1337Delta764 wrote:

DL_Mech wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.

TWA ran a thinly veiled advertising campaign while the DC-10 was grounded in 1979.

Such a campaign would generate a lot of negative press and could further harm DL's relationship with Boeing. Boeing would not take such a campaign lightly, and such statements might be borderline defamatory. Defamation wasn't taken as seriously back then as it is now.

There’s nothing defamatory in the TWA adverts and DL could simply say “Fly Delta, the only US major that doesn’t use MAX”. Nothing defamatory, just a simple statement of fact.

scbriml wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

DL_Mech wrote:

There’s nothing defamatory in the TWA adverts and DL could simply say “Fly Delta, the only US major that doesn’t use MAX”. Nothing defamatory, just a simple statement of fact.

But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.

1337Delta764 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.

No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.

Good article here regarding the Max advertising safety discussion:
https://slate.com/technology/2020/05/av ... afety.html

scbriml wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.

No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.

Yes they would; they would be implying that the 737 MAX is unsafe after being cleared, which is is a perfectly valid grounds for a defamation suit.

JayinKitsap wrote:

VictorKilo wrote:

We’ve been focused on the swap for Max white tails, but does either Boeing or Delta have a large number of 738/9 or A320Ceo frames coming off of lease or retuned directly to them from other airlines? There’s been discussion of the large number of off lease frames in the Production Cuts thread, although it’s unclear to me how many were leased directly from Boeing or Airbus rather than from third parties. Delta may find that a swap of off lease 738 or 320 for 717 or neo deferments May make more sense than a swap for the Max.

There are a lot of planes of all stripes looking for new homes. For DL's 717's some are owned but like 3/4 are on lease from Boeing for a number of more years. Boeing could forgive some or all of these lease payments as a trade in on the new planes. What makes this attractive to DL is better cash flow for now and new planes to offset the retired 717's out a few years.

But we are not privy to any dealing so it is unknown if this will come to pass.

We've been discussing how about 2,000 aircraft will be looking for a new home in 2021 in the production chicken thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1451221&p=22454405

These are aircraft owned by a bunch of entities: ALC, AerCap, Norwegian capital, AirCastle, airlines, Boeing (MAX) and Airbus. This is the most extreame buyers market of my lifetime and that includes the two oil crisis, the 1990s downturn, 9/11, and GFC.

Think of this like buying a used home. You might care a little on who you buy it from, but more you care about the maintenance history (how old the furnace/AC) and having an inspection done (roof, termites, water damage foundation). For aircraft, since any aircraft worth buying now is going to cost over $10 million, you have a team go over the paper and another team the aircraft to value it, not one handyman doing a $400 inspection but rather about $25k of labor to determine if an aircraft is worth buying and how much might be needed.

Often a purchase is conditional on the cost of a C or D check.

DL is one of the most sophisticated buyers of used aircraft (and new). The could buy new MAX (e.g., say the -9 with -10 gear), NEO, A220, or used 738, A320/321.

Delta has 15+ months to decide what to buy.

Lightsaber

JayinKitsap wrote:
There are a lot of planes of all stripes looking for new homes. For DL's 717's some are owned but like 3/4 are on lease from Boeing for a number of more years. Boeing could forgive some or all of these lease payments as a trade in on the new planes. What makes this attractive to DL is better cash flow for now and new planes to offset the retired 717's out a few years.

This! Still think that DL getting some MAXes could be a win-win for both DL and Boeing. If Boeing does make an attractive offer regarding DL 717 (early lease termination, lease rate reduction) in return for DL taking some MAX planes later on I could see that end up happing. DL AFAIK has no planes on order that fall in the size of the 738 and therefore at one point or another will have a need for a plane of that size. DL will buy whatever makes financial sense for them new or used, as that is the only way of running a airline successfully. If the MAX makes sense they go for it, but as other members have pointed out with so many used aircraft on the market IMO DL will go for them as planes of desperate lessors or birds of airlines eventually ending up in bankruptcy will be even cheaper.

I don't think customer preference would be an issue as the MAX sage has been replaced with the C19 sage. More customers currently care about catching C19 on a plane or that some of the restrictions are making traveling unpleasant (like no food) than on what plane they end up flying. This showcases the short attention span that general customers have and I don't think that the MAX will become a major news story again. Even the eventual MAY RTS news story might be buried by C19 or something related to the election or DJT.

