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MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:55 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I also find the speculation somewhat ridiculous. Not to say it won't happen, but I find it very unlikely for many reasons:

-MAX far to big to replace 717s 1 for 1. Pax want frequency


You might likewise argue that 180-seat 739s and 191-seat A321s are too big to replace 149-seat MD-88s but you would be wrong, year after year, frame after frame. If you haven't been paying attention to Delta fleet moves for the past 11 years, upgauging has been a thing since the CR2/E145 fleet peaked at 500+ in 2009, and a concept to which DL has significantly recommitted with the latest fleet retirement announcements and write-downs: CR2s going away, 717s going away, 763s going away (and nothing but 330neos and 359s on order to replace widebody capacity for DL's most-numerous widebody type).

WN has been upgauging steadily since 2012 with every 738/MAX 8 delivery, whether it has been an incremental frame or a 733/735/73G replacement. Look at the success of ULCCs - low costs win out even with low PRASM. Some airport-pair markets need frequency - I'd cite LGA-ORD as one - but leisure routes may not.

The durable a.net trope that an aircraft replacement needs to be seat-for-seat just doesn't fit the evidence for U.S. carriers.
 
777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:48 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Please show your math. The remaining Airbus narrowbody order does not cover the MD88, MD90, 717, A320, A319, 737-700, and 757 retirements.


Please show your understanding of how Delta operates its fleet.

A large portion of it is variable capacity - low fixed cost, fully depreciated frames that can be parked when they don’t make money and only flown when they can. Yes, the MD88 and MD90 filled this role, and they are retired, but the 757 and 320 fleets are stepping in to the role. They don’t need to be replaced quickly, because they won’t be flying that much - and that’s a feature, not a bug. Maybe if demand comes back stronger they get utilized more and DL runs out of green time on them - but in that scenario DL will have the cash to lease planes to replace them. And when the green time runs out on the 757 and 320 fleets, the 319 and 738 will fill that role, and the cycle moves forward.

If you don’t understand Delta's business model, you won’t understand their fleet replacement strategy. But if you do, you will understand why Delta won’t be taking on AA level debt on a shiny new fleet. It’s not their business model.


Without evidence to back up your claims, it's pure speculation. Just like mine. Your airline has canceled nearly 250 flights for tomorrow. The spin has got to stop. Delta will not be in any position to take Airbus or Boeing planes anytime soon.


What in the world does canceling flights have to do with the fleet?

You completely breezed over the fact that Delta does have enough frames on order plus options to cover the retirements due to covid with a few extra to spare.
 
777Mech
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I also find the speculation somewhat ridiculous. Not to say it won't happen, but I find it very unlikely for many reasons:
-MAX reputation
-MAX far to big to replace 717s 1 for 1. Pax want frequency
-Its another fleet type, Delta has stated repeatedly that they want to have fewer types.
-They competed the MAX against the 320 series already, and the MAX lost. What has changed?
-Airbus won't stand by and watch it happen, they'll compete
-Trump is leaving office, so the "buy American," thing is going by the wayside.
-The 321 is better than the MAX. It was winning in tbe marketplace BEFORE the crashes.
-Delta committing to expend that many resources at this time would be irresponsible.
-GE and CFM have alienated Delta

I mean dl has a huge 737 fleet. Airbus doesn’t have the need to charge the price Boeing is going to go for. It doesn’t make any business sense. Their neo order book is about twice the size of the MAX. For aircrafts like this the price is going to be the key factor and commonality as well.

People think airlines are just here to please your aircraft demands because you like the space in a NEO. People this is a business, a profit maximisation business. If you’re giving me 320neo performance for 12 million dollars off? Are you kidding me?
MAX reputation? Please let’s be serious, then the whole of America won’t fly if it’s max reputation.

Of course DL are looking at the MAX heavily as they should.

Alaska closed a deal with the MAX 9. And some people said “oh! This doesn’t make sense!” How doesn’t it make sense? This is a business before anything else. Let us all remember that.

321 better than the MAX, over ranges they can both cover that is arguable. Neo. Even if, whatever gain you think you’re getting from the “better” 321, the lease price will wipe out that improvement from a DOC point of view.

Delta has over 200 NGS -800s and -900s. You’re giving them a 15% fuel burn break on those jets for 38-40 million.

Till date, the only thing Delta has used to replace their Boeing aircraft is the 321 for the 757 and that’s because I mean what else would you use?

Eventually, Delta will need more aircraft. We can debate when, but if the domestic recovery happens by say May 2024 (I would expect normal summer travel by then), DL will need more aircraft and low cost aircraft. Options:
1. A220. I fully expect DL to negotiate for more.
2. MAX, I would expect a large order with 2022, 2023, and 2024 delivery dates. What I don't know is if -8 or -9 (probably a mix, but as Boeing allows customers to switch, I expect DL to adapt on future market demand). This depends on CFM giving DL engine overhaul and repair rights, of course.
3. Used. I fully expect DL to be an active buyer of used 737NG and CFM powered A320CEOs. Engine overhaul rights, if offered, might even push them into the deluge of V2500 powered CEOs (in particular, out of India).

DL will play everyone off against each other and do this off $$$. With all the other airlines flying MAX, the bad press will be too minimal to discuss.

I'm certain DL execs are starting negotiations. Since they have the strong hand...

