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PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
ben175 wrote:PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
The main argument at play here is "why should the Australian government bail out Virgin if it's 90% foreign-owned".
I'm really hoping someone buys them out and restructures the airline into a smaller, domestic-only "Jetblue" hybrid style carrier.
A 737-only fleet, with a subfleet of 6-8 fitted with Business for the transcons to PER.
PANAMsterdam wrote:ben175 wrote:PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
The main argument at play here is "why should the Australian government bail out Virgin if it's 90% foreign-owned".
I'm really hoping someone buys them out and restructures the airline into a smaller, domestic-only "Jetblue" hybrid style carrier.
A 737-only fleet, with a subfleet of 6-8 fitted with Business for the transcons to PER.
Named: Virgin Ansett Australian Airlines
Yeah, it's true that Virgin is 90% owned by foreign companies, but over 10.000 people would lose their jobs and I assume most of those 10.000 folks are Australians. This is a cry for help due to an unprecedented crisis. Corona is not something you can blame Virgin for of course
Edit: also, local governments of Australia were willing to help (see article), but only A$200m not the A$1.4b Virgin asked for from the federal government.
ben175 wrote:The main argument at play here is "why should the Australian government bail out Virgin if it's 90% foreign-owned".
I'm really hoping someone buys them out and restructures the airline into a smaller, domestic-only "Jetblue" hybrid style carrier.
A 737-only fleet, with a subfleet of 6-8 fitted with Business for the transcons to PER.
gdg9 wrote:I don't see why the Australian government, or any government, would bail out an airline that was majority foreign owned?
chonetsao wrote:When Virgin fail, there would be another airline coming to life in Australian market later when condition is right.
PANAMsterdam wrote:ben175 wrote:PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
The main argument at play here is "why should the Australian government bail out Virgin if it's 90% foreign-owned".
I'm really hoping someone buys them out and restructures the airline into a smaller, domestic-only "Jetblue" hybrid style carrier.
A 737-only fleet, with a subfleet of 6-8 fitted with Business for the transcons to PER.
Named: Virgin Ansett Australian Airlines
Yeah, it's true that Virgin is 90% owned by foreign companies, but over 10.000 people would lose their jobs and I assume most of those 10.000 folks are Australians. This is a cry for help due to an unprecedented crisis. Corona is not something you can blame Virgin for of course
Edit: also, local governments of Australia were willing to help (see article), but only A$200m not the A$1.4b Virgin asked for from the federal government.
MIflyer12 wrote:chonetsao wrote:When Virgin fail, there would be another airline coming to life in Australian market later when condition is right.
The conditions aren't ever going to be right. It's a relatively small, geographically isolated domestic market with a lot of geographical dispersion - it's worse than Canada, which in spite of prosperity, stability, and a very large market next door hasn't really been able to support even two full national carriers.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/is ... _desc=true
PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin, reminds me of Ansett's demise. I admit that both companies weren't doing great before their respective major crises (9/11 and Covid19) but leaving the entire Australian aviation market in the hands of Qantas is not a very great competitive way of doing business.
ben175 wrote:Really horrible day for Australian aviation. Hoping there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, I have many friends who are proud VA workers that are incredibly sad to see this happen.
Kiwirob wrote:ben175 wrote:Really horrible day for Australian aviation. Hoping there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, I have many friends who are proud VA workers that are incredibly sad to see this happen.
It’s not really a horrible day, it’s been expected for the better part of the last decade, eventually the money tap was going to turned off.
DDR wrote:I don't know very much about Virgin Australia, but why, prior to the corona virus, were they unprofitable? Hasn't every major airline that competed with QANTAS failed? I'm honestly asking, I don't know. Is there really room for two full service airlines in relation to the Aussie population?
DDR wrote:I don't know very much about Virgin Australia, but why, prior to the corona virus, were they unprofitable? Hasn't every major airline that competed with QANTAS failed? I'm honestly asking, I don't know. Is there really room for two full service airlines in relation to the Aussie population?
