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Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:01 pm

This one seems to be making some waves in the industry:

Airbus (AIR.PA) has put six jets made for one of its largest customers up for sale after giving up on Malaysia’s AirAsia (AIRA.KL) taking delivery of them, sources familiar with the matter told Reuters.
...
Although “pop-up” sales of unwanted aircraft are not new, they rarely involve high-profile customers and typically include the manufacturer keeping the deposit, the sources said. Airbus declined to comment on whether it had done so this time.

“It is a harsh step to take,” said one source, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2221R2

I don't know if this is a COVID-19 thing, or fall out because of AAX's alleged anger over the handling of the corruption investigations, or something else.

The article suggests this is a risky move on Airbus's part:

Secondly, Airbus faces a risk that any cut-price deals will set a precedent for future jet sales.

“It’s a small community and the result of these tenders often gets out,” said a second source familiar with the auction.

Others said Airbus had little choice but to recoup as much as possible from the jets, worth $111-$130 million each at most recent list prices but less than half after typical discounts.

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tphuang
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:51 pm

well, if AirAsia is not taking A321s, then it's definitely not taking those A330s. I'd imagine leasing companies that are well funded (backed by central gov't) are going to make a killing in this market.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:51 pm

It's not just Air Asia, many airlines are deferring deliveries thus Airbus is sitting on some inventory. In March, Airbus delivered only 30 aircraft. The other half are stored, mothballed on the runway.

It's a repeat of what we have seen after 9/11 and 2008: Airbus will try to sell the aircraft that have already been build. Production slots will be shuffled around. This strategy turned out to be successful during the last two crises.
Good moaning!
 
smartplane
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
well, if AirAsia is not taking A321s, then it's definitely not taking those A330s. I'd imagine leasing companies that are well funded (backed by central gov't) are going to make a killing in this market.

Airbus would have knocked on the doors of 'well funded' leasing companies first if a serious effort to dispose of the aircraft. The only business 'well funded' leasing companies can fund at present are sale leasebacks of existing aircraft (where you can build in a value margin) for blue chip customers. Not exactly a plentiful supply of those opportunities.

A tough love message here to the customer community. Interesting to see Boeing's response to customers with 787 orders only (no MAX) in a similar position.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:35 pm

smartplane wrote:
tphuang wrote:
well, if AirAsia is not taking A321s, then it's definitely not taking those A330s. I'd imagine leasing companies that are well funded (backed by central gov't) are going to make a killing in this market.

Airbus would have knocked on the doors of 'well funded' leasing companies first if a serious effort to dispose of the aircraft.


Airbus surely has already had Sales work the Rolodex (Google it if you're under 45).

This is not going to be the last time this calendar year for which aircraft are substantially completed and scheduled receiving carriers have no money.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:37 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
It's not just Air Asia, many airlines are deferring deliveries thus Airbus is sitting on some inventory. In March, Airbus delivered only 30 aircraft. The other half are stored, mothballed on the runway.

It's a repeat of what we have seen after 9/11 and 2008: Airbus will try to sell the aircraft that have already been build. Production slots will be shuffled around. This strategy turned out to be successful during the last two crises.

Thanks for the background. I really don't recall this happening in other previous crises but then again the media is far more active these days. I called out this story since it was the first report I've seen where a vendor is willing to list undelivered new planes for sale. I'm sure the entire industry will have similar challenges.
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:45 pm

No one has any money to spend, particularly on brand-new aircraft. They'll be able to pick up gently-used ones for a song soon if they're in the market for airframes. But who is? Absolutely no one.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:49 pm

Maybe that`s MOL`s chance to get finally his hands on cheap buses ?
Crazy times we are living in
 
Kilopond
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:51 pm

Airbus started stockpiling their now odd, unwanted products at small provincial airports in March. Here are reports from RLG and ERF in the FRG`s acceding territory. In German, just look at the pics.

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenb ... ge302.html

https://www.mdr.de/thueringen/mitte-wes ... z-100.html
 
Palumboism
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:00 pm

Does this mean that AirAsia's order for 78 A330neo's is not going to happen?
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:08 pm

can "last minute buyers" expect discounts higher than the typical -50% from the list price?
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:16 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
No one has any money to spend, particularly on brand-new aircraft. They'll be able to pick up gently-used ones for a song soon if they're in the market for airframes. But who is? Absolutely no one.

