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ctrabs0114
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:01 am

Biophobe99 wrote:
The real issue to me is the seat issue. Can DL and Boeing get the FAA to delay the requirement of replacing the seats? With the current operating environment the FAA might delay or modify the ruling. Even a year of two delay could be extremely beneficial. If they can’t then it would seem the 717 is almost certainly done for.


I might have missed this, but what exactly is the seat issue you're referring to?
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WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:19 am

jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:

Delta is 12 under the 76 seat limit; they would need 14 more A221s together with all the 717s to max out 223 76 seat jets. Delta coincidentally has 14 more A221s on order.

After this, A221s could replace 717s. But the remaining DL orders for A220s are for 50 A223s, which are too big for the scope clause.

It would appear that DL determined that once they had enough 110 seaters to max out the 76 seat scope, it would be better to upsize. That strongly suggests in the near term, DL planned to keep the 717s, and A223s would replace MD80s, some 319s (maybe the 73Gs, although I have seen nothing on that), indirectly some MD90s and then growth.

Of course, now all bets are off. It remains to be seen what size 76 seat RJ fleet DL wants going forward. But the 76 seat RJs will be important since they are cheaper (trip costs) to fly than any mainline jet.


Let the scope clause go. DL's losing $100M/day and fighting for its life. Hundreds of pilot jobs will be lost. It doesn't hold much weight at this point.

Per discussion on APC, there's a huge decrease in YOY projected November pilot requirement amongst the 717. I'd be very surprised if the fleet didn't start to shrink anytime soon.



I will let the scope clause go when DALPA lets the scope clause go


DL’s losing $100M/day, fighting for its life. Only on a.net is the scope issue a major obstacle. If you read APC, the consensus among many/most of the pilots - ALPA voting members is the 717 fleet is gone.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:21 am

sxf24 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
There is no force majuere in business contracts. They can break the lease and sued or file bankruptcy and void the lease

What are you talking about? Every single B2B Purchase Order I've seen (which is a contract) includes a Force Majeure clause; that's how companies get out of paying Late Fees or prevent the Customer from cancelling the Order.


There. Are. No. Force Majuere. Clauses. In. Aircraft. Leases.

Which is a little tiny bit different that "there are no Force Majeure in business contracts": Commercial Aircraft Leases are Business Contracts, not all Business Contracts are Commercial Leases.

By the way, please learn to spell "force majeure" correctly.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:44 am

Wikipedia has two interesting articles. One on the 737 up too and including the 737NG.. The other is on the 737 MAX and may be some what dated as it is at least a couple months old. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
DenverBrian
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:06 am

asr0dzjq wrote:

As mentioned in a previous comment, people got back on:

- DC-10's even after American Airlines' maintenance failures killed 273 people on Flight AAL191 in 1979 and for more than a decade after UAL232.
Single incident in 1979. No second incident of the exact same cause within five months.

- MD-80's even after Alaska's maintenance failures killed 88 people on ASA261 in 2000.
Single incident. Not two within five months from the exact same cause.

- Q400's even after repeated landing gear collapses.
No fatalities.

- A330's even after AFR447 killed 228 passengers and crew.
Single incident. Not two within five months from the exact same cause.

- MD-11's even after Swissair Flight 111 crashed in 1998.
Single incident. Not two within five months from the exact same cause.

- 737's even after two of them crashed due to jammed rudders. That was a design flaw
Far fewer fatalities; over three years between incidents, not five months.

- First generation 747's even after El Al Flight 1862 had its two right engines fall off. Also a design deficiency on Boeing's part.
Far fewer fatalities; no second incident of the exact same cause within five months.

And of course, the MAX crashes happened in the internet/Twitter/social media/24-hour news cycle era, so the information has permeated into conscious and subconscious minds far more than any of the incidents you quoted from 20+ years ago. The fact that you have to go so far back even to find anything remotely like the dual MAX crashes is an indicator of just how safe airline travel has become. And with that impeccable safety record comes ever-higher expectations from the public.

