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rbavfan
Posts: 3621
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:57 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
zkojq wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Really, you want to go there?

People got back on DC-10s after AA's maintenance failures killed 273 people on AA 191 in 1979.

People got back on MD-8Xs after Alaska's maintenance failures killed 88 people on AS 261 in 2000.

People got back on Bombardier Q400s after repeated landing gear collapses.

People got back on A330s after AF 447 killed 228 passengers and crew.

People got back on DC-10s operated by U.S. carriers for more than a decade after UA 232 in Sioux City.

The guys who argue that MAX crashes will make material numbers of passengers avoid the type are ignorant of flight incident histories or willfully misrepresent them.


None of those were caused by reckless negligence on the part of the OEM. None of those involved company emails being released admitting that OEM employees wouldn't let their families fly on one and that OEM employees thought that the plane was designed by morons overseen my monkeys or whatever the exact phrase was. None of those crashes happened in the social media age. None of those involved a 1.5 year grounding.

kimimm19 wrote:

seconded.


Disagree. The NG is one of the greatest airplanes ever to fly. Shane that the shitty MAX had tarnished the 737's reputation.

AirwayBill wrote:
Corona pandemic isn’t the magical cure to the MAX abysmal reputation, the worst ever gained by a commercial airliner: the game has been basically put on pause, no more, no less.

:checkmark:

JoseSalazar wrote:
Cant tell if this is a serious post or a joke. But I think the tariffs already take care of that. And what about mobile produced airbuses?


Tariffs don't affect Mobile built A321s (nor CSeries). The person you're replying to is the one who wrote to their congressperson to try and stop Delta buying A330neos and A350s. :lol:

N776AU wrote:
I’ve always been very passionate about being alive.


Me too actually.

n7371f wrote:
Delta is essentially asking Boeing to forgo cash flow when it needs it the most - for an order down the road. And ask yourself, who in the world right now would take the 717's? Not sure Boeing is in a position to bend over for Delta.


Very good point. If the leases are as expensive as people seem to suggest they are then that's a great profit centre for Boeing Capital. In a time when they're nodoubt suffering from plenty of leases being in arrears, ending the 717s would not be good for the bottom line.

Of course the whole point of Boeing Capital leasing out older frames is to be able to do exactly the type of deal as suggested here.


Uh no, the DC-10 had multiple flaws and had more accidents than the 73M. And email wasn't around during the DC-10 development. You have no idea what went on.



He also forgot the Turkish DC-10 crash that "Was" negligence. They new for a long time about the cargo doors blowing off and ignored it. Till 300+ people died from it. And the government had docs that they admitted to falsifying. So yes MD was negligent.
 
kevin5345179
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:20 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:
he just updated it on twitter:

I approached Delta on Apr. 14 to seek comment (citing multiple sources) on its proposed transaction involving 717s & 737 Max. They declined comment.

Article ran Apr. 21.

Apr. 23: Delta says, “we’re not currently in any such negotiations.”

We stand by every word in this report.

Would you really expect DL to respond either way with anything different?
Of course they are not going to respond either way to alledged rumors of potential deals.
They cannot legally respond in way that gives any sort of indication of something that is of material impact.

Don't read much into this either way. People in a position of authority aren't going to go on the record to acknowledge such confidential matters.

Its plausible conversations were had, but this thing could go any various direction from nothing every happening or to some deal that is very different than as proposed.


it depends .... We've seen CEOs using press as part of negotiation
 
IWMBH
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:38 am

rbavfan wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
zkojq wrote:

None of those were caused by reckless negligence on the part of the OEM. None of those involved company emails being released admitting that OEM employees wouldn't let their families fly on one and that OEM employees thought that the plane was designed by morons overseen my monkeys or whatever the exact phrase was. None of those crashes happened in the social media age. None of those involved a 1.5 year grounding.



Disagree. The NG is one of the greatest airplanes ever to fly. Shane that the shitty MAX had tarnished the 737's reputation.


:checkmark:



Tariffs don't affect Mobile built A321s (nor CSeries). The person you're replying to is the one who wrote to their congressperson to try and stop Delta buying A330neos and A350s. :lol:



Me too actually.



Very good point. If the leases are as expensive as people seem to suggest they are then that's a great profit centre for Boeing Capital. In a time when they're nodoubt suffering from plenty of leases being in arrears, ending the 717s would not be good for the bottom line.

Of course the whole point of Boeing Capital leasing out older frames is to be able to do exactly the type of deal as suggested here.


Uh no, the DC-10 had multiple flaws and had more accidents than the 73M. And email wasn't around during the DC-10 development. You have no idea what went on.



He also forgot the Turkish DC-10 crash that "Was" negligence. They new for a long time about the cargo doors blowing off and ignored it. Till 300+ people died from it. And the government had docs that they admitted to falsifying. So yes MD was negligent.



I agree that most passenger can't tell a difference between the 737NG and the MAX, or even between the MAX and the A320. So, they'll be more than happy to step on the plane to their business meeting or holiday destination.

But, the DC-10 is not a good example. I'd argue that the DC-10 never really recovered from its troubled past and that it was the beginning of the end for McD.
I hope for Boeing that the MAX's return to service is less troublesome.
 
micstatic
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:37 am

Jetport wrote:
micstatic wrote:
the less 737's of any kind the better. That's my vote


Why only less 737's? if I was King, I would ban single aisle 6 across aircraft, the worst layout currently flying for passengers, and unfortunately they are growing market share. Can you imagine being on a packed A321XLR for 9 hours, pure torture! Other than the IFE on the A321, I greatly preferred flying on Delta's MD88/90's to the new A321's which Delta bought with slightly too small overhead bins (still can't figure out how that happened, another Delta great deal?).

I really hope Delta keeps the 717's, they are far better for passengers than any single aisle 6 across aircraft.


I fly 100,000 miles a year or so but typically almost all US domestic. So I really can't envision any scenario where I would be on any plane for 9 hours. If I was, odds are it's a widebody. I like the 717's and MD 80/90 also. My comment basically meant I really hope any future orders are A220 or A320 series. anything but the 737 series. I absolutely notice how narrow a 737 is compared to the A320. it matters to me
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WN732
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:23 pm

rbavfan wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
zkojq wrote:

None of those were caused by reckless negligence on the part of the OEM. None of those involved company emails being released admitting that OEM employees wouldn't let their families fly on one and that OEM employees thought that the plane was designed by morons overseen my monkeys or whatever the exact phrase was. None of those crashes happened in the social media age. None of those involved a 1.5 year grounding.



