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777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:45 am

BNAMealer wrote:
Lootess wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

First, those were just words. Second, the Boeing NMA ship has sailed, the MAX woes killed it.

I’ll believe DL will order new Boeing planes when I see it. Based on actions from the last 5 years, there has to be some beef between the two.


Ed said there isn't any beef.


Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


Because CFM shot Boeing in the foot by not allowing DL to overhaul the LEAP. The A321N deal came down to engine MRO.

With the engine deal with RR, you'll likely see a 787 in the Delta livery by the end of the decade, if not sooner.
 
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Rifitto
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:05 am

BNAMealer wrote:
Lootess wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

First, those were just words. Second, the Boeing NMA ship has sailed, the MAX woes killed it.

I’ll believe DL will order new Boeing planes when I see it. Based on actions from the last 5 years, there has to be some beef between the two.


Ed said there isn't any beef.


Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.

Concerning the 787 the answer is very simple , Airbus gave them better price for the 350s ,and that's Ed Bastian words
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:18 am

Rifitto wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Ed said there isn't any beef.


Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.

Concerning the 787 the answer is very simple , Airbus gave them better price for the 350s ,and that's Ed Bastian words


I thought that was for the 744 replacement and it was between the A350 and 77W? The A350 is quite a bit bigger than the 787.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:18 am

BNAMealer wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
It was just rumored in a different Airliners.net thread that Delta is looking at retire the 737-800. If that's rumor is true what would take their place? I'm of the opinion the 737-8 Max would be a good replacement. Maybe even in substantially numbers.


Why on earth would get rid of their 738’s? Are they planning on becoming a third of their pre-COVID size?


Gosh I hope not. Just like when American announced a coming retirement of their 737-800's. Kind of surprised me. But then American had the MAX on order. This is also surprising to me, but since Delta just retired the 737-700 with a good deal from Boeing, new build or white tails and the 717 as a "trade in" why not? The 737-800 won't last forever some are 20 years old already. I don't know if Delta long term would want all their narrow body eggs in one basket (Airbus) anyway. Might as well strike when unprecedented discounts and flexibility are offered.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:37 am

BNAMealer wrote:
Lootess wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

First, those were just words. Second, the Boeing NMA ship has sailed, the MAX woes killed it.

I’ll believe DL will order new Boeing planes when I see it. Based on actions from the last 5 years, there has to be some beef between the two.


Ed said there isn't any beef.


Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


I think Delta was hoping for the NMA. That doesn't look like it will happen in a foreseeable future if at all. Plan was to keep the 767-300ER until 2030. Then Covid and a retirement of the ER by 2025 leaving no planes in the 220-240 seater category. 787-8 is a perfect replacement size for the ER. Lot's of other airlines have found the 787 an economically attractive 767-300ER replacement. I assume Boeing will give fire sale discounts. So if the economics are there why wouldn't Delta strike?
 
ehaase
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:39 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

Agreed. The 788 is badly needed for a 767 replacement. The A330 is just too big and heavy for the majority of 767 routes.


The purpose of the 2014 widebody order was to replace the 747-400 and start replacing the 767-300ER. If having an aircraft roughly the size of the 767-300ER was important to Delta, it would have either kept its 788 order (inherited from Northwest) or ordered the 338 instead of the 339. Delta officially cancelled the 788 order shortly after the 339 and 359 order. I think Delta will cancel current 767-300ER routes that can't justify a 339. Maybe some of those routes can be partially replaced with the 321XLR. I remember Richard Anderson making positive comments about the 787-10, but the 339 can do almost everything for Delta that the 787-10 can. If I had my way, Delta's 2014 order would have been for 7 772LR's to replace the remaining 7 747-400's and kept the order for 20 788's to start replacing 767's, but Delta's analysts and executives are a lot smarter than me and chose the 339 and 359.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Reuters has reported that Boeing is looking to place 40 MAX whitetails with Delta. It would be interesting to know the price per frame!