Until Boeing sells a few hundred MAX, they will be hungry for orders. They and CFM need to buy into orders and only DL, FR, and IAG are known to myself (for large orders). All three will have to be offered earth moving deals.

So we cannot discount the MAX at DL. It isn't certain, but it is a deal for CFM or Boeing to lose.

Ghad, Delta will be *the* engine shop if CFM capitulates. (I think there is no choice, but not my money or bonus on the line.)

Lightsaber


In all honesty, I think DL and Boeing have a deal lined up, but CFM is still playing hardball. Yet another reason Boeing shot themselves in the foot by going single source on the engines.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I also find the speculation somewhat ridiculous. Not to say it won't happen, but I find it very unlikely for many reasons:

-MAX far to big to replace 717s 1 for 1. Pax want frequency


You might likewise argue that 180-seat 739s and 191-seat A321s are too big to replace 149-seat MD-88s but you would be wrong, year after year, frame after frame. If you haven't been paying attention to Delta fleet moves for the past 11 years, upgauging has been a thing since the CR2/E145 fleet peaked at 500+ in 2009, and a concept to which DL has significantly recommitted with the latest fleet retirement announcements and write-downs: CR2s going away, 717s going away, 763s going away (and nothing but 330neos and 359s on order to replace widebody capacity for DL's most-numerous widebody type).

WN has been upgauging steadily since 2012 with every 738/MAX 8 delivery, whether it has been an incremental frame or a 733/735/73G replacement. Look at the success of ULCCs - low costs win out even with low PRASM. Some airport-pair markets need frequency - I'd cite LGA-ORD as one - but leisure routes may not.

The durable a.net trope that an aircraft replacement needs to be seat-for-seat just doesn't fit the evidence for U.S. carriers.


I agree that airplanes don't have to be replaced on a one for one basis. At the same time, I can acknowledge need for a hundred seater to serve the ATL hub. The 220 is optimized for longer ranges and serves the secondary hubs. The MAX is way too big to provide the necessary frequency.
 
jagraham
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:32 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Hi all

I'm barely 14 years old and am not that experienced into aviation, so please could someone help me and see if I'm right?

I think the 737MAX might be repetitive in their fleet. They have A220s with an average age of 1.2 years, A321s with average age of 2.5 years, 100+ A321neos coming online sometime soon, and barely 5 year old 737-900ERs. Plus, they have no imminent retirement date for A319s, A320s, 737-800s, or 757-200/300s. Since one would assume most of those aircraft are staying around, I don't really see the point for the 737MAX at this point in time. A lot of those aircraft fit in the same category of the 737MAX, and I think it'd just add more fleet complexity if they add this, as well as the A321neos.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks


THE 757MAX IS HAPPENING TOMMOROW. (sorry I was just tempted.......)


The MAX will fit in DL's fleet if the total cost of ownership is there. Each MAX type has the lowest cost of operation in their segment. Like the NEOs, they are all transcon, HI capable, and with some care, even TATL capable (although I don't think DL will use them TATL; they will keep using their 75s). They have the potential to be the lowest maintenance cost, although the LEAP has to prove itself. The big question mark is acquisition cost, and it may be that Boeing solves that problem via great lease terms. If that happens, MAXes will fly in DL colors.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:22 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ehaase wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:

Thanks. But FACE IT, you only said that because I said "THE 757MAX IS HAPPENING TOMMOROW." FACE IT.


No, Delta has enough options and orders for 220's and 321's to replace all the single aisle aircraft that will be over 25 years old by 2030. This 737 Max talk is preposterous to me.


Please show your math. The remaining Airbus narrowbody order does not cover the MD88, MD90, 717, A320, A319, 737-700, and 757 retirements.




Obviosuly it won't. A319s, A320s, 717s, 757s, and 737-800s are for now only retiring in smaller amounts. Not to mention that there are deferrals going on. These 737 MAXs would for sure be part of the deferrals.
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:24 pm

Opus99 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I also find the speculation somewhat ridiculous. Not to say it won't happen, but I find it very unlikely for many reasons:
-MAX reputation
-MAX far to big to replace 717s 1 for 1. Pax want frequency
-Its another fleet type, Delta has stated repeatedly that they want to have fewer types.
-They competed the MAX against the 320 series already, and the MAX lost. What has changed?
-Airbus won't stand by and watch it happen, they'll compete
-Trump is leaving office, so the "buy American," thing is going by the wayside.
-The 321 is better than the MAX. It was winning in tbe marketplace BEFORE the crashes.
-Delta committing to expend that many resources at this time would be irresponsible.
-GE and CFM have alienated Delta

I mean dl has a huge 737 fleet. Airbus doesn’t have the need to charge the price Boeing is going to go for. It doesn’t make any business sense. Their neo order book is about twice the size of the MAX. For aircrafts like this the price is going to be the key factor and commonality as well.

People think airlines are just here to please your aircraft demands because you like the space in a NEO. People this is a business, a profit maximisation business. If you’re giving me 320neo performance for 12 million dollars off? Are you kidding me?
MAX reputation? Please let’s be serious, then the whole of America won’t fly if it’s max reputation.

Of course DL are looking at the MAX heavily as they should.

Alaska closed a deal with the MAX 9. And some people said “oh! This doesn’t make sense!” How doesn’t it make sense? This is a business before anything else. Let us all remember that.