Disagree. The NG is one of the greatest airplanes ever to fly. Shane that the shitty MAX had tarnished the 737's reputation.


:checkmark:



Tariffs don't affect Mobile built A321s (nor CSeries). The person you're replying to is the one who wrote to their congressperson to try and stop Delta buying A330neos and A350s. :lol:



Me too actually.



Very good point. If the leases are as expensive as people seem to suggest they are then that's a great profit centre for Boeing Capital. In a time when they're nodoubt suffering from plenty of leases being in arrears, ending the 717s would not be good for the bottom line.

Of course the whole point of Boeing Capital leasing out older frames is to be able to do exactly the type of deal as suggested here.


Uh no, the DC-10 had multiple flaws and had more accidents than the 73M. And email wasn't around during the DC-10 development. You have no idea what went on.



He also forgot the Turkish DC-10 crash that "Was" negligence. They new for a long time about the cargo doors blowing off and ignored it. Till 300+ people died from it. And the government had docs that they admitted to falsifying. So yes MD was negligent.


And don't forget about the AA DC-10 that also had its cargo door blow out. The DC-10 had issues, and so did its successor. The MD-11 was also plagued with various issues in it's smaller tenure.

The COVID 19 situation has made the media all but forget about the MAX.
 
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par13del
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:33 pm

IWMBH wrote:
But, the DC-10 is not a good example. I'd argue that the DC-10 never really recovered from its troubled past and that it was the beginning of the end for McD.
I hope for Boeing that the MAX's return to service is less troublesome.

The DC-10 saving grace was the fact that RR could not get their engine sorted out for the L1011, so despite its difficulties, enough of them were deployed. The MD11 failure to meet targets is what finally killed the line and company off.
 
xdlx
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:42 pm

Folks clam down.... while reviewing the books and finding the greatest liability to the "financial" aspects of fleet adjustment, the IDEA of the 717 going away surfaced. What would Boeing accept in return for them to take back the leased airplanes? 100; 737 was the answer; well the NG is no longer in production so obviously we were talking about 100 737MAX "assumption". COULD THIS HAPPEN? Perhaps? Too early to tell, IMHO
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:18 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
zkojq wrote:
None of those were caused by reckless negligence on the part of the OEM. None of those involved company emails being released admitting that OEM employees wouldn't let their families fly on one and that OEM employees thought that the plane was designed by morons overseen my monkeys or whatever the exact phrase was. None of those crashes happened in the social media age. None of those involved a 1.5 year grounding.

Uh no, the DC-10 had multiple flaws and had more accidents than the 73M. And email wasn't around during the DC-10 development. You have no idea what went on.

Yep. For instance:

In the following investigation, it was found that a similar set of conditions, which had caused the failure of an aircraft floor following explosive decompression of the cargo hold, had occurred in ground testing in 1970 before the DC-10 series entered commercial service. The smoking gun was a memo from the fuselage's manufacturer, Convair, to McDonnell Douglas, in which the series of events that occurred on Flight 96, and fatally on Flight 981, was foreseen; it concluded that if these events occurred it would probably result in the loss of the aircraft. In spite of this warning, nothing was done to correct the flaw. One of the eventual consequences was the largest civil lawsuits to that date.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_A ... Flight_981

So in this regard the DC-10 was worse: their subcontractor identified a flaw that would probably result in the loss of the aircraft, yet Douglas did not act. That one crash killed almost as many as the two MCAS crashes. It's unmistakable negligence, and so far FBI/DOJ/etc has yet to find that to be the case for the MAX tragedy.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:21 pm

xdlx wrote:
Folks clam down.... while reviewing the books and finding the greatest liability to the "financial" aspects of fleet adjustment, the IDEA of the 717 going away surfaced. What would Boeing accept in return for them to take back the leased airplanes? 100; 737 was the answer; well the NG is no longer in production so obviously we were talking about 100 737MAX "assumption". COULD THIS HAPPEN? Perhaps? Too early to tell, IMHO

DL's response that no such negotiation is currently happening suggests DL didn't offer to take enough MAXes or that Boeing prefers to keep the cash flow from the leases.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Delta probably did not offer to take any 737 MAX aircraft. There is always fource majour with the 717s. My spelling is wrong over the 717s. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Lootess
Posts: 463
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:49 pm

Backchannels. Meetings, let alone phone calls do not equal negotiations. We've been through this before with the A321NEO.

Revelation wrote:
par13del wrote:
Boeing also had to exercise its option to get DL to take the 737-9, so I think the ducks will have to be lined up first before a deal is made, Boeing is in just as much need of cash as DL.

In this situation Boeing is getting cash from DL for the lease payments and it is DL that is looking to trade 717s for MAXes...

Also, DL signed the contract that gave Boeing the option to require DL to buy more 737-900s. They did it because they knew they were getting a good deal even if Boeing required them to buy more. I don't know why anyone makes a big deal out of it. If it was a bad deal, DL wouldn't have signed it. Same as for whatever MAX deal they end up making.


Yep, and they ultimately needed those. Heck they got a 739 delivered the same day they accepted their first ever A321 in Hamburg.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:53 pm

Lootess wrote:
Backchannels. Meetings, let alone phone calls do not equal negotiations. We've been through this before with the A321NEO.

Yep, and they ultimately needed those. Heck they got a 739 delivered the same day they accepted their first ever A321 in Hamburg.


How so? I mean they have more or less the same capacity..So if they were going to order the A321 why did they take the 739ER or the other way round?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
ewt340
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:59 pm

Antaras wrote:
Delta wants the MAX?
Ooops am I sitting on the wrong planet?


No, they want $250,000 MAXes. Not just a MAX.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:48 am

marcogr12 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Yep, and they ultimately needed those. Heck they got a 739 delivered the same day they accepted their first ever A321 in Hamburg.

How so? I mean they have more or less the same capacity..So if they were going to order the A321 why did they take the 739ER or the other way round?

They're big enough to have both, and DL likes to play the vendors off against each other. It'd be no surprise to me if they end up with a similar number of MAX vs NEO. AA did so in its buying plan, as did UA.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:04 am

Revelation wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Folks clam down.... while reviewing the books and finding the greatest liability to the "financial" aspects of fleet adjustment, the IDEA of the 717 going away surfaced. What would Boeing accept in return for them to take back the leased airplanes? 100; 737 was the answer; well the NG is no longer in production so obviously we were talking about 100 737MAX "assumption". COULD THIS HAPPEN? Perhaps? Too early to tell, IMHO

DL's response that no such negotiation is currently happening suggests DL didn't offer to take enough MAXes or that Boeing prefers to keep the cash flow from the leases.