Link?

I searched for this story and instead found Boeing is shopping white tails around to multiple airlines, including 40 to Delta.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-boei ... KKBN26M5JB

That is not Delta buying, but rather accepting a free meal and watching the sales pitch.

It might happen, Airbus might counter with a better offer or Delta says they will shrink.

Lightsaber


We have one report of Ryanair doing some shopping, but FR itself suggests it's just trying to get the MAXes it already has on order integrated into their fleet.

The Irish Independent newspaper reported that Ryanair, one of the largest customers for the jet that was grounded worldwide in early 2019, is eyeing an order for between 150 and 200 MAX aircraft, potentially by the end of the year.

Ref: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ryanair- ... 14987.html

Maybe FR enjoyed the free meal and the media made itself a meal out of the event.
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2175301
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:00 pm

I am sure that Delta will look at the opportunity. Someone will be running numbers and looking at the pro's and con's. Biggest con I see right now is cash availability due to the Covid-19 restructuring.

I'm actually personally positive that Delta may bite... I'm sure they will if Boeing can get the engine mfr to allow Delta to overhaul the engines.

Have a great day,
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:13 pm

777Mech wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Ed said there isn't any beef.


Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


Because CFM shot Boeing in the foot by not allowing DL to overhaul the LEAP. The A321N deal came down to engine MRO.

With the engine deal with RR, you'll likely see a 787 in the Delta livery by the end of the decade, if not sooner.


^^^THIS. Plus it's hilarious that some people here keep thinking that corporations make multi-billion dollar decisions based on 'beef.' Can we let that trope die, already?

And *now* the 788 might make sense, but it really didn't pre-COVID. The calculus has changed on a lot of things, but you can't retroactively apply current thinking to any decisions that were made prior to this crisis. Similarly, you can't make new decisions based on sunk costs of the old ones. Neither Boeing nor Delta are immature to the point of letting 'beef' about past decisions influence current business.
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JohanTally
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:50 pm

Does anyone know if these aircraft are true "white tails" or are they painted in a livery with interiors?
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:20 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.

Agreed. The 788 is badly needed for a 767 replacement. The A330 is just too big and heavy for the majority of 767 routes.

788 is at least the same size as A332/A338, especially considering most 788s are 9Y vs A332 at 8Y. Both are noticeably bigger than 763 which is 7Y..
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strfyr51
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Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:35 pm

[quote="KFTG"]So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.[/quotene can do the conversion and has the Expertise to operate
Delta could only Start to do that if they sent those 717'a out to have them converted into Freighters then sold them after the conversion as they might well make dandy freighters for a night freight company operated by Airborne or another operator of that caliber as Airborne has the Expertise to convert. Maintain, and Fly them.. They presently fly for DHL but DHL is not an airline Nor are they an Airline operator. And the 717 would be a fine short to medium range freighter as it's about the size of a DC9-30 series with Updated Engines.
 
777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:35 pm

dennypayne wrote:
777Mech wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


Because CFM shot Boeing in the foot by not allowing DL to overhaul the LEAP. The A321N deal came down to engine MRO.

With the engine deal with RR, you'll likely see a 787 in the Delta livery by the end of the decade, if not sooner.


^^^THIS. Plus it's hilarious that some people here keep thinking that corporations make multi-billion dollar decisions based on 'beef.' Can we let that trope die, already?

And *now* the 788 might make sense, but it really didn't pre-COVID. The calculus has changed on a lot of things, but you can't retroactively apply current thinking to any decisions that were made prior to this crisis. Similarly, you can't make new decisions based on sunk costs of the old ones. Neither Boeing nor Delta are immature to the point of letting 'beef' about past decisions influence current business.


And as a shareholder, if DL made billion dollar business decisions based off a "beef" with another company, I'd want their heads. It's not financially viable for either parties to have beef, ESPECIALLY during these times.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:43 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Does anyone know if these aircraft are true "white tails" or are they painted in a livery with interiors?


