and Connie.

RJ968


Thanks for the color photos. The Western DC-3 was my second commercial plane ride years ago. The first being on the original Frontier.

Frontier 14
 
mga707
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:54 am

rj968 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
rj968 wrote:
[
It was WAL flight 1, Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage. I don’t know if they used flight #1 for nostalgia reasons, or if WA kept the old PNA flight numbers from the merger the year before. On board was Arthur Woodley, PNA’s founder and WAL Vice President – Alaska, at the time.

The aircraft was N86525 that had flown for four different airlines that are part of Delta’s history. New to Chicago & Southern, merged into Delta (Delta-C&S), sold to Pacific Northern and finally to Western in July 67.

I had forgotten about that ANC-HOM-AKN flight, I hand flown that one into King Salmon in June ’68.

The SpeedPak’s were normal, but I did see one occasionally without it.

Fond old memories.

RJ968


Great info! Nope, flight 1 was not a nostalgia number. For the schedule I cited from earlier that year, flights 1 and 2 were Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage and back. It is striking that Western left the lower flight numbers to the PNA operation. I would have thought they would have re-numbered with the MSP-West Coast 707 flights getting the lower numbers.

Did the Electras go up to Alaska to replace the Connies, or did they go right to the 737? I grew up in MSP, so I was looking at the MSP schedule. During the summer of '68, they were in the process of phasing in the 737 to replace the Electra on the MSP-South Dakota-Wyoming-Colorado-Utah milk runs. How late did the Electra make it?


WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.



Also,about the same time as Western retired the ex-PNA L-749s, they dropped some of the ex-Pacific Northern smaller stations: Cordova, Yakutat (not 'Takutat'), Kenai, Homer, and King Salmon. The ANC-CDV-YKT-JNU route was transferred (with the CAB's approval) to Alaska Airlines (who fly it to this day), while the Kenai Peninsula routes, King Salmon, and (I believe) Anchorage-Kodiak service went to Wien Consolidated. Western then pulled out of Juneau and Ketchikan (Annette Island Airport) in 1972. Surprisingly, they continued to fly (several times per week) the Seattle-Kodiak route until the early 1980s. Must've been good cargo revenue on that flight.
On a personal note, my Dad and myself flew Western to and from Alaska in August of 1971. Seattle Anchorage and Anchorage-Juneau were on 720Bs, while our Juneau-Annette Island-Seattle return flight was on one of the ex-PNA turbojet 720s.
 
b4thefall
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:05 am

People nowadays often complain about the simplification of airline liveries ( Aer Lingus for example). What did people think back then, when liveries such as the Western "Indian head" livery were replaced by quite simple liveries like the "swizzle stick" ?
 
TW870
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:29 am

rj968 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
rj968 wrote:
[
It was WAL flight 1, Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage. I don’t know if they used flight #1 for nostalgia reasons, or if WA kept the old PNA flight numbers from the merger the year before. On board was Arthur Woodley, PNA’s founder and WAL Vice President – Alaska, at the time.

The aircraft was N86525 that had flown for four different airlines that are part of Delta’s history. New to Chicago & Southern, merged into Delta (Delta-C&S), sold to Pacific Northern and finally to Western in July 67.

I had forgotten about that ANC-HOM-AKN flight, I hand flown that one into King Salmon in June ’68.

The SpeedPak’s were normal, but I did see one occasionally without it.

Fond old memories.

RJ968


Great info! Nope, flight 1 was not a nostalgia number. For the schedule I cited from earlier that year, flights 1 and 2 were Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage and back. It is striking that Western left the lower flight numbers to the PNA operation. I would have thought they would have re-numbered with the MSP-West Coast 707 flights getting the lower numbers.

Did the Electras go up to Alaska to replace the Connies, or did they go right to the 737? I grew up in MSP, so I was looking at the MSP schedule. During the summer of '68, they were in the process of phasing in the 737 to replace the Electra on the MSP-South Dakota-Wyoming-Colorado-Utah milk runs. How late did the Electra make it?


WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.



Interesting. So then how long did the Electras last in Alaska? According to mga707's post above, it sounds like they transferred most of the smaller PNA routes to Alaska/Wien. Did that mean that the Electra operation was short lived? The Electra was such a great, rugged aircraft for all the short haul routes. But the industry was in flux in that era, and my guess is that the cost of a 3-pilot airplane at major airline pay scales to very small stations worked against continued service on those legacy DC-3 routes from an earlier period of aviation history. It is also interesting that some of those same stations are being served by Everts DC-6s today, 52 years after the Western Connies were phased out.
 
mga707
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:37 am

TW870 wrote:
rj968 wrote:
TW870 wrote:

Great info! Nope, flight 1 was not a nostalgia number. For the schedule I cited from earlier that year, flights 1 and 2 were Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage and back. It is striking that Western left the lower flight numbers to the PNA operation. I would have thought they would have re-numbered with the MSP-West Coast 707 flights getting the lower numbers.

Did the Electras go up to Alaska to replace the Connies, or did they go right to the 737? I grew up in MSP, so I was looking at the MSP schedule. During the summer of '68, they were in the process of phasing in the 737 to replace the Electra on the MSP-South Dakota-Wyoming-Colorado-Utah milk runs. How late did the Electra make it?


WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.