321 better than the MAX, over ranges they can both cover that is arguable. Neo. Even if, whatever gain you think you’re getting from the “better” 321, the lease price will wipe out that improvement from a DOC point of view.

Delta has over 200 NGS -800s and -900s. You’re giving them a 15% fuel burn break on those jets for 38-40 million.

Till date, the only thing Delta has used to replace their Boeing aircraft is the 321 for the 757 and that’s because I mean what else would you use?




Their 737 fleet as of now is still going strong. They have actively stated that the -800 is staying for a while and the -900ERs are barely 5! Any incoming 321s will kill any need for the 737 MAX 10, as well as existing 757s.
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:29 pm

ehaase wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:

Thanks. But FACE IT, you only said that because I said "THE 757MAX IS HAPPENING TOMMOROW." FACE IT.


No, Delta has enough options and orders for 220's and 321's to replace all the single aisle aircraft that will be over 25 years old by 2030. This 737 Max talk is preposterous to me.




I literally just stated that these aircraft (319, 320, 738, 752) are not going anytime soon. All the 25+ yr old planes I stated won't be completely replaced by 2030, because it's not their business model. Of course, it is preposterous talk. Those aircraft, incoming 321s, the reputation of the 737 MAX, and fleet simplicity will kill any need for the 737 MAX in DL.
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:34 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I also find the speculation somewhat ridiculous. Not to say it won't happen, but I find it very unlikely for many reasons:
-MAX reputation
-MAX far to big to replace 717s 1 for 1. Pax want frequency
-Its another fleet type, Delta has stated repeatedly that they want to have fewer types.
-They competed the MAX against the 320 series already, and the MAX lost. What has changed?
-Airbus won't stand by and watch it happen, they'll compete
-Trump is leaving office, so the "buy American," thing is going by the wayside.
-The 321 is better than the MAX. It was winning in tbe marketplace BEFORE the crashes.
-Delta committing to expend that many resources at this time would be irresponsible.
-GE and CFM have alienated Delta

I mean dl has a huge 737 fleet. Airbus doesn’t have the need to charge the price Boeing is going to go for. It doesn’t make any business sense. Their neo order book is about twice the size of the MAX. For aircrafts like this the price is going to be the key factor and commonality as well.

People think airlines are just here to please your aircraft demands because you like the space in a NEO. People this is a business, a profit maximisation business. If you’re giving me 320neo performance for 12 million dollars off? Are you kidding me?
MAX reputation? Please let’s be serious, then the whole of America won’t fly if it’s max reputation.

Of course DL are looking at the MAX heavily as they should.

Alaska closed a deal with the MAX 9. And some people said “oh! This doesn’t make sense!” How doesn’t it make sense? This is a business before anything else. Let us all remember that.

321 better than the MAX, over ranges they can both cover that is arguable. Neo. Even if, whatever gain you think you’re getting from the “better” 321, the lease price will wipe out that improvement from a DOC point of view.

Delta has over 200 NGS -800s and -900s. You’re giving them a 15% fuel burn break on those jets for 38-40 million.

Till date, the only thing Delta has used to replace their Boeing aircraft is the 321 for the 757 and that’s because I mean what else would you use?




Their 737 fleet as of now is still going strong. They have actively stated that the -800 is staying for a while and the -900ERs are barely 5! Any incoming 321s will kill any need for the 737 MAX 10, as well as existing 757s.

Will they stay young forever? Please. If they had no interest in this jet why are they talking to Boeing.
Secondly, you’re repeating what I said concerning the 321.

Everybody will cry “how could they”when they do it. Meanwhile it’s good business but like I say people forget this is a profit maximisation business
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:20 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I mean dl has a huge 737 fleet. Airbus doesn’t have the need to charge the price Boeing is going to go for. It doesn’t make any business sense. Their neo order book is about twice the size of the MAX. For aircrafts like this the price is going to be the key factor and commonality as well.

People think airlines are just here to please your aircraft demands because you like the space in a NEO. People this is a business, a profit maximisation business. If you’re giving me 320neo performance for 12 million dollars off? Are you kidding me?
MAX reputation? Please let’s be serious, then the whole of America won’t fly if it’s max reputation.

Of course DL are looking at the MAX heavily as they should.

Alaska closed a deal with the MAX 9. And some people said “oh! This doesn’t make sense!” How doesn’t it make sense? This is a business before anything else. Let us all remember that.

321 better than the MAX, over ranges they can both cover that is arguable. Neo. Even if, whatever gain you think you’re getting from the “better” 321, the lease price will wipe out that improvement from a DOC point of view.

Delta has over 200 NGS -800s and -900s. You’re giving them a 15% fuel burn break on those jets for 38-40 million.

Till date, the only thing Delta has used to replace their Boeing aircraft is the 321 for the 757 and that’s because I mean what else would you use?




Their 737 fleet as of now is still going strong. They have actively stated that the -800 is staying for a while and the -900ERs are barely 5! Any incoming 321s will kill any need for the 737 MAX 10, as well as existing 757s.

Will they stay young forever? Please. If they had no interest in this jet why are they talking to Boeing?
Secondly, you’re repeating what I said concerning the 321.