Maybe truly white. From Reuters:

As the 737 MAX edges closer to commercial flight after an 18-month grounding, Boeing is scrambling to find buyers for the so-called “white tails” - jets painted white, awaiting an airline livery, or whose color schemes need to be swapped.

Boeing has had discussions with Delta to take 40 of the 737 MAX “white tails,” the people said.

Boeing and Delta declined to comment.


https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK
 
JohanTally
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:37 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Does anyone know if these aircraft are true "white tails" or are they painted in a livery with interiors?


Maybe truly white. From Reuters:

As the 737 MAX edges closer to commercial flight after an 18-month grounding, Boeing is scrambling to find buyers for the so-called “white tails” - jets painted white, awaiting an airline livery, or whose color schemes need to be swapped.

Boeing has had discussions with Delta to take 40 of the 737 MAX “white tails,” the people said.

Boeing and Delta declined to comment.


https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK


I have seen that article I was just curious if maybe there's pictures of this fleet of white tails or are they loosely using the term white tail for aircraft orphaned by cancellations but already configured for a specific airline.
 
Bolante007
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:15 am

I sorta see why, I mean think about it, Delta is the only American company that does not favour American made planes sure they have some 737s but Delta favours Airbus. I can see why they may want to order and trade some of their old 717s for newer 737 MAX, for starters it will help Boeing domestically, Delta just might get a very good deal from these planes as Boeing's reputation and value have gone down, now the question would they do it? Perhaps this is that type of mentality of supporting American companies and Delta being American and not buying jets from Boeing looks pretty bad for Boeing, again all this is just speculation.

I think if Delta does this it will be a bad financial decision, they are not taking debt, why not sell some 717s for some A321XL, or order more A220s? As much as I want the MAX to succeed with the amount of issues and drama that has come out of Boeing is hard to justify buying or trading any jet for a 737 MAX, costumers will be hawking this plane when traveling goes back to normal, their reputation is on the ground and Delta making this move they're asking for trouble I just hope it's just a rumor.
 
Lootess
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:45 am

dennypayne wrote:
777Mech wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


Because CFM shot Boeing in the foot by not allowing DL to overhaul the LEAP. The A321N deal came down to engine MRO.

With the engine deal with RR, you'll likely see a 787 in the Delta livery by the end of the decade, if not sooner.


^^^THIS. Plus it's hilarious that some people here keep thinking that corporations make multi-billion dollar decisions based on 'beef.' Can we let that trope die, already?

And *now* the 788 might make sense, but it really didn't pre-COVID. The calculus has changed on a lot of things, but you can't retroactively apply current thinking to any decisions that were made prior to this crisis. Similarly, you can't make new decisions based on sunk costs of the old ones. Neither Boeing nor Delta are immature to the point of letting 'beef' about past decisions influence current business.


Yep, things are different now, and since Delta now has a Rolls-Royce Trent shop now, there is that possibility of the 787 someday. Doesn't mean it'll happen but the TechOps factor is there to land a maintenance contract with an order.

Everything changes, people used to be so sure well over a decade ago that Delta had the "gentleman's agreement" with Boeing, then a merger with NW happened. People also like to pretend the 739ER order didn't happen at-all around the time they were buying more A333s.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:58 am

dennypayne wrote:
And *now* the 788 might make sense, but it really didn't pre-COVID. The calculus has changed on a lot of things, but you can't retroactively apply current thinking to any decisions that were made prior to this crisis.


So because of Corona, now it makes sense to add two different types to the fleet? 787-8&737MAX

FWIW I don't disagree with your premise about pretty vs post COVID thinking, but that makes it less likely for them to add new types, not more.
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FlyHPN
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:58 am

The most Delta thing for Delta to do, IMO, would be to take the 7M8 white tails (not so valuable slots) and swap some 321neo (valuable slots) for 338s (not so valuable slots).