To be clear, these aren't gently used frames, these are factory fresh airplanes that Airbus is offering because AirAsia is not willing to accept delivery.

Kilopond wrote:
Airbus started stockpiling their now odd, unwanted products at small provincial airports in March. Here are reports from RLG and ERF in the FRG`s acceding territory. In German, just look at the pics.

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenb ... ge302.html

https://www.mdr.de/thueringen/mitte-wes ... z-100.html

I read these in translation. It is interesting the text seems to be suggesting it is an issue with delivering planes to China. I suppose that was the earlier concern, but now it seems to be more general. Also it could be due to China being impacted first and others following later, rather than some problem specific to China.

Palumboism wrote:
Does this mean that AirAsia's order for 78 A330neo's is not going to happen?

The Reuters article says:

AirAsia co-founder Tony Fernandes said this month the group had no revenue and 96% of its fleet was grounded.

It's not very encouraging.
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:11 am

Somehow I am thinking about Bamboo as a potential buyer for those airframes as it just saved itself by selling 49% of its stakes.
QH may acquire those airframes and using SnLB strategy to get more cash, and with those airframe it may get on top of other opponents after the pandemic..
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smartplane
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:43 am

hiflyeras wrote:
No one has any money to spend, particularly on brand-new aircraft. They'll be able to pick up gently-used ones for a song soon if they're in the market for airframes. But who is? Absolutely no one.

There are people these ads may reach with personal fortunes which would permit a biz jet upgrade.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:22 am

why not leave it at TLS....AirAsia will surely take delivery of new planes in the future,
just produce 6 less planes for the in 202X...the only downside is it holding Airbus's cash for a few years
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:56 am

Palumboism wrote:
Does this mean that AirAsia's order for 78 A330neo's is not going to happen?


I think the vast majority of it is in danger whatever happens from now, but the survival of the company is at risk, big time. If AirAsia does survive I can see them using A321XLRs for most of their routes, needing only a few A330neos for a few of the more distant routes and some of the bulk routes.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:52 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Palumboism wrote:
Does this mean that AirAsia's order for 78 A330neo's is not going to happen?

I think the vast majority of it is in danger whatever happens from now, but the survival of the company is at risk, big time. If AirAsia does survive I can see them using A321XLRs for most of their routes, needing only a few A330neos for a few of the more distant routes and some of the bulk routes.

The Reuters report refers to Airasia Group's A320/A321 Neos that have not been taken up. In the past, Airasia has postponed deliveries when travel demand was soft. Later on, if Airbus is not able to deliver what they need, they just dived into the leasing market to make up the difference. I suspect that they will follow this SOP - postpone deliveries now and accelerate deliveries when demand for travel returns in the future.

Airasia X has a different order book with Airbus - we will have to wait for another announcement on the fate of the 4 or 5 A330 Neos that are in production now.

The main problem with the Airasia X orders would be whether the company is still a going concern. While many do not doubt that Airasia will survive, there are many more obstacles for Airasia X to overcome, chief of which are the travel bans imposed by most countries during the Covid-19 crisis. These bans will mean that flights cannot resume and Airasia X will not have any income.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:07 am

How can they just 'not take delivery' of them? Aren't they contractually obliged to? Couldn't Airbus take legal action...
I recognise that they want to not take delivery of them but surely it's not as easy as literally refusing to take delivery
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:19 am

flee wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Palumboism wrote:
Does this mean that AirAsia's order for 78 A330neo's is not going to happen?

I think the vast majority of it is in danger whatever happens from now, but the survival of the company is at risk, big time. If AirAsia does survive I can see them using A321XLRs for most of their routes, needing only a few A330neos for a few of the more distant routes and some of the bulk routes.

The Reuters report refers to Airasia Group's A320/A321 Neos that have not been taken up. In the past, Airasia has postponed deliveries when travel demand was soft. Later on, if Airbus is not able to deliver what they need, they just dived into the leasing market to make up the difference. I suspect that they will follow this SOP - postpone deliveries now and accelerate deliveries when demand for travel returns in the future.

Airasia X has a different order book with Airbus - we will have to wait for another announcement on the fate of the 4 or 5 A330 Neos that are in production now.