Interesting. So then how long did the Electras last in Alaska? According to mga707's post above, it sounds like they transferred most of the smaller PNA routes to Alaska/Wien. Did that mean that the Electra operation was short lived? The Electra was such a great, rugged aircraft for all the short haul routes. But the industry was in flux in that era, and my guess is that the cost of a 3-pilot airplane at major airline pay scales to very small stations worked against continued service on those legacy DC-3 routes from an earlier period of aviation history. It is also interesting that some of those same stations are being served by Everts DC-6s today, 52 years after the Western Connies were phased out.


My July 1, 1971 Western timetable (from the time of my trip that I mention above) shows only the Seattle-Kodiak flight as being operated by the Electra (shown as 'L-188JET' in the timetable). By the following summer, July 1, 1972, that flight is shown simply as 'JET', so the last passenger Electra service was sometime between those two dates. My next oldest Western timetable is from summer 1967, right after the PNA acquisition, so the Constellations were still in service. Would love to see a late 1968 or 1969 Western timetable to see whether the Electra actually replaced the Connie at those other, smaller stations, or if Western discontinued all service to them when they retired the L-749s in late 1968.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1906
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:56 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
IIn the late 1960s, Western ordered several 747s, which were cancelled before delivery. Imagine how good the indian head scheme would have looked on a 747?


Would have they received the Chieftain livery or already the swizzlestick? When was it introduced?


Although it would have been nice to see a 747-147 in the Chieftan livery, Western's 1970 annual report has the swizzle stick logo on it, so the 747s would almost certainly have been delivered in the swizzle stick scheme.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:58 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
When Western started using the W on their livery, I used to call them Winnebagos after the RVs built and titled Winnebago, which had a large W logo on the side. It was located in Winnebago, Iowa.


You aren't the only person who felt that way.

Winnebago filed a trademark infringement lawsuit against Western Airlines, because Winnebago felt Western's logo was too similar to Winnebago's. Winnebago lost the lawsuit.
 
mga707
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:02 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
IIn the late 1960s, Western ordered several 747s, which were cancelled before delivery. Imagine how good the indian head scheme would have looked on a 747?


Would have they received the Chieftain livery or already the swizzlestick? When was it introduced?


Although it would have been nice to see a 747-147 in the Chieftan livery, Western's 1970 annual report has the swizzle stick logo on it, so the 747s would almost certainly have been delivered in the swizzle stick scheme.


On my aforementioned summer 1971 trip via Western to Alaska I remember seeing exactly one aircraft--a 720B--in the then-brand new scheme. I agree that had WA taken delivery of 747s they would have been delivered in the new colors, most likely with the 'too small' titles on the fuselage a la their DC-10s.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:13 pm

mga707 wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Would have they received the Chieftain livery or already the swizzlestick? When was it introduced?


Although it would have been nice to see a 747-147 in the Chieftan livery, Western's 1970 annual report has the swizzle stick logo on it, so the 747s would almost certainly have been delivered in the swizzle stick scheme.


On my aforementioned summer 1971 trip via Western to Alaska I remember seeing exactly one aircraft--a 720B--in the then-brand new scheme. I agree that had WA taken delivery of 747s they would have been delivered in the new colors, most likely with the 'too small' titles on the fuselage a la their DC-10s.


I think Western painted just the one 720B in the swizzle stick livery, then delayed painting any more aircraft into it because of WA's then-pending merger with American. WA did not want to repaint aircraft, only to strip them down to bare metal if the AA merger had gone through. Only after the AA merger was turned down did Western resume converting the fleet to the swizzle stick scheme.
 
TW870
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:03 pm

Love this thread!

Why did Western cancel the 747 order? Was it late enough that the '73 recession hit?

I assume they ordered them while awaiting a decision on the 1969 Pacific Route Case, and would have used them on MSP-LAX-HNL?

On a personal note, my mother flew a Western 707-347C on MSP-LAX-HNL in January 1970 to visit my Dad who had flown into HNL from Da Nang on R+R from Vietnam. Would have been in the chieftain scheme for sure. They had a 3-hour mechanical on the ground at LAX, and she stayed onboard! Long ride on the 707, but she said it was totally empty!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:11 pm

TW870 wrote:
Why did Western cancel the 747 order? Was it late enough that the '73 recession hit?


Have a look here, you'll get the answer: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=554997
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:14 pm

My dad took me along on a business trip to LA and Phoenix in March 1971. I was very young but already Airline-crazy.

On the way home to JFK via TWA, as we awaited our flight in the gate area, there were two Western 720Bs at adjacent gates. One in the old Indian Head livery and the other in the brand new Flying W livery.

I remember when comparing them side-by-side, I thought the Flying W livery was breathtaking. Granted, I was very very young, but I still remain in the minority in thinking it was a major improvement.
 
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rj968
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:15 am

mga707 wrote:
rj968 wrote:
TW870 wrote:

Great info! Nope, flight 1 was not a nostalgia number. For the schedule I cited from earlier that year, flights 1 and 2 were Juneau-Takutat-Cordova-Anchorage and back. It is striking that Western left the lower flight numbers to the PNA operation. I would have thought they would have re-numbered with the MSP-West Coast 707 flights getting the lower numbers.

