Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 15
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3641
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:09 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
Is there any market for the used 717s? I don't see a value in an exchange if they would just be junked. Are they less-used than HA's current fleet on 717s, that could at least extend 717 flying those short hops in Hawaii?


QantasLink seems to stick out as a customer if not Hawaiian. However, another customer for all 88 leased B712s? (Delta owns 3 of the 91 frames---the ex-Blue1 frames, purchased from Standard Chartered in 2015 and 2016). I could see Delta desiring to keep these frames in one region of the country as more BCS1/3 frames come in...perhaps out of ATL for short Southeast region hops? The idea is to use the B712 for routes requiring quick turns, with the BCS1/3 for longer turns, and it may also be a good idea to put the BCS1/3 on the Delta Shuttle, showcasing the newest model on the Shuttle routes from LGA...the idea being also to end Skywest (as Delta Connection) flying out of the NYC market.
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 1033
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:11 am

Things are not making sense anymore since February 2020...
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:14 am

I guess the more I do think about it, I could see there being some bit possibility to this, but this rumor is missing a whole lot of context, specifically around timing.
Timing of the 717 lease turn-ins (likely sooner or over some phased period of time earlier than planned and timing of the 737MAX order (likely way down the road).

The reality is that DL is facing a bunch of engine overhauls, heavy maintenance, and the need to interior refresh on the aging/orphan/odd-ball fleet type if they were to want to keep them out beyond the next few months/years. It gets harder to justify with so many brand new aircraft parked in storage facilities all over the country.
 
ord
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:22 am

UA444 wrote:
91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.


The 717 does not allow more 76 seaters at UA. Only the A220-100, E190 or E195 do.
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:30 am

This makes perfect sense to me.

Delta returns the 717s to Boeing now, with no more lease payments due, immediately shrinking its fleet by 91 frames. In exchange, it signs a purchase agreement for 100 737MAX at favorable terms that start coming on property in 2022 or later, when the grounding is just a vague memory for most consumers. Now Delta has frames it can use to replace old A320s or B738s or, perhaps, even to grow off the new baseline. And Boeing gets a marquee carrier into its order book for the MAX and resumes a relationship with the one member of the US3 who currently has no orders in Boeing’s book.

This is actually an entirely logical move, once you see the rough contours.
Last edited by jrkmsp on Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:31 am

ord wrote:
UA444 wrote:
91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.


The 717 does not allow more 76 seaters at UA. Only the A220-100, E190 or E195 do.


So you think UA pilots would turn down flying the 717? I don't think so.
 
UA444
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:38 am

ord wrote:
UA444 wrote:
91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.


The 717 does not allow more 76 seaters at UA. Only the A220-100, E190 or E195 do.

Yes it does. It qualifies as a new small narrowbody. It’s also in the language and has a pay scale.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:39 am

I cant think of a worse decision than this. That plane needs to be parked forever, and DL is shrinking (those internally know what im talking about so im not saying anything here). If Delta was to put any of these deathtraps on property I cant think of anything that would catapult me to a non flyer faster. Screw Medallion status, if the airline is that careless with its people the planet is better off with me not flying around anyway.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
UA444
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:40 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

UA doesn't want anything that small. It's not aircraft economics - it's UA mainline economics.

91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.


We can talk about UA's 2-class RJ relief strategy in another thread but if UA didn't want cheap 737-700s they won't want 717s at any price. https://crankyflier.com/2016/11/17/unit ... eplace-it/

New 73G’s are still way more expensive than these would be and also would not qualify as the new small narrowbody in order to be able to add more E75’s.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:43 am

As I wrote earlier, if this rumor is true, it’s likely because DL is on the hook for ~10 more years worth of lease payments on the 717 leased via Boeing Capital and is seeking to return the planes now for minimal penalty, in exchange for agreeing to purchase the MAX later. It’s probable deliveries wouldn’t even begin until later this decade, when the crux of the 737 / 757 / 319 / 320 fleet is aging out.

There’s been some fairly strong pilot rumors that DL had cold feet about keeping the 717 even before the pandemic, so I certainly wouldn’t discount this rumor. Ultimately, it allows DL to get rid of a group of planes it doesn’t want now, in exchange for planes it would’ve likely ordered anyhow later.
 