Everybody will cry “how could they”when they do it. Meanwhile it’s good business but like I say people forget this is a profit maximisation business




By the time DL is replacing the 737-900ERs (the 738s are staying until 2030 AFAIK), there would probably be some new clean sheet plane coming on the market that would be more capable than the 737MAX. And, I am just expressing why I believe DL is making certain moves. Do you think Mr. Ed Bastian will appear on this forum right now and listen to all of us? It's not like any of us actually will make a change. It's Boeing and DL. We are just talking about things we hear from the media...
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:21 pm

Opus99 wrote:
If they had no interest in this jet why are they talking to Boeing.


Hasn’t it already been established that this was nothing more than a general chat with Boeing, rather than negotiations to buy MAX? Given there are only two OEMs available, would you not expect an airline the size of DL to be in regular communication with both?
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Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:33 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:



Their 737 fleet as of now is still going strong. They have actively stated that the -800 is staying for a while and the -900ERs are barely 5! Any incoming 321s will kill any need for the 737 MAX 10, as well as existing 757s.

Will they stay young forever? Please. If they had no interest in this jet why are they talking to Boeing?
Secondly, you’re repeating what I said concerning the 321.

Everybody will cry “how could they”when they do it. Meanwhile it’s good business but like I say people forget this is a profit maximisation business




By the time DL is replacing the 737-900ERs (the 738s are staying until 2030 AFAIK), there would probably be some new clean sheet plane coming on the market that would be more capable than the 737MAX. And, I am just expressing why I believe DL is making certain moves. Do you think Mr. Ed Bastian will appear on this forum right now and listen to all of us? It's not like any of us actually will make a change. It's Boeing and DL. We are just talking about things we hear from the media...

DL has a good bunch of 737s heading for their 20s and many already 20. So I mean? BA’s 777s are also here till 2030 and are being replaced so what’s your point? Some are young but also many are very old... they have over 200 737s. They all didn’t arrive on the same day
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
If they had no interest in this jet why are they talking to Boeing.


Hasn’t it already been established that this was nothing more than a general chat with Boeing, rather than negotiations to buy MAX? Given there are only two OEMs available, would you not expect an airline the size of DL to be in regular communication with both?

And who established that? I mean he said they are talking to Boeing about a range of things including the 737 MAX. I mean what else would he be talking to them about the MAX for? The point is the interest is there. He went on to say. If they find an opportunity to acquire it they’ll be comfortable doing so. I mean...
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:37 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Will they stay young forever? Please. If they had no interest in this jet why are they talking to Boeing?
Secondly, you’re repeating what I said concerning the 321.

Everybody will cry “how could they”when they do it. Meanwhile it’s good business but like I say people forget this is a profit maximisation business




By the time DL is replacing the 737-900ERs (the 738s are staying until 2030 AFAIK), there would probably be some new clean sheet plane coming on the market that would be more capable than the 737MAX. And, I am just expressing why I believe DL is making certain moves. Do you think Mr. Ed Bastian will appear on this forum right now and listen to all of us? It's not like any of us actually will make a change. It's Boeing and DL. We are just talking about things we hear from the media...

DL has a good bunch of 737s heading for their 20s and many already 20. So I mean? BA’s 777s are also here till 2030 and are being replaced so what’s your point? Some are young but also many are very old... they have over 200 737s. They all didn’t arrive on the same day




My point is that the oldest bunch are not going to be replaced by 737 MAXs anytime soon, as there are many other aircraft in the fleet which can fill the gap.

They all didn’t arrive on the same day


What are you trying to accomplish by saying this??
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:06 pm

Opus99 wrote:
He went on to say. If they find an opportunity to acquire it they’ll be comfortable doing so. I mean...


What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:20 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:



By the time DL is replacing the 737-900ERs (the 738s are staying until 2030 AFAIK), there would probably be some new clean sheet plane coming on the market that would be more capable than the 737MAX. And, I am just expressing why I believe DL is making certain moves. Do you think Mr. Ed Bastian will appear on this forum right now and listen to all of us? It's not like any of us actually will make a change. It's Boeing and DL. We are just talking about things we hear from the media...

DL has a good bunch of 737s heading for their 20s and many already 20. So I mean? BA’s 777s are also here till 2030 and are being replaced so what’s your point? Some are young but also many are very old... they have over 200 737s. They all didn’t arrive on the same day




My point is that the oldest bunch are not going to be replaced by 737 MAXs anytime soon, as there are many other aircraft in the fleet which can fill the gap.

They all didn’t arrive on the same day


What are you trying to accomplish by saying this??

Okay so this MAX discussion is so fun and laughs? Other aircrafts to feel the gaps? Okay sure. The idea is that a significant proportion of deltas 737-800s are old, especially th800s So this fill in the gap you’re looking for please tell me where it will come from and then. Looking at cirium fleet analyser delta has 77 800s. And 71 of those are between the ages of 18 and 22. Then there’s still 65 717s That seems like a significant gap to fill but okay if you say they can tough it out till 2035 that’s fine
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He went on to say. If they find an opportunity to acquire it they’ll be comfortable doing so. I mean...


What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:

The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight
 
N649DL
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:22 am

I personally don't see any of this happening. I think DL (as others have said, given it's track record and slow road to recovery) will not want to get involved with the MAX. And based on the 321 and A220 orders, I really don't see them keeping around the 717s either in the long term.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:30 am

Opus99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He went on to say. If they find an opportunity to acquire it they’ll be comfortable doing so. I mean...