If they continue to fly with open seats due to Covid, an a/c larger than the 717 operating the 717 route would be able to maintain or increase capacity while still leaving the middle seat open.
I think how they replace the 717 is the key, one for one or capacity upgrade.

lightsaber wrote:

WN732 wrote:

MetsNomad wrote:

According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?

With the 737 still being an important player in their fleet, it is logical that eventually, they will order the MAX. The airline industry needs to vastly recover before we will see any major orders though. At least that's my opinion. They are still taking Airbus deliveries but again those were placed quite a while back.

For the right price, DL should order. The large 738 and 739ER fleets make this an easy addition. The tough negotiation will be the engine overhauls. Currently DL has rights for the BR700 (717 engine, to my knowledge never rally used, the CFM-56 (-5 and -7 for the A320 and 737NG), CF6, Trent 1000/7000/Xwb (as part of the A330NEO/A350 widebody order), Pratt GTFs (PW1100G, PW1500G, and I believe rights to the PW1200G/1700G/1900G, but the last bit I haven't seen convincing evidence either way).

It is up to CFM/GE to convince DL for the MAX. It is an easy addition, but DL will hold their ground.

Lightsaber

We also still work on the PW4000( Delta and Contract), PW2000 ( Delta and Contract), and CF34( technically all contract)

For the LEAP I heard CFM was willing to give us the overhaul rights, but not the repair capability. The overhaul rights just allow a shop to disassemble and reassemble the engine. The repair rights allow a shop to rework the parts. This is where the real money is made. CFM wanted Delta to send all the worn parts to them to be reworked and they get the profit of the repair. Another drawback is it makes the turn time of the whole engine more dependent on an outside vendor. Delta has been working very hard on bringing more parts in house to gain that cost advantage and control the flow better.

Capricorn wrote:

DL AFAIK has no planes on order that fall in the size of the 738 and therefore at one point or another will have a need for a plane of that size.

Why is it so important for Delta to have an aircraft with 160 seats? Delta basically replaced 150 seat MD88 and MD90's with 180 seat 739's and 190 seat 321's.

ehaase wrote:

Capricorn wrote:

DL AFAIK has no planes on order that fall in the size of the 738 and therefore at one point or another will have a need for a plane of that size.

Why is it so important for Delta to have an aircraft with 160 seats? Delta basically replaced 150 seat MD88 and MD90's with 180 seat 739's and 190 seat 321's.

Delta eventually need something new around that size. They are not going to operate with a 50 seat gap between 130 seat A223/A319s and 180 seat 739s.

If Airbus are willing to launch the A220-500, I could see Delta with a very respectable order. There’s 60 A320s all getting up there in age, and the nearly 80 738s are mostly 1998-2002 builds. There are 2 from 2010 and 4 ex-GOL built in 2012-14. I’d expect 738M over any other Max family member.

Dalmd88 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

WN732 wrote:

With the 737 still being an important player in their fleet, it is logical that eventually, they will order the MAX. The airline industry needs to vastly recover before we will see any major orders though. At least that's my opinion. They are still taking Airbus deliveries but again those were placed quite a while back.

For the right price, DL should order. The large 738 and 739ER fleets make this an easy addition. The tough negotiation will be the engine overhauls. Currently DL has rights for the BR700 (717 engine, to my knowledge never rally used, the CFM-56 (-5 and -7 for the A320 and 737NG), CF6, Trent 1000/7000/Xwb (as part of the A330NEO/A350 widebody order), Pratt GTFs (PW1100G, PW1500G, and I believe rights to the PW1200G/1700G/1900G, but the last bit I haven't seen convincing evidence either way).

It is up to CFM/GE to convince DL for the MAX. It is an easy addition, but DL will hold their ground.

Lightsaber

We also still work on the PW4000( Delta and Contract), PW2000 ( Delta and Contract), and CF34( technically all contract)

For the LEAP I heard CFM was willing to give us the overhaul rights, but not the repair capability. The overhaul rights just allow a shop to disassemble and reassemble the engine. The repair rights allow a shop to rework the parts. This is where the real money is made. CFM wanted Delta to send all the worn parts to them to be reworked and they get the profit of the repair. Another drawback is it makes the turn time of the whole engine more dependent on an outside vendor. Delta has been working very hard on bringing more parts in house to gain that cost advantage and control the flow better.

The repair capability takes money from CFM, so I'm not surprised. I would be surprised if DL accepted that offer. IMHO, there is no way negotiations are final.

