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jayunited
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:47 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
How are voluntary programs not enough when the entire payroll is covered by grants from Apr - Sep? At that point it doesn't matter if United operates 1 flight a day or 5,000 - the labor cost is being carried by the taxpayers.

Can you tell me where in this it mentions hour will/can not be reduced?

"Pursuant to the PSP Agreement, United and its affiliates will be required to comply with certain provisions of the CARES Act, including, among others, the requirement that all funds provided under the Payroll Support Program will be used by UAL exclusively for the continuation of payment of its employee wages, salaries and benefits; requirements to maintain employment levels through September 30, 2020; provisions prohibiting certain reductions in employee wages, salaries and benefits; provisions prohibiting the payment of dividends and the repurchase of certain equity until September 30, 2021; audit and reporting requirements; provisions to comply with certain continuation of service requirements until March 1, 2022; and provisions restricting the payment of certain executive compensation until March 24, 2022."

It doesn't. It just says jobs won't be lost. Part time has the same benefits and pay scale as full time, so a reduction to part time does not impact one's benefits or wages. I completely expect some shady maneuvering by United, they always have dealt underhanded - you should know this. I hope you are right, but history tells me the opposite with United.


United Airlines is not trying to reduce their union employees pay before October 1st. United has just started the negotiation process with all its unions trying to negotiate an agreement that will go into effect on October 1st. United is not trying to force involuntary pay cuts/reduction in hours on union employees before October 1st. In fact quite the opposite is true United is paying union employees across the system to stay home. Union employes are getting their full 40 hour/week pay check while staying home watching Netflix. United's offer was a starting point to try and keep as many employees on the job as possible. If the IAM rejects that offer (it seems as though they have) then the IAM needs to come back with a reasonable counter proposal and not say they believe the company can achieve the necessary cost saving through expanded voluntary programs because the IAM already knows voluntary programs will not be enough.

Of the 20,000 employees who are already participating in the voluntary programs how many of them are IAM represented employees? Once the CARES act protection is over will United still need 20,000+ IAM represented employees on the payroll if we are only flying 40% of our normal schedule? The IAM is deceiving its membership if they are leading them to believe they will escape this crisis unscathed through voluntary programs. If the IAM does not believe a temporary reduction from full-time to part-time is in their members best interest that is okay. However then the IAM has a duty to prepare their members for the hard truths which will include furloughs and reduction in pay. I wonder how many IAM represented employees know about the "Act of God" clause in their contract? A contract they approved overwhelmingly because of the money. United could enact the clause in all fairness enact because COVID-19 was not United Airlines fault. That clause if enacted carries with it serious repercussions that I'm not sure many IAM members understand. So instead of misleading their membership the IAM should be insisting their membership read the contract in its entirety, and the IAM should be asking its membership for helpful ideas.

In my opinion if there is no agreement by October 1st United may give negotiations an additional 30 days but after that if the situation has not improved I can see United activating the Act of God clause in the IAM's contract.

The only other way I know how to make my point is like this. If there were no CARES act and the airlines were on their own do you believe United would be paying union employees their full salary to stay home or would drastic measures have already been taken? This is what United faces come October 1st when the CARES act runs out. I can promise you this, come October 1st United will NOT be paying union employees to stay home.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:14 am

CARES money is far short of what is required to keep everyone paid full time

Maybe this company clarification helps paint the picture:

o In 2019, from April 1 through September 30th, we spent $6.5 billion on labor-related-expenses.
o This year, to cover the same April through September time period, we expect to receive a $3.5 billion grant from the federal government to cover our labor costs.
o We’ll also receive a low-interest $1.5 billion loan as a part of the payroll support program which will help bridge the gap, but this is money that has to be re-paid.
o If you apply our 2019 labor-related costs to the same period this year, there is a gap of billions of dollars, even with the CARES Act assistance.
o And we don’t have the same level of money coming in: we’re flying a schedule that is down 90 percent with just a handful of paying customers on each flight, fulfilling our obligation under the CARES Act to maintain connectivity among nearly all our domestic destinations. And we expect demand to be down through 2020 and likely into next year.
o That’s why we are evaluating every potential cost-saving measure between now and September 30, while at the same time planning for our total payroll costs – and the size of our airline – to be smaller starting as early as October 1.
o Our conversations with our union labor partners are part of our broader effort to reduce costs between now and September 30. No decisions have been made in respect to represented employees.
o These aggressive efforts to manage the impact of the worst financial crisis our company has ever faced will position United to survive and most importantly bounce back quickly.
Last edited by LAXintl on Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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KVH68
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:18 am

I would not be surprised if the government gives additional financial support after September 30.
 