744SPX
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:55 am

In the name of God why? To piss off passengers? The flying experience on the 717 is FAR better than any 737 due to the 2-3 seating and consequently wider economy class seats. Another strike against Delta is this is true.
 
United857
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:37 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:56 am

Delta probably wants to offload their 91 717s because they are coming up on an airworthiness directive for all the economy seats. Apparently the Zodiac seats have a design flaw where the ledge at the top of the tray table has the potential to break people's necks in an emergency landing (https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 102075468/). The directive was issued in 2017 giving all airlines 5 years to remove the seats from service, so if Delta wants to keep them beyond 2022, they have to refurbish the cabin. At that point, if a good deal can be made on 737 MAXs, Delta may just take it.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:01 am

744SPX wrote:
In the name of God why? To piss off passengers? The flying experience on the 717 is FAR better than any 737 due to the 2-3 seating and consequently wider economy class seats. Another strike against Delta is this is true.


I don't understand comments like these. Everyone said that airlines shouldn't be dependent on one manufacturer after the Max incidents. But does that just go one way? If what was posted upthread is true and Delta is parking the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and 767 then they will be very Airbus heavy.
 
744SPX
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
744SPX wrote:
In the name of God why? To piss off passengers? The flying experience on the 717 is FAR better than any 737 due to the 2-3 seating and consequently wider economy class seats. Another strike against Delta is this is true.


I don't understand comments like these. Everyone said that airlines shouldn't be dependent on one manufacturer after the Max incidents. But does that just go one way? If what was posted upthread is true and Delta is parking the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and 767 then they will be very Airbus heavy.



Boeing is the one who decided to terminate production of the 717 despite it having more advanced engines than the 737NG and being more efficient than the 737-600 and 700. This has nothing to do with Airbus or airlines only buying from only manufacturer.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:21 am

UA444 wrote:
ord wrote:
UA444 wrote:
91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.


The 717 does not allow more 76 seaters at UA. Only the A220-100, E190 or E195 do.

Yes it does. It qualifies as a new small narrowbody. It’s also in the language and has a pay scale.


You certainly aren’t looking at the United Pilots Agreement (UPA). The 717 appears no where in the language nor is it on the pay scales.

1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:35 am

The 717 was discontinued because nobody wanted it. Even AirTran had stopped buying it in favor of more 73G, which it claimed had similar trip costs but could generate more revenue (because of additional seating). Later, Southwest claimed it tried to sublease the 717 but found no takers and was considering parking some of the fleet; ultimately DL expressed interest but only if WN agreed to heavily subsidize the transfer. DL was interested in the aircraft primarily for scope relief. Later, the three large 717 operators bid for the few aircraft that came onto the market.

Even before the pandemic, there were strong pilot rumors that DL was souring on the 717, just months after it announced it was keeping them long-term. If DL chooses to phase out the 717 soon, some of these aircraft may find their way to other operators, but the crux of the fleet will likely be permanently scrapped.

The 717 is a fine aircraft, and a major upgrade from a passenger perspective over the CRJ series, but the Boeing fan boys need to stop pretending this aircraft is something it’s not.
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:38 am

cessna2 wrote:
Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs. So assuming Boeing got wind of this, why not offer some new Max jets to be delivered at a later date and take the financial burden of parking the 717 fleet off of DL's hands? Seems like a win/win for everyone involved.


Is there a link to this ALPA announcement about Delta's planned cuts you can share?

As for the Tweet and the behind-a-paywall article speculating that Delta is trying to swap 717 leases for a future 737MAX order, airlines usually announce these things first via webcasts to the investment community. There is such a webcast scheduled for tomorrow, so maybe we will know more then?

https://ir.delta.com/news/news-details/ ... fault.aspx
 
OB1504
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:39 am

jbs2886 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.


When you trade-in a car for a new one, do you get the brand new one for no extra cost? Highly unlikely. That would be the same here. Furthermore, the 717s are mostly leased from Boeing anyways.


You might get the manufacturer to go for it if the new car was basically a Ford Pinto.
 
winginit
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:46 am

I too should like to trade in my two used Honda Civics for a BMW.