Or Ed Bastian and the powers that be in Atlanta are keeping their cards close to the vest and they're not going to negotiate (presuming there are, in fact, negotiations in progress) through the media. That said, I could eventually see DL look into the 737-8 as a partial replacement for any remaining 717s, depending on the direction DL takes post-COVID19.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:08 am

Revelation wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Yep, and they ultimately needed those. Heck they got a 739 delivered the same day they accepted their first ever A321 in Hamburg.

How so? I mean they have more or less the same capacity..So if they were going to order the A321 why did they take the 739ER or the other way round?

They're big enough to have both, and DL likes to play the vendors off against each other. It'd be no surprise to me if they end up with a similar number of MAX vs NEO. AA did so in its buying plan, as did UA.

I'll expand further. But at the core of the discussion is DL can and will play vendors off against each other.
Do not forget Delta's excellent Tech Ops that provides MRO service, in particular engines, for other airliners. Delta often posts a condition of a purchase on engine service rights (as well as other overhaul rights).

Delta's current fleet (on paper):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

https://www.deltatechops.com/services/e ... intenance/
DL Techops wins rights to overhaul engines as part of service contacts. Sometimes engines DL doesn't even fly (T1000 for ordering A330-900 and A350-900).

CFM International
CFM56-5B (A320 engine that DL operates a bunch)
CFM56-7B (737 engine that DL operates a bunch)
GE Aviation
CF34-3 (CRJ engine)
CF34-8 (CRJ-900 engine)
CF6-80A (old 767/747)
CF6-80C2(newer 767/747)
Pratt & Whitney
PW2000 (757 engine, DL has a bunch)
PW4000-94 (767, older DL 767s)
PW1100 GTF (upcoming A321NEO)
PW1500 GTF (A220)
Rolls-Royce
BR715 (717 engine)
Trent XWB (A350 engine)
Trent 1000 (This is interesting, DL doesn't even operate the 787)
Trent 7000 (A330NEO engine)

So what I see missing from the above is a LEAP engine overhaul and GEnX (787) engine overhaul.

However, since the BR715 engine shop is new, I'm not thinking DL is eager to remove the fleet type. However, if CFM is offering both LEAP-1A and -1B overhaul rights... it is plausible. I just do not think likely at this time.

I do think a MAX order is likely at DL. The timing is just odd.

Late edit:
DL also offers pilot training, crew training, and other services at a profit. My math says that DL needs 17+ aircraft in house to setup the operations. But 50+ is always better for economy of scale. Because DL makes so much money servicing aircraft for others, they can operate a varied fleet.

Now obviously the 717 services are really just for DL as the dominant operator.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:39 am

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
How so? I mean they have more or less the same capacity..So if they were going to order the A321 why did they take the 739ER or the other way round?

They're big enough to have both, and DL likes to play the vendors off against each other. It'd be no surprise to me if they end up with a similar number of MAX vs NEO. AA did so in its buying plan, as did UA.

I'll expand further. But at the core of the discussion is DL can and will play vendors off against each other.
Do not forget Delta's excellent Tech Ops that provides MRO service, in particular engines, for other airliners. Delta often posts a condition of a purchase on engine service rights (as well as other overhaul rights).

Delta's current fleet (on paper):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

https://www.deltatechops.com/services/e ... intenance/
DL Techops wins rights to overhaul engines as part of service contacts. Sometimes engines DL doesn't even fly (T1000 for ordering A330-900 and A350-900).

CFM International
CFM56-5B (A320 engine that DL operates a bunch)
CFM56-7B (737 engine that DL operates a bunch)
GE Aviation
CF34-3 (CRJ engine)
CF34-8 (CRJ-900 engine)
CF6-80A (old 767/747)
CF6-80C2(newer 767/747)
Pratt & Whitney
PW2000 (757 engine, DL has a bunch)
PW4000-94 (767, older DL 767s)
PW1100 GTF (upcoming A321NEO)
PW1500 GTF (A220)
Rolls-Royce
BR715 (717 engine)
Trent XWB (A350 engine)
Trent 1000 (This is interesting, DL doesn't even operate the 787)
Trent 7000 (A330NEO engine)

So what I see missing from the above is a LEAP engine overhaul and GEnX (787) engine overhaul.

However, since the BR715 engine shop is new, I'm not thinking DL is eager to remove the fleet type. However, if CFM is offering both LEAP-1A and -1B overhaul rights... it is plausible. I just do not think likely at this time.

I do think a MAX order is likely at DL. The timing is just odd.

Late edit:
DL also offers pilot training, crew training, and other services at a profit. My math says that DL needs 17+ aircraft in house to setup the operations. But 50+ is always better for economy of scale. Because DL makes so much money servicing aircraft for others, they can operate a varied fleet.

Now obviously the 717 services are really just for DL as the dominant operator.

Lightsaber


For engines, the engine shop would still have some business from the Business jet market, the BR715 is used on the Gulfstream V and the Bombardier Global Express, both of which have more produced then the 717. Then again, I don't know much about DL's TechOps or if they do work on Business Jets.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:13 am

When this ends up not being true and based on nothing can we delete this thread lol. Pretend it en we happened
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:02 pm

I doubt this happens, but would DL want the MAX 8 or 9 if it did? Perhaps they could replace some existing 738's and A320's as well?
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:38 pm

"So what I see missing from the above is a LEAP engine overhaul and GEnX (787) engine overhaul.

However, since the BR715 engine shop is new, I'm not thinking DL is eager to remove the fleet type. However, if CFM is offering both LEAP-1A and -1B overhaul rights... it is plausible. I just do not think likely at this time."

I doubt we will see the LEAP or The GenX in a TechOps shop. GE is not giving very good deals on the engine work. They only want MRO's to do parts replacement. The real money is in the repair of the parts you take off the engines. PW and RR gave us that side of the work along with the disassembly/assembly. Another factor is concrete. As in concrete floors. Delta TechOps doesn't have enough to do the work we have already committed to. The new PW shop for the GTF is currently slated to move across the street to part of the Delta Cargo building nest to the current thrust reverser shop. That build was slated for demo for terminal expansion but that plan was pulled back a couple of years ago. Right now all construction for that shop is on hold to conserve cash.

"For engines, the engine shop would still have some business from the Business jet market, the BR715 is used on the Gulfstream V and the Bombardier Global Express, both of which have more produced then the 717. Then again, I don't know much about DL's TechOps or if they do work on Business Jets."