TWAL1011
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:17 am

KVH68 wrote:
I would not be surprised if the government gives additional financial support after September 30.

And I would not be surprised to see thousands of IAM & AFA positions eliminated on October 1, 2020.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:19 pm

Instead of lying to their membership I think the IAM should approach all the unions to try and work together. The should approach ALPA, PAFCA, AFA, and the Teamsters, (not sure if I'm leaving out a union) with the goal of working toward a common goal to help their respective membership and United Airlines through this crisis. We should not see a repeat of what we saw during and after bankruptcy where UA gave huge bonuses to executives and pay raises to executives, management and even salaried employees. All the represented should present a united front to United with the same goals:

Executive compensation remains at current levels (remember all executives and senior management took a 50% pay cut)
No bonuses
No pay raises to mid-level management down to salaried employees.
No stock buy backs
Every thing above is frozen until UA hits certain profitability and growth phases.

United Airlines does not get to decide the phases on its own. The unions and the company form a council where each union has one representative and the company has a representative, the recovery can be broken down into phases perhaps 4 or 5 phases. During phase 1, UA agrees to recall "X" number of employees from each union group and restores a percentage of each unions pay. The percentage of pay restored should be the same across the board also mid-level down to salaried employees should have the same percentage of pay restored. The same would apply to phase 2, and 3. I think senior management pay should remain where is it until United hit phase 4 then a percentage of their pay could be restored. Lastly executives pay should remain at current levels until United hits phase 5 or the top phase of its recovery.

The stock buy back program should be frozen for at least 7-8 years if not longer.

If the IAM were smart they would be preparing their membership for the hard times ahead. They should keep and extended their current contract for a year or two BUT add an addendum that together with other unions directly address the steps United must take during the recovery to make sure this is shared sacrifice and SHARED REWARD. Although I am in management I do not believe any one union group or the unions in general should be left holding the bag locked into a COVID-19 contract for the next 4-6 years while United Airlines moves forward with the recovery. This is what happened during/after bankruptcy where unions were locked into a bankruptcy contract. Let us not repeat that mistake because no wins in that scenario. I believe demand will come back, and United will return to profitability and growth. I strongly believe all United employees should participate and see their wages, benefits, and employee numbers restored in lock step with United return to profitability and growth.
 
LNCS0930
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:42 pm

KVH68 wrote:
I would not be surprised if the government gives additional financial support after September 30.


I’ve been saying this for several weeks and it again might come with the stipulation of no layoffs. But all it will probably do is delay the inevitable to spring 2021
 
DDR
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:22 pm

Airlines got tax payers help to last all the way until October. Once October is here, airlines will need to survive one way or another without government assistance. If that means cutting flights and furloughs then so be it. It isn’t fair that thousands of businesses are going under because they don’t get government assistance. Sorry to be harsh, and as an airline employee I sure don’t want to lose my job, But we can’t keep flying all these empty planes around. It’s ridiculous.
 
cruiseshipcrew
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:35 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
I would not be surprised if the government gives additional financial support after September 30.


I’ve been saying this for several weeks and it again might come with the stipulation of no layoffs. But all it will probably do is delay the inevitable to spring 2021


I can't see the Government basically paying a year of unemployment to airline employees just because they worked for an airline during this and I don't think it would be fair to other industries or tax payers. I know several of my Flight Attendant friends are using their paid down time to come up with other career and job ideas for the coming Oct chopping block.
 
cruiseshipcrew
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:37 pm

jayunited wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
How are voluntary programs not enough when the entire payroll is covered by grants from Apr - Sep? At that point it doesn't matter if United operates 1 flight a day or 5,000 - the labor cost is being carried by the taxpayers.

Can you tell me where in this it mentions hour will/can not be reduced?