What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:

The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


Just doing his job as CEO. You’d be complaining if he didn’t talk to Boeing, but I think you’re reading too much into it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:49 pm

scbriml wrote:
What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:


Well that would be an outright lie... becuase the only Wool on a 737 is that presnet on the seatcovers of the Captain's and Co-Pilot's seats. By weight or volume, which ever metric you choose, a Woolie mammoth will have more wool than a 737. Even if Delta were to equip the jump seats with woolen covers, the Woolie mammoth would still have more wool. It would still be woollier than a 737.
But I digress....
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:

The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight

Just doing his job as CEO. You’d be complaining if he didn’t talk to Boeing, but I think you’re reading too much into it.

Funny how this comment goes with little pushback but the idea that WN is talking to Airbus about A220 just to cover all the bases gets met with vitriol. FWIW I think in the near term MAX7 at DL is far more likely than A220 at WN for structural reasons -- DL is set up to handle multiple fleets and uses that to its advantage whereas WN is not at all set up for multiple fleets, it only has a single pilot pool and every pilot is expected to be able to fly any plane in the fleet.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:

The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


Just doing his job as CEO. You’d be complaining if he didn’t talk to Boeing, but I think you’re reading too much into it.

Indeed. You'd have to be a pretty bad CEO (of any company) to NOT talk to all the manufacturers to get the best product and price for the company.

Of course in the real-world there are the "dark arts" of doing business too. Tony Fernandes was boasting at a press conference announcement about making John Leahy dance in the restaurant the night before they signed a deal! What a sight that would have been, maybe that's what floats Tony's boat and John was willing to go "the extra mile" to get the deal done! :lol:
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:55 pm

Breathe wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


Just doing his job as CEO. You’d be complaining if he didn’t talk to Boeing, but I think you’re reading too much into it.

Indeed. You'd have to be a pretty bad CEO (of any company) to NOT talk to all the manufacturers to get the best product and price for the company.

Of course in the real-world there are the "dark arts" of doing business too. Tony Fernandes was boasting at a press conference announcement about making John Leahy dance in the restaurant the night before they signed a deal! What a sight that would have been, maybe that's what floats Tony's boat and John was willing to go "the extra mile" to get the deal done! :lol:

I mean. That’s what Ryanair does and they’re probably the most successful LCC. It depends on your business model and relationship with manufacturers but that blanket statement doesn’t hold true in all scenarios. Clearly.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:25 pm

I think what is perplexing is Delta's CEO blatantly discussing his negotiation tactics at a time when there are massive fleet retirements, a reigning in of costs, and implication that the discussion may be for the "controversial" MAX, all at a time when the public is scared to fly.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
FWIW I think in the near term MAX7 at DL is far more likely than A220 at WN for structural reasons


I can certainly see DL considering the 737-8, but I think their A220 fleet negates the need for the -7.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:16 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
I think what is perplexing is Delta's CEO blatantly discussing his negotiation tactics at a time when there are massive fleet retirements, a reigning in of costs, and implication that the discussion may be for the "controversial" MAX, all at a time when the public is scared to fly.


Boeing has a fairly sizable number of 737-8's that were built up during the grounding period and that had customers either go out of business (e.g. Jet Airways, Air Italy), or refuse delivery (e.g. Norwegian). Boeing's marketing people are probably making the rounds of (somewhat) healthy large airlines to see who might be interested in a deal to take these "whitetails" off their storage lots. This would include talking to Delta.

As for the B717 "trade in" rumor, my understanding is that Delta plans to phase these planes out as their leases expire, regardless of if they buy 737-8's, or not.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight

Just doing his job as CEO. You’d be complaining if he didn’t talk to Boeing, but I think you’re reading too much into it.

Funny how this comment goes with little pushback but the idea that WN is talking to Airbus about A220 just to cover all the bases gets met with vitriol. FWIW I think in the near term MAX7 at DL is far more likely than A220 at WN for structural reasons -- DL is set up to handle multiple fleets and uses that to its advantage whereas WN is not at all set up for multiple fleets, it only has a single pilot pool and every pilot is expected to be able to fly any plane in the fleet.


I'll admit that fleet decisions are in my top curiosities. My posts are pure speculation and I don't pretend to know what will happen. I just think it's an interesting subject. But some people really seem to get upset when this subject comes up.

But at this point in the game is Airbus really concerned that Delta would order from Boeing? They've won the last four fleet orders so I would think they know their position is pretty comfortable. And is it possible that Delta could sign an exclusive agreement with Airbus like US Airways did when Airbus gave them a big cash infusion during difficult times?
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FWIW I think in the near term MAX7 at DL is far more likely than A220 at WN for structural reasons


I can certainly see DL considering the 737-8, but I think their A220 fleet negates the need for the -7.



I think the 737-800 is staying around for at least 10 more years, so I don't think it'd be considered just yet. Not to mention the A320 retirements are SLOW, so both the A320-200 and 737-800 are staying for a while, crushing need for 737-8 in the near future. Don't even think about the 737-9 or 737-10, as we already have A321s, 737-900ERs, and 757-200s.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:38 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FWIW I think in the near term MAX7 at DL is far more likely than A220 at WN for structural reasons


I can certainly see DL considering the 737-8, but I think their A220 fleet negates the need for the -7.



I think the 737-800 is staying around for at least 10 more years, so I don't think it'd be considered just yet. Not to mention the A320 retirements are SLOW, so both the A320-200 and 737-800 are staying for a while, crushing need for 737-8 in the near future. Don't even think about the 737-9 or 737-10, as we already have A321s, 737-900ERs, and 757-200s.