Did the Electras go up to Alaska to replace the Connies, or did they go right to the 737? I grew up in MSP, so I was looking at the MSP schedule. During the summer of '68, they were in the process of phasing in the 737 to replace the Electra on the MSP-South Dakota-Wyoming-Colorado-Utah milk runs. How late did the Electra make it?


WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.



Also,about the same time as Western retired the ex-PNA L-749s, they dropped some of the ex-Pacific Northern smaller stations: Cordova, Yakutat (not 'Takutat'), Kenai, Homer, and King Salmon. The ANC-CDV-YKT-JNU route was transferred (with the CAB's approval) to Alaska Airlines (who fly it to this day), while the Kenai Peninsula routes, King Salmon, and (I believe) Anchorage-Kodiak service went to Wien Consolidated. Western then pulled out of Juneau and Ketchikan (Annette Island Airport) in 1972. Surprisingly, they continued to fly (several times per week) the Seattle-Kodiak route until the early 1980s. Must've been good cargo revenue on that flight.
On a personal note, my Dad and myself flew Western to and from Alaska in August of 1971. Seattle Anchorage and Anchorage-Juneau were on 720Bs, while our Juneau-Annette Island-Seattle return flight was on one of the ex-PNA turbojet 720s.


I don’t have any WA timetables from 1969-70 (none on Departed Flights either) but Western didn’t drop the smaller Alaska stations with the retirement of the L-749’s. Why else would they have converted the Electra’s to combies and paint Alaska flags on them? Too bad that since the ‘update’ to this site a few years ago I can’t post pictures from my computer. I flew a WA Electra AKN-ANC in June 1969. Wien Consolidated and Western both flew the route when I was there in 68 and 69. Western’s was seasonal, not flying in the Winter that is why you may not see it on some timetables.

I have a Western brochure titled “New Jet Power for Alaska – The Mighty Electra” It’s the size of a timetable with 6 panels front and back. Very interesting to see PNA’s moto “The Alaska Flag Line” on this “Western Airlines International” brochure. Never noticed that before. The brochure shows the Electra’s serving all Alaska stations except Ketchikan, including Seattle.
From the brochure (I’ll try to spell Yakutat with a Y this time!). “WESTERN AIRLINES INTRODUCES ALL JET AND JET-POWERED FLIGHTS THROUGHOUT ALASKA. The new Electra service will offer convenient morning and afternoon departures to and from King Salmon, Kodiak, Homer, and Kenai, with morning Southbound and afternoon Northbound flights between Anchorage, Cordova, Yakutat and Juneau. Plus the first nonstop Jet-powered flights between Seattle and Kodiak.”
No date on the brochure, probably late 68. At least one Electra had been converted before this was printed since there is a photo of the cargo door and you can see the Western stripes.

Oh, and I also thought Winnebago the first time I saw the swizzle. Surprised they lost the lawsuit.

Love this old stuff, probably because I’m old!

RJ968
 
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dennypayne
Topic Author
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:18 am

TW870 wrote:
Love this thread!

rj968 wrote:
Love this old stuff, probably because I’m old!


Thank you all for making this a very interesting thread and such a refreshing change from the usual megathread dreck. :crazy:

rj968 wrote:
Definitely a light cream or “eggshell white” as noted above. A few of the diecast model companies even got it right.


And you've hit on the primary reason I started the thread - gotta make sure my models are correct. :lol:
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
 
mga707
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:19 am

rj968 wrote:
mga707 wrote:
rj968 wrote:

WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.



Also,about the same time as Western retired the ex-PNA L-749s, they dropped some of the ex-Pacific Northern smaller stations: Cordova, Yakutat (not 'Takutat'), Kenai, Homer, and King Salmon. The ANC-CDV-YKT-JNU route was transferred (with the CAB's approval) to Alaska Airlines (who fly it to this day), while the Kenai Peninsula routes, King Salmon, and (I believe) Anchorage-Kodiak service went to Wien Consolidated. Western then pulled out of Juneau and Ketchikan (Annette Island Airport) in 1972. Surprisingly, they continued to fly (several times per week) the Seattle-Kodiak route until the early 1980s. Must've been good cargo revenue on that flight.
On a personal note, my Dad and myself flew Western to and from Alaska in August of 1971. Seattle Anchorage and Anchorage-Juneau were on 720Bs, while our Juneau-Annette Island-Seattle return flight was on one of the ex-PNA turbojet 720s.


I don’t have any WA timetables from 1969-70 (none on Departed Flights either) but Western didn’t drop the smaller Alaska stations with the retirement of the L-749’s. Why else would they have converted the Electra’s to combies and paint Alaska flags on them? Too bad that since the ‘update’ to this site a few years ago I can’t post pictures from my computer. I flew a WA Electra AKN-ANC in June 1969. Wien Consolidated and Western both flew the route when I was there in 68 and 69. Western’s was seasonal, not flying in the Winter that is why you may not see it on some timetables.