That process that CFM requested also requires more spare parts as the time lag is too long. Aaaagh.... There is just too much profit in DL repairing parts. I believe that is a make or break condition for DL.

As to the other engines, neat, but not effecting DL's purchase decisions near term.

Lightsaber

1337Delta764 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.

No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.

Yes they would; they would be implying that the 737 MAX is unsafe after being cleared, which is is a perfectly valid grounds for a defamation suit.

More importantly, it would be self-destructive of and airline to sell the idea that any air travel is unsafe to an unsettled consumer base.

Regardless of their actual record of safety, airplanes freak people out. No sane airline will go around telling people that any modem airliner is unsafe.

NameOmitted wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.

Yes they would; they would be implying that the 737 MAX is unsafe after being cleared, which is is a perfectly valid grounds for a defamation suit.

More importantly, it would be self-destructive of and airline to sell the idea that any air travel is unsafe to an unsettled consumer base.

Regardless of their actual record of safety, airplanes freak people out. No sane airline will go around telling people that any modem airliner is unsafe.

Airlines also don’t do it because there are no such thing as a crash proof aircraft. You don’t want to be the one touting how you have no MAXes then suddenly you unfortunately lose a A32X or A220 with no survivors...


The industry as a whole sees insinuation about the safety of aircraft as a no go area. That’s why Airbus’s “4 engines 4 long haul” was dropped like a hot potato when it faced near universal negative reaction in the industry, including internally at Airbus (then picked up by VS, although never really used in print or media).

DL was probably trying to get out of B717 leases today for Maxes tomorrow to replace B737NG's. Boeing probably wasn't cutting their B717 leases.
I think that they would be better off running the smaller leased B717's hard and saving the owned fleet and the fleet that they could get lessors to make concessions on.

IIRC, it’s been shared in these forums that the Delta 717 leases run through 2031. How many of the aircraft expirations last to that point, I’m not sure, but this would be a lot for Boeing to eat. Which begs the question, does Boeing really want to terminate this revenue stream (one likely unable to be replicated) if the commitment in return is only 40ish heavily discounted 737-8 MAX’s? Talk about holding the bag.

sxf24 wrote:

smartplane wrote:

In the current COVID World, only the OEM's and their strategic partners are offering finance on new aircraft deals. Add the word MAX to the equation, and 100% certainty Boeing Capital will be financing, lease or purchase.

For DL, a low cost MAX deal, that provides a plane which can be used and abused with no financial penalty on shorter routes, has multiple exit points, and removes 717 commitments at the same time would be attractive, if they see the need, and can handle the internal PR.

An Airbus deferral deal on existing orders may specifically preclude other purchases without penalty, which DL would likely want Boeing to absorb.

There is plenty of new airplane financing available and none of it is coming from the OEMs. Both Airbus and Boeing have substantial cash flow problems and will not be financing a big order for Delta.

Agree, no problem for blue chip DL to source competitive new aircraft funding. But they would be among the elite of the elite.

For others, while funding may be available, is it on terms acceptable to customers? The creative funding that brought us to over production has gone, like 90-110% of value, tax effective loans and leases under-pinned by growth, and lending against conditional future retrospective credits.

Now we have financiers requiring assignment of customer credits, to make bulk principal reductions (which OEM's discount substantially when not used to fund further orders), whereas previously a proportion of customer credits could potentially be used to acquire a share in another aircraft.

If you exclude enforced rollovers, locked in pre and post-shipment finance, and finance linked with cancelled orders / defaults, it's a struggle to find finance on sensible commercial terms, without the air frame and engine OEM's (or their strategic partners) having a hand in the background providing lender comfort in the form of a buyback, guarantee or both.

[quote="DeltaMD95"]
IIRC, it’s been shared in these forums that the Delta 717 leases run through 2031. How many of the aircraft expirations last to that point, I’m not sure, but this would be a lot for Boeing to eat. Which begs the question, does Boeing really want to terminate this revenue stream (one likely unable to be replicated) if the commitment in return is only 40ish heavily discounted 737-8 MAX’s? Talk about holding the bag.[/quote]

Good point.
I assume it also depends how high lease rates are.
That apart I don't see how retiring B717s help the sale of Maxs. Different seat capacity.
It may however help Airbus selling more A220s.

Do not discuss other users discuss the topic. This is your warning.

Also, moderators do not moderate facts. Start posting links or make it clear this is your opinion.