That gives them a modern mid sized NB to replace A320s and 738s, gives up large NB which they probably don’t need right now, and takes on a smaller WB that has commonality with their future WB fleet. Plus, it would keep both vendors happy.

As others said above, CFM would probably have to give in to a maintenance deal.
 
777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:39 am

zkojq wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
And *now* the 788 might make sense, but it really didn't pre-COVID. The calculus has changed on a lot of things, but you can't retroactively apply current thinking to any decisions that were made prior to this crisis.


So because of Corona, now it makes sense to add two different types to the fleet? 787-8&737MAX

FWIW I don't disagree with your premise about pretty vs post COVID thinking, but that makes it less likely for them to add new types, not more.


If it is financially feasible, it absolutely would make sense to add those types. The MAX would be the easiest to integrate, you already have a pilot group for that, and you're offloading the 717 =/=. With the 787, you're already getting rid of a fleet type in the 763 so that's =/=, plus you already have engine maintenance support from day 1.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:13 am

777Mech wrote:

If it is financially feasible, it absolutely would make sense to add those types.
The MAX would be the easiest to integrate, you already have a pilot group for that, and you're offloading the 717 =/=.


Thanks to the MAX crashes extra training for MAX crews will be required. Whereas with 320neos it's a common qualification for current 320/21ceos and 321neos when they arrive.

777Mech wrote:
With the 787, you're already getting rid of a fleet type in the 763 so that's =/=, plus you already have engine maintenance support from day 1.


Whereas with A338s you get to have one type less with the engine maintenance being supported as is thanks to the 339s.

This is a case of deciding to have two fleet types less vs not having two fleet types less.
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BrianDromey
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:30 am

777Mech wrote:
If it is financially feasible, it absolutely would make sense to add those types. The MAX would be the easiest to integrate, you already have a pilot group for that, and you're offloading the 717 =/=. With the 787, you're already getting rid of a fleet type in the 763 so that's =/=, plus you already have engine maintenance support from day 1.


But does DL need the capacity? What would they do with 40 white tail 7M8 delivered in short order? They are retiring 717s and 767s because they don’t need the capacity. Does the 7M8 add anything to the fleet mix of 717/A220/738/739/319/320/321/757? 40 is neither here nor there for Delta. It introduces a new type, but wouldn’t replace one, or more types. It introduces a new engine TechOps dont look after and probably won’t be allowed to.

I think this is a daft idea. 40 new aircraft, right now, as they are parking aircraft and scrambling to retrain current crews? Seems unlikely.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:17 am

zkojq wrote:
Whereas with A338s you get to have one type less with the engine maintenance being supported as is thanks to the 339s.

This is a case of deciding to have two fleet types less vs not having two fleet types less.


Delta is obviously waiting for a proper 767 replacement, I could see the 767X. If Airbus or Boeing build a lower MTOW A338 or 787-8 I could also see Delta order one of these.
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jeffrey0032j
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:23 am

BrianDromey wrote:
777Mech wrote:
If it is financially feasible, it absolutely would make sense to add those types. The MAX would be the easiest to integrate, you already have a pilot group for that, and you're offloading the 717 =/=. With the 787, you're already getting rid of a fleet type in the 763 so that's =/=, plus you already have engine maintenance support from day 1.


But does DL need the capacity? What would they do with 40 white tail 7M8 delivered in short order? They are retiring 717s and 767s because they don’t need the capacity. Does the 7M8 add anything to the fleet mix of 717/A220/738/739/319/320/321/757? 40 is neither here nor there for Delta. It introduces a new type, but wouldn’t replace one, or more types. It introduces a new engine TechOps dont look after and probably won’t be allowed to.

I think this is a daft idea. 40 new aircraft, right now, as they are parking aircraft and scrambling to retrain current crews? Seems unlikely.