The main problem with the Airasia X orders would be whether the company is still a going concern. While many do not doubt that Airasia will survive, there are many more obstacles for Airasia X to overcome, chief of which are the travel bans imposed by most countries during the Covid-19 crisis. These bans will mean that flights cannot resume and Airasia X will not have any income.


If the longer routes become nonviable, maybe AirAsia X will fold, and AirAsia will simply take the A321XLRs and fly them where it can, or even just convert them to A321neos.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:20 am

jghealey wrote:
How can they just 'not take delivery' of them? Aren't they contractually obliged to? Couldn't Airbus take legal action...
I recognise that they want to not take delivery of them but surely it's not as easy as literally refusing to take delivery

There should be some terms the the contract about delivery deferral, including what the carrier (AirAsia in this case) have to do when it wants to defer its airframes' delivery, as well as compensation...
Of course Aib could take legal action, as if AirAsia violates term(s) in the contract.
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:34 am

MrHMSH wrote:
If the longer routes become nonviable, maybe AirAsia X will fold, and AirAsia will simply take the A321XLRs and fly them where it can, or even just convert them to A321neos.

Agree, the A330s might become unnecessary for the AirAsia Sys, that's when the A321XLR proven its capability.
We would see AAX subsidiaries being downsized to a (few) dozen(s) of A330s, and of course the order of nearly 100 A339 would eventually become too big. Even the number of AAX's currently operated airframes would be unnecessary and the carriers have to "yeet" some of them.

As a result, when the pandemic is over, we could see bunches of second-hand A330s and 787s from AirAsia and Norwegian flooding the market. And those bunches will become disasters for both BBoeing and Airbus.
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flee
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:43 am

jghealey wrote:
How can they just 'not take delivery' of them? Aren't they contractually obliged to? Couldn't Airbus take legal action...
I recognise that they want to not take delivery of them but surely it's not as easy as literally refusing to take delivery

Airbus' quick action suggests that there is some agreement made with the Airasia Group.

If there was disagreement, the whole 300+ plane order will be in doubt. Right now, I think both Airbus and Airasia Group are following the SOPs of their long business relationship.

MrHMSH wrote:
If the longer routes become nonviable, maybe AirAsia X will fold, and AirAsia will simply take the A321XLRs and fly them where it can, or even just convert them to A321neos.

Right now, it isn't even about longer routes - Korea and Japan, Airasia X's highest yielding markets, are currently closed to travellers from many countries. It is doubtful that Airasia X can make many flights to their Korean and Japanese destinations.

The A321 XLRs will only be available in about 3 years - by then, Airasia X may no longer be in existence if it fails to navigate Corvid-19 successfully!
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:11 am

flee wrote:
jghealey wrote:
How can they just 'not take delivery' of them? Aren't they contractually obliged to? Couldn't Airbus take legal action...
I recognise that they want to not take delivery of them but surely it's not as easy as literally refusing to take delivery

Airbus' quick action suggests that there is some agreement made with the Airasia Group.

If there was disagreement, the whole 300+ plane order will be in doubt. Right now, I think both Airbus and Airasia Group are following the SOPs of their long business relationship.

MrHMSH wrote:
If the longer routes become nonviable, maybe AirAsia X will fold, and AirAsia will simply take the A321XLRs and fly them where it can, or even just convert them to A321neos.

Right now, it isn't even about longer routes - Korea and Japan, Airasia X's highest yielding markets, are currently closed to travellers from many countries. It is doubtful that Airasia X can make many flights to their Korean and Japanese destinations.

The A321 XLRs will only be available in about 3 years - by then, Airasia X may no longer be in existence if it fails to navigate Corvid-19 successfully!


That's part of what I said, if AAX collapses then AK will take over a lot of AAX routes, with the A321XLR (or even regular neo in the meantime). Korea and Japan will reopen eventually.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:26 am

I rue the day Airbus got into bed with Tony Fernandes.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:12 am

MrHMSH wrote:
That's part of what I said, if AAX collapses then AK will take over a lot of AAX routes, with the A321XLR (or even regular neo in the meantime). Korea and Japan will reopen eventually.

If Airasia X collapses, the most probable action that will be taken would be for Airasia Group to merge with it. Unprofitable routes will be discarded and the route network will be simplified.