The rumor about the BR shop is, it likely came in to the TechOps building has a way to get a foot in with Rolls Royce. We'll take the BR work if you give us the Trent work. I don't think it makes much money for TechOps. Yes we do inhouse engines, but the mantra is bring in outside work. There just isn't that much of it for the BR. I would bet they would drop it in a second to move those resources to other more profitable line.

Yes the BR700 series is on biz jets. We don't work those types. While they are related, likely they have a completely different expensive Tooling set for disassembly and assembly. It is also another certificate to acquire.
 
Lootess
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:25 pm

Many of the 738s are getting into the 20+ year old range, so ideally MAX 8 would make sense, if this is true. But A320s will end up retired first, and that whole fleet is parked right now. For almost obvious reasons.

Delta does like having the engine overhaul shop rights tied into new plane type purchases, that's a material fact. When was the last time Delta and GE were actually in lockstep together? The post-merger GE AF6-powered A330 order?
 
asr0dzjq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:50 am

N776AU wrote:
I was really hoping flying Delta would become much easier since I soon wouldn’t have to avoid the MD-88. Don’t tell me I will have another aircraft to stay away from. I’ve always been very passionate about being alive.

Once the 737 Max returns to service, it will no longer be an airplane you should stay away from.
Chill out.
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Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
744SPX
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:22 am

asr0dzjq wrote:
N776AU wrote:
I was really hoping flying Delta would become much easier since I soon wouldn’t have to avoid the MD-88. Don’t tell me I will have another aircraft to stay away from. I’ve always been very passionate about being alive.

Once the 737 Max returns to service, it will no longer be an airplane you should stay away from.
Chill out.


Oh really?
The media (thankfully) will not let people forget that the MAX killed nearly 350 people. The MAX is an aircraft built for shareholders. Period.
Yes, we should stay away from it.
 
Vctony
Posts: 667
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:26 am

744SPX wrote:
asr0dzjq wrote:
N776AU wrote:
I was really hoping flying Delta would become much easier since I soon wouldn’t have to avoid the MD-88. Don’t tell me I will have another aircraft to stay away from. I’ve always been very passionate about being alive.

Once the 737 Max returns to service, it will no longer be an airplane you should stay away from.
Chill out.


Oh really?
The media (thankfully) will not let people forget that the MAX killed nearly 350 people. The MAX is an aircraft built for shareholders. Period.
Yes, we should stay away from it.


When it returns to service it will be the safest aircraft in the sky. The level of safety checks that it will go through to reactivate certification will be unmatched for any other commercial airliner.
 
asr0dzjq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:02 am

744SPX wrote:
asr0dzjq wrote:
N776AU wrote:
I was really hoping flying Delta would become much easier since I soon wouldn’t have to avoid the MD-88. Don’t tell me I will have another aircraft to stay away from. I’ve always been very passionate about being alive.

Once the 737 Max returns to service, it will no longer be an airplane you should stay away from.
Chill out.


Oh really?
The media (thankfully) will not let people forget that the MAX killed nearly 350 people. The MAX is an aircraft built for shareholders. Period.
Yes, we should stay away from it.

As mentioned in a previous comment, people got back on:

- DC-10's even after American Airlines' maintenance failures killed 273 people on Flight AAL191 in 1979 and for more than a decade after UAL232.
- MD-80's even after Alaska's maintenance failures killed 88 people on ASA261 in 2000.
- Q400's even after repeated landing gear collapses.
- A330's even after AFR447 killed 228 passengers and crew.
- MD-11's even after Swissair Flight 111 crashed in 1998.
- 737's even after two of them crashed due to jammed rudders. That was a design flaw
- First generation 747's even after El Al Flight 1862 had its two right engines fall off. Also a design deficiency on Boeing's part.

People who argue that 737 Max crashes will make material numbers of passengers avoid the type, people who say they will never fly on a 737 Max, or people who think that it's a good idea for Boeing to just "scrap the Max" do not know about, deliberately ignore, or (especially in the case of the media nowadays) willfully misrepresent flight incident histories.
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n7371f
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:30 am

Get a grip on reality. If you really believe what you wrote, then you know nothing about aviation.

744SPX wrote:
asr0dzjq wrote:
N776AU wrote:
I was really hoping flying Delta would become much easier since I soon wouldn’t have to avoid the MD-88. Don’t tell me I will have another aircraft to stay away from. I’ve always been very passionate about being alive.

Once the 737 Max returns to service, it will no longer be an airplane you should stay away from.
Chill out.


Oh really?
The media (thankfully) will not let people forget that the MAX killed nearly 350 people. The MAX is an aircraft built for shareholders. Period.
Yes, we should stay away from it.
 
n7371f
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:32 am

Folks. No company, DAL included, is going to comment to the media about potential negotiations involving scenarios like the 717 for MAX deal.

ctrabs0114 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Folks clam down.... while reviewing the books and finding the greatest liability to the "financial" aspects of fleet adjustment, the IDEA of the 717 going away surfaced. What would Boeing accept in return for them to take back the leased airplanes? 100; 737 was the answer; well the NG is no longer in production so obviously we were talking about 100 737MAX "assumption". COULD THIS HAPPEN? Perhaps? Too early to tell, IMHO

DL's response that no such negotiation is currently happening suggests DL didn't offer to take enough MAXes or that Boeing prefers to keep the cash flow from the leases.

Or Ed Bastian and the powers that be in Atlanta are keeping their cards close to the vest and they're not going to negotiate (presuming there are, in fact, negotiations in progress) through the media. That said, I could eventually see DL look into the 737-8 as a partial replacement for any remaining 717s, depending on the direction DL takes post-COVID19.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:07 am

This thread's getting silly. More than two-thirds of the 717 fleet is coming off lease within the next four years. It appears there's no binding agreement in place to renew these aircraft, so nothing would restrict DL from returning them to Boeing -- and it'll probably take DL four years, anyway, to transition away from the type. If the rumor is true, we're talking about a handful of aircraft -- and most are outright owned by DL. It'd be a smart deal by both parties.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:25 pm

asr0dzjq wrote:
744SPX wrote:
asr0dzjq wrote:
Once the 737 Max returns to service, it will no longer be an airplane you should stay away from.
Chill out.


Oh really?
The media (thankfully) will not let people forget that the MAX killed nearly 350 people. The MAX is an aircraft built for shareholders. Period.
Yes, we should stay away from it.