I have a Western brochure titled “New Jet Power for Alaska – The Mighty Electra” It’s the size of a timetable with 6 panels front and back. Very interesting to see PNA’s moto “The Alaska Flag Line” on this “Western Airlines International” brochure. Never noticed that before. The brochure shows the Electra’s serving all Alaska stations except Ketchikan, including Seattle.
From the brochure (I’ll try to spell Yakutat with a Y this time!). “WESTERN AIRLINES INTRODUCES ALL JET AND JET-POWERED FLIGHTS THROUGHOUT ALASKA. The new Electra service will offer convenient morning and afternoon departures to and from King Salmon, Kodiak, Homer, and Kenai, with morning Southbound and afternoon Northbound flights between Anchorage, Cordova, Yakutat and Juneau. Plus the first nonstop Jet-powered flights between Seattle and Kodiak.”
No date on the brochure, probably late 68. At least one Electra had been converted before this was printed since there is a photo of the cargo door and you can see the Western stripes.

Oh, and I also thought Winnebago the first time I saw the swizzle. Surprised they lost the lawsuit.

Love this old stuff, probably because I’m old!

RJ968


Thank you for that info. As I said in a post after this one, I am not sure when Western dropped the smaller stations, just that it was sometime between the fall of 1969 (as per your personal recollection) and the July 1971 timetable I have, when the only remaining passenger (combi, actually) Electra flight was the Seattle-Kodiak flight. Would love to see some 1969-70 timetables or OAGs to pin the date down more closely.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:00 am

Frontier14 wrote:
What about the old reliable Western DC-3s ?

Frontier 14


I may be the only one reading this thread who flew on one. 1955. SLC to Jackson Hole Wyoming. I was all of 6 years old.
“Pedantic” defined: spelling “pedantic” “pædantic”.
 
TW870
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:26 am

rj968 wrote:
mga707 wrote:
rj968 wrote:

WA converted 6 Electras to combies as direct replacements for the 6 Connies. Even put Alaska flags on the tail. They could move the partition to change the number of seats vs pallets. They also converted two or three to full freighters that they used around the system.



Also,about the same time as Western retired the ex-PNA L-749s, they dropped some of the ex-Pacific Northern smaller stations: Cordova, Yakutat (not 'Takutat'), Kenai, Homer, and King Salmon. The ANC-CDV-YKT-JNU route was transferred (with the CAB's approval) to Alaska Airlines (who fly it to this day), while the Kenai Peninsula routes, King Salmon, and (I believe) Anchorage-Kodiak service went to Wien Consolidated. Western then pulled out of Juneau and Ketchikan (Annette Island Airport) in 1972. Surprisingly, they continued to fly (several times per week) the Seattle-Kodiak route until the early 1980s. Must've been good cargo revenue on that flight.
On a personal note, my Dad and myself flew Western to and from Alaska in August of 1971. Seattle Anchorage and Anchorage-Juneau were on 720Bs, while our Juneau-Annette Island-Seattle return flight was on one of the ex-PNA turbojet 720s.


I don’t have any WA timetables from 1969-70 (none on Departed Flights either) but Western didn’t drop the smaller Alaska stations with the retirement of the L-749’s. Why else would they have converted the Electra’s to combies and paint Alaska flags on them? Too bad that since the ‘update’ to this site a few years ago I can’t post pictures from my computer. I flew a WA Electra AKN-ANC in June 1969. Wien Consolidated and Western both flew the route when I was there in 68 and 69. Western’s was seasonal, not flying in the Winter that is why you may not see it on some timetables.

I have a Western brochure titled “New Jet Power for Alaska – The Mighty Electra” It’s the size of a timetable with 6 panels front and back. Very interesting to see PNA’s moto “The Alaska Flag Line” on this “Western Airlines International” brochure. Never noticed that before. The brochure shows the Electra’s serving all Alaska stations except Ketchikan, including Seattle.
From the brochure (I’ll try to spell Yakutat with a Y this time!). “WESTERN AIRLINES INTRODUCES ALL JET AND JET-POWERED FLIGHTS THROUGHOUT ALASKA. The new Electra service will offer convenient morning and afternoon departures to and from King Salmon, Kodiak, Homer, and Kenai, with morning Southbound and afternoon Northbound flights between Anchorage, Cordova, Yakutat and Juneau. Plus the first nonstop Jet-powered flights between Seattle and Kodiak.”
No date on the brochure, probably late 68. At least one Electra had been converted before this was printed since there is a photo of the cargo door and you can see the Western stripes.

Oh, and I also thought Winnebago the first time I saw the swizzle. Surprised they lost the lawsuit.

Love this old stuff, probably because I’m old!

RJ968


Thanks for the great post! What was the business case for Seattle-Kodiak? Why did they fly the slower Electra non-stop to Kodiak rather than just connecting folks off the 720B on the multiple short Electra hops over to Kodiak? I assume there was a lot of summer hunting/fishing/tourism stuff out of Kodiak. Is it just that you had lots of folks coming from the lower 48 and it was more competitive to sell them service without going out of the way to Anchorage? That must have been the longest WA Electra flight since before the 720Bs came in. By the mid-60s, Rapid City-Denver was a long flight for the Electra at Western.
 
mga707
Posts: 303
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:29 am

TW870 wrote:
rj968 wrote:
mga707 wrote:

Also,about the same time as Western retired the ex-PNA L-749s, they dropped some of the ex-Pacific Northern smaller stations: Cordova, Yakutat (not 'Takutat'), Kenai, Homer, and King Salmon. The ANC-CDV-YKT-JNU route was transferred (with the CAB's approval) to Alaska Airlines (who fly it to this day), while the Kenai Peninsula routes, King Salmon, and (I believe) Anchorage-Kodiak service went to Wien Consolidated. Western then pulled out of Juneau and Ketchikan (Annette Island Airport) in 1972. Surprisingly, they continued to fly (several times per week) the Seattle-Kodiak route until the early 1980s. Must've been good cargo revenue on that flight.
On a personal note, my Dad and myself flew Western to and from Alaska in August of 1971. Seattle Anchorage and Anchorage-Juneau were on 720Bs, while our Juneau-Annette Island-Seattle return flight was on one of the ex-PNA turbojet 720s.