As for the fleet - A333 leases that will expire in the next 2 or 3 years will probably be terminated ahead of schedule. Airasia X is currently negotiating the early return of 5 aircraft and attempting the sale of 2 aircraft.

Airasia Group may merge their A321 Neo order with Airasia X's A321 XLR order. The numbers may change but I suspect fewer A321s will be taken and some A320 orders will be reinstated. This is because passenger traffic will be lower this year and not grow much in the next year or two. The existing A320 fleet may also be trimmed as they are surplus to requirements. 2019 traffic levels may take up to 5 years to be restored.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:38 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
It's not just Air Asia, many airlines are deferring deliveries thus Airbus is sitting on some inventory. In March, Airbus delivered only 30 aircraft. The other half are stored, mothballed on the runway.

It's a repeat of what we have seen after 9/11 and 2008: Airbus will try to sell the aircraft that have already been build. Production slots will be shuffled around. This strategy turned out to be successful during the last two crises.



I can assure you that this did not happen after 9/11 or during the GFC.

After 9/11 the groundings were limited in size and duration. The US was worst hit, but traffic started coming back after 3 months.
During the GFC there have been groundings in the U.S., but traffic continued to grow in Europe and Asia.

Global traffic in both 2008 and 2009 was higher than 2006 and any preceding years, but slightly lower than 2007 which was a record year.

See page 18 https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/tr ... l_2009.pdf

Some deliveries were deferred but the only NTU's were from bankrupt airlines like Skybus.


This crisis is going to be vastly , vastly worse for the airline industry than 9/11 and the GFC combined, both in destructiveness and duration, IMHO.

During the GFC, Airbus experienced another issue. The strong Euro made it very difficult to produce competitively.
This lead to the opening of the Mobile plant and also some speculative currency hedges which impacted them negatively for years after.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:49 am

A380MSN004 wrote:
can "last minute buyers" expect discounts higher than the typical -50% from the list price?


It's a buyer's market, but where are the buyers?
Are lessors/financiers going to buy aircraft to park them for 3-4 years?

IMO Airbus should keep producing A320's at full steam (with safety precautions for its workers), even if they end up piling white tails in the desert.
This crisis is actually an opportunity for them to catch up on the huge built-up demand and to close the market for the MAX, shfting to a monopoly.
The demand is going to come back very strong.

This lockdown will also lead to a huge babyboom with a demand surge in 5-10 years from now.

I would also put the A380 line closure further in the future. Writing down the closure of the program in a lossmaking period doesn't make any sense fiscally, plus we have to see what this crisis means for aviation in terms of demand.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:17 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
IMO Airbus should keep producing A320's at full steam (with safety precautions for its workers), even if they end up piling white tails in the desert.
This crisis is actually an opportunity for them to catch up on the huge built-up demand and to close the market for the MAX, shfting to a monopoly.
The demand is going to come back very strong.


Image

Airbus loves to display this long term delivery trend chart when it comes to predicting aircraft demand. It shows that aircraft deliveries are consistently increasing regardless of any downturn.

While it is a good idea to manufacture and "inventory" the aircraft, this will require a lot of capital and may not be practical. However, they may want to consider a small inventory of 5-10 aircraft in case some customer needs immediate delivery.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:04 pm

This complicates the AirAsia/Airbus relationship. I suspect the A330NEO order is at risk.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's a buyer's market, but where are the buyers?
Are lessors/financiers going to buy aircraft to park them for 3-4 years?

IMO Airbus should keep producing A320's at full steam (with safety precautions for its workers), even if they end up piling white tails in the desert.
This crisis is actually an opportunity for them to catch up on the huge built-up demand and to close the market for the MAX, shfting to a monopoly.
The demand is going to come back very strong.

This lockdown will also lead to a huge babyboom with a demand surge in 5-10 years from now.

I would also put the A380 line closure further in the future. Writing down the closure of the program in a lossmaking period doesn't make any sense fiscally, plus we have to see what this crisis means for aviation in terms of demand.

Airbus cannot afford to carry all the vendors. Production was slowed an I suspect it will slow further.

This is a buyers market and it will take oil consistently above $30/bbl to create demand. I believe production will drop further. Let us see. Then again, I live in a city where half the incomes stopped other than government handouts. The government cannot afford handouts when half the tax revenue went away.