As mentioned in a previous comment, people got back on:

- DC-10's even after American Airlines' maintenance failures killed 273 people on Flight AAL191 in 1979 and for more than a decade after UAL232.
- MD-80's even after Alaska's maintenance failures killed 88 people on ASA261 in 2000.
- Q400's even after repeated landing gear collapses.
- A330's even after AFR447 killed 228 passengers and crew.
- MD-11's even after Swissair Flight 111 crashed in 1998.
- 737's even after two of them crashed due to jammed rudders. That was a design flaw
- First generation 747's even after El Al Flight 1862 had its two right engines fall off. Also a design deficiency on Boeing's part.

People who argue that 737 Max crashes will make material numbers of passengers avoid the type, people who say they will never fly on a 737 Max, or people who think that it's a good idea for Boeing to just "scrap the Max" do not know about, deliberately ignore, or (especially in the case of the media nowadays) willfully misrepresent flight incident histories.

Well, to be fair:
- AAL191 was due to AA maintenance practice, not the aircraft design;
- ASA261 was due to AS maintenance practice, not the aircraft design;
- AFR447 was due to the pilots action, not the aircraft design;
- SWR111 was due to the IFE System and Aircraft Certification Standards, the aircraft design just followed the Standards in place at the time.
You can argue the DC-10s and MD-11s were flawed, but the examples you used were not the best to prove your point.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:46 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Well, to be fair:
- AAL191 was due to AA maintenance practice, not the aircraft design;
- ASA261 was due to AS maintenance practice, not the aircraft design;
- AFR447 was due to the pilots action, not the aircraft design;
- SWR111 was due to the IFE System and Aircraft Certification Standards, the aircraft design just followed the Standards in place at the time.
You can argue the DC-10s and MD-11s were flawed, but the examples you used were not the best to prove your point.

Reminds me of Boeing's CEO saying the MCAS tragedy was due to one engineer relying too much on the "3 second rule" rather than the dozens of engineers involved in doing the safety classification, the test plan, the coding of the logic that relied on one sensor with no range checks, etc.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:06 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
They're big enough to have both, and DL likes to play the vendors off against each other. It'd be no surprise to me if they end up with a similar number of MAX vs NEO. AA did so in its buying plan, as did UA.

I'll expand further. But at the core of the discussion is DL can and will play vendors off against each other.
Do not forget Delta's excellent Tech Ops that provides MRO service, in particular engines, for other airliners. Delta often posts a condition of a purchase on engine service rights (as well as other overhaul rights).

Delta's current fleet (on paper):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

https://www.deltatechops.com/services/e ... intenance/
DL Techops wins rights to overhaul engines as part of service contacts. Sometimes engines DL doesn't even fly (T1000 for ordering A330-900 and A350-900).

CFM International
CFM56-5B (A320 engine that DL operates a bunch)
CFM56-7B (737 engine that DL operates a bunch)
GE Aviation
CF34-3 (CRJ engine)
CF34-8 (CRJ-900 engine)
CF6-80A (old 767/747)
CF6-80C2(newer 767/747)
Pratt & Whitney
PW2000 (757 engine, DL has a bunch)
PW4000-94 (767, older DL 767s)
PW1100 GTF (upcoming A321NEO)
PW1500 GTF (A220)
Rolls-Royce
BR715 (717 engine)
Trent XWB (A350 engine)
Trent 1000 (This is interesting, DL doesn't even operate the 787)
Trent 7000 (A330NEO engine)

So what I see missing from the above is a LEAP engine overhaul and GEnX (787) engine overhaul.

However, since the BR715 engine shop is new, I'm not thinking DL is eager to remove the fleet type. However, if CFM is offering both LEAP-1A and -1B overhaul rights... it is plausible. I just do not think likely at this time.

I do think a MAX order is likely at DL. The timing is just odd.

Late edit:
DL also offers pilot training, crew training, and other services at a profit. My math says that DL needs 17+ aircraft in house to setup the operations. But 50+ is always better for economy of scale. Because DL makes so much money servicing aircraft for others, they can operate a varied fleet.

Now obviously the 717 services are really just for DL as the dominant operator.

Lightsaber


For engines, the engine shop would still have some business from the Business jet market, the BR715 is used on the Gulfstream V and the Bombardier Global Express, both of which have more produced then the 717. Then again, I don't know much about DL's TechOps or if they do work on Business Jets.

It all comes back to being licensed for LEAP engines. That will be the sticky negotiating point.

I too was surprised the BR710 (Gulfstream V abd Bombardier Global) as well as BR725 (G650) were not part of the deal. The engines are not that different, even if new disassembly and alignment tools are required. DL should get into PW816 and eventually PW812 overhaul, but I doubt Pratt wants to forfeit the revenue.

I should have noted V2500A5&D5 overhaul is missing too. However, there is too much V2500 overhaul available IMHO.

Lightsaber
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:55 am

[quote="WidebodyPTV"]Southwest leased 88 B717 to DL: 78 that were leased via Boeing Capital were subleased, and 10 that were owned were leased direct.

Per WN's 2019 10K filing:
- three leases expired in 2018, and eight more in 2019.
- DL outright purchased the 10 B717 that had were owned by WN.
- as of 12-31-19, 67 leases were still active, with maturities ranging from one month to five years.
- DL is paying WN $78M in 2020, $41M in 2021, $17M in 2022, $7M in 2023 and $1M in 2024.

Per DL's 2019 10K filing, the aircraft that came off lease from WN and were subsequently re-leased directly through Boeing Capital are classified as finance leases.

Thus, it doesn't look like DL executed a new leasing agreement for the B717, but rather is signing a new (finance) leasing agreement with Boeing as the WN leases mature. So, it would make sense that should DL wish to dispose of these aircraft, that they'd have to negotiate a MAX order. I believe there's credence to this rumor -- DL's looking to dump the 717 now in exchange for agreeing to buy the MAX later -- but the phase out would likely take a few years.