I typically hold Jon's takes in pretty high regard for accuracy but this seems very far-fetched.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:51 am

I’m flabbergasted that some people think Delta needs/wants new airplanes but United doesn’t and can’t buy them. United has taken delivery of a 777-300ER and 787-10 since the pandemic started. They also have older narrowbody aircraft that need to be replaced.
 
N292UX
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:52 am

Well if this trade does (somehow) happen, I'd imagine some carriers would pick up those 717s. Wouldn't blow me away if some of DL's Skyteam buddies end up picking some of them up

I'd keep an eye on KLM, LATAM, Virgin Atlantic, Garuda, and... Aeroflot
Last edited by N292UX on Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:53 am

There's a lot of confusion here as to why this deal makes sense, but it's pretty rational when you break it down. "Trade in" is confusing terminology, but it doesn't necessarily mean a zero cost transaction. Basically:

- Boeing lets Delta out of the 717 leases now. Delta saves the capital cost of paying for them starting immediately, and Boeing gets the airframes back with the opportunity to remarket them if they happen to find any takers. This is a concession to Delta.
- In exchange, Delta agrees to buy new 737 MAX aircraft a few years down the road, likely at a very good but not insane price. By then, travel will hopefully be recovering. Delta gets the fleet renewal they'll need to replace the old airplanes that are now permanently gone with something modern and efficient. Boeing gets a new customer who can take over all the cancelled 737MAX orders that will be coming down the pipe - and a blue chip one at that who can help restore confidence in the plane.

In short, this deal is potentially favorable to both parties. Boeing gets to fill a bunch of production slots by selling to a blue chip customer with a great safety reputation who can help build confidence in the MAX. Delta gets short term cash flow flexibility and can remove an older aircraft from the fleet to rapidly downsize in the short term, and all they need to do in exchange is to agree to buy a slightly troubled aircraft in a few years when it should be the best-validated design in all of commercial aviation.

Boeing is desperate. Delta is a little less desperate but could really use some financial flexibility right now. Both companies should come out smelling like roses from this transaction.
Last edited by bcbhokie on Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8478
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:00 am

Shallow climber for a rocket. Keep 717s and ask for 100 MAXes for $100 even. They might do it. Just try.
All posts are just opinions.
 
jreuschl
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:04 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:10 am

While Jon usually is a good source, he has a number of times over the last few months given a 'scoop' of all US airlines being forced to shut down to stop spread of Covid. Hasn't happened.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:13 am

If there is some merit to this, it’s intriguing but there are a lot of other wildcard that need to be considered.

Airbus - has a huge backlog of orders in the near term that DL is likely going to want to defer as much as possible. The ~200 A220, A321CEO, A321NEO, A339, A359s all are going to be subject to a lot of negotiation. Airbus is going to want to preserve the order status, terms, and timing to the extent feasible while also trying to appease DL and try to keep Boeing out to the extent possible.

DALPA - how would the removal of the 717 fleet factor into near and long term scope clauses or relief? How does this impact the pending furlough, pilot pools, base realignments?

Ultimately does the timing and financial details make sense in the current environment where we can barely project 2-4 weeks out, let alone 2-4 years? What is the timing one needs to finalize this deal?
At what point does DL need to “$hit or get off the pot” on either keeping the 717s around and reinvest in t fleet or let them go? Since it’s with Boeing They can always Continue to use the 717s as leverage down the road even if it doesn’t make sense right now.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4854
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:20 am

I think Delta has alot of more pressing issues at the moment, i cant see this being a priority. I just don't see this happening but i do kind of see returning the 717's logic and getting new planes in 2023 or later.

The media will spin this as delta is using stimulus money to buy planes or something. Sounds like a PR nightmare.


I'm gonna make a guess here and say this is just a bad rumor....based off of someone with too much time thinking of possibilities
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7358
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:24 am

UA444 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
91 717s triggers the clause that UA can add more 76 seaters, which is what they’ve wanted. The acquisition costs would be low for these planes too. Since they won’t order the A220, this is a perfect scenario and one I would love to see.