There are some buyers at the right price. For example Vietnam.

The issue is customers will cancel at prior pricing.

Airbus must adapt. Keeping the A380 line burns cash Airbus lacks. Much of the work is done anyway. There is no pretending there will be any VLA demand for years.

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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:22 pm

jghealey wrote:
How can they just 'not take delivery' of them? Aren't they contractually obliged to? Couldn't Airbus take legal action...
I recognise that they want to not take delivery of them but surely it's not as easy as literally refusing to take delivery

I'm sure AirAsia could find some defects in the carpet and return the planes to Airbus for refit; someone did it already (cough cough AAB cough).
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:27 pm

I wonder if the next operators of those A321NXs could change the door config of the airframes (for example, the unactivation of Door 3 or One Overwing Exit).
Are those modifications possible/easy on A321neo ACF airframes?

All doors are activated on AK's A321neo:
Image
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:34 pm

Antaras wrote:
I wonder if the next operators of those A321NXs could change the door config of the airframes (for example, the unactivation of Door 3 or One Overwing Exit).
Are those modifications possible/easy on A321neo ACF airframes?

All doors are activated on AK's A321neo:
Image
@xfw-spotter

Those are just simple plugs- it is very easy to deactivate/reactivate exits. Obviously you can’t convert it to the old door layout though.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:15 pm

PM wrote:
I rue the day Airbus got into bed with Tony Fernandes.


Why? Even if Air Asia is to collapse tomorrow, Airbus have already delivered thousands of planes to them and I'm sure made billions of dollars.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:00 pm

zkojq wrote:
PM wrote:
I rue the day Airbus got into bed with Tony Fernandes.


Why? Even if Air Asia is to collapse tomorrow, Airbus have already delivered thousands of planes to them and I'm sure made billions of dollars.

Thousands of planes? A slight exaggeration.... but yes I'm sure they've made billions of dollars.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:07 pm

The German government is currently in the process to buy fighter jets from Boeing and Airbus. Believe it or not, part of the agreement between the two governing parties is that the German Army is immediately taking two A321 original procured by Lufthansa. But Lufthansa can't take them due to the Covid-19 situation.

Link to Der Spiegel article (German language): https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschl ... 7e32f1766#
 
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zkojq
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:25 pm

jghealey wrote:
zkojq wrote:
PM wrote:
I rue the day Airbus got into bed with Tony Fernandes.


Why? Even if Air Asia is to collapse tomorrow, Airbus have already delivered thousands of planes to them and I'm sure made billions of dollars.

Thousands of planes? A slight exaggeration.... but yes I'm sure they've made billions of dollars.


:banghead: Oops, yes a gross exaggeration indeed - not sure why I said that. I'd guess ~300-400 planes all up once you've accounted for all their various franchises/subsidiaries.
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:28 pm

zkojq wrote:
jghealey wrote:
zkojq wrote:

Why? Even if Air Asia is to collapse tomorrow, Airbus have already delivered thousands of planes to them and I'm sure made billions of dollars.

Thousands of planes? A slight exaggeration.... but yes I'm sure they've made billions of dollars.


:banghead: Oops, yes a gross exaggeration indeed - not sure why I said that. I'd guess ~300-400 planes all up once you've accounted for all their various franchises/subsidiaries.

Dodgy money. I used to work for a clone of TF.
 
MoreMiles
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:53 am

The Airline business is going to go through a huge transformation during and after the Covid Pandemic. For the next 2 - 5 years, I cannot see traffic climbing to the level in Dec 2019. I do see many airlines going out of business. Airlines are going to get smaller. I am curious about the Low Cost Carriers. Will they be able to get a profitable load factor?
I think all Low Cost Carrier, Air Asia, Ryanair, Easyjet, Spirit, and others will likely need to change their model over the next 2 years....

Airbus and Boeing will definitely be affected as well. We will very likely see much smaller deliveries....

Just my $0.02
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:12 am

zkojq wrote:
jghealey wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why? Even if Air Asia is to collapse tomorrow, Airbus have already delivered thousands of planes to them and I'm sure made billions of dollars.

Thousands of planes? A slight exaggeration.... but yes I'm sure they've made billions of dollars.

:banghead: Oops, yes a gross exaggeration indeed - not sure why I said that. I'd guess ~300-400 planes all up once you've accounted for all their various franchises/subsidiaries.