They need something to replace the 319/320s and 757s. Some of the 320s are elderly.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:29 am

zkojq wrote:
777Mech wrote:

If it is financially feasible, it absolutely would make sense to add those types.
The MAX would be the easiest to integrate, you already have a pilot group for that, and you're offloading the 717 =/=.


Thanks to the MAX crashes extra training for MAX crews will be required. Whereas with 320neos it's a common qualification for current 320/21ceos and 321neos when they arrive.

777Mech wrote:
With the 787, you're already getting rid of a fleet type in the 763 so that's =/=, plus you already have engine maintenance support from day 1.


Whereas with A338s you get to have one type less with the engine maintenance being supported as is thanks to the 339s.

This is a case of deciding to have two fleet types less vs not having two fleet types less.

Since Delta is already maintaining 787 engines for other airlines, doesn't matter to them. Plus they get to avoid the pitfalls of owning an aircraft family that will be shrinking rapidly in the next 10 years. We have seen the (largely) logistical and cost issues DL had with maintaining orphan or "rare" planes like MD90s, the same will happen to the A330 family very soon. I wouldn't be surprised if they get 787s as a safeguard for a scenario where the A330 maintenance costs becomes uncompetitive due to the explanation above, and if and when that happens, the A330neo fleet will be wound down.
 
777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:49 am

BrianDromey wrote:
777Mech wrote:
If it is financially feasible, it absolutely would make sense to add those types. The MAX would be the easiest to integrate, you already have a pilot group for that, and you're offloading the 717 =/=. With the 787, you're already getting rid of a fleet type in the 763 so that's =/=, plus you already have engine maintenance support from day 1.


But does DL need the capacity? What would they do with 40 white tail 7M8 delivered in short order? They are retiring 717s and 767s because they don’t need the capacity. Does the 7M8 add anything to the fleet mix of 717/A220/738/739/319/320/321/757? 40 is neither here nor there for Delta. It introduces a new type, but wouldn’t replace one, or more types. It introduces a new engine TechOps dont look after and probably won’t be allowed to.

I think this is a daft idea. 40 new aircraft, right now, as they are parking aircraft and scrambling to retrain current crews? Seems unlikely.


Like I said, financially feasible, and that includes MRO deals.

They obviously don't need the capacity now, but they do need to plan for the future. And as much as I hate to say it, the MAX does fit. The 717s will be gone, the 738/319 are pushing 20 years old, and the 320 have hit an average of 25 years old. The 757 is up there, but those will be replaced by the A321N.

As for saying it doesn't replace one or more types, it can accelerate the 717 retirements and get rid of one more pilot group.

I hate the MAX with a passion, and I'll refuse to fly on it as a passenger, but I do see Boeing placing these 40 with Delta and Boeing taking back all of the 717s in short order.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Ed said there isn't any beef.


Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


Agreed. The 788 is badly needed for a 767 replacement. The A330 is just too big and heavy for the majority of 767 routes.


The A330 is too big and heavy for most 767 routes, but the 787 (which is the same size as the A330) is badly needed?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:47 am

MrHMSH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Ok, then why don’t they have any MAX’s or 787’s? The latter, particularly the 788, makes a lot more sense for their widebody needs.


Agreed. The 788 is badly needed for a 767 replacement. The A330 is just too big and heavy for the majority of 767 routes.


The A330 is too big and heavy for most 767 routes, but the 787 (which is the same size as the A330) is badly needed?


The 788 may hold a similar amount of passengers as a 332/338 but it is a base model and optimized for a variety of stage lengths. The 332/338 is a shrink of the A333/339. Shrinks are not known for their economics outside of very particular missions.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:02 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Plus they get to avoid the pitfalls of owning an aircraft family that will be shrinking rapidly in the next 10 years. We have seen the (largely) logistical and cost issues DL had with maintaining orphan or "rare" planes like MD90s, the same will happen to the A330 family very soon.