We can talk about UA's 2-class RJ relief strategy in another thread but if UA didn't want cheap 737-700s they won't want 717s at any price. https://crankyflier.com/2016/11/17/unit ... eplace-it/

New 73G’s are still way more expensive than these would be and also would not qualify as the new small narrowbody in order to be able to add more E75’s.

United taking more 73Gs and 319s is still a lot cheaper than introducing a whole new fleet type from what is essentially from another producer thus not fitting in at all with their current fleet needing its own procedures, spare parts, engines, etc... I begrudgingly write this because I would love to see a 717 wear the globe.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7358
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:28 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The 717 was discontinued because nobody wanted it. Even AirTran had stopped buying it in favor of more 73G, which it claimed had similar trip costs but could generate more revenue (because of additional seating). Later, Southwest claimed it tried to sublease the 717 but found no takers and was considering parking some of the fleet; ultimately DL expressed interest but only if WN agreed to heavily subsidize the transfer. DL was interested in the aircraft primarily for scope relief. Later, the three large 717 operators bid for the few aircraft that came onto the market.

Even before the pandemic, there were strong pilot rumors that DL was souring on the 717, just months after it announced it was keeping them long-term. If DL chooses to phase out the 717 soon, some of these aircraft may find their way to other operators, but the crux of the fleet will likely be permanently scrapped.

The 717 is a fine aircraft, and a major upgrade from a passenger perspective over the CRJ series, but the Boeing fan boys need to stop pretending this aircraft is something it’s not.

Air Tran was actually pushing Boeing to develop the 717-300. But Boeing countered with a deal Air Tran couldn't walk away from on the 737.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
asr0dzjq
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:30 am

Oooooooohh... let me grab my popcorn. This will be fun.
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7358
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:32 am

N292UX wrote:
Well if this trade does (somehow) happen, I'd imagine some carriers would pick up those 717s. Wouldn't blow me away if some of DL's Skyteam buddies end up picking some of them up

I'd keep an eye on KLM, LATAM, Virgin Atlantic, Garuda, and... Aeroflot

In order:
Needs larger aircraft for slot constraints
All Airbus for narrowbody, 717 would be an oddball
Just no
See above
Current state of affairs says no plus Superjet
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7358
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:39 am

I can see this, Delta dumps the 717. Yeah they want to downsize but 91 aircraft along with the MDs is still nothing to sneeze at and still leaves quite a void. 100 MAXs for 150-200 (Idk the actual fleet count) MDs/717s is still a big downsize for the fleet and seat counts of the DL fleet. Boeing then offers the 717s to HA and QF and offers needed upgrades/fixes on the house to keep them from crossing to the A220. To sweeten the pot, DL offers their 777s (in reference to a previous poster referring to a pilot union notice from DL) with the MDs/717s that Boeing does whatever with.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3641
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:02 am

cessna2 wrote:
Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs. So assuming Boeing got wind of this, why not offer some new Max jets to be delivered at a later date and take the financial burden of parking the 717 fleet off of DL's hands? Seems like a win/win for everyone involved.


Parking the B77L? So what would fly ATL-JNB, LAX-Australia, or JFK-BOM? (I believe the A359 could do the latter two, even at 268t MTOW, JFK-BOM or LAX-SYD, but unless DL plans to wait for the higher MTOW A35K, nothing else can do ATL-JNB.) I can understand parking the B772, B763 (with P&W engines), and the 6-door B763s, but not the B77L.
 
DL777200LR
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:12 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs. So assuming Boeing got wind of this, why not offer some new Max jets to be delivered at a later date and take the financial burden of parking the 717 fleet off of DL's hands? Seems like a win/win for everyone involved.


Parking the B77L? So what would fly ATL-JNB, LAX-Australia, or JFK-BOM? (I believe the A359 could do the latter two, even at 268t MTOW, JFK-BOM or LAX-SYD, but unless DL plans to wait for the higher MTOW A35K, nothing else can do ATL-JNB.) I can understand parking the B772, B763 (with P&W engines), and the 6-door B763s, but not the B77L.


The 77L is going nowhere anytime soon. I don't get why there are always constant posts saying that DL is going to retire 777 fleet soon.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
sdh9
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:25 am

ACA772LR wrote:
All of this and DL wants to downsize their fleet, makes no sense


Airlines can downsize fleets and take delivery of new aircraft at the same time.
 