Airasia Group has taken delivery of around 230 aircraft direct from their order book with Airbus. Airasia X only received 20.

They operate more planes than that - but these are from lessors' order books.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:10 am

In the OP's link it noted
With most airlines struggling financially and reluctant to take deliveries, the move could lead to pressure from other customers to find new homes for aircraft they no longer want, triggering a broader sale of undelivered jets, the sources said.

Airbus has said it has 60 aircraft already built that it is unable to deliver, partly for logistical reasons.

Secondly, Airbus faces a risk that any cut-price deals will set a precedent for future jet sales.


that is 60 Planes, I believe "unable to deliver", means the customer was unable to deliver payment.

Announcing a public sale of 6 planes means that everyone in the Rolodex were 'unavailable', the captive financing the OEM always has, has balked, and no other airline would swap positions. If 6 have gotten to this point, it will be a long time befure AirAsia takes any delivery.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:19 am

MoreMiles wrote:
The Airline business is going to go through a huge transformation during and after the Covid Pandemic. For the next 2 - 5 years, I cannot see traffic climbing to the level in Dec 2019. I do see many airlines going out of business. Airlines are going to get smaller. I am curious about the Low Cost Carriers. Will they be able to get a profitable load factor?
I think all Low Cost Carrier, Air Asia, Ryanair, Easyjet, Spirit, and others will likely need to change their model over the next 2 years....

Airbus and Boeing will definitely be affected as well. We will very likely see much smaller deliveries....

Just my $0.02

Yes, it will be a huge challenge for the aviation industry for the next 4-5 years.

I would hate to be working at Boeing now! With 400+ built up planes, many of which may now be ntu's, 100+ cancellations and 777X under development, positive cashflow is now severely constrained. Airbus is in a similar state, although their problem is not as large, it is equally complex. Deliveries this year will be a fraction of last year's numbers. They will be lucky if they can achieve a third of last year's deliveries!

We wait and see...

JayinKitsap wrote:
In the OP's link it noted
With most airlines struggling financially and reluctant to take deliveries, the move could lead to pressure from other customers to find new homes for aircraft they no longer want, triggering a broader sale of undelivered jets, the sources said.

Airbus has said it has 60 aircraft already built that it is unable to deliver, partly for logistical reasons.

Secondly, Airbus faces a risk that any cut-price deals will set a precedent for future jet sales.

that is 60 Planes, I believe "unable to deliver", means the customer was unable to deliver payment.

Announcing a public sale of 6 planes means that everyone in the Rolodex were 'unavailable', the captive financing the OEM always has, has balked, and no other airline would swap positions. If 6 have gotten to this point, it will be a long time befure AirAsia takes any delivery.

The aircraft that Airbus put up for sale are fully built, and to Airasia's cabin specs - remember Airasia Group flights don't last for more than 4 hours. As such, comfort won't be a top priority. It is also in single class 186 (A320) and 236 (A321) seat configuration. It sort of makes it less appealing for non LCC airlines to acquire.
Last edited by flee on Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:26 am

flee wrote:
The aircraft that Airbus put up for sale are fully built, and to Airasia's cabin specs - remember Airasia Group flights don't last for more than 4 hours. As such, comfort won't be a top priority. It is also in single class 186 (A320) and 236 (A321) seat configuration. It sort of makes it less appealing for non LCC airlines to acquire.

Guess that FSCs will find no problem reconfigurating those airframes.
Even if the buyer(s) is/are LCC(s), guess that those carriers might change the seats as they might not want "Air Asia"-branded seats on their aircraft.
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:56 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
In the OP's link it noted
With most airlines struggling financially and reluctant to take deliveries, the move could lead to pressure from other customers to find new homes for aircraft they no longer want, triggering a broader sale of undelivered jets, the sources said.

Airbus has said it has 60 aircraft already built that it is unable to deliver, partly for logistical reasons.

Secondly, Airbus faces a risk that any cut-price deals will set a precedent for future jet sales.


that is 60 Planes, I believe "unable to deliver", means the customer was unable to deliver payment.

Announcing a public sale of 6 planes means that everyone in the Rolodex were 'unavailable', the captive financing the OEM always has, has balked, and no other airline would swap positions. If 6 have gotten to this point, it will be a long time befure AirAsia takes any delivery.