In respect to Delta's fleet the A320 is considerably older than the 737-800. Northwest starting taking delivery of A320's 30 years ago.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:26 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
As for the B717 "trade in" rumor, my understanding is that Delta plans to phase these planes out as their leases expire, regardless of if they buy 737-8's, or not.


A number of people commented regarding the 717s since the rumor resurfaced after Bastian's comments, but IMO, I don't think the fact that a decision has already been made to withdraw the 717s means they are not at play. Boeing can certainly provide retroactive relief financially for the 717s already removed and it can provide earlier lease terminations or financial relief on remaining 717s (e.g., paying for maintenance, etc.). Boeing and DL will both use anything possible to make deals happen if they want to make a deal happen - that includes the 717s. Indeed, *IF* we see a 737MAX order by DL, I think there will absolutely be a 717 impact.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:44 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

I can certainly see DL considering the 737-8, but I think their A220 fleet negates the need for the -7.



I think the 737-800 is staying around for at least 10 more years, so I don't think it'd be considered just yet. Not to mention the A320 retirements are SLOW, so both the A320-200 and 737-800 are staying for a while, crushing need for 737-8 in the near future. Don't even think about the 737-9 or 737-10, as we already have A321s, 737-900ERs, and 757-200s.


In respect to Delta's fleet the A320 is considerably older than the 737-800. Northwest starting taking delivery of A320's 30 years ago.



Indeed they are older. The 737-800s average age is around the same age as the 767-400ERs, A319s, and 717s while the A320s are older than a lot of the 757s and 767s. But DL only retired 10 this year, meaning we still have 52 of those birds...
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:12 am

When do the 717 seats need to be replaced or is that no longer an issue?
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:19 am

a.net needs to get out of its collective mindset that "age" is the end-all, be-all factor at determining whether a fleet type should be retained or retired.

Exhibit A:
DL retired 10 year old 77Ls alongside 30 year old MD88s.

Its a lot more complex than just pure age of a given airframe.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:09 pm

Opus99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He went on to say. If they find an opportunity to acquire it they’ll be comfortable doing so. I mean...


What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:

The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


I also agree that the gap will be filled. but the 717s are being replaced by 220s.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:37 pm

N649DL wrote:
I personally don't see any of this happening. I think DL (as others have said, given it's track record and slow road to recovery) will not want to get involved with the MAX. And based on the 321 and A220 orders, I really don't see them keeping around the 717s either in the long term.


16 717's parked at ILN have been leaving as lease returns - one here, one there.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:36 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I personally don't see any of this happening. I think DL (as others have said, given it's track record and slow road to recovery) will not want to get involved with the MAX. And based on the 321 and A220 orders, I really don't see them keeping around the 717s either in the long term.


16 717's parked at ILN have been leaving as lease returns - one here, one there.

DL has only moved a total of 2 717s from ILN since April
1 was ferried ILN-BYH for long term storage / scrapping
1 was reactivated ILN-DTW

There was only 1 other 717 reactived, out of BHM to ATL.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:02 pm

snoopaloop wrote:
When do the 717 seats need to be replaced or is that no longer an issue?


I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165
 
smartplane
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:13 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
snoopaloop wrote:
When do the 717 seats need to be replaced or is that no longer an issue?


I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165

Usually AD compliance costs are for the lessor, including payment holiday while the aircraft is unavailable. However, if this is an end of life lease, with no end of lease balloon payment for the lessee, then AD costs will usually be for the lessee, not the lessor.

The fleet isn't all leased, and the leased aircraft are in different tranches presumably on different terms (including sub-leased where normal practice is to mirror leases other than payment terms), so some may remain in storage, some flown and others parted. Other than those with inside information, time will reveal.
Last edited by smartplane on Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cessna2
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:15 pm

LAOCA wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

What would you expect him to say? It’s woollier than a mammoth. :lol:

The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


I also agree that the gap will be filled. but the 717s are being replaced by 220s.

I haven't seen a new order announced. The A220's were bought for expansion and to fly thinner domestic routes. Up until recently the 717's were to stay in the fleet through the end of the decade. Unless the options are exercised, or a new order announced, it's speculation as to what will eventually replace the 717's.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:15 pm

smartplane wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
snoopaloop wrote:
When do the 717 seats need to be replaced or is that no longer an issue?


I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165

Usually AD compliance costs are for the lessor, including payment holiday while the aircraft is unavailable. However, if this is an end of life lease, with no end of lease balloon payment for the lessee, then AD costs will usually be for the lessee, not the lessor.

The fleet isn't all leased, and the leased aircraft are in different tranches presumably on different terms, so some may remain in storage, some flown and others parted. Other than those with inside information, time will reveal.

That depends on who owns the seats. This isn’t an AD pertaining to the airframe.

cessna2 wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


I also agree that the gap will be filled. but the 717s are being replaced by 220s.

I haven't seen a new order announced. The A220's were bought for expansion and to fly thinner domestic routes. Up until recently the 717's were to stay in the fleet through the end of the decade. Unless the options are exercised, or a new order announced, it's speculation as to what will eventually replace the 717's.

The A220s. You are going to see DL shrink. Will they eventually order more 100 seaters? Too early to tell.
 
smartplane
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:20 pm

Polot wrote:
smartplane wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165

Usually AD compliance costs are for the lessor, including payment holiday while the aircraft is unavailable. However, if this is an end of life lease, with no end of lease balloon payment for the lessee, then AD costs will usually be for the lessee, not the lessor.

The fleet isn't all leased, and the leased aircraft are in different tranches presumably on different terms, so some may remain in storage, some flown and others parted. Other than those with inside information, time will reveal.

That depends on who owns the seats. This isn’t an AD pertaining to the airframe.

This far down an aircraft's life, especially if an end of life lease, the cost of seat removal, transport and storage outweighs their residual value. Only issue is protecting the brand if clearly discernible, but in the current cash saving environment, aircraft are being parted in public view without a white over.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:06 pm

cessna2 wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The point is there’s interest... he’s not going there looking for the jet to use as paper weight


I also agree that the gap will be filled. but the 717s are being replaced by 220s.

I haven't seen a new order announced. The A220's were bought for expansion and to fly thinner domestic routes. Up until recently the 717's were to stay in the fleet through the end of the decade. Unless the options are exercised, or a new order announced, it's speculation as to what will eventually replace the 717's.


A220s were not bought just for expansion. In part, yes. But a substantial portion were to replace MDs and upgauge from RJs as 50 seaters were retired (with 70/76 seaters replacing the 50 seaters).
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:26 pm

It will be interesting to see how Covid and post covid business travel patterns influence Delta's fleet planning. While up gauging was their thing in previous years, it's very possible that everything is different now.
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:55 pm

smartplane wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
snoopaloop wrote:
When do the 717 seats need to be replaced or is that no longer an issue?


I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165

Usually AD compliance costs are for the lessor, including payment holiday while the aircraft is unavailable. However, if this is an end of life lease, with no end of lease balloon payment for the lessee, then AD costs will usually be for the lessee, not the lessor.

The fleet isn't all leased, and the leased aircraft are in different tranches presumably on different terms (including sub-leased where normal practice is to mirror leases other than payment terms), so some may remain in storage, some flown and others parted. Other than those with inside information, time will reveal.

Not true. The lessee is responsible for all maintenance and costs. It’s Delta owned seats in those planes.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:19 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165

Usually AD compliance costs are for the lessor, including payment holiday while the aircraft is unavailable. However, if this is an end of life lease, with no end of lease balloon payment for the lessee, then AD costs will usually be for the lessee, not the lessor.

The fleet isn't all leased, and the leased aircraft are in different tranches presumably on different terms (including sub-leased where normal practice is to mirror leases other than payment terms), so some may remain in storage, some flown and others parted. Other than those with inside information, time will reveal.

Not true. The lessee is responsible for all maintenance and costs. It’s Delta owned seats in those planes.


Here is more info about the Zodiac "Slim/Slimplus" seats that are the subject of the 2017 A.D., also some cost estimates for compliance (note the FAA's and the impacted airlines' estimates are far apart). Not only is the B717 and MD90 impacted, but so are operators of the CRJ-700 & 900, E170~190 & Q400 aircraft.

https://jdasolutions.aero/blog/faa-zodiac-seats/
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:02 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
I think what is perplexing is Delta's CEO blatantly discussing his negotiation tactics at a time when there are massive fleet retirements, a reigning in of costs, and implication that the discussion may be for the "controversial" MAX, all at a time when the public is scared to fly.


Boeing has a fairly sizable number of 737-8's that were built up during the grounding period and that had customers either go out of business (e.g. Jet Airways, Air Italy), or refuse delivery (e.g. Norwegian). Boeing's marketing people are probably making the rounds of (somewhat) healthy large airlines to see who might be interested in a deal to take these "whitetails" off their storage lots. This would include talking to Delta.

As for the B717 "trade in" rumor, my understanding is that Delta plans to phase these planes out as their leases expire, regardless of if they buy 737-8's, or not.



You make sensible reasoning. But why, with the founded/unfounded stigma associated with the MAX and at a time when people are scared to fly regardless of the aircraft due to the pandemic, would public comments be made explicitly or implicitly to involve an aircraft not yet newly tried and tested? It can just be that Mr. Bastian has unwavering support and confidence in Boeing, and if so, I give him credit in doing so. IMO, nothing wrong with supporting MAX, but it just has not been in Delta's vocabulary at all amid fleet retirements and similar-type Airbus orders.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:10 am

jbs2886 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
As for the B717 "trade in" rumor, my understanding is that Delta plans to phase these planes out as their leases expire, regardless of if they buy 737-8's, or not.


A number of people commented regarding the 717s since the rumor resurfaced after Bastian's comments, but IMO, I don't think the fact that a decision has already been made to withdraw the 717s means they are not at play. Boeing can certainly provide retroactive relief financially for the 717s already removed and it can provide earlier lease terminations or financial relief on remaining 717s (e.g., paying for maintenance, etc.). Boeing and DL will both use anything possible to make deals happen if they want to make a deal happen - that includes the 717s. Indeed, *IF* we see a 737MAX order by DL, I think there will absolutely be a 717 impact.


According to the Q3 10K, Delta has already taken impairment-related charges for retiring the entire Boeing 717 fleet by 2025 when the last of the BCC leases expire. While a large portion of the total of the B717 fleet of 91 is directly leased from BCC, a few more are being leased from Pembroke and others are sub-leased from Southwest. Delta also owns more than a dozen B717's outright.

https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... -Filed.pdf

Therefore, I can't see where Delta would have much leverage with Boeing to make a deal for B737-8's by using their B717 fleet as "trade-in's". I imagine what Boeing is offering for the B737-8 "white tails" are prices discounted by the amounts of deposits & progress payments made by their original customers. Boeing might also offer to provide a "rebate" for the purchasing airline to fund their required interior and avionics mods. But in the case of Delta, I would be surprised if they opt to add the MAX to their fleet at a time when they are trying to conserve cash and reduce/simplify their fleets.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:45 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
As for the B717 "trade in" rumor, my understanding is that Delta plans to phase these planes out as their leases expire, regardless of if they buy 737-8's, or not.


A number of people commented regarding the 717s since the rumor resurfaced after Bastian's comments, but IMO, I don't think the fact that a decision has already been made to withdraw the 717s means they are not at play. Boeing can certainly provide retroactive relief financially for the 717s already removed and it can provide earlier lease terminations or financial relief on remaining 717s (e.g., paying for maintenance, etc.). Boeing and DL will both use anything possible to make deals happen if they want to make a deal happen - that includes the 717s. Indeed, *IF* we see a 737MAX order by DL, I think there will absolutely be a 717 impact.


According to the Q3 10K, Delta has already taken impairment-related charges for retiring the entire Boeing 717 fleet by 2025 when the last of the BCC leases expire. While a large portion of the total of the B717 fleet of 91 is directly leased from BCC, a few more are being leased from Pembroke and others are sub-leased from Southwest. Delta also owns more than a dozen B717's outright.

https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... -Filed.pdf

Therefore, I can't see where Delta would have much leverage with Boeing to make a deal for B737-8's by using their B717 fleet as "trade-in's". I imagine what Boeing is offering for the B737-8 "white tails" are prices discounted by the amounts of deposits & progress payments made by their original customers. Boeing might also offer to provide a "rebate" for the purchasing airline to fund their required interior and avionics mods. But in the case of Delta, I would be surprised if they opt to add the MAX to their fleet at a time when they are trying to conserve cash and reduce/simplify their fleets.


As I stated in my post, just because those aircraft were already removed and/or impairments taken does not mean it won't be part of negotiations. Is it your belief that once a financial decision is made regarding assets they can *never* be adjusted? That simply is not the case. Having the ability to assign money/discounts/etc. to different items makes a big difference.
 
smartplane
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:34 am

Boof02671 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165

Usually AD compliance costs are for the lessor, including payment holiday while the aircraft is unavailable. However, if this is an end of life lease, with no end of lease balloon payment for the lessee, then AD costs will usually be for the lessee, not the lessor.

The fleet isn't all leased, and the leased aircraft are in different tranches presumably on different terms (including sub-leased where normal practice is to mirror leases other than payment terms), so some may remain in storage, some flown and others parted. Other than those with inside information, time will reveal.

Not true. The lessee is responsible for all maintenance and costs. It’s Delta owned seats in those planes.

The lessee is responsible for all maintenance, including documentation. Where a lessee leases a new or used aircraft to economic end of life, they will certainly be responsible for meeting all AD compliance costs if not covered partly / fully by the relevant OEM.

Where an aircraft is leased for a period, ending before it's deemed end of economic life, different practices apply. For example, where an aircraft is leased for say 12 years, is deemed to have an economic service life of 18 years, and an AD must be actioned by Y6, the lessee obtains benefit for 6 years, and the lessor potentially for 6 years too. AD compliance costs would be met fully by the lessee when the work is undertaken, with an adjustment at lease end made as a credit against the EOL balloon payment payable by the lessee.

There is an industry arbitration process to determine economic service life and allocation of these costs, if not detailed in EOL T&C's.

In respect to seats / interior fit out, commercial passenger aircraft are either leased inclusive or exclusive, usually covered by a separate side agreement on the aircraft lease, or sometimes in separate documentation.

If the DL leases at time of execution were not deemed end of life, it would seem very likely by now, the lessors would be wanting to re-negotiate to make them end of life, so no possibility they are on the hook for a % of any AD compliance costs. DL on the other hand would want the reverse so costs are shared. In the real commonsense world, this provides leverage to terminate the leases early, with neither party sinking costs into an aircraft with little or no future.

However DL are very savvy negotiators, so it's likely the T's were crossed, and I's dotted on this subject when the leases were executed, or since, giving DL various options, at little or no cost.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:55 pm

Polot wrote:
smartplane wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

I seems that 2022 is the deadline for compliance with this A.D., which was issued in 2017....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... e0b42b4165


cessna2 wrote:
I haven't seen a new order announced. The A220's were bought for expansion and to fly thinner domestic routes. Up until recently the 717's were to stay in the fleet through the end of the decade. Unless the options are exercised, or a new order announced, it's speculation as to what will eventually replace the 717's.

The A220s. You are going to see DL shrink. Will they eventually order more 100 seaters? Too early to tell.


I am guessing that the current combination of A221s and 717s are about where DL wants to be in its smaller state. They will probably make do with being short a few 100 seaters for a bit when they decide to pull the plug on the 717s. But the A223 is probably compelling enough of a 150 seater to replace the A319s before they need to go, so some capex will go there. And A339s will get taken up along with a few more A359s when the travel limitations end. Lots of money to be spent. But the A220s will get their share.

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