Delta is delaying $5 billion in aircraft deliveries until after 2022, including about $2 billion in planes that were scheduled to be handed over this year.
Delta is also planning to retire 400 aircraft by 2025, including 200 this year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -to-airbus

Opting for 40 whitetail MAX planes for "immediate" delivery (as this topic sugges) is, IMHO, just ridiculous and not happening.

This thread was started nearly 6 months ago, during the early fallout from COVID, when most "experts" predicted traffic levels would return to 2019 levels by late summer.

Let's look at the facts rationally: Last year, DL had planned on operating the 717 fleet another 10 years, and intended on upgrading both the cockpit and cabin (allegedly with the same PTV system as the A220). By the beginning of the year, there were credible rumors that DL was concerned about the ROI of such project, especially given swelling labor rates. Problem was, the leases on the lion's share of the 717 matured (expired) rapidly over the next 2.5 years. It made plenty of sense to think that DL would try to work out a deal with Boeing, where it returned the 717 at a much slower pace so that it could maintain its "small narrowbody" numbers with the ALPA and have amble capacity to serve a red hot economy.

Today, DL doesn't need to strike a deal with Boeing -- it can simply return the aircraft. Since Boeing isn't going to be able to rehome those 717 anytime soon (and probably never for most all of them), they would undoubtedly be open to a deal with DL, where DL gets to extend the leases at favorable rates on its terms (then Boeing isn't stuck with the large cost of storing the aircraft). This is most likely what happened... we will find out more in the future.

If given a deal it couldn't refuse, DL may opt to acquire some MAX. But it will have nothing to do with the 717. Pretty good article in the Journal about how airline execs are privately admitting it'll take 5+ years for traffic to recover... I'm baffled at how many users can't accept that, instead thinking that for every plane DL retires, they must have a replacement in the pipeline...

chiad wrote:

Delta is also planning to retire 400 aircraft by 2025, including 200 this year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -to-airbus

Opting for 40 whitetail MAX planes for "immediate" delivery (as this topic sugges) is, IMHO, just ridiculous and not happening.

That makes sense.
Airlines don't have the cash to accept deliveries.
Airbus and Boeing accept later deliveries in exchange for early retirement of old planes.

What will really count when people start flying again is how many aircraft got retired.
If airlines accept new planes now or in one year is rather not so important for the value chain.

RalXWB wrote:

They already have a replacement for the 717....the A220. Looking Forward to Dozens of pages of speculations.

That would me my point too.

To propose to exchange B717s to the MAX for whatever rate/price is easy to accept as a starting point on negotiations between any airline and Boeing. Need to renew fleet versus Boeing's need to shift the MAX would cater for the negotiations and for a deal to be had in some shape or form

However, it is Delta we are speaking about - the airline which is moving to an all Airbus Fleet and that has introduced the A220-300 on this segment. It is more easy to expect DL to shift these B717s and gradually their B737s to more A220/320/321s then go to the MAX.

Do not say it is not going to happen but it looks a bit of a surprise or unlikely rumor.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

This thread was started nearly 6 months ago, during the early fallout from COVID, when most "experts" predicted traffic levels would return to 2019 levels by late summer.

Let's look at the facts rationally: Last year, DL had planned on operating the 717 fleet another 10 years, and intended on upgrading both the cockpit and cabin (allegedly with the same PTV system as the A220). By the beginning of the year, there were credible rumors that DL was concerned about the ROI of such project, especially given swelling labor rates. Problem was, the leases on the lion's share of the 717 matured (expired) rapidly over the next 2.5 years. It made plenty of sense to think that DL would try to work out a deal with Boeing, where it returned the 717 at a much slower pace so that it could maintain its "small narrowbody" numbers with the ALPA and have amble capacity to serve a red hot economy.

Today, DL doesn't need to strike a deal with Boeing -- it can simply return the aircraft. Since Boeing isn't going to be able to rehome those 717 anytime soon (and probably never for most all of them), they would undoubtedly be open to a deal with DL, where DL gets to extend the leases at favorable rates on its terms (then Boeing isn't stuck with the large cost of storing the aircraft). This is most likely what happened... we will find out more in the future.

If given a deal it couldn't refuse, DL may opt to acquire some MAX. But it will have nothing to do with the 717. Pretty good article in the Journal about how airline execs are privately admitting it'll take 5+ years for traffic to recover... I'm baffled at how many users can't accept that, instead thinking that for every plane DL retires, they must have a replacement in the pipeline...

This part is key:

Problem was, the leases on the lion's share of the 717 matured (expired) rapidly over the next 2.5 years.