"Pursuant to the PSP Agreement, United and its affiliates will be required to comply with certain provisions of the CARES Act, including, among others, the requirement that all funds provided under the Payroll Support Program will be used by UAL exclusively for the continuation of payment of its employee wages, salaries and benefits; requirements to maintain employment levels through September 30, 2020; provisions prohibiting certain reductions in employee wages, salaries and benefits; provisions prohibiting the payment of dividends and the repurchase of certain equity until September 30, 2021; audit and reporting requirements; provisions to comply with certain continuation of service requirements until March 1, 2022; and provisions restricting the payment of certain executive compensation until March 24, 2022."

It doesn't. It just says jobs won't be lost. Part time has the same benefits and pay scale as full time, so a reduction to part time does not impact one's benefits or wages. I completely expect some shady maneuvering by United, they always have dealt underhanded - you should know this. I hope you are right, but history tells me the opposite with United.




United Airlines is not trying to reduce their union employees pay before October 1st. United has just started the negotiation process with all its unions trying to negotiate an agreement that will go into effect on October 1st. United is not trying to force involuntary pay cuts/reduction in hours on union employees before October 1st. In fact quite the opposite is true United is paying union employees across the system to stay home. Union employes are getting their full 40 hour/week pay check while staying home watching Netflix. United's offer was a starting point to try and keep as many employees on the job as possible. If the IAM rejects that offer (it seems as though they have) then the IAM needs to come back with a reasonable counter proposal and not say they believe the company can achieve the necessary cost saving through expanded voluntary programs because the IAM already knows voluntary programs will not be enough.

Of the 20,000 employees who are already participating in the voluntary programs how many of them are IAM represented employees? Once the CARES act protection is over will United still need 20,000+ IAM represented employees on the payroll if we are only flying 40% of our normal schedule? The IAM is deceiving its membership if they are leading them to believe they will escape this crisis unscathed through voluntary programs. If the IAM does not believe a temporary reduction from full-time to part-time is in their members best interest that is okay. However then the IAM has a duty to prepare their members for the hard truths which will include furloughs and reduction in pay. I wonder how many IAM represented employees know about the "Act of God" clause in their contract? A contract they approved overwhelmingly because of the money. United could enact the clause in all fairness enact because COVID-19 was not United Airlines fault. That clause if enacted carries with it serious repercussions that I'm not sure many IAM members understand. So instead of misleading their membership the IAM should be insisting their membership read the contract in its entirety, and the IAM should be asking its membership for helpful ideas.

In my opinion if there is no agreement by October 1st United may give negotiations an additional 30 days but after that if the situation has not improved I can see United activating the Act of God clause in the IAM's contract.

The only other way I know how to make my point is like this. If there were no CARES act and the airlines were on their own do you believe United would be paying union employees their full salary to stay home or would drastic measures have already been taken? This is what United faces come October 1st when the CARES act runs out. I can promise you this, come October 1st United will NOT be paying union employees to stay home.


Jayunited I just wanted to say you have become my favorite A.net poster. 100% of your posts are fascinating to read and I greatly appreciate all the insight you bring.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:07 pm

I sincerely hope no one is banking on a second round of government aid. The PPP only serves to give carriers time to come up with a plan for survival. All of us should be using this time to do the same.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Rdh3e
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:27 pm

jayunited wrote:
.

There is one hole in this logic. Union employees locked themselves into a career, they have low to no mobility while maintaining pay.

Management is the opposite. The best employees would then be able to get raises to leave the company and you will end up with a sub par team while the best people flock to direct competitors. I'm not taking about top level execs, I'm talking about the people who do the work. And how will you treat new hires? Anyone coming in would demand a pay premium up front because they will know they can't get a raise.

It won't work on the management side, at least not if you want the right people to stay. You'd be much better off setting a total budget goal for management so they can reward the best people by finding a way to reduce headcount or management expenses in a different way.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:48 pm

NWAESC wrote:
I sincerely hope no one is banking on a second round of government aid. The PPP only serves to give carriers time to come up with a plan for survival. All of us should be using this time to do the same.


I wouldn't count it out. There is no way Trump is going to let the airlines mass layoff people 30 days before his re-election. That is a bad sign going into the last month of a re-election campaign. I would expect something to happen to stretch things out another 60 days or so. Or first of the year to get past Christmas.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:44 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
jayunited wrote:
.