I don’t have any WA timetables from 1969-70 (none on Departed Flights either) but Western didn’t drop the smaller Alaska stations with the retirement of the L-749’s. Why else would they have converted the Electra’s to combies and paint Alaska flags on them? Too bad that since the ‘update’ to this site a few years ago I can’t post pictures from my computer. I flew a WA Electra AKN-ANC in June 1969. Wien Consolidated and Western both flew the route when I was there in 68 and 69. Western’s was seasonal, not flying in the Winter that is why you may not see it on some timetables.

I have a Western brochure titled “New Jet Power for Alaska – The Mighty Electra” It’s the size of a timetable with 6 panels front and back. Very interesting to see PNA’s moto “The Alaska Flag Line” on this “Western Airlines International” brochure. Never noticed that before. The brochure shows the Electra’s serving all Alaska stations except Ketchikan, including Seattle.
From the brochure (I’ll try to spell Yakutat with a Y this time!). “WESTERN AIRLINES INTRODUCES ALL JET AND JET-POWERED FLIGHTS THROUGHOUT ALASKA. The new Electra service will offer convenient morning and afternoon departures to and from King Salmon, Kodiak, Homer, and Kenai, with morning Southbound and afternoon Northbound flights between Anchorage, Cordova, Yakutat and Juneau. Plus the first nonstop Jet-powered flights between Seattle and Kodiak.”
No date on the brochure, probably late 68. At least one Electra had been converted before this was printed since there is a photo of the cargo door and you can see the Western stripes.

Oh, and I also thought Winnebago the first time I saw the swizzle. Surprised they lost the lawsuit.

Love this old stuff, probably because I’m old!

RJ968


Thanks for the great post! What was the business case for Seattle-Kodiak? Why did they fly the slower Electra non-stop to Kodiak rather than just connecting folks off the 720B on the multiple short Electra hops over to Kodiak? I assume there was a lot of summer hunting/fishing/tourism stuff out of Kodiak. Is it just that you had lots of folks coming from the lower 48 and it was more competitive to sell them service without going out of the way to Anchorage? That must have been the longest WA Electra flight since before the 720Bs came in. By the mid-60s, Rapid City-Denver was a long flight for the Electra at Western.


I would assume that the 'business case' was airfreight. I was surprised that Western kept that route for so long, into the post-deregulation era. Tempted to dig into my 1980s timetable archives (many, many boxes) to see when they did finally drop it. Also would assume that after the combi Electras were finally retired in '71or '72 that the route was serviced with the 727-200 for the rest of it's lifetime. As Western never operated either combi or pure freighter 727s, I wonder if they blocked off some of the rows in the front for freight on that route?
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:27 am

mga707 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
rj968 wrote:

I don’t have any WA timetables from 1969-70 (none on Departed Flights either) but Western didn’t drop the smaller Alaska stations with the retirement of the L-749’s. Why else would they have converted the Electra’s to combies and paint Alaska flags on them? Too bad that since the ‘update’ to this site a few years ago I can’t post pictures from my computer. I flew a WA Electra AKN-ANC in June 1969. Wien Consolidated and Western both flew the route when I was there in 68 and 69. Western’s was seasonal, not flying in the Winter that is why you may not see it on some timetables.

I have a Western brochure titled “New Jet Power for Alaska – The Mighty Electra” It’s the size of a timetable with 6 panels front and back. Very interesting to see PNA’s moto “The Alaska Flag Line” on this “Western Airlines International” brochure. Never noticed that before. The brochure shows the Electra’s serving all Alaska stations except Ketchikan, including Seattle.
From the brochure (I’ll try to spell Yakutat with a Y this time!). “WESTERN AIRLINES INTRODUCES ALL JET AND JET-POWERED FLIGHTS THROUGHOUT ALASKA. The new Electra service will offer convenient morning and afternoon departures to and from King Salmon, Kodiak, Homer, and Kenai, with morning Southbound and afternoon Northbound flights between Anchorage, Cordova, Yakutat and Juneau. Plus the first nonstop Jet-powered flights between Seattle and Kodiak.”
No date on the brochure, probably late 68. At least one Electra had been converted before this was printed since there is a photo of the cargo door and you can see the Western stripes.

Oh, and I also thought Winnebago the first time I saw the swizzle. Surprised they lost the lawsuit.

Love this old stuff, probably because I’m old!

RJ968


Thanks for the great post! What was the business case for Seattle-Kodiak? Why did they fly the slower Electra non-stop to Kodiak rather than just connecting folks off the 720B on the multiple short Electra hops over to Kodiak? I assume there was a lot of summer hunting/fishing/tourism stuff out of Kodiak. Is it just that you had lots of folks coming from the lower 48 and it was more competitive to sell them service without going out of the way to Anchorage? That must have been the longest WA Electra flight since before the 720Bs came in. By the mid-60s, Rapid City-Denver was a long flight for the Electra at Western.