I'll probably fly the MAX after I let other humans test-pax them for 18-24 months.
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:37 am

I didn’t think this is right ! Maybe the other way around ? They want to trade their Max orders into brand new 717‘s?
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
asr0dzjq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:08 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
I didn’t think this is right ! Maybe the other way around ? They want to trade their Max orders into brand new 717‘s?

They want to trade their (used) MD-95 / 717 in for new 737 Max.
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
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asr0dzjq
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:09 am

DenverBrian wrote:
asr0dzjq wrote:

As mentioned in a previous comment, people got back on:

- DC-10's even after American Airlines' maintenance failures killed 273 people on Flight AAL191 in 1979 and for more than a decade after UAL232.
Single incident in 1979. No second incident of the exact same cause within five months.

- MD-80's even after Alaska's maintenance failures killed 88 people on ASA261 in 2000.
Single incident. Not two within five months from the exact same cause.

- Q400's even after repeated landing gear collapses.
No fatalities.

- A330's even after AFR447 killed 228 passengers and crew.
Single incident. Not two within five months from the exact same cause.

- MD-11's even after Swissair Flight 111 crashed in 1998.
Single incident. Not two within five months from the exact same cause.

- 737's even after two of them crashed due to jammed rudders. That was a design flaw
Far fewer fatalities; over three years between incidents, not five months.

- First generation 747's even after El Al Flight 1862 had its two right engines fall off. Also a design deficiency on Boeing's part.
Far fewer fatalities; no second incident of the exact same cause within five months.

And of course, the MAX crashes happened in the internet/Twitter/social media/24-hour news cycle era, so the information has permeated into conscious and subconscious minds far more than any of the incidents you quoted from 20+ years ago. The fact that you have to go so far back even to find anything remotely like the dual MAX crashes is an indicator of just how safe airline travel has become. And with that impeccable safety record comes ever-higher expectations from the public.

I'll probably fly the MAX after I let other humans test-pax them for 18-24 months.

My point still stands, but you're right. AAL191 and THY981 happened in an age when the media were probably trustworthy and actually cared about reporting the facts. The 737 Max fiasco is happening in an age where the media is nothing but a mafia, with clickbait titles and exaggerated everything, making the fiasco 100 times worse than it needs to be.

I'll happily fly on a 737 Max once it returns to service. Sure, I'll be a "test passenger" if you insist.
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:31 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
What are you talking about? Every single B2B Purchase Order I've seen (which is a contract) includes a Force Majeure clause; that's how companies get out of paying Late Fees or prevent the Customer from cancelling the Order.


There. Are. No. Force Majuere. Clauses. In. Aircraft. Leases.

Which is a little tiny bit different that "there are no Force Majeure in business contracts": Commercial Aircraft Leases are Business Contracts, not all Business Contracts are Commercial Leases.

By the way, please learn to spell "force majeure" correctly.


If you want to get technical, I am correct: there are no force majuere [sic] clauses in any business contract. ;)

But let’s not be pedantic and get to the point: the only way to get out of an aircraft lease is if there’s a total loss. Otherwise, it’s a default and the lessor has a butt load of remedies that are all tested in the courts. Lessees can’t just decided to walk away.
 
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par13del
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:48 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
[
I hear ya. No not upset . I agree the only thing that would make sense is MAXs later but I still can't see that happening.

I suspect even Boeing could / would see that if this ever came up in any passing conversation.............
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:18 pm

Delta: "let's trade a plane that flies for one that is grounded and costs 5 times as much".
 
DenverBrian
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:23 pm

asr0dzjq wrote:
My point still stands, but you're right. AAL191 and THY981 happened in an age when the media were probably trustworthy and actually cared about reporting the facts. The 737 Max fiasco is happening in an age where the media is nothing but a mafia, with clickbait titles and exaggerated everything, making the fiasco 100 times worse than it needs to be.

I'll happily fly on a 737 Max once it returns to service. Sure, I'll be a "test passenger" if you insist.
The core facts have been reported correctly by all media: Two fatal crashes of the same model aircraft within five months of each other, for the same exact reason. 346 people dead. Those facts are, well, facts.

I think you have to go back to the de Havilland Comet crashes - two within 3 months of each other, for the exact same cause - for any kind of comparison to the MAX crashes. And in 1954, even without the internet and clickbait, the public was horrified, that plane was grounded, and the original model of the plane never returned to service.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:37 pm

sxf24 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

There. Are. No. Force Majuere. Clauses. In. Aircraft. Leases.

Which is a little tiny bit different that "there are no Force Majeure in business contracts": Commercial Aircraft Leases are Business Contracts, not all Business Contracts are Commercial Leases.

By the way, please learn to spell "force majeure" correctly.


If you want to get technical, I am correct: there are no force majuere [sic] clauses in any business contract. ;)

But let’s not be pedantic and get to the point: the only way to get out of an aircraft lease is if there’s a total loss. Otherwise, it’s a default and the lessor has a butt load of remedies that are all tested in the courts. Lessees can’t just decided to walk away.

You're correct.
But, contracts being contracts, they can be amended by mutual agreement; which means negotiations.
Let's see how this one turns out; but I doubt it'll happen unless Boeing is that desperate.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1007
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:47 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Which is a little tiny bit different that "there are no Force Majeure in business contracts": Commercial Aircraft Leases are Business Contracts, not all Business Contracts are Commercial Leases.

By the way, please learn to spell "force majeure" correctly.


If you want to get technical, I am correct: there are no force majuere [sic] clauses in any business contract. ;)

But let’s not be pedantic and get to the point: the only way to get out of an aircraft lease is if there’s a total loss. Otherwise, it’s a default and the lessor has a butt load of remedies that are all tested in the courts. Lessees can’t just decided to walk away.

You're correct.
But, contracts being contracts, they can be amended by mutual agreement; which means negotiations.
Let's see how this one turns out; but I doubt it'll happen unless Boeing is that desperate.


Considering BCC’s concentration is the 717 and Delta, the airline’s ask and public negotiation strategy seem questionable.
 
mcg
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:12 pm

DenverBrian wrote:
asr0dzjq wrote:
My point still stands, but you're right. AAL191 and THY981 happened in an age when the media were probably trustworthy and actually cared about reporting the facts. The 737 Max fiasco is happening in an age where the media is nothing but a mafia, with clickbait titles and exaggerated everything, making the fiasco 100 times worse than it needs to be.

I'll happily fly on a 737 Max once it returns to service. Sure, I'll be a "test passenger" if you insist.
The core facts have been reported correctly by all media: Two fatal crashes of the same model aircraft within five months of each other, for the same exact reason. 346 people dead. Those facts are, well, facts.

I think you have to go back to the de Havilland Comet crashes - two within 3 months of each other, for the exact same cause - for any kind of comparison to the MAX crashes. And in 1954, even without the internet and clickbait, the public was horrified, that plane was grounded, and the original model of the plane never returned to service.


Was the Lockheed Electra grounded? It had some sort of 'flutter' issue, IIRC. 727 had a pretty difficult introduction as I recall, was it grounded? These are actual serious questions, not intended to ignite a click war. Thanks.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:23 pm

The L188 was grounded while Lockheed developed a fix for the whirl mode phenomenon. The Electra ll followed. The 727 was never grounded, and I'm not aware of any consideration as such.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:19 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
A.net is full of threads where people crucify the MAX every day for over a year now, but every other thread there are posters that want to change them into MAX beatings, nearly every thread is corrupted. Yes Boeing screwed the pooch, spending north of $10B on that unmitigated disaster that yes certain idiot managers did cause. The FAA is riding herd hard, getting basically every MAX glitch is getting corrected. But can we please discuss the MAX disaster in the MAX threads, not hijack every other thread daily.

It is clear that all of the A.net fanboys really want commercial aviation to be just Airbus as long as it includes the A220. If it becomes just Airbus, innovation in aviation will stop for decades. We will just have arguments over whether the A359 is better than the A351 and why. This global stop of aviation has the potential of killing both Airbus and Boeing. Let's just lay off all 500,000 workers in aviation, that will really help the industry.

I see where you are coming from, but this thread is about the only one of the US3 who does not have MAX on order potentially ordering them, and this does raise the whole issue of customers who may want to avoid the MAX and airlines who may have issues trusting Boeing.

I too think those concerns are over stated. Customers won't take too long to get back on MAX once it has regulatory approval. I think airlines overall will have faith in Boeing to fix its issues. If I were DL CEO, though, I would want to have a lot more info on what went wrong with MAX and what was done to make sure it'll never happen again. On the other hand Boeing knows the airlines in general and DL in particular like to play the OEMs off against each other so they at least have some leverage they can use. IAG's LOI shows the industry wants two strong competitors, IMO.

So, I think the topic of MAX's acceptance by pax and airlines is fair game, and I also think the issue is being overblown by some a.net members
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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DenverBrian
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:20 pm

BTW, what of Embraer in all of this? Boeing is no longer merging with them. Don't they have a plane in the A220 seating capacity range? E195/195X?
 
mga707
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:31 pm

BravoOne wrote:
The L188 was grounded while Lockheed developed a fix for the whirl mode phenomenon. The Electra ll followed. The 727 was never grounded, and I'm not aware of any consideration as such.


Wrong. The Electra was NOT grounded. Speed restrictions were put on it, which restricted it's maximum speed to no faster than the piston-engined airliners of the day. But the FAA did not ever ground the type during the investigation of the Braniff and Northwest crashes that were attributed to what became known as 'whirl mode'. And 'Electra II' was not an 'official' Lockheed name for the modified aircraft. some airlines, including American, put 'Electra II' badging on their modified Electras. Others, including Eastern, called theirs 'Super Electra' after the mods. Both were marketing names.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:42 pm

Wow, I did not know that, and I even flew the airplane for a year or so after the LEAP program that Lockheed implemented post Braniff and NWA. Getting old so I miss things once and awhile.

Do you have any experience in the Electra?
 
JoergAtADN
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:52 pm

How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:57 pm

I remember getting blasted by multiple members on this forum just a few weeks ago for saying "I'm not saying an order is imminent, but I wouldn't be shocked if Delta orders the Max and/or 787".
Back before the A321NEO discussions turned from speculation into an actual order, I said that Delta was looking at the Max 8 in conjunction with an A321NEO order. That didn't materialize as was being rumored within the company. The idea behind the NEO was for future 757 replacement for longer routes while allowing the A321CEO to take over the shorter 757 missions. The A321 combined with 739ER would allow Delta to displace 738s and A320s with more capacity and better economics, allowing the smaller aircraft to displace the MD88/90 fleet on longer flights, with them eventually having large enough fleets to completely replace 88/90 and 757.

I still believe a Max 8 order will happen eventually to cover 738, A320 and to a lesser extent, MD90 replacement while A220-300 will eventually replace the A319 fleet. I doubt Delta will take delivert of a Max until 2024/25 at the earliest, pending it being recertified.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:16 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.



Not the first time that happened. Just look up history of the VFW-614. Sad, sad, sad but makes financial sense.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:27 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
I remember getting blasted by multiple members on this forum just a few weeks ago for saying "I'm not saying an order is imminent, but I wouldn't be shocked if Delta orders the Max and/or 787".
Back before the A321NEO discussions turned from speculation into an actual order, I said that Delta was looking at the Max 8 in conjunction with an A321NEO order. That didn't materialize as was being rumored within the company. The idea behind the NEO was for future 757 replacement for longer routes while allowing the A321CEO to take over the shorter 757 missions. The A321 combined with 739ER would allow Delta to displace 738s and A320s with more capacity and better economics, allowing the smaller aircraft to displace the MD88/90 fleet on longer flights, with them eventually having large enough fleets to completely replace 88/90 and 757.

I still believe a Max 8 order will happen eventually to cover 738, A320 and to a lesser extent, MD90 replacement while A220-300 will eventually replace the A319 fleet. I doubt Delta will take delivert of a Max until 2024/25 at the earliest, pending it being recertified.



Wasn't it last year at the Paris Air Show that rumor was British Airways, Lufthansa and Delta were targeted by Boeing for a Max order at the airshow. In the end only British Airways (IAG) took the bait. Boeing was looking for some benchmark airlines to give their approval of the Max, if I was a betting man I would think that that pressure has not subsided. I do expect a Max order from Delta. Trading in the 717 makes sense.
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:37 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
The real issue to me is the seat issue. Can DL and Boeing get the FAA to delay the requirement of replacing the seats? With the current operating environment the FAA might delay or modify the ruling. Even a year of two delay could be extremely beneficial. If they can’t then it would seem the 717 is almost certainly done for.


I might have missed this, but what exactly is the seat issue you're referring to?


It was mentioned up thread. Essentially the seats on the 717 must be replaced. Seats are very expensive which may be part of the reason DL is trying to rid themselves of some/all 717s.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/102075468
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:34 am

JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.


I think Boeing makes money on 717 support, otherwise they wouldn’t provide those parts and services. Nevertheless, RR would never let the 717 program be terminated early. They desperately need the cash flow.

Biophobe99 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
The real issue to me is the seat issue. Can DL and Boeing get the FAA to delay the requirement of replacing the seats? With the current operating environment the FAA might delay or modify the ruling. Even a year of two delay could be extremely beneficial. If they can’t then it would seem the 717 is almost certainly done for.


I might have missed this, but what exactly is the seat issue you're referring to?


It was mentioned up thread. Essentially the seats on the 717 must be replaced. Seats are very expensive which may be part of the reason DL is trying to rid themselves of some/all 717s.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/102075468


Who said they seats can’t be modified? Even if they do need to be replaced, it’s much, much cheaper than a new airplane (which Delta would need to buy seats for too).
 
mga707
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:53 am

BravoOne wrote:
Wow, I did not know that, and I even flew the airplane for a year or so after the LEAP program that Lockheed implemented post Braniff and NWA. Getting old so I miss things once and awhile.

Do you have any experience in the Electra?


Just as a passenger, mainly on AA in the '60s between ORD and DCA, before jets were allowed to land at DCA. Have owned a copy of Robert Serling's "The Electra Story" for many decades. Excellent account of the entire subject.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:29 am

Slightly off topic, but given the termination of the Boeing-Embraer deal, will Boeing ever try to seriously fill the void left by the loss of the 717 in its portfolio? I'm not asking of they would restart 717 production - that time has passed - but rather if they would attempt to fill that gap with a new plane. The MAX seems the be a somewhat large upgrade in size compared to a 717. I'm thinking about what Hawaiian uses them for, for example.
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:42 am

sxf24 wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.


I think Boeing makes money on 717 support, otherwise they wouldn’t provide those parts and services. Nevertheless, RR would never let the 717 program be terminated early. They desperately need the cash flow.

Biophobe99 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:

I might have missed this, but what exactly is the seat issue you're referring to?


It was mentioned up thread. Essentially the seats on the 717 must be replaced. Seats are very expensive which may be part of the reason DL is trying to rid themselves of some/all 717s.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/102075468


Who said they seats can’t be modified? Even if they do need to be replaced, it’s much, much cheaper than a new airplane (which Delta would need to buy seats for too).


The AD, if I’m not mistaken, specifically mandated replacement not modified. New seats are very expensive and combined with lease costs it makes keeping the 717 a less attractive option than a other paid for aircraft. The name of the game right now is to reduce cash outlays where ever possible.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:00 am

FlyingViking wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.



Not the first time that happened. Just look up history of the VFW-614. Sad, sad, sad but makes financial sense.


That would give Hawaiian a large number of frames for replacement of their 717's. Qantas had been rumored to have been looking for more as well a while back.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:11 am

Biophobe99 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.


I think Boeing makes money on 717 support, otherwise they wouldn’t provide those parts and services. Nevertheless, RR would never let the 717 program be terminated early. They desperately need the cash flow.

Biophobe99 wrote:

It was mentioned up thread. Essentially the seats on the 717 must be replaced. Seats are very expensive which may be part of the reason DL is trying to rid themselves of some/all 717s.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/102075468


Who said they seats can’t be modified? Even if they do need to be replaced, it’s much, much cheaper than a new airplane (which Delta would need to buy seats for too).


The AD, if I’m not mistaken, specifically mandated replacement not modified. New seats are very expensive and combined with lease costs it makes keeping the 717 a less attractive option than a other paid for aircraft. The name of the game right now is to reduce cash outlays where ever possible.


How much do you think seats cost?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:49 am

sxf24 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

I think Boeing makes money on 717 support, otherwise they wouldn’t provide those parts and services. Nevertheless, RR would never let the 717 program be terminated early. They desperately need the cash flow.



Who said they seats can’t be modified? Even if they do need to be replaced, it’s much, much cheaper than a new airplane (which Delta would need to buy seats for too).


The AD, if I’m not mistaken, specifically mandated replacement not modified. New seats are very expensive and combined with lease costs it makes keeping the 717 a less attractive option than a other paid for aircraft. The name of the game right now is to reduce cash outlays where ever possible.


How much do you think seats cost?


$3K for an economy seat, $5K for premium economy, $10K US 1st, $ 60K lie flat seats, and up from there.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-much- ... ass-seats/
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:52 am

sxf24 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

I think Boeing makes money on 717 support, otherwise they wouldn’t provide those parts and services. Nevertheless, RR would never let the 717 program be terminated early. They desperately need the cash flow.



Who said they seats can’t be modified? Even if they do need to be replaced, it’s much, much cheaper than a new airplane (which Delta would need to buy seats for too).


The AD, if I’m not mistaken, specifically mandated replacement not modified. New seats are very expensive and combined with lease costs it makes keeping the 717 a less attractive option than a other paid for aircraft. The name of the game right now is to reduce cash outlays where ever possible.


How much do you think seats cost?


Anywhere from $3k to $5k per seat set. At the low end it would cost DL about $5.5 million for the seats on all 91 717s. That doesn’t include certification, customization, installation or out of service costs. While a few million dollars is chump change to a multi billion dollar company in normal times, now it’s an added expense in addition to the lease costs when DL is doing almost anything it can to staunch the flow of red ink.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:36 pm

Biophobe99 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:

The AD, if I’m not mistaken, specifically mandated replacement not modified. New seats are very expensive and combined with lease costs it makes keeping the 717 a less attractive option than a other paid for aircraft. The name of the game right now is to reduce cash outlays where ever possible.


How much do you think seats cost?


Anywhere from $3k to $5k per seat set. At the low end it would cost DL about $5.5 million for the seats on all 91 717s. That doesn’t include certification, customization, installation or out of service costs. While a few million dollars is chump change to a multi billion dollar company in normal times, now it’s an added expense in addition to the lease costs when DL is doing almost anything it can to staunch the flow of red ink.


That’s a very, very high estimate. I think it costs Delta less to do an entire retrofit on a narrowbody airplane, with lavs, galleys, bins and sidewalls. Remember, Delta is the best negotiator in the world and TechOps can do some incredible things.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:49 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

How much do you think seats cost?


Anywhere from $3k to $5k per seat set. At the low end it would cost DL about $5.5 million for the seats on all 91 717s. That doesn’t include certification, customization, installation or out of service costs. While a few million dollars is chump change to a multi billion dollar company in normal times, now it’s an added expense in addition to the lease costs when DL is doing almost anything it can to staunch the flow of red ink.


That’s a very, very high estimate. I think it costs Delta less to do an entire retrofit on a narrowbody airplane, with lavs, galleys, bins and sidewalls. Remember, Delta is the best negotiator in the world and TechOps can do some incredible things.


I think you misread- $5.5 million for new seats for an entire fleet of 91 717s is not high at all. Again he said for the fleet not 5.5 million per aircraft.