Delta has already announced retirement of 717 before 2025.
Delta is a solvent buyer, and has all the leverage they might need over airplanes' OEMs, as far as any potential order for new planes is concerned, in the current environment. A would be happy to (re-)speed-up deliveries, B would be VERY happy to sell anything.
If lease expiration does happen within next two-three years, Delta can simply wash its hands off 717 and concentrate on more essential issues.
Now, where does all of this leave Southwest, is a better question. Because original leases (before sub-leases to Delta) were from Boeing to Southwest. Do those expire within next couple of years, as well?

https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?

If I was a betting man.........The Max would look great in Delta colors.

Don't like the 737 and do not trust the 737 MAX. Boeing has tried to run that aircraft well beyond its 50 year old design. Start fresh Boeing, dump the 737 MAX on a low budget airline that does not care.

I seem to recall some discussion about DL looking into the MAX a few months ago. I know they seem to lean towards the A320 family, they do have a significant number of 737 NGs, so I wouldn't be shocked if DL at least considers snagging some of the 3M8 white tails as a start and see where it goes from there.

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

B787oftheworld wrote:

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

I'd suspect they'd improve an existing order slot, but at the same time, I'd be shocked if Boeing doesn't at least make an effort to get DL on the MAX bandwagon.

fpetrutiu wrote:

https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?

I thought Boeing quietly dropped the Max name with the recertification. Isn't it just 737-7/8/9/10 now?

There is a place for the aircraft at DL, I have always stuck with this. Should an order happen I would not be surprised.

FlyingViking wrote:

fpetrutiu wrote:

https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?

I thought Boeing quietly dropped the Max name with the recertification. Isn't it just 737-7/8/9/10 now?

I don't believe Max was on the type rating ever. It is more of a marketing name, like the Dreamliner. They are still using Max for marketing of you look at their website.

kiowa wrote:

Don't like the 737 and do not trust the 737 MAX. Boeing has tried to run that aircraft well beyond its 50 year old design. Start fresh Boeing, dump the 737 MAX on a low budget airline that does not care.

I don't agree with your premise at all - I am happy to get on MAX, both alone and with my family. I have faith in the process and the reviews by the FAA and certifications of other countries that the 737 MAX will be fine. As we often fly Southwest and United, I expect we will be on various MAX aircraft for the next 15 to 20 years.

But taking your statement at face value, would you share what "budget airline" and their passengers deserve to fly on an aircraft that you believe to be unsafe for you? Shouldn't your argument be for a complete grounding and non-return to service (and the demise of Boeing due to liability issues)?

ctrabs0114 wrote:

B787oftheworld wrote:

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

I'd suspect they'd improve an existing order slot, but at the same time, I'd be shocked if Boeing doesn't at least make an effort to get DL on the MAX bandwagon.

I think you’re exactly right, which is why this is pretty much a non-story. DL is doubtless in touch with Boeing and Airbus continually. It’s corporate malpractice not to talk. And it would be equally silly for those conversations not to include all of the aircraft currently on offer. Doubtless DL and Airbus discussed the 380 at some point. That doesn’t mean there was ever serious interest.

B787oftheworld wrote:

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

Boeing built more than 800 737 MAX so far. I can see many of them not going (back) to their original airline. Jet Airways ceased operations, Norwegian is on the brink. Lion Air and the Chinese airlines said before they might not want to fly with them again. Other airlines like VietJet might have over ordered them. American and Air Canada want to delay or cancel some.I am sure if Delta wants say 50 by 31 december 2021 they can easily get them.

MEA-707 wrote:

B787oftheworld wrote:

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

Boeing built more than 800 737 MAX so far. I can see many of them not going (back) to their original airline. Jet Airways ceased operations, Norwegian is on the brink. Lion Air and the Chinese airlines said before they might not want to fly with them again. Other airlines like VietJet might have over ordered them. American and Air Canada want to delay or cancel some.I am sure if Delta wants say 50 by 31 december 2021 they can easily get them.

None of AC’s canceled 737s have been built. AA recently stated that they do not want to defer any Max deliveries because due to the compensation they receive at delivery getting the planes are net cash positive for them. Evidently AA has resolved the financing issues with the MAX they ran into earlier this year.

737-8 to replace the oldest 320 and 737-800 members (20-30 years old for both fleets) isn’t a bad move, and helps clean up the fleet while they and on the simplicity kick.

Haven’t we been through this before? I wish we’d stop doing these DL MAX threads until something is officially announced.

fpetrutiu wrote:

https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?