---------------------------My Post Below--------------------

If Delta would keep the leased 717s until the leases expire Delta would be spending about 149 million dollars to use these aircraft. How many suitable aircraft would 149 million dollars buy? If Delta tried to renegotiate the leases would Delta get anything by doing that. Probably not as the 717s have little if any value beyond scrap value. Delta might as well keep flying them and return them as the leases expire or then continue leasing them on a monthly basis or "power by the hour until the dust settles and Delta has new aircraft being delivered. Both the MD-90 and 717 have a federal mandate that the passenger seats need replacement due the seat trays and seat backs being hazardous if the passengers are required to bend over in a brace position on landing a crippled aircraft. The MD-90s will most likely go away. There may be a slight chance that the seats from a MD-88 could be used to replace them in the 717. Who would pick up the expense of replacing these "defective seats" whether used or a new buy , Delta or the lessor? If the lessor had to pick up the cost then Delta could possibly back out of the current leases and renegotiate the leases on terms more suitable to Delta or possibility return them without penalty. I do not have any idea if there is any escape clause that would benefit Delta. But someone is going to need to pay for this problem. The only airline that might have any interest in them might be Hawaiian which might pick up a half dozen as spares if the price was right.
Quit frankly Delta might as well try to renegotiate the terms of the leases as NO ONE else wants them. Both Boeing and Southwest should know that. Delta has the ability to maintain them without doing any real outsourcing. Delta can just keep flying them until their time is up and fly them to the desert just like Northwest did with their DC-9s. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Boof02671
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:26 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta probably did not offer to take any 737 MAX aircraft. There is always fource majour with the 717s. My spelling is wrong over the 717s. :old:

There is no force majuere in business contracts. They can break the lease and sued or file bankruptcy and void the lease
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta probably did not offer to take any 737 MAX aircraft. There is always fource majour with the 717s. My spelling is wrong over the 717s. :old:

There is no force majuere in business contracts. They can break the lease and sued or file bankruptcy and void the lease

What are you talking about? Every single B2B Purchase Order I've seen (which is a contract) includes a Force Majeure clause; that's how companies get out of paying Late Fees or prevent the Customer from cancelling the Order.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta probably did not offer to take any 737 MAX aircraft. There is always fource majour with the 717s. My spelling is wrong over the 717s. :old:

There is no force majuere in business contracts. They can break the lease and sued or file bankruptcy and void the lease

You are correct. But lets see how this passenger seat problem goes which the FAA took way too long to discover and how that may affect any leases. Have NO idea if there is any language the could in the leases that could affect them. Personally I do NOT think Delta has any thoughts for trading in any 717s on 737 MAX aircraft. They have no equity in them except for the handful they own. Delta IMO has NO interest in purchasing ANY 737 MAX aircraft. Delta has more important things to take care of than buying a warmed over 1960s 737 that should NEVER been built. Boeing may wind up owning a great number of the 737 MAX aircraft that were never delivered. They may need to sell them a fire sale prices after they are certified and had the MCAS taken care of along with several other items such as metal shaving in the wiring and other items not yet known to the public. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Folks clam down.... while reviewing the books and finding the greatest liability to the "financial" aspects of fleet adjustment, the IDEA of the 717 going away surfaced. What would Boeing accept in return for them to take back the leased airplanes? 100; 737 was the answer; well the NG is no longer in production so obviously we were talking about 100 737MAX "assumption". COULD THIS HAPPEN? Perhaps? Too early to tell, IMHO

DL's response that no such negotiation is currently happening suggests DL didn't offer to take enough MAXes or that Boeing prefers to keep the cash flow from the leases.


No because some bored employee or fan basically came up with this idea and it's spread into rumor. Their idea has become a rumor. Delta never considered this idea. Cant we close this forum already delta has said the negotiations never happened. It's been proven false by the airline.

Delta isn't taking MAXs right now. They might retire planes like the 717 but they ain't taking MAXs.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:13 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
No because some bored employee or fan basically came up with this idea and it's spread into rumor. Their idea has become a rumor. Delta never considered this idea. Cant we close this forum already delta has said the negotiations never happened. It's been proven false by the airline.

Delta isn't taking MAXs right now. They might retire planes like the 717 but they ain't taking MAXs.

DL said negotiations aren't currently happening. That's not the same as never happened. It could be they raised the idea but they and Boeing were so far apart that there was no point in going further.

It never made sense that DL would want to take MAXes 'now'. The only sensible formulation was DL unloading the 717s now and buying MAXes later.

I hope you're not upset about a discussion of a rumor on an internet forum. That's kind of why we have such forums. If we wanted established facts we'd read quarterly earnings reports and not much else.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
No because some bored employee or fan basically came up with this idea and it's spread into rumor. Their idea has become a rumor. Delta never considered this idea. Cant we close this forum already delta has said the negotiations never happened. It's been proven false by the airline.

Delta isn't taking MAXs right now. They might retire planes like the 717 but they ain't taking MAXs.

DL said negotiations aren't currently happening. That's not the same as never happened. It could be they raised the idea but they and Boeing were so far apart that there was no point in going further.

It never made sense that DL would want to take MAXes 'now'. The only sensible formulation was DL unloading the 717s now and buying MAXes later.

I hope you're not upset about a discussion of a rumor on an internet forum. That's kind of why we have such forums. If we wanted established facts we'd read quarterly earnings reports and not much else.


I hear ya. No not upset . I agree the only thing that would make sense is MAXs later but I still can't see that happening.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:58 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
No because some bored employee or fan basically came up with this idea and it's spread into rumor. Their idea has become a rumor. Delta never considered this idea. Cant we close this forum already delta has said the negotiations never happened. It's been proven false by the airline.

Delta isn't taking MAXs right now. They might retire planes like the 717 but they ain't taking MAXs.


Proven false by the airline? For a multitude of reasons, all companies dictate what information is revealed to the public and when; to protect their business interests, they will claim that rumors that are actually true are false. Any veteran a.net user should know this, since examples have been beaten to death within this forum. While I don't know if the rumor itself is credible, it's being reported by sources that generally have credibility.

Here are facts:
- The leases on 2/3 of the 717 fleet will mature within the next four years or so;
- DL is required to replace the seats within the 717 fleet, and had been planning further upgrades to the cabin and cockpit;
- Earlier this year. DL claimed that within several years the 717 would transition to a "flex" role (re: gently used off peak);
- DL also implied the 717 would be phased out by the end of the decade, when discussion its planned reduction in fleet types.

Now let's think rationally. The 717 is an expensive aircraft to operate on a per passenger basis when larger alternatives are viable. Traffic will be down significantly in the near future, and will likely take years to recover. In some markets, DL will cut frequency. In other markets (e.g. business heavy), planes will shrink. For example, all those 717 and 319 flying from smaller markets into ATL relied heavily on South-bound vacation traffic. Much of this traffic won't return for awhile; in the interim, DL will reflow traffic and maintain frequency with regional jets.