I would assume that the 'business case' was airfreight. I was surprised that Western kept that route for so long, into the post-deregulation era. Tempted to dig into my 1980s timetable archives (many, many boxes) to see when they did finally drop it. Also would assume that after the combi Electras were finally retired in '71or '72 that the route was serviced with the 727-200 for the rest of it's lifetime. As Western never operated either combi or pure freighter 727s, I wonder if they blocked off some of the rows in the front for freight on that route?


The 15 Sep 1972 OAG shows: WA 7 leave SEA 0700, arrive NHB 0808 on Tue and Fri, with 720B equipment. The return flight left NHB 0930, arrived SEA 1423. Note that NHB was Kodiak's code in 1972.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:34 am

I went through my WA annual reports from the time of the PNA purchase to the DL merger. Here's what I found out about WA's service to Alaska:

In 1967, the merged Western / PNA had applications pending to extend its routes from Anchorage to Fairbanks, and add Sitka as a stop between Ketchikan and Juneau. Neither route was awarded.

On Sep 11, 1969, WA suspended Yakutat and Cordova.

On Feb 2, 1970, Western and Wien agreed to a route transfer, where Wien would take over Western's service to Kenai, Homer, Kodiak, and King Salmon from ANC. This transfer took effect on Sep 1, 1970. The route map in Western's 1969 annual report (before the transfer) does not show SEA-Kodiak nonstops, but the map in the 1970 annual report, post-transfer, does show this route.

On December 9, 1971, the CAB made permanent the route discontinuances listed above, and allowed Western to fly SEA-Kodiak on a seasonal basis between Apr 15 and Oct 15. Western wanted these changes, but the CAB also suspended Western's authority at Ketchikan and Juneau for seven years, to improve Alaska Airlines' profitability. Western was very unhappy about this decision because the SEA-Ketchikan-Juneau-ANC route was profitable, and their route maps for the rest of the 1970s showed Ketchikan and Juneau as "temporarily suspended".

On June 1, 1974, Western began an interchange service with Continental on the IAH-DEN-SEA-ANC and DFW-SEA-ANC routes.

On Sep 27, 1974, WA agreed to pay PA $400,000 for PA's PDX/SEA-FAI route. As part of the deal, WA would also have paid PA $6.2 Million for a 707-321. The CAB turned this transaction down in 1975. PA suspended PDX/SEA-FAI after deregulation, and PA's dormant route authority was given to NW.

In Jan 1975, WA began flying a 707-347 combi on the LAX-SFO-SEA-ANC route, with 79 passengers in the back and 31,400 pounds of cargo in the front. It's unclear how long this service lasted.

In 1976, WA applied for SFO/LAX-ANC nonstop authority. These routes were not granted before deregulation, but WA's 1979 annual report does show a SFO-ANC nonstop.

WA's 1980 annual report says the airline suspended service to Kodiak, as well as Helena, Pocatello, Sheridan, Milwaukee, and Spokane. The 1980 annual report's route map also shows SFO-ANC was no longer operated.

In 1981, WA began ANC-FAI, and extended their DFW/DEN-YYC routes to ANC. YYC-ANC was dropped in 1983.

In the summer of 1982, WA began ANC-SLC nonstops, and resumed ANC-Juneau-Ketchikan-Seattle. FAI-Juneau was added in 1984.
 
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dennypayne
Topic Author
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:20 pm

mga707 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
What was the business case for Seattle-Kodiak? Why did they fly the slower Electra non-stop to Kodiak rather than just connecting folks off the 720B on the multiple short Electra hops over to Kodiak? I assume there was a lot of summer hunting/fishing/tourism stuff out of Kodiak. Is it just that you had lots of folks coming from the lower 48 and it was more competitive to sell them service without going out of the way to Anchorage? That must have been the longest WA Electra flight since before the 720Bs came in.


I would assume that the 'business case' was airfreight. I was surprised that Western kept that route for so long, into the post-deregulation era. Tempted to dig into my 1980s timetable archives (many, many boxes) to see when they did finally drop it. Also would assume that after the combi Electras were finally retired in '71or '72 that the route was serviced with the 727-200 for the rest of it's lifetime. As Western never operated either combi or pure freighter 727s, I wonder if they blocked off some of the rows in the front for freight on that route?


I have a June 1984 OAG and it's gone by then. It only shows WA 727 to ANC then connecting to ADQ via Wien Air 727 or Alaska Aeronautical Industries (?) EMB-110 with a stop in Homer.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
 
mga707
Posts: 303
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:59 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
I went through my WA annual reports from the time of the PNA purchase to the DL merger. Here's what I found out about WA's service to Alaska:

In 1967, the merged Western / PNA had applications pending to extend its routes from Anchorage to Fairbanks, and add Sitka as a stop between Ketchikan and Juneau. Neither route was awarded.

On Sep 11, 1969, WA suspended Yakutat and Cordova.