KFTG
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:52 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
I cant think of a worse decision than this. That plane needs to be parked forever, and DL is shrinking (those internally know what im talking about so im not saying anything here). If Delta was to put any of these deathtraps on property I cant think of anything that would catapult me to a non flyer faster. Screw Medallion status, if the airline is that careless with its people the planet is better off with me not flying around anyway.

Let me guess. You've flown multiple flights on the DC-10 in the past?
 
KFTG
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:58 am

N292UX wrote:
I'd keep an eye on KLM, LATAM, Virgin Atlantic, Garuda, and... Aeroflot

I'm stunned you edited your posts only once...
Garuda wants *nothing* to do with a 100 seater.
They are trying to offload their fleet of CRJ-1000s as we speak.
 
IAD787
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:54 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:14 am

Hey all,

Been a while since I've posted. Just for emphasis here, there were four sources on this particular part (the Delta 717/Max trade) of a much more expansive story about how Boeing and Airbus are keeping airplanes moving to customers. No guarantee the deal materializes as Boeing is loathe to let Delta out of the 717 leases, but this is all very real and bullet proof reporting by any editorial standard. Thanks for reading!

Jon
IAD787
Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter turned Editor-in-chief of The Air Current.
 
IAD787
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:54 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:19 am

jreuschl wrote:
While Jon usually is a good source, he has a number of times over the last few months given a 'scoop' of all US airlines being forced to shut down to stop spread of Covid. Hasn't happened.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


Also, I think you're confusing me with someone else. This was my report on the potential for a shutdown from mid-March.
https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/coro ... -shutdown/

I missed you a.net crowd.

Jon
IAD787
Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter turned Editor-in-chief of The Air Current.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1871
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:20 am

KFTG wrote:
So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.

What arrogance? Who said no additional money would not be involved (IF this rumor is true, which I doubt. But I digress).
Where's the arrogance in saying "take my 717s back and I'll order some 737MAXes"?

And, if Boeing accepted the deal as is (91 10-20 year old 717s for 100 brand new 737MAXes), would DL really be arrogant? Or would Boeing be desperate???
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:31 am

KFTG wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
I cant think of a worse decision than this. That plane needs to be parked forever, and DL is shrinking (those internally know what im talking about so im not saying anything here). If Delta was to put any of these deathtraps on property I cant think of anything that would catapult me to a non flyer faster. Screw Medallion status, if the airline is that careless with its people the planet is better off with me not flying around anyway.

Let me guess. You've flown multiple flights on the DC-10 in the past?


Yet the WN pilot I talked to right after they started getting the MAXs talked about how much he enjoyed flying the MAX. Posts like that are based in purely on emotions and feelings. Fanboys are annoying.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1359
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:33 am

The B717 fleet is probably very cheap to lease. It has no market outside of DL.
It's a dinosaur on its way out about to be replaced by the A220.
This fleet probably isn't that big a burden on DL.

In addition, I would be shocked if lease contracts didn't have some form of force majeure clause.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:49 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
Well I can see this coming true. It was announced by ALPA yesterday that DL is looking to permanently park the MD-88/90, 717, 777, and some of the 767 fleet. They need to shed about 3,000 pilot jobs. So assuming Boeing got wind of this, why not offer some new Max jets to be delivered at a later date and take the financial burden of parking the 717 fleet off of DL's hands? Seems like a win/win for everyone involved.


Parking the B77L? So what would fly ATL-JNB, LAX-Australia, or JFK-BOM? (I believe the A359 could do the latter two, even at 268t MTOW, JFK-BOM or LAX-SYD, but unless DL plans to wait for the higher MTOW A35K, nothing else can do ATL-JNB.) I can understand parking the B772, B763 (with P&W engines), and the 6-door B763s, but not the B77L.


You'll make certain people very unhappy by suggesting the A350 can make it to Australia! If DL did park the 77Ls then a higher MTOW variant should make it, maybe in the short term a slightly payload restricted A359.
 
Busyboy2
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:57 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:50 am

usflyer msp wrote:
How can DL trade in something they don't own? The 712 fleet is leased from Boeing.


you sure about that?
 
n7371f
Posts: 1852
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:44 am

DAL sniffing around the MAX has been out there for a year within the industry. Basically since the crashes. I.E. opportunistic buying.