There is one hole in this logic. Union employees locked themselves into a career, they have low to no mobility while maintaining pay.

Management is the opposite. The best employees would then be able to get raises to leave the company and you will end up with a sub par team while the best people flock to direct competitors. I'm not taking about top level execs, I'm talking about the people who do the work. And how will you treat new hires? Anyone coming in would demand a pay premium up front because they will know they can't get a raise.

It won't work on the management side, at least not if you want the right people to stay. You'd be much better off setting a total budget goal for management so they can reward the best people by finding a way to reduce headcount or management expenses in a different way.



I respectively disagree with you on this. I 100% believe in shared sacrifice shared reward, United's union employees should not be locked into a long term COVID-19 contract while people in management are able to reap the rewards once the recovery, profitability and growth return. I was a union employee during UA bankruptcy, I'm in management now I don't believe it is fair to leave our union coworkers holding the bag while the rest of the company moves forward. Policies like those build resentment, bitterness, and hate. People start to hate their job and that spills over and will eventually effect the way our customers are treated. United still has some bitter employees from the bankruptcy years but I feel like United has come a long way to restore trust between management and unions. Most of our frontline employees have made great strides to show our customers we are better than what we were. If United asks my union coworkers for wage, benefits, and furloughs those sacrifices should be reversed as the companies position improves. If United is out of this crisis and back to pre-COVID-19 levels by January 2022 then by February 2022 our union coworkers should have their entire pay and benefits restored and furloughed workers should have been recalled. Union employees should not have to wait till 2024 or 2025 to be fully restored because they are locked into a COVID-19 contract, because salaried and management employees will not have to wait until then for their restoration. Fair is fair we should not let Coronavirus undo all the progress United has made in improving employee relations.

I don't like the games the IAM is play by purposely misleading their membership but at the same time I don't want to see them left behind for years because of a unfair contact.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:49 pm

DDR wrote:
Airlines got tax payers help to last all the way until October. Once October is here, airlines will need to survive one way or another without government assistance. If that means cutting flights and furloughs then so be it. It isn’t fair that thousands of businesses are going under because they don’t get government assistance. Sorry to be harsh, and as an airline employee I sure don’t want to lose my job, But we can’t keep flying all these empty planes around. It’s ridiculous.



And who are you to make that decision? Just curious

A major election year...Don’t think anybody in Congress of either party has the appetite for hundreds of thousands of furloughs across the industry
 
TWAL1011
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:13 pm

Management is a meritocracy. They can just leave to maintain or improve their salary. They are not locked in by seniority. Management doesn’t have to share any sacrifice. Management isn’t going to have labor councils running the airline .. they are just going to lay you off .. bye bye
 
NickLAX
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:39 pm

To those talking of travel coming back. I work in an industry that is split between Western Europe (specific Germany, UK, France and a bit across Benelux region) plus Japan, Korea and China. We are still working and our customers are too - with restrictions. Even if travel opens to these regions - NONE of these customers will accept any level of face to face interaction from people outside their region until at least Aug or Sept. These are what companies are telling us now and to be expected for. Even deep technical topics are ending up on multi hour sessions in zoom to get local teams able to support. Those thinking this all turns on as if normal are suspect in their thinking of not understanding that many companies are going to go way way beyond what their government tells them to do. If we are lucky we recover enough by 2021, this isn't a downer look it's reality talking to those in industry trying to set things back to normal.

Who will survive: Carriers who recognize this is a new reality and work with it.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:59 am

jayunited wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
jayunited wrote:
.

There is one hole in this logic. Union employees locked themselves into a career, they have low to no mobility while maintaining pay.

Management is the opposite. The best employees would then be able to get raises to leave the company and you will end up with a sub par team while the best people flock to direct competitors. I'm not taking about top level execs, I'm talking about the people who do the work. And how will you treat new hires? Anyone coming in would demand a pay premium up front because they will know they can't get a raise.

It won't work on the management side, at least not if you want the right people to stay. You'd be much better off setting a total budget goal for management so they can reward the best people by finding a way to reduce headcount or management expenses in a different way.