On Feb 2, 1970, Western and Wien agreed to a route transfer, where Wien would take over Western's service to Kenai, Homer, Kodiak, and King Salmon from ANC. This transfer took effect on Sep 1, 1970. The route map in Western's 1969 annual report (before the transfer) does not show SEA-Kodiak nonstops, but the map in the 1970 annual report, post-transfer, does show this route.

On December 9, 1971, the CAB made permanent the route discontinuances listed above, and allowed Western to fly SEA-Kodiak on a seasonal basis between Apr 15 and Oct 15. Western wanted these changes, but the CAB also suspended Western's authority at Ketchikan and Juneau for seven years, to improve Alaska Airlines' profitability. Western was very unhappy about this decision because the SEA-Ketchikan-Juneau-ANC route was profitable, and their route maps for the rest of the 1970s showed Ketchikan and Juneau as "temporarily suspended".

On June 1, 1974, Western began an interchange service with Continental on the IAH-DEN-SEA-ANC and DFW-SEA-ANC routes.

On Sep 27, 1974, WA agreed to pay PA $400,000 for PA's PDX/SEA-FAI route. As part of the deal, WA would also have paid PA $6.2 Million for a 707-321. The CAB turned this transaction down in 1975. PA suspended PDX/SEA-FAI after deregulation, and PA's dormant route authority was given to NW.

In Jan 1975, WA began flying a 707-347 combi on the LAX-SFO-SEA-ANC route, with 79 passengers in the back and 31,400 pounds of cargo in the front. It's unclear how long this service lasted.

In 1976, WA applied for SFO/LAX-ANC nonstop authority. These routes were not granted before deregulation, but WA's 1979 annual report does show a SFO-ANC nonstop.

WA's 1980 annual report says the airline suspended service to Kodiak, as well as Helena, Pocatello, Sheridan, Milwaukee, and Spokane. The 1980 annual report's route map also shows SFO-ANC was no longer operated.

In 1981, WA began ANC-FAI, and extended their DFW/DEN-YYC routes to ANC. YYC-ANC was dropped in 1983.

In the summer of 1982, WA began ANC-SLC nonstops, and resumed ANC-Juneau-Ketchikan-Seattle. FAI-Juneau was added in 1984.


This is excellent information, thank you for taking the time to research it. It really nails down the dates. One very minor correction: I have Western timetables from summer 1972 and summer 1973 that do show Juneau and Ketchikan (which was actually Annette Island, as Ketchikan's present airport was not constructed until the 1980s) with the 'service temporarily suspended' asterisk on the route map, but by my next WA timetable, from October 1974, neither point is on the route map at all. Again, thanks for posting the info.
 
mga707
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:01 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
mga707 wrote:
TW870 wrote:

Thanks for the great post! What was the business case for Seattle-Kodiak? Why did they fly the slower Electra non-stop to Kodiak rather than just connecting folks off the 720B on the multiple short Electra hops over to Kodiak? I assume there was a lot of summer hunting/fishing/tourism stuff out of Kodiak. Is it just that you had lots of folks coming from the lower 48 and it was more competitive to sell them service without going out of the way to Anchorage? That must have been the longest WA Electra flight since before the 720Bs came in. By the mid-60s, Rapid City-Denver was a long flight for the Electra at Western.


I would assume that the 'business case' was airfreight. I was surprised that Western kept that route for so long, into the post-deregulation era. Tempted to dig into my 1980s timetable archives (many, many boxes) to see when they did finally drop it. Also would assume that after the combi Electras were finally retired in '71or '72 that the route was serviced with the 727-200 for the rest of it's lifetime. As Western never operated either combi or pure freighter 727s, I wonder if they blocked off some of the rows in the front for freight on that route?


The 15 Sep 1972 OAG shows: WA 7 leave SEA 0700, arrive NHB 0808 on Tue and Fri, with 720B equipment. The return flight left NHB 0930, arrived SEA 1423. Note that NHB was Kodiak's code in 1972.


Thank you for that--my assumption as to equipment used was incorrect.
 
mga707
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:03 pm

dennypayne wrote:
mga707 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
What was the business case for Seattle-Kodiak? Why did they fly the slower Electra non-stop to Kodiak rather than just connecting folks off the 720B on the multiple short Electra hops over to Kodiak? I assume there was a lot of summer hunting/fishing/tourism stuff out of Kodiak. Is it just that you had lots of folks coming from the lower 48 and it was more competitive to sell them service without going out of the way to Anchorage? That must have been the longest WA Electra flight since before the 720Bs came in.


I would assume that the 'business case' was airfreight. I was surprised that Western kept that route for so long, into the post-deregulation era. Tempted to dig into my 1980s timetable archives (many, many boxes) to see when they did finally drop it. Also would assume that after the combi Electras were finally retired in '71or '72 that the route was serviced with the 727-200 for the rest of it's lifetime. As Western never operated either combi or pure freighter 727s, I wonder if they blocked off some of the rows in the front for freight on that route?


I have a June 1984 OAG and it's gone by then. It only shows WA 727 to ANC then connecting to ADQ via Wien Air 727 or Alaska Aeronautical Industries (?) EMB-110 with a stop in Homer.


Thank you for that--as WA707at MSP mentioned above, Kodiak service was suspended in 1980.
 