Very loose talk that perhaps we're attempting to trade in the 717 to take the MAX-8 and in turn park/sell the 738.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This is not a source of anything.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:19 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
If there is some merit to this, it’s intriguing but there are a lot of other wildcard that need to be considered.

Airbus - has a huge backlog of orders in the near term that DL is likely going to want to defer as much as possible. The ~200 A220, A321CEO, A321NEO, A339, A359s all are going to be subject to a lot of negotiation. Airbus is going to want to preserve the order status, terms, and timing to the extent feasible while also trying to appease DL and try to keep Boeing out to the extent possible.

DALPA - how would the removal of the 717 fleet factor into near and long term scope clauses or relief? How does this impact the pending furlough, pilot pools, base realignments?

Ultimately does the timing and financial details make sense in the current environment where we can barely project 2-4 weeks out, let alone 2-4 years? What is the timing one needs to finalize this deal?
At what point does DL need to “$hit or get off the pot” on either keeping the 717s around and reinvest in t fleet or let them go? Since it’s with Boeing They can always Continue to use the 717s as leverage down the road even if it doesn’t make sense right now.


Participants within this thread are interpreting this rumor as DL trading the 717 one-for-one for MAX in the near future, when in practicality DL would likely be proposing turning the 717 in during the near term, and taking delivery of the MAX several years from now. DL indicated last fall that it had agreed to extend the 717 leases for another ~10 years, and they would begin cabin/cockpit upgrades shortly. They also indicated that in later years, the 717 would offer "flex" capacity (being utilized mostly during busier travel periods). Even before the pandemic, there were reports that DL was having cold feet about making that type of investment in the 717, and keeping the aircraft around that long, particularly as labor costs swelled.

During the mid-2000s to mid-2010s, DL and NW combined took delivery of roughly 50 new aircraft -- which is 2/3 of the number DL took last year alone. That, combined with the additions of late model aircraft, means that the crux of the 319, 320, 738 and 757 will be aging out by the end of the decade. The 321 CEO/NEO on order were suppose to be delivered by mid-decade; the reality is that another large (~100 frames) order for either the NEO/MAX for delivery the second half of the decade was always likely, anyway. That order was likely always Boeing's to lose, anyway, since it's probable DL would've desired to maintain strong relations with both manufacturers, and the MAX8 is a stronger option than the 320NEO.

I'm uncertain how much effort the ALPA would put into fighting DL, given that arbitrators would likely infer that the 220 meets the definition of a small narrowbody per scope (for those of us with fancy educations and real world experience; I realize some disagree, but that's why they're Starbucks baristas). It's not like the ALPA has much leverage, with DL on the brink of financial collapse and fighting for survival -- they have much more to lose should DL be forced into bankruptcy organization.

Alas, if the rumor were true, it's DL taking advantage of an opportunity to get rid of a fleet type it probably didn't want anyway and placing an order that would've been necessary, anyway. Boeing at the very least gets a much needed boost for its MAX program, even if it loses 10 years of lease payments on the 717 (it's unlikely many will be rehomed). DL owns 13 717 (it outright purchased the 10 aircraft it had been leasing directly from Southwest) and there's speculation it never signed lease renewals on the entire 717 fleet, so it's also possible that only a portion of the fleet will be removed (e.g. half, etc.) Credible pilot sources are indicating that they've been told that select 717 would be permanently withdrawn, so that would make a lot of sense.

Busyboy2 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
How can DL trade in something they don't own? The 712 fleet is leased from Boeing.


you sure about that?


Per its latest annual filing, DL owns 13 717. The other 73 are leased through Boeing Capital, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Boeing.

DL777200LR wrote:
The 77L is going nowhere anytime soon. I don't get why there are always constant posts saying that DL is going to retire 777 fleet soon.