I respectively disagree with you on this. I 100% believe in shared sacrifice shared reward, United's union employees should not be locked into a long term COVID-19 contract while people in management are able to reap the rewards once the recovery, profitability and growth return. I was a union employee during UA bankruptcy, I'm in management now I don't believe it is fair to leave our union coworkers holding the bag while the rest of the company moves forward. Policies like those build resentment, bitterness, and hate. People start to hate their job and that spills over and will eventually effect the way our customers are treated. United still has some bitter employees from the bankruptcy years but I feel like United has come a long way to restore trust between management and unions. Most of our frontline employees have made great strides to show our customers we are better than what we were. If United asks my union coworkers for wage, benefits, and furloughs those sacrifices should be reversed as the companies position improves. If United is out of this crisis and back to pre-COVID-19 levels by January 2022 then by February 2022 our union coworkers should have their entire pay and benefits restored and furloughed workers should have been recalled. Union employees should not have to wait till 2024 or 2025 to be fully restored because they are locked into a COVID-19 contract, because salaried and management employees will not have to wait until then for their restoration. Fair is fair we should not let Coronavirus undo all the progress United has made in improving employee relations.

I don't like the games the IAM is play by purposely misleading their membership but at the same time I don't want to see them left behind for years because of a unfair contact.

No one is talking about long term concessionary contracts though? So I'm not sure what you're getting at. The sacrifice of management would be laying off 30% of people. You just don't them hamstring yourself by driving away your best with pay freezes. Management isn't like a union job, you have options.
 
coairman
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:35 am

Then obviously on October 1st there may be massive involuntary layoffs.....with or without a new or temporary agreement......you can’t have people on payroll if you need only 40% of the employees...... and there are currently new hires still on payroll........the CARES Act is obviously a temporary band aide to the final outcome... when it all shakes out, UA will have a very senior and much smaller unionized workforce........ along with other major airlines..
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
friendlyskies22
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:19 pm

Did UA get their Hawaii CAREs act exemptions?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:29 pm

NickLAX wrote:
To those talking of travel coming back. I work in an industry that is split between Western Europe (specific Germany, UK, France and a bit across Benelux region) plus Japan, Korea and China. We are still working and our customers are too - with restrictions. Even if travel opens to these regions - NONE of these customers will accept any level of face to face interaction from people outside their region until at least Aug or Sept. These are what companies are telling us now and to be expected for. Even deep technical topics are ending up on multi hour sessions in zoom to get local teams able to support. Those thinking this all turns on as if normal are suspect in their thinking of not understanding that many companies are going to go way way beyond what their government tells them to do. If we are lucky we recover enough by 2021, this isn't a downer look it's reality talking to those in industry trying to set things back to normal.

Who will survive: Carriers who recognize this is a new reality and work with it.


I don’t think that’s too much negativity. I think Labor Day is a realistic timeframe for when face to face meetings start to return.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
CALMSP
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:21 am

jfklganyc wrote:
DDR wrote:
Airlines got tax payers help to last all the way until October. Once October is here, airlines will need to survive one way or another without government assistance. If that means cutting flights and furloughs then so be it. It isn’t fair that thousands of businesses are going under because they don’t get government assistance. Sorry to be harsh, and as an airline employee I sure don’t want to lose my job, But we can’t keep flying all these empty planes around. It’s ridiculous.



And who are you to make that decision? Just curious

A major election year...Don’t think anybody in Congress of either party has the appetite for hundreds of thousands of furloughs across the industry


it will certainly be interesting, but if one looks at the other side and someone says, why are all these airline workers still getting their full pay when I'm unemployed and my company is not getting a stipend to fund me and my colleagues.
 
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KVH68
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:36 am

It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:02 am

friendlyskies22 wrote:
Did UA get their Hawaii CAREs act exemptions?


Yes....UA just has to serve HNL.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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malaysia
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:20 am

KVH68 wrote:
It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.


Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
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KVH68
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:39 am

malaysia wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.


Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July


I missed out on the S1.200 stimulus check also because I made too much money.
 
N649DL
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:34 am

jfklganyc wrote:
This is such an important thread

It should have 100 plus replies already

Sad state of affairs on a.net

Obviously, these loses are just the beginning at UA. They have been very aggressive about cuts, very aggressive at stating how bad this is, very aggressive about stating how they will be smaller.