I disagree on this. The A330 has a much, much wider operator base than the MD90 and 717 ever did and there's more A330s delivered than both of those types combined. I doubt there will be any issues regarding spare parts - there's more than 1,500 A330s delivered and ~350 A340s also. This number is going up (albiet slowly) with A330neo deliveries. The MD90 and 717 programs struggled to get to 200 IIRC.

For an operator like Delta, who flies their planes until there's no life left in them (covid19 induced retirements aside) residual values won't be an issue for them.

Delta has firmly staked their future in the A330neo and I'm sure it will serve them well.
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DLHAM
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:13 am

BrianDromey wrote:
But does DL need the capacity? What would they do with 40 white tail 7M8 delivered in short order? They are retiring 717s and 767s because they don’t need the capacity. Does the 7M8 add anything to the fleet mix of 717/A220/738/739/319/320/321/757? 40 is neither here nor there for Delta. It introduces a new type, but wouldn’t replace one, or more types. It introduces a new engine TechOps dont look after and probably won’t be allowed to.

I think this is a daft idea. 40 new aircraft, right now, as they are parking aircraft and scrambling to retrain current crews? Seems unlikely.


They may not need additional capacity (now), but if they can get their hands on brandnew, modern, very efficient and cheap to maintain aircraft in very short notice for a very low price I am sure they would happily kick a few more old A320s out of the fleet that dont get better over the time.

MrHMSH wrote:
The A330 is too big and heavy for most 767 routes, but the 787 (which is the same size as the A330) is badly needed?


The 787-8 has the same problem as the A338 for most of the 767 routes: too heavy and too much range. But I think that the 787-8 still is the slightly better choice because its not a shrink, what the A338 is. In case of Delta the 787-8 would only make sense when they also order some 787-10s for Europe trunk routes. But it would not be ideal at all, I hope Boeing goes for a 767X!!!
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 am

If I were making the decisions at delta, I would take the 737 max in all honesty. It still offers superior performance over predecessors. I remember The delta CEO saying the only reason they saved themselves from the max debacle purely out of luck. It was an aircraft they were going to get eventually
 
kavok
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:57 am

Honest question:

In the ticket booking process, what percent of pax actually bother to look at plane type when booking their flights? Obviously some do, particularly those frequent flyers trying to avoid RJs... but I would wager the answer is probably less than a third, once you consider most are not aviation geeks.

Point being, many pax will book flights on the Max and not even know it. They just know they have a plane ticket from XXX-YYY.
 
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Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:46 pm

KFTG wrote:
So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.


Well, it's like you trade in your old car for a new car. You give the old car to the dealer and then pay some more cash, right? This would be no difference. Remember that this is not a new concept. Boeing did this for Singapore Airlines once. It took 17 A340-300 from SQ and sold SQ 34 777-200ERs. ( https://simpleflying.com/boeing-singapo ... a340-fate/ ) I don't think anyone would assume SQ just swap 17 A340s for 34 777s. SQ would have paid some cash on top of the A340s.

Now, not knowing if this is true or not, but this actually makes sense. The 717 has zero value in the market. Not even the parts have any value now that almost no one is flying it. Boeing wants to get a decent carrier to buy a large number of 737MAX, to rebuild confidence of the public. The IAG deal was not sufficient since it's conditional. If Boeing can get Delta to buy 100 MAXs, it would be a huge boost for Boeing. The value to Boeing of a sale of MAX to Delta is way more than just a normal sale of planes. It may be willing to take the 717s off the hands of Delta for that.

If this really happens, Boeing will probably wants to do something with the 717. May be a 717BCF would work. There are still DC9F, MD80F, 737 Classic freighters and 727F flying, even in the US. Delta is not in the business of freighter conversion, but Boeing is.