I agree with the last sentence: AirAsia was scrambling before covid-19, now it is really under pressure.

The lack of delivery in some cases could be due to things like border closures making it impossible to get pilots to take the planes, inspectors to do needed inspections, etc. On the other hand, some may be using such challenges as excuses to not take aircraft they can't finance.

I am surprised Airbus went direct to market with these planes. I would have thought they would have handled this quietly. Since they did not, I presume they want the market to know they will not just sit on undelivered planes, they will do what is needed to protect their interests. In essence they wanted to make an example using this particular situation to show the market how they will deal with undelivered planes.

It is interesting that AirAsia is the customer being made an example of. As I suggested in the thread starter, there were earlier media reports that the Airbus / AirAsia relationship was very strained due to AA thinking Airbus could have handled the corruption scandal better. Maybe this meant Airbus was OK using AirAsia of an example of what happens if one does not work with them to find acceptable approaches to postponing delivery.

It is interesting the planes are A320 family and not the A330neo. I guess Airbus knows there's a good chance someone else will come bargain hunting for A320 family aircraft, much less so for A330neo.

Airbus has played hard ball before. They drove SkyMark into bankruptcy due to missed payments on A380. This crisis will probably generate more opportunities for ugliness in the future.
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 am

Antaras wrote:
flee wrote:
The aircraft that Airbus put up for sale are fully built, and to Airasia's cabin specs - remember Airasia Group flights don't last for more than 4 hours. As such, comfort won't be a top priority. It is also in single class 186 (A320) and 236 (A321) seat configuration. It sort of makes it less appealing for non LCC airlines to acquire.

Guess that FSCs will find no problem reconfigurating those airframes.
Even if the buyer(s) is/are LCC(s), guess that those carriers might change the seats as they might not want "Air Asia"-branded seats on their aircraft.


It's not the first time AirAsia haven't taken up aircraft from Airbus. I flew on one of Pegasus' brand new A320s in 2015 and thought it strange it had AirAsia branding on the seats. I assumed it was some kind of lease deal, however I did some research and discovered that TC-DCG/H/I were all originally destined for AK.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
In the OP's link it noted
With most airlines struggling financially and reluctant to take deliveries, the move could lead to pressure from other customers to find new homes for aircraft they no longer want, triggering a broader sale of undelivered jets, the sources said.

Airbus has said it has 60 aircraft already built that it is unable to deliver, partly for logistical reasons.

Secondly, Airbus faces a risk that any cut-price deals will set a precedent for future jet sales.


that is 60 Planes, I believe "unable to deliver", means the customer was unable to deliver payment.

Announcing a public sale of 6 planes means that everyone in the Rolodex were 'unavailable', the captive financing the OEM always has, has balked, and no other airline would swap positions. If 6 have gotten to this point, it will be a long time befure AirAsia takes any delivery.

It is interesting the planes are A320 family and not the A330neo. I guess Airbus knows there's a good chance someone else will come bargain hunting for A320 family aircraft, much less so for A330neo.

Airbus has played hard ball before. They drove SkyMark into bankruptcy due to missed payments on A380. This crisis will probably generate more opportunities for ugliness in the future.

Any bad news from the A330neo program in these times will be mortal to the program, they will certainly want to keep things quiet on that front.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
I am surprised Airbus went direct to market with these planes. I would have thought they would have handled this quietly. Since they did not, I presume they want the market to know they will not just sit on undelivered planes, they will do what is needed to protect their interests. In essence they wanted to make an example using this particular situation to show the market how they will deal with undelivered planes.

I think Airbus realises that Covid-19 has placed a lot of pressure on its deliveries and will try to make hay before the sun sets. There are 2 A321NXs in this job lot of 6 planes and they may be using them to attract buyers - so selling it as a job lot may be a good move. Moving forward, it may not be so easy to remarket ntu's.

Revelation wrote:
It is interesting that AirAsia is the customer being made an example of. As I suggested in the thread starter, there were earlier media reports that the Airbus / AirAsia relationship was very strained due to AA thinking Airbus could have handled the corruption scandal better. Maybe this meant Airbus was OK using AirAsia of an example of what happens if one does not work with them to find acceptable approaches to postponing delivery.