Kiwiandrew wrote:DDR wrote:I don't know very much about Virgin Australia, but why, prior to the corona virus, were they unprofitable? Hasn't every major airline that competed with QANTAS failed? I'm honestly asking, I don't know. Is there really room for two full service airlines in relation to the Aussie population?
A valid point... to the best of my knowledge. the only time two "full service" airlines thrived was during the era of 'two airline policy' when fares were incredibly high, flights from each airline departed at pretty much the same time to the same destination, the airlines were 'permitted' ( due to import licensing at the time) to order equal numbers of identical aircraft, and ( IIRC) the two carriers were actually 'guaranteed' a minimum of 48% of the domestic trunk market each, so they only 'competed' for the difference.
As soon as the artificial protection of the two airline policy was scrapped, Ansett entered its long, slow decline ( not helped by the reckless stupidity of Air NZ management at the time, who bit off way more than they could chew by acquiring Ansett ... incredibly they were so desperate to stop SQ from grabbing the other 50% of AN that they failed to do basic due diligence and only found out far too late what a mistake they had made ) .
Had DJ stuck to being 'Virgin Blue' rather than trying to be 'Qantas Lite' , I suspect they would have been in pretty good shape (pre-Covid) , relatively speaking
ben175 wrote:Really horrible day for Australian aviation.
zkncj wrote:NZ might of just finally got there dreams to start an Australian domestic airline, just 30 years later an two failed airlines later....
If VA was to stop flying, I wonder if in the short term they make an bid for say the mining contracts.
zkncj wrote:Kiwiandrew wrote:DDR wrote:I don't know very much about Virgin Australia, but why, prior to the corona virus, were they unprofitable? Hasn't every major airline that competed with QANTAS failed? I'm honestly asking, I don't know. Is there really room for two full service airlines in relation to the Aussie population?
A valid point... to the best of my knowledge. the only time two "full service" airlines thrived was during the era of 'two airline policy' when fares were incredibly high, flights from each airline departed at pretty much the same time to the same destination, the airlines were 'permitted' ( due to import licensing at the time) to order equal numbers of identical aircraft, and ( IIRC) the two carriers were actually 'guaranteed' a minimum of 48% of the domestic trunk market each, so they only 'competed' for the difference.
As soon as the artificial protection of the two airline policy was scrapped, Ansett entered its long, slow decline ( not helped by the reckless stupidity of Air NZ management at the time, who bit off way more than they could chew by acquiring Ansett ... incredibly they were so desperate to stop SQ from grabbing the other 50% of AN that they failed to do basic due diligence and only found out far too late what a mistake they had made ) .
Had DJ stuck to being 'Virgin Blue' rather than trying to be 'Qantas Lite' , I suspect they would have been in pretty good shape (pre-Covid) , relatively speaking
And its sad to think again SQ and NZ we're both involved in the current mess, although at-least NZ jumped sold its close to 30% two years ago and got out while they could walk away with some cash from the saga.
For a good couple of years recently NZ was the as the largest share-hold in VA, until they sold their shares to Chinese investors.
It's been an mess of an airline for years NZ,SQ,EH we're not the best mix of shareholders to have around the board table, NZ want VA to be an LCC and follow its on LCC styled product on short-haul. EH/SQ want to VA to be an full service an compete with QF.
VA or as it was then DJ did pretty well as an LCC, until they started to go up market an compete with Qantas.
"A very sad day for the people @VirginAustralia and also for Australasian tourism. @FlyAirNZ
has been competitors, JV partners and shareholders over the past decade. We always had constructive engagement with leaders like Judith C, Rob S, Jane Mc and many other classy people https://twitter.com/CamWallace_NZ/status/1252311373368844288
ben175 wrote:Kiwirob wrote:ben175 wrote:Really horrible day for Australian aviation. Hoping there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, I have many friends who are proud VA workers that are incredibly sad to see this happen.