It can be asserted that the 717 is redundant for DL's needs. DL may be planning to return the planes coming off lease, anyway. Operating a small subfleet just isn't cost efficient. Ultimately, it isn't surprising DL would try to work out a deal to take back these planes as well: take the 717 now, and we'll buy the MAX later. Contrast to the narrative within this fourm, a MAX order was always likely by DL... its fleet is rapidly aging, and hundreds of planes will be at/near the end of their useful life by the end of the decade. Another large order is inevitable -- DL may have preferred to wait for the successor to the 320 and 737, but even Airbus and Boeing are impacted by this current crisis and such aircraft is too far away. That DL would choose to split its narrowbody order between Boeing and Airbus, isn't surprising, despite the recent wins for Airbus.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:31 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
No because some bored employee or fan basically came up with this idea and it's spread into rumor. Their idea has become a rumor. Delta never considered this idea. Cant we close this forum already delta has said the negotiations never happened. It's been proven false by the airline.

Delta isn't taking MAXs right now. They might retire planes like the 717 but they ain't taking MAXs.


Proven false by the airline? For a multitude of reasons, all companies dictate what information is revealed to the public and when; to protect their business interests, they will claim that rumors that are actually true are false. Any veteran a.net user should know this, since examples have been beaten to death within this forum. While I don't know if the rumor itself is credible, it's being reported by sources that generally have credibility.

Here are facts:
- The leases on 2/3 of the 717 fleet will mature within the next four years or so;
- DL is required to replace the seats within the 717 fleet, and had been planning further upgrades to the cabin and cockpit;
- Earlier this year. DL claimed that within several years the 717 would transition to a "flex" role (re: gently used off peak);
- DL also implied the 717 would be phased out by the end of the decade, when discussion its planned reduction in fleet types.

Now let's think rationally. The 717 is an expensive aircraft to operate on a per passenger basis when larger alternatives are viable. Traffic will be down significantly in the near future, and will likely take years to recover. In some markets, DL will cut frequency. In other markets (e.g. business heavy), planes will shrink. For example, all those 717 and 319 flying from smaller markets into ATL relied heavily on South-bound vacation traffic. Much of this traffic won't return for awhile; in the interim, DL will reflow traffic and maintain frequency with regional jets.

It can be asserted that the 717 is redundant for DL's needs. DL may be planning to return the planes coming off lease, anyway. Operating a small subfleet just isn't cost efficient. Ultimately, it isn't surprising DL would try to work out a deal to take back these planes as well: take the 717 now, and we'll buy the MAX later. Contrast to the narrative within this fourm, a MAX order was always likely by DL... its fleet is rapidly aging, and hundreds of planes will be at/near the end of their useful life by the end of the decade. Another large order is inevitable -- DL may have preferred to wait for the successor to the 320 and 737, but even Airbus and Boeing are impacted by this current crisis and such aircraft is too far away. That DL would choose to split its narrowbody order between Boeing and Airbus, isn't surprising, despite the recent wins for Airbus.


But if traffic will be down for years and traffic will shrink, frequencies will be cut, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that DL might use the 717s and 319s on routes where previously bigger aircraft were used (on the condition of same distance,range always) until traffic picks up again?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:53 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
But if traffic will be down for years and traffic will shrink, frequencies will be cut, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that DL might use the 717s and 319s on routes where previously bigger aircraft were used (on the condition of same distance,range always) until traffic picks up again?


DL will operate the aircraft that maximize its profitability. There's a reason WN didn't want the 717, US and B6 lost interest in the E90, UA never wanted a "small narrowbody" and AA couldn't wait to get ride of the E90 it inherited via UA. Heck, even FL stopped ordering the 717 in favor of the 73G -- they had similar trip costs but the 73G had more seats. If DL's looking to remove capacity, the 717 is "low hanging fruit." Whether DL executes a deal with Boeing or not, I'd be surprised if they didn't begin returning a portion of the 717 to Boeing (as the leases matured).
 
marcogr12
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:04 pm

And they have the A221s to sub for 717s..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:26 pm

DL will probably drive a hard bargain with Boeing. I doubt DL wants to truly rid themselves of the 717 but the lease rates are most likely too high for the current environment. I would expect DL to attempt to renegotiate the leases as the come up to get the best deal. If they don’t like the outcome they simply return it to Boeing and a reactivate parked aircraft if need be.

The real issue to me is the seat issue. Can DL and Boeing get the FAA to delay the requirement of replacing the seats? With the current operating environment the FAA might delay or modify the ruling. Even a year of two delay could be extremely beneficial. If they can’t then it would seem the 717 is almost certainly done for.
 
jagraham
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:37 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
And they have the A221s to sub for 717s..


Delta is 12 under the 76 seat limit; they would need 14 more A221s together with all the 717s to max out 223 76 seat jets. Delta coincidentally has 14 more A221s on order.

After this, A221s could replace 717s. But the remaining DL orders for A220s are for 50 A223s, which are too big for the scope clause.

It would appear that DL determined that once they had enough 110 seaters to max out the 76 seat scope, it would be better to upsize. That strongly suggests in the near term, DL planned to keep the 717s, and A223s would replace MD80s, some 319s (maybe the 73Gs, although I have seen nothing on that), indirectly some MD90s and then growth.

Of course, now all bets are off. It remains to be seen what size 76 seat RJ fleet DL wants going forward. But the 76 seat RJs will be important since they are cheaper (trip costs) to fly than any mainline jet.
 
rrbsztk
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:51 pm

jagraham wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
And they have the A221s to sub for 717s..


Delta is 12 under the 76 seat limit; they would need 14 more A221s together with all the 717s to max out 223 76 seat jets. Delta coincidentally has 14 more A221s on order.

After this, A221s could replace 717s. But the remaining DL orders for A220s are for 50 A223s, which are too big for the scope clause.

It would appear that DL determined that once they had enough 110 seaters to max out the 76 seat scope, it would be better to upsize. That strongly suggests in the near term, DL planned to keep the 717s, and A223s would replace MD80s, some 319s (maybe the 73Gs, although I have seen nothing on that), indirectly some MD90s and then growth.

Of course, now all bets are off. It remains to be seen what size 76 seat RJ fleet DL wants going forward. But the 76 seat RJs will be important since they are cheaper (trip costs) to fly than any mainline jet.


I'm not certain they chose 45 A220-100s based on scope. I've been tracking those orders/delivery schedule, and once they added the -300s they planned for only 30 A220-100s. Schedule wise the 300s would start delivery roughly when the 100s finished. Delta then subsequently purchased 15 more A220s in two separate orders at the summer airshows. Both of those orders were delivered or planned to be delivered (covid19 might change things) within the next year or two from time of order, which filed out the Mirabel production slots. My hunch is they ended with 45 A220-100s because they kept 30 when they switched to -300s because Mobile wouldn't be ready that fast/bombardier already started building/supply chain orders etc. Then at the summer airshows AirbusCanada (or whatever name at the time) was like "hey we had 5 or 10 slots we wanted to sell to another customer next year but we didn't get anyone who wants them...so...there's probably a win win deal in here for both of us"

Note I don't know this for certain, but it's my hunch
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:11 pm

jagraham wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
And they have the A221s to sub for 717s..