There is no doubt that the relationship between the two companies have changed. Gone is the free and easy attitude that Airbus took in the past. Gone too is the talk by Airasia that Airbus is one of their closest partners. It is now strictly business, no more family talk.

In the past Airasia has been very quick to postpone deliveries when market conditions change, only to get it wrong. They then found that by postponing delivery, they did not have sufficient aircraft when markets or their plans changed again. As such, they have taken a number of additional aircraft from leasing companies and not from Airbus directly. They are doing the postponing of deliveries again this time - but I am not sure if any recovery will be as quick as in the past.

Revelation wrote:
It is interesting the planes are A320 family and not the A330neo. I guess Airbus knows there's a good chance someone else will come bargain hunting for A320 family aircraft, much less so for A330neo.

Airbus has played hard ball before. They drove SkyMark into bankruptcy due to missed payments on A380. This crisis will probably generate more opportunities for ugliness in the future.
Well, the widebody market is now extremely soft and there is no point doing a firesale now - they won't get any takers!

Skymark is a good model to use, should Airasia X decide that they cannot continue in its present form. Airbus can make its claims as creditors for those 3 or 4 frames that have been built for Airasia X.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale as crisis deepens

Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:28 pm

PM wrote:
zkojq wrote:
jghealey wrote:
Thousands of planes? A slight exaggeration.... but yes I'm sure they've made billions of dollars.


:banghead: Oops, yes a gross exaggeration indeed - not sure why I said that. I'd guess ~300-400 planes all up once you've accounted for all their various franchises/subsidiaries.

Dodgy money. I used to work for a clone of TF.


Dirty how?
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Varsity1
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:20 pm

Are these Pratt or CFM engines?
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:35 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Are these Pratt or CFM engines?

CFM. They've been a longtime partner of AirAsia and Tony Fernandes.
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a2b7
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Re: Reuters: Airbus puts 3 A321neo and 3 A320 made for AirAsia up for sale

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
In the OP's link it noted
With most airlines struggling financially and reluctant to take deliveries, the move could lead to pressure from other customers to find new homes for aircraft they no longer want, triggering a broader sale of undelivered jets, the sources said.

Airbus has said it has 60 aircraft already built that it is unable to deliver, partly for logistical reasons.

Secondly, Airbus faces a risk that any cut-price deals will set a precedent for future jet sales.


that is 60 Planes, I believe "unable to deliver", means the customer was unable to deliver payment.

Announcing a public sale of 6 planes means that everyone in the Rolodex were 'unavailable', the captive financing the OEM always has, has balked, and no other airline would swap positions. If 6 have gotten to this point, it will be a long time befure AirAsia takes any delivery.

I agree with the last sentence: AirAsia was scrambling before covid-19, now it is really under pressure.

The lack of delivery in some cases could be due to things like border closures making it impossible to get pilots to take the planes, inspectors to do needed inspections, etc. On the other hand, some may be using such challenges as excuses to not take aircraft they can't finance.

I am surprised Airbus went direct to market with these planes. I would have thought they would have handled this quietly. Since they did not, I presume they want the market to know they will not just sit on undelivered planes, they will do what is needed to protect their interests. In essence they wanted to make an example using this particular situation to show the market how they will deal with undelivered planes.

It is interesting that AirAsia is the customer being made an example of. As I suggested in the thread starter, there were earlier media reports that the Airbus / AirAsia relationship was very strained due to AA thinking Airbus could have handled the corruption scandal better. Maybe this meant Airbus was OK using AirAsia of an example of what happens if one does not work with them to find acceptable approaches to postponing delivery.

It is interesting the planes are A320 family and not the A330neo. I guess Airbus knows there's a good chance someone else will come bargain hunting for A320 family aircraft, much less so for A330neo.

Airbus has played hard ball before. They drove SkyMark into bankruptcy due to missed payments on A380. This crisis will probably generate more opportunities for ugliness in the future.

There was an interesting article on Flightglobal on one solution Airbus uses to overcome difficulties in transferring aircraft due to COVID-19 yesterday: https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and-deliveries/airbus-engages-remote-delivery-initiative-to-transfer-aircraft-to-customers/137980.article
Airbus offers so-called remote delivery to counter restrictions related to things like border closures. Pegasus have used that process recently to receive 3 aircraft.

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