Because sources that have been reliable in the past are indicating that DL's considering retiring some of the 777 fleet. Given your username, it's clear your opinion is bias. It's entirely possible that DL feels that it has surplus capacity in the ~300 passenger segment, and that rather than parking the 777, it could sell the 77L to a freight company, and when the time comes, take delivery of a 330 or 350 that is more efficient for its needs. There's been reports for quite awhile that DL had looked into selling its 77L, but there was no interest in the type, particularly as freight companies were parking aircraft. With long-haul passenger flights likely to be in heavy decline over the next several years, this may be the only opportunity DL has to dispose of the type if it really doesn't want them. I don't know either way -- I'm just illustrating why they would sell the type.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:14 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Unlikely rumor. Delta is not taking on debt now. Delta has mid-term contracts on the 717 for parts.

I do expect DL to order the MAX, but later and after brutal negotiations.

Lightsaber


I think DL is the one who put forward the idea. How would they take in debt from this?


The devil is in the details, which we do not know yet. But from historical perspectives . . .

The 717s themselves were leased to DL on such good terms that WN had to subsidize the lease rates. And

The Cseries / A220 was sold to DL at more than $10 million each (Canadian, I think) under its cost of manufacture.

And it may turn out that DL is looking at leasing 737MAXes. in which case there would be little if any upfront expense. Especially if a 717 trade is part of the deal.

These negotiations could be brutal indeed.
 
marcogr12
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:51 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Participants within this thread are interpreting this rumor as DL trading the 717 one-for-one for MAX in the near future, when in practicality DL would likely be proposing turning the 717 in during the near term, and taking delivery of the MAX several years from now. DL indicated last fall that it had agreed to extend the 717 leases for another ~10 years, and they would begin cabin/cockpit upgrades shortly. They also indicated that in later years, the 717 would offer "flex" capacity (being utilized mostly during busier travel periods). Even before the pandemic, there were reports that DL was having cold feet about making that type of investment in the 717, and keeping the aircraft around that long, particularly as labor costs swelled.

During the mid-2000s to mid-2010s, DL and NW combined took delivery of roughly 50 new aircraft -- which is 2/3 of the number DL took last year alone. That, combined with the additions of late model aircraft, means that the crux of the 319, 320, 738 and 757 will be aging out by the end of the decade. The 321 CEO/NEO on order were suppose to be delivered by mid-decade; the reality is that another large (~100 frames) order for either the NEO/MAX for delivery the second half of the decade was always likely, anyway. That order was likely always Boeing's to lose, anyway, since it's probable DL would've desired to maintain strong relations with both manufacturers, and the MAX8 is a stronger option than the 320NEO.

I'm uncertain how much effort the ALPA would put into fighting DL, given that arbitrators would likely infer that the 220 meets the definition of a small narrowbody per scope (for those of us with fancy educations and real world experience; I realize some disagree, but that's why they're Starbucks baristas). It's not like the ALPA has much leverage, with DL on the brink of financial collapse and fighting for survival -- they have much more to lose should DL be forced into bankruptcy organization.

Alas, if the rumor were true, it's DL taking advantage of an opportunity to get rid of a fleet type it probably didn't want anyway and placing an order that would've been necessary, anyway. Boeing at the very least gets a much needed boost for its MAX program, even if it loses 10 years of lease payments on the 717 (it's unlikely many will be rehomed). DL owns 13 717 (it outright purchased the 10 aircraft it had been leasing directly from Southwest) and there's speculation it never signed lease renewals on the entire 717 fleet, so it's also possible that only a portion of the fleet will be removed (e.g. half, etc.) Credible pilot sources are indicating that they've been told that select 717 would be permanently withdrawn, so that would make a lot of sense.

Busyboy2 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
How can DL trade in something they don't own? The 712 fleet is leased from Boeing.


you sure about that?


Per its latest annual filing, DL owns 13 717. The other 73 are leased through Boeing Capital, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Boeing.

DL777200LR wrote:
The 77L is going nowhere anytime soon. I don't get why there are always constant posts saying that DL is going to retire 777 fleet soon.


Because sources that have been reliable in the past are indicating that DL's considering retiring some of the 777 fleet. Given your username, it's clear your opinion is bias. It's entirely possible that DL feels that it has surplus capacity in the ~300 passenger segment, and that rather than parking the 777, it could sell the 77L to a freight company, and when the time comes, take delivery of a 330 or 350 that is more efficient for its needs. There's been reports for quite awhile that DL had looked into selling its 77L, but there was no interest in the type, particularly as freight companies were parking aircraft. With long-haul passenger flights likely to be in heavy decline over the next several years, this may be the only opportunity DL has to dispose of the type if it really doesn't want them. I don't know either way -- I'm just illustrating why they would sell the type.