Delta is 12 under the 76 seat limit; they would need 14 more A221s together with all the 717s to max out 223 76 seat jets. Delta coincidentally has 14 more A221s on order.

After this, A221s could replace 717s. But the remaining DL orders for A220s are for 50 A223s, which are too big for the scope clause.

It would appear that DL determined that once they had enough 110 seaters to max out the 76 seat scope, it would be better to upsize. That strongly suggests in the near term, DL planned to keep the 717s, and A223s would replace MD80s, some 319s (maybe the 73Gs, although I have seen nothing on that), indirectly some MD90s and then growth.

Of course, now all bets are off. It remains to be seen what size 76 seat RJ fleet DL wants going forward. But the 76 seat RJs will be important since they are cheaper (trip costs) to fly than any mainline jet.


Let the scope clause go. DL's losing $100M/day and fighting for its life. Hundreds of pilot jobs will be lost. It doesn't hold much weight at this point.

Per discussion on APC, there's a huge decrease in YOY projected November pilot requirement amongst the 717. I'd be very surprised if the fleet didn't start to shrink anytime soon.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:33 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta probably did not offer to take any 737 MAX aircraft. There is always fource majour with the 717s. My spelling is wrong over the 717s. :old:

There is no force majuere in business contracts. They can break the lease and sued or file bankruptcy and void the lease

What are you talking about? Every single B2B Purchase Order I've seen (which is a contract) includes a Force Majeure clause; that's how companies get out of paying Late Fees or prevent the Customer from cancelling the Order.


There. Are. No. Force Majuere. Clauses. In. Aircraft. Leases.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:26 am

rrbsztk wrote:
jagraham wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
And they have the A221s to sub for 717s..


Delta is 12 under the 76 seat limit; they would need 14 more A221s together with all the 717s to max out 223 76 seat jets. Delta coincidentally has 14 more A221s on order.

After this, A221s could replace 717s. But the remaining DL orders for A220s are for 50 A223s, which are too big for the scope clause.

It would appear that DL determined that once they had enough 110 seaters to max out the 76 seat scope, it would be better to upsize. That strongly suggests in the near term, DL planned to keep the 717s, and A223s would replace MD80s, some 319s (maybe the 73Gs, although I have seen nothing on that), indirectly some MD90s and then growth.

Of course, now all bets are off. It remains to be seen what size 76 seat RJ fleet DL wants going forward. But the 76 seat RJs will be important since they are cheaper (trip costs) to fly than any mainline jet.


I'm not certain they chose 45 A220-100s based on scope. I've been tracking those orders/delivery schedule, and once they added the -300s they planned for only 30 A220-100s. Schedule wise the 300s would start delivery roughly when the 100s finished. Delta then subsequently purchased 15 more A220s in two separate orders at the summer airshows. Both of those orders were delivered or planned to be delivered (covid19 might change things) within the next year or two from time of order, which filed out the Mirabel production slots. My hunch is they ended with 45 A220-100s because they kept 30 when they switched to -300s because Mobile wouldn't be ready that fast/bombardier already started building/supply chain orders etc. Then at the summer airshows AirbusCanada (or whatever name at the time) was like "hey we had 5 or 10 slots we wanted to sell to another customer next year but we didn't get anyone who wants them...so...there's probably a win win deal in here for both of us"

Note I don't know this for certain, but it's my hunch


DL has 31 A221s with 14 orders still on the books. Of course as of now DL is deferring all new aircraft. Whatever the goings on behind the curtain, between the 717s and A220s DL would exactly max out the 76 seat scope clause (1.12 mainline to 1 76 RJ from 153 up to 223, keeping the overall RJ fleet at 450 (so CR2s and ERJs have to go 1 for 1 as 76 seaters come in, but that's what DL wanted).

I expected 717s to slowly leave starting around 2025, since DL is real careful about acquiring new planes. But now, despite the fact that 717s are the next best thing to A220s (and may be better overall when capital costs are factored in), what does DL need if flying is 20% of 2019 levels? 10%??? Travel will come back some, but how much?????
 
jagraham
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:27 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
And they have the A221s to sub for 717s..


Delta is 12 under the 76 seat limit; they would need 14 more A221s together with all the 717s to max out 223 76 seat jets. Delta coincidentally has 14 more A221s on order.

After this, A221s could replace 717s. But the remaining DL orders for A220s are for 50 A223s, which are too big for the scope clause.

It would appear that DL determined that once they had enough 110 seaters to max out the 76 seat scope, it would be better to upsize. That strongly suggests in the near term, DL planned to keep the 717s, and A223s would replace MD80s, some 319s (maybe the 73Gs, although I have seen nothing on that), indirectly some MD90s and then growth.

Of course, now all bets are off. It remains to be seen what size 76 seat RJ fleet DL wants going forward. But the 76 seat RJs will be important since they are cheaper (trip costs) to fly than any mainline jet.


Let the scope clause go. DL's losing $100M/day and fighting for its life. Hundreds of pilot jobs will be lost. It doesn't hold much weight at this point.

Per discussion on APC, there's a huge decrease in YOY projected November pilot requirement amongst the 717. I'd be very surprised if the fleet didn't start to shrink anytime soon.



I will let the scope clause go when DALPA lets the scope clause go
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:59 am

n7371f wrote:
Folks. No company, DAL included, is going to comment to the media about potential negotiations involving scenarios like the 717 for MAX deal.

ctrabs0114 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
DL's response that no such negotiation is currently happening suggests DL didn't offer to take enough MAXes or that Boeing prefers to keep the cash flow from the leases.

Or Ed Bastian and the powers that be in Atlanta are keeping their cards close to the vest and they're not going to negotiate (presuming there are, in fact, negotiations in progress) through the media. That said, I could eventually see DL look into the 737-8 as a partial replacement for any remaining 717s, depending on the direction DL takes post-COVID19.


Which, I respectfully submit, was the point I was trying to make. I'm probably among a small minority of A.netters, but I wouldn't have any qualms about booking a flight on a MAX. I don't know if DL will in fact ever make the plunge to get on the MAX bandwagon, but I wouldn't be mad if they did.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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