They are very exposed across both oceans


Just a question: If you were to fly F on UA on a route pre-CoronaVirus and supposed to get a meal, have those been cut? Same deal with DL and AA, I have no idea where things stand service-wise these days.
 
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malaysia
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Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:49 am

N649DL wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
This is such an important thread

It should have 100 plus replies already

Sad state of affairs on a.net

Obviously, these loses are just the beginning at UA. They have been very aggressive about cuts, very aggressive at stating how bad this is, very aggressive about stating how they will be smaller.

They are very exposed across both oceans


Just a question: If you were to fly F on UA on a route pre-CoronaVirus and supposed to get a meal, have those been cut? Same deal with DL and AA, I have no idea where things stand service-wise these days.


I saw something online about box meal service lately for UA? and in first is prepackaged on a tray for you to unwrap yourself?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
United1
Posts: 4194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:51 am

N649DL wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
This is such an important thread

It should have 100 plus replies already

Sad state of affairs on a.net

Obviously, these loses are just the beginning at UA. They have been very aggressive about cuts, very aggressive at stating how bad this is, very aggressive about stating how they will be smaller.

They are very exposed across both oceans


Just a question: If you were to fly F on UA on a route pre-CoronaVirus and supposed to get a meal, have those been cut? Same deal with DL and AA, I have no idea where things stand service-wise these days.


Depends on the length of flight. Transcontinental and Polaris passengers still get a meal however it’s wrapped (like a Kosher meal is.) Flights over 2:20 get a snack box.

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/tr ... anges.html
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Moosefire
Posts: 148
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:30 am

KVH68 wrote:
malaysia wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.


Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July


I missed out on the S1.200 stimulus check also because I made too much money.


Classy
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
N649DL
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:34 pm

United1 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
This is such an important thread

It should have 100 plus replies already

Sad state of affairs on a.net

Obviously, these loses are just the beginning at UA. They have been very aggressive about cuts, very aggressive at stating how bad this is, very aggressive about stating how they will be smaller.

They are very exposed across both oceans


Just a question: If you were to fly F on UA on a route pre-CoronaVirus and supposed to get a meal, have those been cut? Same deal with DL and AA, I have no idea where things stand service-wise these days.


Depends on the length of flight. Transcontinental and Polaris passengers still get a meal however it’s wrapped (like a Kosher meal is.) Flights over 2:20 get a snack box.

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/tr ... anges.html


That kind of sucks & almost like going back to the UAEX days when they only served snack boxes in F. Why can't they wrap up a meal on flights over 2:20 like the transcontinental routes?
 
ordbosewr
Topic Author
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:56 pm

KVH68 wrote:
malaysia wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.


Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July


I missed out on the S1.200 stimulus check also because I made too much money.


This is precisely by design. Instead of getting the stimulus check they (airline employees) get full payroll and benefits (potentially for staying home, like all of the 757/767 pilot crews who have nothing scheduled for May but get paid for working normal hours). The government is paying the airlines to do this, that is what the money they are getting is meant to support.

What will be interesting is if Congress tries to re-write the rules before 10/1 to make airlines (that took CARES money, which is all majors) keep those employees employed (or at least a certain %) since it is clear that demand will not return to even the new normal levels till well beyond 10/1.
 
United1
Posts: 4194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:14 pm

N649DL wrote:
United1 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Just a question: If you were to fly F on UA on a route pre-CoronaVirus and supposed to get a meal, have those been cut? Same deal with DL and AA, I have no idea where things stand service-wise these days.


Depends on the length of flight. Transcontinental and Polaris passengers still get a meal however it’s wrapped (like a Kosher meal is.) Flights over 2:20 get a snack box.

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/tr ... anges.html


That kind of sucks & almost like going back to the UAEX days when they only served snack boxes in F. Why can't they wrap up a meal on flights over 2:20 like the transcontinental routes?


The more food service they have on board the more contact between people is required and the more people who are involved. Not just on the aircraft but with the caterers, suppliers kitchens...everything. This is all about keeping people safe.