This could be a win-win deal.
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Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:53 pm

raylee67 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
So they want to trade 91 10-20 year-old aircraft for 100 brand new ones?
If true, another example of Delta's arrogance.


Well, it's like you trade in your old car for a new car. You give the old car to the dealer and then pay some more cash, right? This would be no difference. Remember that this is not a new concept. Boeing did this for Singapore Airlines once. It took 17 A340-300 from SQ and sold SQ 34 777-200ERs. ( https://simpleflying.com/boeing-singapo ... a340-fate/ ) I don't think anyone would assume SQ just swap 17 A340s for 34 777s. SQ would have paid some cash on top of the A340s.

Now, not knowing if this is true or not, but this actually makes sense. The 717 has zero value in the market. Not even the parts have any value now that almost no one is flying it. Boeing wants to get a decent carrier to buy a large number of 737MAX, to rebuild confidence of the public. The IAG deal was not sufficient since it's conditional. If Boeing can get Delta to buy 100 MAXs, it would be a huge boost for Boeing. The value to Boeing of a sale of MAX to Delta is way more than just a normal sale of planes. It may be willing to take the 717s off the hands of Delta for that.

If this really happens, Boeing will probably wants to do something with the 717. May be a 717BCF would work. There are still DC9F, MD80F, 737 Classic freighters and 727F flying, even in the US. Delta is not in the business of freighter conversion, but Boeing is.

This could be a win-win deal.

An STC for a 717F would be millions, for ultimately at best a few dozen examples. DC-9 never had a door cut into it by anybody except the Douglas factory, and there’s only been a handful of MD-80 conversions (but expect to see more soon). 717 is too niche to survive as a freighter. DC-9s have hung on for 50 years because of the mass of spare parts, engines, available.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:01 pm

Boeing could easily offer a long term parts pricing structure, and trade in credit/financing (Boeing Capital is the lessor for the 717's, mostly, I believe), to make this a simple decision. I'm pretty sure the CFM position on the LEAP overhaul rights has probably also shifted this year. I've learned to never count DL out on any surprising niche order.

Even an order for a dozen Superjets wouldn't shock me.

The real question to me would be how Boeing would then use a middle-aged 717 fleet (which could theoretically live for another 20 years or so)? I think all 88 came from SWA (Air Tran) to DL, via Boeing Capital.

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/05 ... wa-livery/

My guess is the 717's would be likely to be scattered about Africa/Asia/South America.
 
KFTG
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:23 pm

This is all fascinating, but Delta has precisely zero Max simulators, and it takes months to build, ship, and certify a device. Boeing has their own simulators now, along with some airlines, but induction of 40+ white tails "overnight" will not be without its logistical challenges.
 
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Re: DL looking to trade 717s for 100 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:24 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
An STC for a 717F would be millions, for ultimately at best a few dozen examples. DC-9 never had a door cut into it by anybody except the Douglas factory, and there’s only been a handful of MD-80 conversions (but expect to see more soon). 717 is too niche to survive as a freighter. DC-9s have hung on for 50 years because of the mass of spare parts, engines, available.

Yes, and the BR engines on 717 are quite niche and not particularly durable and by today's standards not particularly efficient.

I think 737-800F will get a lot of conversions given how many were built and all with CFM56.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:44 pm

KFTG wrote:
This is all fascinating, but Delta has precisely zero Max simulators, and it takes months to build, ship, and certify a device.

So?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:23 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Does anyone know if these aircraft are true "white tails" or are they painted in a livery with interiors?


I seem to recall seeing a few Jet Airways painted in full livery, but I believe the majority of their completed frames
are painted white, with perhaps the 9W winglets remaining.