TW870
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:44 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
I went through my WA annual reports from the time of the PNA purchase to the DL merger. Here's what I found out about WA's service to Alaska:

In 1967, the merged Western / PNA had applications pending to extend its routes from Anchorage to Fairbanks, and add Sitka as a stop between Ketchikan and Juneau. Neither route was awarded.

On Sep 11, 1969, WA suspended Yakutat and Cordova.

On Feb 2, 1970, Western and Wien agreed to a route transfer, where Wien would take over Western's service to Kenai, Homer, Kodiak, and King Salmon from ANC. This transfer took effect on Sep 1, 1970. The route map in Western's 1969 annual report (before the transfer) does not show SEA-Kodiak nonstops, but the map in the 1970 annual report, post-transfer, does show this route.

On December 9, 1971, the CAB made permanent the route discontinuances listed above, and allowed Western to fly SEA-Kodiak on a seasonal basis between Apr 15 and Oct 15. Western wanted these changes, but the CAB also suspended Western's authority at Ketchikan and Juneau for seven years, to improve Alaska Airlines' profitability. Western was very unhappy about this decision because the SEA-Ketchikan-Juneau-ANC route was profitable, and their route maps for the rest of the 1970s showed Ketchikan and Juneau as "temporarily suspended".

On June 1, 1974, Western began an interchange service with Continental on the IAH-DEN-SEA-ANC and DFW-SEA-ANC routes.

On Sep 27, 1974, WA agreed to pay PA $400,000 for PA's PDX/SEA-FAI route. As part of the deal, WA would also have paid PA $6.2 Million for a 707-321. The CAB turned this transaction down in 1975. PA suspended PDX/SEA-FAI after deregulation, and PA's dormant route authority was given to NW.

In Jan 1975, WA began flying a 707-347 combi on the LAX-SFO-SEA-ANC route, with 79 passengers in the back and 31,400 pounds of cargo in the front. It's unclear how long this service lasted.

In 1976, WA applied for SFO/LAX-ANC nonstop authority. These routes were not granted before deregulation, but WA's 1979 annual report does show a SFO-ANC nonstop.

WA's 1980 annual report says the airline suspended service to Kodiak, as well as Helena, Pocatello, Sheridan, Milwaukee, and Spokane. The 1980 annual report's route map also shows SFO-ANC was no longer operated.

In 1981, WA began ANC-FAI, and extended their DFW/DEN-YYC routes to ANC. YYC-ANC was dropped in 1983.

In the summer of 1982, WA began ANC-SLC nonstops, and resumed ANC-Juneau-Ketchikan-Seattle. FAI-Juneau was added in 1984.


Thanks a billion WA707atMSP!

This is such a great illustration of the timeline along which short haul and milk run type flying gradually disappeared - which was largely in the 1970s. The pilots and flight attendants at the larger carriers were doing very well in contract negotiations in this era, which drove up unit costs. Meanwhile, the 1973 and 1979 oil shocks amplified that effect. The local service model that delivered service to Yakutat, Cordova, Homer, etc., along with Pierre, Sheridan, Pocatello, etc., down in the lower 48, was just not sustainable at the higher operating costs. Route structures that had been designed around the DC-3 and Convairliner were, with each passing year, less translatable to the major airlines of the 1970s. The Combi electra was an excellent aircraft for short haul, and especially for the cargo-intensive Alaska operation. But the change in the cost structure meant that companies like Western would recede from the small markets, and would eventually bring us the growth of companies like Northern Air Cargo and Everts to haul that freight at lower costs. Again, thanks for giving the whole picture here.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:48 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
Although it would have been nice to see a 747-147 in the Chieftan livery, Western's 1970 annual report has the swizzle stick logo on it, so the 747s would almost certainly have been delivered in the swizzle stick scheme.


I guess so. First delivery was expected for October 1970. Don't know for the other two.
 
superjeff
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:27 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
When Western started using the W on their livery, I used to call them Winnebagos after the RVs built and titled Winnebago, which had a large W logo on the side. It was located in Winnebago, Iowa.


You aren't the only person who felt that way.

Winnebago filed a trademark infringement lawsuit against Western Airlines, because Winnebago felt Western's logo was too similar to Winnebago's. Winnebago lost the lawsuit.



They were known as flying Winnebagos to other airline folks as well. I worked for Braniff and we had a charter to San Diego (before Braniff flew there scheduled), and Western worked our flight. The Western folks joked about Braniff's jelly beans ("Flying Colors") while we teased them about their Winnebagos.
 
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Coronado990
Posts: 1500
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Re: Western Airlines Chieftain Liveries

Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:34 pm

superjeff wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
When Western started using the W on their livery, I used to call them Winnebagos after the RVs built and titled Winnebago, which had a large W logo on the side. It was located in Winnebago, Iowa.


You aren't the only person who felt that way.

Winnebago filed a trademark infringement lawsuit against Western Airlines, because Winnebago felt Western's logo was too similar to Winnebago's. Winnebago lost the lawsuit.



They were known as flying Winnebagos to other airline folks as well. I worked for Braniff and we had a charter to San Diego (before Braniff flew there scheduled), and Western worked our flight. The Western folks joked about Braniff's jelly beans ("Flying Colors") while we teased them about their Winnebagos.


The first Braniff never made it to San Diego. We were on the route map on their last published schedule for non-stops to SAT but they never made it to town.
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