UA has a conference call scheduled for Friday morning to discuss Q1s results. Assuming UA sticks to its normal procedure, and these are anything other than normal times, UA should put out its earnings release after the closing bell tomorrow evening and then put out an investor update Friday morning.

Lets see what happens :)
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
cruiseshipcrew
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:43 pm

malaysia wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.


Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July


They are getting a much better deal by being employed until Oct 1st. I hope a lot of them are using this time to try to find another job before that date hits.
 
User avatar
malaysia
Posts: 2667
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:37 am

cruiseshipcrew wrote:
malaysia wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
It will be a weird feeling when I go on unemployment on October 1st while the rest of America goes back to work. Hopefully I will have an easier time applying for unemployment.


Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July


They are getting a much better deal by being employed until Oct 1st. I hope a lot of them are using this time to try to find another job before that date hits.


I am sure in the Airline and Aviation Industry, looking for a career change now will not work especially with stay at home now, most industries are not hiring now and have decreased output and opportunity.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
cruiseshipcrew
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:54 am

malaysia wrote:
cruiseshipcrew wrote:
malaysia wrote:

Also looks like Airline workers who become unemployed on Oct 1+ will miss out on the $600 weekly assistance which was for being on unemployment from April-July


They are getting a much better deal by being employed until Oct 1st. I hope a lot of them are using this time to try to find another job before that date hits.


I am sure in the Airline and Aviation Industry, looking for a career change now will not work especially with stay at home now, most industries are not hiring now and have decreased output and opportunity.


So they shouldn't try to be proactive? Yes a lot of industries are not hiring now but others are. If I had 6 months lead up to being unemployed I would certainly be trying to find a new job/career before tens of thousands of others start Oct 1st.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19287
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:14 am

jfklganyc wrote:
A major election year...Don’t think anybody in Congress of either party has the appetite for hundreds of thousands of furloughs across the industry


Those same congress critters apparently have the appetite for tens of millions of folks becoming unemployed because of Covid-19, I don't see a problem adding a few more. Why does the fact they're working for an airline make them special?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:46 pm

ordbosewr wrote:
What will be interesting is if Congress tries to re-write the rules before 10/1 to make airlines (that took CARES money, which is all majors) keep those employees employed (or at least a certain %) since it is clear that demand will not return to even the new normal levels till well beyond 10/1.


Without any additional financial support the government can't mandate airlines keep employees employed or even a certain percentage. The government gave a date the airlines have signed the contract. If Congress and the President (more so the President election year) wants to keep tens of thousands of airline employees employed I'm sure the airlines would agree to keep employees on the payroll in return for more more money. In a article a few days ago Delta stated they now believe the industry won't be back to pre-COVID-19 levels for 3 years. Right now here in the US most airlines are only flying 10%-15% of their normal schedule. With June schedules still be finalized across the board United has already hinted that our June schedule will closely mirror our May schedule. Let us jump to July and August, United may (this is me just guessing nothing official) operate up to 25% of its normal schedule. However come September there is normally a slight drop in demand and in capacity because summer vacations are wrapping up and school is back in session. So lets assume by September United could still be around 25% or 30% of our normal schedule then the CARES act runs out. The next big travel event here in the US and the busiest travel period here is the week leading into Thanksgiving and earlier in April Kirby already stated he expects United to be around 40% (best case scenario) of it normal schedule. If the government is going to demand airlines keep their employees employed then Congress is going to have to give these airlines a lot more money to cover their payroll. By Thanksgiving if United is only flying 40% of its normal schedule and United is on its own no government support, there is no way 75,000 employees are needed. (I used 75,000 because the latest numbers I saw suggested 20,000 UA employees have taken some type of voluntary leave.)

What I would suggest airline employees start doing is preparing, we have been given an opportunity many other people never had. Many people woke up one day and their job was gone, we have be blessed with six months to prepare for the eventuality that we could loose our jobs. Airline employees need to be preparing for such an event, I am paying extra on my mortgage so that by the time October 1 hits if I loose my job my mortgage is paid for the next 5 months trying to get to 6 months for peace of mind, paying extra on my SUV, eliminating all discretionary spending and putting that money towards bills and making sure I have no credit card debt. I'm doing this because if I do get laid off it could be some time before I find another job or United offers me a job.