9W had like 200-250 Max's ordered, but I don't know how many undelivered , completed frames exist right now..
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:01 pm

How is this thread even still going ROFL, seriously people. DL is not ordering either of these viruses of corporate lunacy. The MAX is toasted oats and DL is about winning hearts and minds, not then putting them in planes that everyone knows are a failure in any one of 10 different ways. The 787 has its list of issues since debut and very much on-going. How long until trash left by underpaid contractors in CHS causes a fire in an arching situation? DL is not stupid and will steer clear of both failed models.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:04 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Does anyone know if these aircraft are true "white tails" or are they painted in a livery with interiors?


I seem to recall seeing a few Jet Airways painted in full livery, but I believe the majority of their completed frames
are painted white, with perhaps the 9W winglets remaining.

9W had like 200-250 Max's ordered, but I don't know how many undelivered , completed frames exist right now..


All/almost of 9W airframes were sold to GECAS.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:07 pm

Sokes wrote:
KFTG wrote:
This is all fascinating, but Delta has precisely zero Max simulators, and it takes months to build, ship, and certify a device.

So?

Yeah it is not a "significant" problem to take care of these days.
There are just ~34 MAX simulators are in service, and it is likely that 90% of MAX customers didn't have those simulators.
So it is not very big trouble now, or at least it is not DL own trouble (if DL actually orders the MAX)
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:15 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Agreed. The 788 is badly needed for a 767 replacement. The A330 is just too big and heavy for the majority of 767 routes.


The A330 is too big and heavy for most 767 routes, but the 787 (which is the same size as the A330) is badly needed?


The 788 may hold a similar amount of passengers as a 332/338 but it is a base model and optimized for a variety of stage lengths. The 332/338 is a shrink of the A333/339. Shrinks are not known for their economics outside of very particular missions.


Sure, the A338 isn't exactly the most efficient, but your point was that the A330 is too big and heavy (i.e. capable) to be a 767 replacement, yet your suggestion is an aircraft that is the same size and has the same long-range capability is not. I don't understand the reasoning, surely neither option is ideal but the 787 may be less unsuited to the job (though with A339s on property and fuel prices low the situation may not be clear-cut).
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:17 pm

I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.
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Tiredofhumanity
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:56 pm

keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


There has been nothing said about the 757's or 764's, and why would they be dragging in a bunch of 15-20 year old A320's or NG's for replacements/additions?
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:47 pm

Tiredofhumanity wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


There has been nothing said about the 757's or 764's, and why would they be dragging in a bunch of 15-20 year old A320's or NG's for replacements/additions?


Low costs, right size, existing pilot, MRO infrastructure.
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Tiredofhumanity
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:15 am

keesje wrote:
Tiredofhumanity wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


There has been nothing said about the 757's or 764's, and why would they be dragging in a bunch of 15-20 year old A320's or NG's for replacements/additions?


Low costs, right size, existing pilot, MRO infrastructure.


764's are still undergoing interior mods, and the youngest 757's have enough life and could be used internationally - I would think XLR's would be expensive right now. Used NG's and 320's I would hope be used to replace the existing 20-30 year old A320 fleet.
 
Antarius
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:26 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
How is this thread even still going ROFL, seriously people. DL is not ordering either of these viruses of corporate lunacy. The MAX is toasted oats and DL is about winning hearts and minds, not then putting them in planes that everyone knows are a failure in any one of 10 different ways. The 787 has its list of issues since debut and very much on-going. How long until trash left by underpaid contractors in CHS causes a fire in an arching situation? DL is not stupid and will steer clear of both failed models.


The 787 is a failed model with nearly 1000 delivered and 1500 orders?

I long for the days of past when the internet was limited to the educated.
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Antarius
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:29 am

keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


Why would DL park their 757s and 767s? Fuel is really cheap. Not sure why they'd park perfectly good aircraft only to go get more from somewhere else?
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777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:20 am

Antarius wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


Why would DL park their 757s and 767s? Fuel is really cheap. Not sure why they'd park perfectly good aircraft only to go get more from somewhere else?


757s I agree, but 767s are coming up on heavy checks and can make Delta more money being sold for freighter conversions or scrap.

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