Bastian has been saying nice things about MAX from the time immediately following grounding. I don't think that is sloppiness on his part, or just remarks to fill interviewer pauses. Example from April 2019:

Delta CEO Ed Bastian has expressed multiple times over the last week how confident he is in Boeing in the aftermath of the two 737 Max crashes.

"I’m confident that Boeing will solve this issue,” Bastian said during a talk at Aviation Week Network’s MRO Americas conference in the Georgia World Congress Center this week. “While we're all troubled by what's happened with the Max, we'll learn from it."

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... ce-in.html

It's just going to come down to price, and how long DL can string out deliveries so cash flow isn't too challenged. Thirty MAX 8 whitetails, and then 70 MAX 10s (with conversion rights) to follow within five years. Perfect.

BNAMealer wrote:

Haven’t we been through this before? I wish we’d stop doing these DL MAX threads until something is officially announced.

Multiple threads

Probably best for other airlines to "prove" the plane first IMO, but depends on aircraft availability if demand sky-rockets amid the recent retirements. Maybe this is a soliciting hint for re-negotiated prices on the A321NEO or new consideration for the XLR.

MEA-707 wrote:

Other airlines like VietJet might have over-ordered them.

Not really, VJ still has its Thai subsidiary which it eyes a fleet of 50 aircraft in the next few years (currently 15), and it also eyes more subsidiaries over Southeast Asia.
If it actually over-ordered, I guess it would cancel some MAX 10 (because VJ already has more than 120 A321neo on order anyway), and in any circumstances, there would be no whitetails from VJ (its order is MAX 200 which DL doesn't really need, and none of the VJ MAX 10 was built)

B787oftheworld wrote:

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

According to the following source Boeing has about 100 white tails at mid November 2020

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/11/15/boeings-737-max-white-tail-problem-will-any-us-air/

Assuming that Boeing take them, what next.

AFAIK, there is no cargo conversion available. Not if this would viable less than 100 available.

If not, would DL do major o/h for 3rd parties or would Boeing.

I understand that Volotea are phasing theirs out, and QF probably would not have the capacity. Quite apart from being located so far away from most likely operators.

bennett123 wrote:

Assuming that Boeing take them, what next.

AFAIK, there is no cargo conversion available. Not if this would viable less than 100 available.

If not, would DL do major o/h for 3rd parties or would Boeing.

I understand that Volotea are phasing theirs out, and QF probably would not have the capacity. Quite apart from being located so far away from most likely operators.

While a few might find other homes (especially the newer ones that are among the last built) at HA or QF most will probably be scrapped. We are talking about planes that are around 20 years old, so Boeing Capital got an acceptable life out of them.

Which raises the question will there be enough flying to make it viable for someone to do major o/h.

This thread is now 7-months-old. DL is not trading the 717 for 737 -- they're returning the 717 as leases mature, and the handful of owned aircraft will be parked in a few years. The ONLY reason this rumor had any credibility was because the 717 leases were rapidly maturing; DL simply couldn't get replacement A220 on property fast enough but didn't want to commit to the 717 long-term, so it may have reached a comprise with Boeing (short term 717 extensions bartered for a 737 MAX order). That no longer matters -- DL has enough surplus capacity to quickly dump the 717.

If DL does indeed acquire some of the white tailed 737, it will have nothing to do with the 717. Please, let this thread die.

As noted in several previous posts Delta is deferring new aircraft deliveries for at least one year. Delta has an excess of aircraft which puts Delta in the position that it does not need to acquire new aircraft. As previously stated in earlier posts the majority of the leases expire on the 717s within the next two and a half years. I am sure that Delta could extend those leases on a month to month basis or have a clause on the lease extensions that allow Delta to give a 30 or 60 day notice that it intendeds to return the aircraft. If Boeing does not agree Delta will return the aircraft. With the exception of Hawaiian Airlines there are not other airlines that may have any interest in the 717. When Delta returns those aircraft they will be flown to the desert and be used as feed stock for any 717s that Delta and Hawaiian may still operate. Other than engines, cockpit instrumentation and electronic equipment there will be little value left on the airframe and scraping them will be a loss on the expense to do so. Delta will not add 737 MAX aircraft. If it does, which I doubt, Delta will wait until the 737 MAX has flown accident and incident free for at least two to three years. Delta would just keep flying the aircraft it does not need to retire while encouraging both Boeing and Airbus to build a suitable new generation replacement.