There could be a second CARES package for the airlines but if there isn't we all need to be preparing now. Preparing for the future is opportunity that over 30 million Americans who are now on unemployment never had.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8499
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:54 pm

ordbosewr wrote:
What will be interesting is if Congress tries to re-write the rules before 10/1 to make airlines (that took CARES money, which is all majors) keep those employees employed (or at least a certain %) since it is clear that demand will not return to even the new normal levels till well beyond 10/1.


United posted the full text of its CARES Act payroll support agreement. It's a contract between two parties. See Exhibit 10.1

https://ir.united.com/index.php/static- ... a6653d114c

Congress or the Administration may jawbone carriers to keep employees and serviced points but the contractual obligations are clear.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:22 pm

jayunited wrote:
What I would suggest airline employees start doing is preparing, we have been given an opportunity many other people never had. Many people woke up one day and their job was gone, we have be blessed with six months to prepare for the eventuality that we could loose our jobs. Airline employees need to be preparing for such an event, I am paying extra on my mortgage so that by the time October 1 hits if I loose my job my mortgage is paid for the next 5 months trying to get to 6 months for peace of mind, paying extra on my SUV, eliminating all discretionary spending and putting that money towards bills and making sure I have no credit card debt. I'm doing this because if I do get laid off it could be some time before I find another job or United offers me a job.

There could be a second CARES package for the airlines but if there isn't we all need to be preparing now. Preparing for the future is opportunity that over 30 million Americans who are now on unemployment never had.


Those are all great moves, and I hope everyone in the industry is carrying out their own version of them. Sadly, I still see a lot of people convinced that "everything will be back to normal" by June/July.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
ordbosewr
Topic Author
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:43 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ordbosewr wrote:
What will be interesting is if Congress tries to re-write the rules before 10/1 to make airlines (that took CARES money, which is all majors) keep those employees employed (or at least a certain %) since it is clear that demand will not return to even the new normal levels till well beyond 10/1.


United posted the full text of its CARES Act payroll support agreement. It's a contract between two parties. See Exhibit 10.1

https://ir.united.com/index.php/static- ... a6653d114c

Congress or the Administration may jawbone carriers to keep employees and serviced points but the contractual obligations are clear.


Yes, it is a contract, but in reality any contract or law can be changed.
I recently had a situation where that was the case, any law or contract can be changed if the political situation demands it.
As person who is actually an elected official myself (local board of education), we can only plan based on the laws that are on the books and got into a situation in this regard, but then the law changed and we got impacted.

That all being said, I do not see how any presidential or congressional candidate (new or re-election) will not be happy to see an additional large pool of people become unemployed in October. It creates a negative narrative.

NWAESC wrote:
jayunited wrote:
What I would suggest airline employees start doing is preparing, we have been given an opportunity many other people never had. Many people woke up one day and their job was gone, we have be blessed with six months to prepare for the eventuality that we could loose our jobs. Airline employees need to be preparing for such an event, I am paying extra on my mortgage so that by the time October 1 hits if I loose my job my mortgage is paid for the next 5 months trying to get to 6 months for peace of mind, paying extra on my SUV, eliminating all discretionary spending and putting that money towards bills and making sure I have no credit card debt. I'm doing this because if I do get laid off it could be some time before I find another job or United offers me a job.

There could be a second CARES package for the airlines but if there isn't we all need to be preparing now. Preparing for the future is opportunity that over 30 million Americans who are now on unemployment never had.


Those are all great moves, and I hope everyone in the industry is carrying out their own version of them. Sadly, I still see a lot of people convinced that "everything will be back to normal" by June/July.


Agreed, this is smart for all folks, if you feel your industry is at risk (and probably for all in general).
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6194
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:39 pm

This could be a game changer if it proves successful:

https://www.businessinsider.com/oxford- ... ute-2020-4
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8499
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines posts $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:08 pm

ordbosewr wrote:
Yes, it is a contract, but in reality any contract or law can be changed.


Contracts can't be changed unilaterally. This shouldn't need to be explained to any American adult.
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: United Airlines projects $2.1 billion pretax loss as coronavirus roils business, seeks more federal aid

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:09 pm

Now that they have formally posted Q1 earnings please continue in that thread

>>> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1445499
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