It’s not really a horrible day, it’s been expected for the better part of the last decade, eventually the money tap was going to turned off.
It's a damn horrible day for the 10,000+ staff members who will probably wake up unemployed.
JCK98 wrote:ben175 wrote:The main argument at play here is "why should the Australian government bail out Virgin if it's 90% foreign-owned".
I'm really hoping someone buys them out and restructures the airline into a smaller, domestic-only "Jetblue" hybrid style carrier.
A 737-only fleet, with a subfleet of 6-8 fitted with Business for the transcons to PER.
A Virgin Blue if you will.
PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin.
RJMAZ wrote:PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin.
Ease up. The Virgin Australia board of directors have a net worth of $7 billion. They simply do not want to tap into their personal wealth.
Good riddance I say.
Australia has the biggest COVID19 assistance package per head of population on the planet and Virgin Australia was not willing to accept anything besides cold hard cash. They said no to loans and rejected our jobkeeper program where they would get paid $1500 per fortnight per employee. Virgin would then have to pay the difference between their normal wages while the business could operate.
With high freight prices they could simply do belly cargo their loss would be a fraction of leaving everything grounded.
RJMAZ wrote:PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin.
Ease up. The Virgin Australia board of directors have a net worth of $7 billion. They simply do not want to tap into their personal wealth.
Good riddance I say.
Australia has the biggest COVID19 assistance package per head of population on the planet and Virgin Australia was not willing to accept anything besides cold hard cash. They said no to loans and rejected our jobkeeper program where they would get paid $1500 per fortnight per employee. Virgin would then have to pay the difference between their normal wages while the business could operate.
With high freight prices they could simply do belly cargo their loss would be a fraction of leaving everything grounded.
Blerg wrote:If Qantas is left as the only domestic player, why not cap the price of tickets?
hawaiian717 wrote:News release here: https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... nistration
Velocity Frequent Flyer is not in administration.
BNEFlyer wrote:VA have announced they've gone into Voluntary Administration. They're not in liquidation, they haven't collapsed, no one has lost their job today, planes are still flying, Velocity points and travel bank credits are still there to be used.
It would be great if people didn't take such joy in seeing VA go through what they are, and essentially try to will them into collapsing. They won't. They might look different at the end but they'll still be around. And you can guarantee that if it was QF in this position, the language being used and the tone of peoples posts (on every forum/group) would be very different.
anstar wrote:The government have thrown money at them. There was the $750 million package in March for air nz charges etc, then there was the $150million in underwriting a domestic network for 8 weeks and then the underwriting of some international flights. Then there is job keeper which would also of subsidised those working on the skeleton staff. All these things would help a healthy company get through... but they were on the brink long before COVID.
RJMAZ wrote:PANAMsterdam wrote:I'm stunned by the unwillingness of the Australian government to help Virgin.
Ease up. The Virgin Australia board of directors have a net worth of $7 billion. They simply do not want to tap into their personal wealth.
Good riddance I say.
Australia has the biggest COVID19 assistance package per head of population on the planet and Virgin Australia was not willing to accept anything besides cold hard cash. They said no to loans and rejected our jobkeeper program where they would get paid $1500 per fortnight per employee. Virgin would then have to pay the difference between their normal wages while the business could operate.
With high freight prices they could simply do belly cargo their loss would be a fraction of leaving everything grounded.
BNEFlyer wrote:VA have announced they've gone into Voluntary Administration. They're not in liquidation, they haven't collapsed, no one has lost their job today, planes are still flying, Velocity points and travel bank credits are still there to be used.
Gemuser wrote:Blerg wrote:If Qantas is left as the only domestic player, why not cap the price of tickets?
Because the Australian Government does NOT have the power to fix prices! That power is reserved to the states and it is debatable if the state governments can use that power to directly control interstate airfares.
Gemuser