I am confused..If DL never really wanted the 717s why didnt they opt for another narrowbody like the E190/195? And if this deal does go thru now, and they offload all 717s, the seat gap is big between the 717s and 737-8MAX, how will they replace it? They dont have enough A221s.. I suppose HA and QF are the only candidates that could pick some, since Volotea is looking to replace its own with A319..Could the 717s find home in Africa or S.America as cheap second-hand small/regional jets for thin/thinner routes? Asia has the similar ARJ-21 in case they are interested in sth. like that, although i have no idea if its economics are superior to the older 717
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:59 am

jagraham wrote:

And it may turn out that DL is looking at leasing 737MAXes. in which case there would be little if any upfront expense. Especially if a 717 trade is part of the deal.

These negotiations could be brutal indeed.


Leasing is simply a form of financing; even GAAP now requires leases obligations to be reported as debt. Aircraft are generally financed in some form... even aircraft that are paid for in full with cash, are usually either mortgaged or sold then leased back afterward. Just as if you were considering buying or purchasing a car, there's advantages and disadvantages to different forms of aircraft financing.

But DL owns only 13 B717, the other 78 are leased from Boeing. If DL "trades in" those 78 B717 to Boeing, it's certainly not to their advantage. Think about it this way... if you still owed $2500 in lease payments on your car, and your contract specified a purchase option that is at or greater than the car's market value (which is typical of operating leases), would it be to your advantage to trade your leased car in? Of course not -- you will still owe that $2500, whether you keep the car or give it back to the finance company.

In DL's case, it's deceptive to say they're looking at trading in the 717 for MAX. If the rumor's true, then what they're really doing is seeking financial relief from Boeing (e.g. void the lease extension signed last fall) in exchange for agreeing to purchase the MAX.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:13 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I am confused..If DL never really wanted the 717s why didnt they opt for another narrowbody like the E190/195? And if this deal does go thru now, and they offload all 717s, the seat gap is big between the 717s and 737-8MAX, how will they replace it? They dont have enough A221s.. I suppose HA and QF are the only candidates that could pick some, since Volotea is looking to replace its own with A319..Could the 717s find home in Africa or S.America as cheap second-hand small/regional jets for thin/thinner routes? Asia has the similar ARJ-21 in case they are interested in sth. like that, although i have no idea if its economics are superior to the older 717


DL wasn't interested in adding the 717 unless WN agreed to a heavy subsidy. You're asserting that they had a need for a 717-sized aircraft and would've had to have chosen an alternate type when I disagree that was the case. Prior to adding the 717, DL hadn't operated a mainline aircraft that size in nearly 20 years, sans brief stints in which Express was disbanded and the 73S returned to mainline, as well as the short period the ex-NW DC-9-30 operated (and DL accelerated retirement of that type). UA and WN do not operate an aircraft of that size, and AA only has a few ex-US E90 that they've been seeking to get rid of for awhile (and US intended on operating more of the type, but faced challenges with their profitability). Had DL not went with the 717, it's possible they would've continued to fight the scope clause (which lead to the 717's addition to begin with), or picked used E90, as they later did (but sold the aircraft after the ALPA refused to give them additional scope relief + the CS order).

If DL does indeed phase out the 717, it's probable nothing will directly replace them, other than the 220 deliveries. As I mentioned earlier, there have been strong rumors for quite awhile that swelling labor costs have made the economics of the 717 challenging for DL, and they've been looking to dump or reduce the fleet. This crisis might have finally given them a reason, without stepping on the toes of the DALPA too much.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1990
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:21 am

I'm surprised nobody has thought that the 737 MAX has no timeline for EIS, and with the outbreak now it could be a very long time until production goes back to what it was, so what kind of sense does it make to order 100 of them? Not to mention what has already been discussed about ordering 100 new aircraft in the middle of the worst crisis in aviation history
A350/CSeries = bae
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 15

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos