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Antarius
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:29 am

keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


Why would DL park their 757s and 767s? Fuel is really cheap. Not sure why they'd park perfectly good aircraft only to go get more from somewhere else?
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777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:20 am

Antarius wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess Delta is in survival mode and will stick to 737NG, A330CEO as long as possible and convert orders to A321XLR's to carefully keep/ restore it international flights. Park 757, 767s, 717sand add A320s, 737-8 that become available from lessors, failing airlines and A220s.


Why would DL park their 757s and 767s? Fuel is really cheap. Not sure why they'd park perfectly good aircraft only to go get more from somewhere else?


757s I agree, but 767s are coming up on heavy checks and can make Delta more money being sold for freighter conversions or scrap.
 
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MetsNomad
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Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:47 pm

According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?
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WN732
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:54 pm

MetsNomad wrote:
According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?


With the 737 still being an important player in their fleet, it is logical that eventually, they will order the MAX. The airline industry needs to vastly recover before we will see any major orders though. At least that's my opinion. They are still taking Airbus deliveries but again those were placed quite a while back.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:02 pm

Boy, Reuters is busy, they're also saying Boeing is targeting Alaska and Ryanair:

https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26U08A
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lightsaber
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:19 pm

WN732 wrote:
MetsNomad wrote:
According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?


With the 737 still being an important player in their fleet, it is logical that eventually, they will order the MAX. The airline industry needs to vastly recover before we will see any major orders though. At least that's my opinion. They are still taking Airbus deliveries but again those were placed quite a while back.

For the right price, DL should order. The large 738 and 739ER fleets make this an easy addition. The tough negotiation will be the engine overhauls. Currently DL has rights for the BR700 (717 engine, to my knowledge never rally used, the CFM-56 (-5 and -7 for the A320 and 737NG), CF6, Trent 1000/7000/Xwb (as part of the A330NEO/A350 widebody order), Pratt GTFs (PW1100G, PW1500G, and I believe rights to the PW1200G/1700G/1900G, but the last bit I haven't seen convincing evidence either way).

It is up to CFM/GE to convince DL for the MAX. It is an easy addition, but DL will hold their ground.

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75driver
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:24 pm

A few months ago I didn’t think DL was a player for the Max but I do now. Don’t think you’ll see an order until we get through the next 6 months unless Boeing comes with some insanely attractive price or a creative financing deal. There are plenty available and it’s a buyers market. It adds to the debt load but long term it would be a huge financial winner.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:57 pm

75driver wrote:
A few months ago I didn’t think DL was a player for the Max but I do now. Don’t think you’ll see an order until we get through the next 6 months unless Boeing comes with some insanely attractive price or a creative financing deal. There are plenty available and it’s a buyers market. It adds to the debt load but long term it would be a huge financial winner.


I think Boeing might be offering a very attractive price right now. I wouldn’t be shocked to see a deal announced before year end. Certification is coming and they need to get airplanes out of parking lots.
 
777Mech
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:43 am

MetsNomad wrote:
According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?


I'm thinking we're gonna hear something on Tuesday regarding the MAX.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:56 am

whats happening on TUESDAY?


777Mech wrote:
MetsNomad wrote:
According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?


I'm thinking we're gonna hear something on Tuesday regarding the MAX.
 
panamair
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:28 am

TropicalSky wrote:
whats happening on TUESDAY?


777Mech wrote:
MetsNomad wrote:
According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?


I'm thinking we're gonna hear something on Tuesday regarding the MAX.


DL is announcing Q3 results on Tuesday 13 Oct.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:41 am

777Mech wrote:
I'm thinking we're gonna hear something on Tuesday regarding the MAX.


Educated guess? Or some insight you are providing? I would guess no order until certification, but if an airline feels certification is forthcoming (and BA gives a deal for pre-certification or whatever), it would be possible.

I also think it would be unusual to announce losing billions of dollars and updating the ever-increasing debt while also announcing new aircraft. But, again, it is within the realm of possibility.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:06 am

Ehh, just my opinion here but I don't see it happening now.
There is zero need whatsoever for any new aircraft beyond what is already commited to Airbus.
It kind of goes against DL's image and brand right now to double-down on the MAX, when is still isn't certified, isn't flying, and has a huge stigma in the near-term.
Particularly when you see how much DL is focusing on safety and cleanliness in the near-term with COVID.
DL would need a massive PR spin to go into why its taking the MAX now.

I do agree the MAX will eventually be at DL, but that still several years way.

The only way I see the MAX going to DL is in the event of some truly outrageous deal, (e.g., taking B738 off their hand for MAX). Or, some commitment to take in like 2023+ with some massive contingencies and performance guarentee.

I suspect at best on Tue, in the Q3 announcement we may finally here about the revised Airbus delivery timeline, recap the flight retirement decisions previously announced, and the massive write-downs.

FWIW, that Reuters link posted today is from 10/1 and is the same regurgitated information that came out last week. Nothing new in the past 7-10 days.
 
Falcon16
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:54 am

Any order now will have to be based on zero cash from Delta. Boeing Finance could be a lessor and pay the deposits with Delta either leaving the jets with Boeing Finance or buying them from Boeing Finance.
 
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75driver
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:00 am

Agree with our friend from PSU although I’m not sure how much info comes out about Bus’ orders.

The earnings report is going to be bleak. Delta is having to account for the huge number of VEOP’s and it’s my understanding they charge 100% of it in Q3 financials. Can’t see any orders being talked about in light of such a report that will look worse than it actually is, albeit bad enough.

Delta doesn’t have the need yet for the Max but they will although I see it later rather than sooner. Debt is such a huge part of surviving right now that taking on more for the MAX is definitely not in DL’s character. Airlines still need to borrow for existence and announcing a fleet replacement order while securing funds is not in the wheel house.

Anything wouldn’t be surprising considering the times but a MAX order in the short term is still unlikely.
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:57 am

I hope delta uses this max program to get more airbus planes
 
randomdude83
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:21 am

Based on everything i'm reading, I feel that Delta's actual choices are the following:

1-Make a deal with Boeing, trade 717 for 737Max, if inevitable layoffs happen...blame it on Covid and defend your 717 trade by bringing up the 2023 required modification + covid and that Boeing threw a 737MAX Deal as icing on the cake. Also that delta has a 737 base and they are 'saving costs' by eliminating a type and not out laying off people while buying brand new un safe planes (you know it'll be thrown around like that by media/twitter public, lets not debate it no matter how much Boeing/faa proves other wise)

2- Don't purchase anything from Boeing. Utilize the brand spanking new a220/a321/b739 you've got and keep taking a220 deliveries to actually replace 717/319. Take a write off on the 717s. layoffs happen? inevitably business decision, advertise customer safety by using a220/a321 against any 737MAX campaign to bring flyers in (dirty yes, but desperate times will bring those kind of fights)

1 - Appears cheaper for sure but shady and might take a public image hit.
2 - Appears more expensive...but won't cost delta any public image issues. inline with deltas current public perception.

what do you all think?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:22 am

dtwpilot225 wrote:
I hope delta uses this max program to get more airbus planes


What would the Max have to do with that? If Delta wants more A320neo then Airbus will be happy to build them.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:25 am

randomdude83 wrote:
Based on everything i'm reading, I feel that Delta's actual choices are the following:

1-Make a deal with Boeing, trade 717 for 737Max, if inevitable layoffs happen...blame it on Covid and defend your 717 trade by bringing up the 2023 required modification + covid and that Boeing threw a 737MAX Deal as icing on the cake. Also that delta has a 737 base and they are 'saving costs' by eliminating a type and not out laying off people while buying brand new un safe planes (you know it'll be thrown around like that by media/twitter public, lets not debate it no matter how much Boeing/faa proves other wise)

2- Don't purchase anything from Boeing. Utilize the brand spanking new a220/a321/b739 you've got and keep taking a220 deliveries to actually replace 717/319. Take a write off on the 717s. layoffs happen? inevitably business decision, advertise customer safety by using a220/a321 against any 737MAX campaign to bring flyers in (dirty yes, but desperate times will bring those kind of fights)

1 - Appears cheaper for sure but shady and might take a public image hit.
2 - Appears more expensive...but won't cost delta any public image issues. inline with deltas current public perception.

what do you all think?


I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.
 
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75driver
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:35 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
Based on everything i'm reading, I feel that Delta's actual choices are the following:

1-Make a deal with Boeing, trade 717 for 737Max, if inevitable layoffs happen...blame it on Covid and defend your 717 trade by bringing up the 2023 required modification + covid and that Boeing threw a 737MAX Deal as icing on the cake. Also that delta has a 737 base and they are 'saving costs' by eliminating a type and not out laying off people while buying brand new un safe planes (you know it'll be thrown around like that by media/twitter public, lets not debate it no matter how much Boeing/faa proves other wise)

2- Don't purchase anything from Boeing. Utilize the brand spanking new a220/a321/b739 you've got and keep taking a220 deliveries to actually replace 717/319. Take a write off on the 717s. layoffs happen? inevitably business decision, advertise customer safety by using a220/a321 against any 737MAX campaign to bring flyers in (dirty yes, but desperate times will bring those kind of fights)

1 - Appears cheaper for sure but shady and might take a public image hit.
2 - Appears more expensive...but won't cost delta any public image issues. inline with deltas current public perception.

what do you all think?


I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.


No kidding, right? Pretty ill advised to be slamming Boeing in the US with some advertising campaign. Sheesh...

The a220’s are a big part of the future and being built largely in Alabama fits perfect. I wonder how many hard feelings are left from Boeing’s legal action against the a220 though? Business is business but that was a very ugly relationship strain and lots of hard feelings within Delta.
 
Lootess
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:29 am

75driver wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
Based on everything i'm reading, I feel that Delta's actual choices are the following:

1-Make a deal with Boeing, trade 717 for 737Max, if inevitable layoffs happen...blame it on Covid and defend your 717 trade by bringing up the 2023 required modification + covid and that Boeing threw a 737MAX Deal as icing on the cake. Also that delta has a 737 base and they are 'saving costs' by eliminating a type and not out laying off people while buying brand new un safe planes (you know it'll be thrown around like that by media/twitter public, lets not debate it no matter how much Boeing/faa proves other wise)

2- Don't purchase anything from Boeing. Utilize the brand spanking new a220/a321/b739 you've got and keep taking a220 deliveries to actually replace 717/319. Take a write off on the 717s. layoffs happen? inevitably business decision, advertise customer safety by using a220/a321 against any 737MAX campaign to bring flyers in (dirty yes, but desperate times will bring those kind of fights)

1 - Appears cheaper for sure but shady and might take a public image hit.
2 - Appears more expensive...but won't cost delta any public image issues. inline with deltas current public perception.

what do you all think?


I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.


No kidding, right? Pretty ill advised to be slamming Boeing in the US with some advertising campaign. Sheesh...

The a220’s are a big part of the future and being built largely in Alabama fits perfect. I wonder how many hard feelings are left from Boeing’s legal action against the a220 though? Business is business but that was a very ugly relationship strain and lots of hard feelings within Delta.


0 beef, said by Ed himself. Was adamant about being an NMA launch customer.
 
Sokes
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:48 am

I doubt that Boeing can make a good offer for the Max. The model has huge losses, and as Boeing is concerned about planes sold below cost, Boeing will have to charge quite high for future Maxes.
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scbriml
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:33 am

Revelation wrote:
Boy, Reuters is busy, they're also saying Boeing is targeting Alaska and Ryanair:

https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26U08A


One would imagine Boeing is busy trying to sell white-tail MAXes to anyone.
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Opus99
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:05 am

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Boy, Reuters is busy, they're also saying Boeing is targeting Alaska and Ryanair:

https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26U08A


One would imagine Boeing is busy trying to sell white-tail MAXes to anyone.

Yup. These are the ones who seem to be picking up their calls at the moment
 
dougbr2006
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:06 pm

I think personally an order for the MAX now would show very low ethics of the company.

With the very high number of announced layoffs / job cuts would it be good timing to be buying new frames for the fleet. Highly unethical really.

Then writing off still useable and quite economic aircraft (assets) until at least the upturn in trade is better.

As also mentioned in other posts they still have a lot of Airbus frames to come so why get the MAX just because Boeing is probably going to have to give them away at low prices.

Over 60 white tails are at least available if not more, so yes Boeing are desperate to get them sold even at break even.

Delta would go down personally in my opinion if they take the MAX now after announcing such large job cuts, and in any case where would the money come from to buy such frames. I think that is the major problem for any airline being offered the MAX even if it is at such a low prices.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:09 pm

dougbr2006 wrote:
I think personally an order for the MAX now would show very low ethics of the company.

With the very high number of announced layoffs / job cuts would it be good timing to be buying new frames for the fleet. Highly unethical really.

Then writing off still useable and quite economic aircraft (assets) until at least the upturn in trade is better.

As also mentioned in other posts they still have a lot of Airbus frames to come so why get the MAX just because Boeing is probably going to have to give them away at low prices.

Over 60 white tails are at least available if not more, so yes Boeing are desperate to get them sold even at break even.

Delta would go down personally in my opinion if they take the MAX now after announcing such large job cuts, and in any case where would the money come from to buy such frames. I think that is the major problem for any airline being offered the MAX even if it is at such a low prices.

I think they’ll be leased like the 717s no? not outright bought. I’m happy to be corrected
 
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Revelation
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Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:24 pm

Opus99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Boy, Reuters is busy, they're also saying Boeing is targeting Alaska and Ryanair:

https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26U08A


One would imagine Boeing is busy trying to sell white-tail MAXes to anyone.

Yup. These are the ones who seem to be picking up their calls at the moment

Right, but is that newsworthy? That's why I suggested Reuters was being excessively busy.

Of course Boeing wants 737 orders, of course their biggest customers past and present will answer the phone if for no other reason than to gather "business intelligence". It'd be very helpful for DL to know what kinds of offers Boeing is making and to see if Boeing can get CFM to change its position on allowing DL to service LEAP in its MRO.
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kjs607
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 pm

It would be an awful shame to see their entire 717 fleet go back to Boeing, who I imagine will probably scrap the majority of the fleet for parts to supply Hawaiian and Qantas. That being said, Volotea has been sating its phasing them out for about 5 years and very few units have actually been returned, with many still looking good. With a presumably far lower ownership cost than the A319's, will we see them stick around longer?
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:50 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
I hope delta uses this max program to get more airbus planes


What would the Max have to do with that? If Delta wants more A320neo then Airbus will be happy to build them.


Negotiation 101. Tell the public you are interested in a plane that isn’t even certified and has a horrible record, in order to get airbus to lower their prices so you order from them and not Boeing.
I really hope delta is part of a 767 plus or 787 797 but they have no need to order the max right now, especially since it will require additional training of its 737 crews that the 321 neo and 320 neo do not
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
I hope delta uses this max program to get more airbus planes


What would the Max have to do with that? If Delta wants more A320neo then Airbus will be happy to build them.


Negotiation 101. Tell the public you are interested in a plane that isn’t even certified and has a horrible record, in order to get airbus to lower their prices so you order from them and not Boeing.
I really hope delta is part of a 767 plus or 787 797 but they have no need to order the max right now, especially since it will require additional training of its 737 crews that the 321 neo and 320 neo do not


Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.
 
airboeingbus
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm

Wouldn't be surprised to see Airbus make on offer to Delta. Delta is in negotiations with airbus to defer deliveries due to the pandemic. Airbus could agree to rewrite the delivery contract for existing orders (pushing them back) in exchange for a new A320N order.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:12 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
I really hope delta is part of a 767 plus or 787 797 but they have no need to order the max right now, especially since it will require additional training of its 737 crews that the 321 neo and 320 neo do not

That's really not a show stopper. Pilots need sim checks every six months anyway. The existing 737NG pilots could all have the MAX training tacked on to their next sim check. It's a one-time thing.

The actual show stopper is that DL like all airlines is in a crisis right now.
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seanpmassey
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:29 pm

I’m trying to understand what an order of white-tail MAXes would accomplish for Delta right now? The plane isn’t certified (and AFAIK, there is no ETA on when it could return to service), and I don’t see what value the type would add to Delta’s fleet right now. And while this could be an opportunistic pickup, why would Delta buy a new type that they can’t service in-house when there will likely be a lot of opportunistic buys for their existing fleet types on the secondary markets or new A32XNs from companies that are cancelling their in-production orders?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:44 pm

seanpmassey wrote:
I’m trying to understand what an order of white-tail MAXes would accomplish for Delta right now? The plane isn’t certified (and AFAIK, there is no ETA on when it could return to service), and I don’t see what value the type would add to Delta’s fleet right now. And while this could be an opportunistic pickup, why would Delta buy a new type that they can’t service in-house when there will likely be a lot of opportunistic buys for their existing fleet types on the secondary markets or new A32XNs from companies that are cancelling their in-production orders?

EASA recently suggested an ETA for MAX RTS is mid November, so that is not a factor.

But yeah, the last thing DL needs right now is more airplanes.

I had forgot that DL is till taking A32Oceo till I looked at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438095&p=22459321#p22459321 -- they still have approximately two dozen more to take, then at some point their order for 100 A320neo kicks in too.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
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DL_Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:04 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.


TWA ran a thinly veiled advertising campaign while the DC-10 was grounded in 1979.

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From: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bVunpAtOqIQ/WllF2V9F4EI/AAAAAAAA2Jc/xtGAruxpm4w21nO9lt8qu6WNPBTIr6htQCLcBGAs/s1600/TWA%2BTimetable%2BOctober%2B1980.jpg
Last edited by DL_Mech on Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:07 pm

seanpmassey wrote:
I’m trying to understand what an order of white-tail MAXes would accomplish for Delta right now? The plane isn’t certified (and AFAIK, there is no ETA on when it could return to service), and I don’t see what value the type would add to Delta’s fleet right now. And while this could be an opportunistic pickup, why would Delta buy a new type that they can’t service in-house when there will likely be a lot of opportunistic buys for their existing fleet types on the secondary markets or new A32XNs from companies that are cancelling their in-production orders?


It's going to be certified.

They may order them - Boeing would a little hope, and avoid writing down distressed assets (the clock is ticking). That doesn't mean DL would take delivery right away. There IS a price at which this will be attractive to DL - we just don't know what that is nor if Boeing could live with it.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
There IS a price at which this will be attractive to DL - we just don't know what that is nor if Boeing could live with it.

It doesn't seem it's all in Boeing's court, it seems CFM would also need to make a big concession.
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1337Delta764
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:26 pm

DL_Mech wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.


TWA ran a thinly veiled advertising campaign while the DC-10 was grounded in 1979.


Different era, and all American companies. Such a campaign would generate a lot of negative press and could further harm DL's relationship with Boeing. Boeing would not take such a campaign lightly, and such statements might be borderline defamatory. Defamation wasn't taken as seriously back then as it is now.
 
catdaddy63
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:38 pm

This could be a nice win for DL, they are probably still heavy on aircraft so there is a way this makes perfect sense. Planspotters shows 91 717 in DL's inventory, swap the 91 for 40 7M8. Boeing capital; could likely provide lease terms that would be quite advantageous to DL's cash flow. There would certainly be a maintenance honeymoon with the MAX, and if CFM allows DL to do the overhauls on the Leap engines even better!
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
But yeah, the last thing DL needs right now is more airplanes.

This is assuming the trade is for 737 whitetails now.

I lost track of this thread for a few weeks, please forgive me if this has been covered, but I thought one of the scenarios was that Boeing would let Delta out of the lease on the 717 now for a firm commitment to the purchase of 737 Max aircraft in 5 years or so. Delta gets the cash-flow of not paying on the lease now, Boeing gets the confidence boost of a blue-chip company re-starting their sales program for the Max.

Did I miss that scenario getting debunked?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:08 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Revelation wrote:
But yeah, the last thing DL needs right now is more airplanes.

This is assuming the trade is for 737 whitetails now.

I lost track of this thread for a few weeks, please forgive me if this has been covered, but I thought one of the scenarios was that Boeing would let Delta out of the lease on the 717 now for a firm commitment to the purchase of 737 Max aircraft in 5 years or so. Delta gets the cash-flow of not paying on the lease now, Boeing gets the confidence boost of a blue-chip company re-starting their sales program for the Max.

Did I miss that scenario getting debunked?

#453 above has the link saying the recent discussion is about the 40 white tails, yet the 717 trade in thing may also still be in play, who knows?

DL has advanced the 717 retirement date to 2025 and it's not clear if the existing fleet and/or commitments can cover the shortfall or not.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
There IS a price at which this will be attractive to DL - we just don't know what that is nor if Boeing could live with it.

It doesn't seem it's all in Boeing's court, it seems CFM would also need to make a big concession.

Agreed. At this point it could be Pratt&Airbus vs. CFM/Boeing.

The maintenance will determine a lot.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:
I’m trying to understand what an order of white-tail MAXes would accomplish for Delta right now? The plane isn’t certified (and AFAIK, there is no ETA on when it could return to service), and I don’t see what value the type would add to Delta’s fleet right now. And while this could be an opportunistic pickup, why would Delta buy a new type that they can’t service in-house when there will likely be a lot of opportunistic buys for their existing fleet types on the secondary markets or new A32XNs from companies that are cancelling their in-production orders?

EASA recently suggested an ETA for MAX RTS is mid November, so that is not a factor.

But yeah, the last thing DL needs right now is more airplanes.

I had forgot that DL is till taking A32Oceo till I looked at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438095&p=22459321#p22459321 -- they still have approximately two dozen more to take, then at some point their order for 100 A320neo kicks in too.


I hadn’t seen that RTS was potentially slated for mid-November.

But even then, it’s a rumor that doesn’t make sense. Delta has a lot of narrow bodies that aren’t being utilized right now, and it has more on order to cover their pre-pandemic traffic and growth projections. So picking up 40 new narrowbodies and inducting them into the fleet right now doesn’t make sense, especially since they have so much capacity on order.

I would find this rumor a lot more credible if it was returning the 717s early for the 767X.

Are any details of the 717 leases public?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:46 pm

seanpmassey wrote:
Revelation wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:
I’m trying to understand what an order of white-tail MAXes would accomplish for Delta right now? The plane isn’t certified (and AFAIK, there is no ETA on when it could return to service), and I don’t see what value the type would add to Delta’s fleet right now. And while this could be an opportunistic pickup, why would Delta buy a new type that they can’t service in-house when there will likely be a lot of opportunistic buys for their existing fleet types on the secondary markets or new A32XNs from companies that are cancelling their in-production orders?

EASA recently suggested an ETA for MAX RTS is mid November, so that is not a factor.

But yeah, the last thing DL needs right now is more airplanes.

I had forgot that DL is till taking A32Oceo till I looked at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438095&p=22459321#p22459321 -- they still have approximately two dozen more to take, then at some point their order for 100 A320neo kicks in too.


I hadn’t seen that RTS was potentially slated for mid-November.

But even then, it’s a rumor that doesn’t make sense. Delta has a lot of narrow bodies that aren’t being utilized right now, and it has more on order to cover their pre-pandemic traffic and growth projections. So picking up 40 new narrowbodies and inducting them into the fleet right now doesn’t make sense, especially since they have so much capacity on order.

I would find this rumor a lot more credible if it was returning the 717s early for the 767X.

Are any details of the 717 leases public?


It’s not like DL would induct those aircraft immediately. Likely summer 2021.

Also not sure why a 767X rumor would be more credible. There is no evidence that is actually happen and, further, launching a new aircraft right now seems to be pointless.
 
smartplane
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.

In the current COVID World, only the OEM's and their strategic partners are offering finance on new aircraft deals. Add the word MAX to the equation, and 100% certainty Boeing Capital will be financing, lease or purchase.

For DL, a low cost MAX deal, that provides a plane which can be used and abused with no financial penalty on shorter routes, has multiple exit points, and removes 717 commitments at the same time would be attractive, if they see the need, and can handle the internal PR.

An Airbus deferral deal on existing orders may specifically preclude other purchases without penalty, which DL would likely want Boeing to absorb.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:52 am

smartplane wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.

In the current COVID World, only the OEM's and their strategic partners are offering finance on new aircraft deals. Add the word MAX to the equation, and 100% certainty Boeing Capital will be financing, lease or purchase.

For DL, a low cost MAX deal, that provides a plane which can be used and abused with no financial penalty on shorter routes, has multiple exit points, and removes 717 commitments at the same time would be attractive, if they see the need, and can handle the internal PR.

An Airbus deferral deal on existing orders may specifically preclude other purchases without penalty, which DL would likely want Boeing to absorb.


There is plenty of new airplane financing available and none of it is coming from the OEMs. Both Airbus and Boeing have substantial cash flow problems and will not be financing a big order for Delta.
 
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75driver
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:44 am

sxf24 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.

In the current COVID World, only the OEM's and their strategic partners are offering finance on new aircraft deals. Add the word MAX to the equation, and 100% certainty Boeing Capital will be financing, lease or purchase.

For DL, a low cost MAX deal, that provides a plane which can be used and abused with no financial penalty on shorter routes, has multiple exit points, and removes 717 commitments at the same time would be attractive, if they see the need, and can handle the internal PR.

An Airbus deferral deal on existing orders may specifically preclude other purchases without penalty, which DL would likely want Boeing to absorb.


There is plenty of new airplane financing available and none of it is coming from the OEMs. Both Airbus and Boeing have substantial cash flow problems and will not be financing a big order for Delta.


One of my recent investor newsletters mentioned the increased volatility of airline financing but it didn’t specify equipment. Just a general paragraph noting the increased risk factor and pressure on the industry was more alarming than normal. It was either Vanguard, JP Morgan or The Fool as those are the only ones I get. I’m sure there is some financing available but I’d be surprised if there was an abundance. At least it would be collateralized but still a big risk for a non-manufacturing lender. It’s not like a bank (or some other financial institution) has a way of disposing big jets. B or A makes the most sense as the originator of financing.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:44 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

What would the Max have to do with that? If Delta wants more A320neo then Airbus will be happy to build them.


Negotiation 101. Tell the public you are interested in a plane that isn’t even certified and has a horrible record, in order to get airbus to lower their prices so you order from them and not Boeing.
I really hope delta is part of a 767 plus or 787 797 but they have no need to order the max right now, especially since it will require additional training of its 737 crews that the 321 neo and 320 neo do not


Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.


https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 0-10-Q.pdf
Reference page 45 of the Q2 sec filings

Not to mention In addition to the 100-A321Neo options you mentioned. Delta also has 50 options for the A220-300.

And my apologies for being lazy to look up the SEC filing or press release, but the 10 deferred A359's were allowed to be substitute other Airbus aircraft models which could also be used to simplify the fleet.

On another forum someone pointed out the fact that with Delta negotiating to defer Airbus aircraft. How would a company Airbus feel if Delta purchased AC from Boeing while asking to defer orders from Airbus?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:50 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:

Negotiation 101. Tell the public you are interested in a plane that isn’t even certified and has a horrible record, in order to get airbus to lower their prices so you order from them and not Boeing.
I really hope delta is part of a 767 plus or 787 797 but they have no need to order the max right now, especially since it will require additional training of its 737 crews that the 321 neo and 320 neo do not


Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.


https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 0-10-Q.pdf
Reference page 45 of the Q2 sec filings

Not to mention In addition to the 100-A321Neo options you mentioned. Delta also has 50 options for the A220-300.

And my apologies for being lazy to look up the SEC filing or press release, but the 10 deferred A359's were allowed to be substitute other Airbus aircraft models which could also be used to simplify the fleet.

On another forum someone pointed out the fact that with Delta negotiating to defer Airbus aircraft. How would a company Airbus feel if Delta purchased AC from Boeing while asking to defer orders from Airbus?


I doubt DL is worried how Airbus would “feel” - either way, Airbus understands how business works. If Airbus can’t help DL deal with the 717 leases, Boeing probably will. If Airbus doesn’t want it’s feelings hurt by that, it has to make the deal. I also think Airbus understands DL has some leverage here, particularly with regards to the A330neo especially with the AirAsia X situation. DL could easily get A321neos pushed back (I suspect sufficient demand still for Airbus to agree to that) if DL keeps the A330s coming.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:30 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:

Negotiation 101. Tell the public you are interested in a plane that isn’t even certified and has a horrible record, in order to get airbus to lower their prices so you order from them and not Boeing.
I really hope delta is part of a 767 plus or 787 797 but they have no need to order the max right now, especially since it will require additional training of its 737 crews that the 321 neo and 320 neo do not


Delta has 100 options for A320neo. That means a price has already been set. No need to play games like you suggest. If Delta wants to retire the 717 early in 2025 then an agreement must be reached with Boeing Capital. That's why the Max is a wildcard. Either a deal must be made or Delta will be paying leases on retired 717's sitting in storage.


https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 0-10-Q.pdf
Reference page 45 of the Q2 sec filings

Not to mention In addition to the 100-A321Neo options you mentioned. Delta also has 50 options for the A220-300.

And my apologies for being lazy to look up the SEC filing or press release, but the 10 deferred A359's were allowed to be substitute other Airbus aircraft models which could also be used to simplify the fleet.

On another forum someone pointed out the fact that with Delta negotiating to defer Airbus aircraft. How would a company Airbus feel if Delta purchased AC from Boeing while asking to defer orders from Airbus?


I have a hard time seeing any way Airbus will pay off the 717 leases and give a good deal on new planes. What's in it for them? The A320neo order book is doing fine as it is. And Delta can't just cancel the A330neo or A350 orders without stiff penalties so Airbus wouldn't bargain on that either. I don't think they're willing to take a loss just to keep an order away from Boeing.

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