Delta spent $770 million to refurbish 225 752, 738s, A319s, and A320s. (source). That is just under $3.5 million per aircraft. Obviously just a rough average, some planes got more attention and some got less.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:58 pm

Polot wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:

Anywhere from $3k to $5k per seat set. At the low end it would cost DL about $5.5 million for the seats on all 91 717s. That doesn’t include certification, customization, installation or out of service costs. While a few million dollars is chump change to a multi billion dollar company in normal times, now it’s an added expense in addition to the lease costs when DL is doing almost anything it can to staunch the flow of red ink.


That’s a very, very high estimate. I think it costs Delta less to do an entire retrofit on a narrowbody airplane, with lavs, galleys, bins and sidewalls. Remember, Delta is the best negotiator in the world and TechOps can do some incredible things.


I think you misread- $5.5 million for new seats for an entire fleet of 91 717s is not high at all. Again he said for the fleet not 5.5 million per aircraft.

Delta spent $770 million to refurbish 225 752, 738s, A319s, and A320s. (source). That is just under $3.5 million per aircraft. Obviously just a rough average, some planes got more attention and some got less.


$3-5K per seat ($30-50M total) is high and $5 million for the entire fleet is unrealistically low. The real number is somewhere in the middle and less than the cost of a single new airplane.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:00 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Polot wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

That’s a very, very high estimate. I think it costs Delta less to do an entire retrofit on a narrowbody airplane, with lavs, galleys, bins and sidewalls. Remember, Delta is the best negotiator in the world and TechOps can do some incredible things.


I think you misread- $5.5 million for new seats for an entire fleet of 91 717s is not high at all. Again he said for the fleet not 5.5 million per aircraft.

Delta spent $770 million to refurbish 225 752, 738s, A319s, and A320s. (source). That is just under $3.5 million per aircraft. Obviously just a rough average, some planes got more attention and some got less.


$3-5K per seat ($30-50M total) is high and $5 million for the entire fleet is unrealistically low. The real number is somewhere in the middle and less than the cost of a single new airplane.

He said $3-5K per a seat set, which I assume means the block of 2 or 3 seats. I agree that $5 mil is too low though.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:02 pm

Here is the scoop on the seats issue. Delta is not buying any new seats in the imminent future. Currently there is ONE aircraft mod program going forward. The A220 mod program. I would guess that if this virus doesn't turn around soon the 717 could get parked over this seat issue. It doesn't matter if Boeing takes them back for a swap with Max or 787's or free 747's. I would not expect to see very many capital investment projects in the near future.
 
drew777
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:08 pm

As a passenger I'd much rather see them start picking up those Neos that AirAsia won't take delivery of. I don't see how any airline could get financing for near term deliveries though.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:16 pm

Take it for what its worth:

in the official MD88 & MD90 retirement press release, the closing statement says:
"Delta continues to evaluate its broader fleet plan and will consider additional aircraft retirements to focus on a modern, more simplified fleet going forward."
https://news.delta.com/delta-retire-md- ... leets-june

Thus, 717 is certainly part of said evaluation
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:16 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.


Don't know about other operators, but Hawaiian would be difficult to persuade. Basically, they run an island-hopper operation, and BR715 is an enabler of short cycles and quick turn-arounds, as it manages to cool (sufficiently) fast enough, while other modern jet engines apparently don't.

This topic has been debated on a.net till folks were blue in the face. Basically, Hawaiian appears to have no obvious Plan B, as far as direct replacement of 717 is concerned; their only clear path is sourcing other 717's -- preferably with less cycles, and less exposure to salt-water spray. Once 717's are gone, they would have to change their mode of operations, and they would hate that.
One option, debated here, was to have surplus 737's or A320's sitting around, and crews would swap their "hot" plane for a "cold" one between hops. That would be an enormous outlay of capital for low productivity. Another would be to run turboprops, probably in some sort of combi configurations (otherwise, not enough space for surfboards, cargo, etc.) -- that would mean a loss of seat capacity.

Unless nature and volumes of Hawaii interisland operations change dramatically -- 717 is the optimum airplane, and Hawaiian is married to it.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:23 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
How much could Boeing save per year, if they could stop the entire 717 service operations immediately incl. the scraping of all spar parts, simulators etc.?

If all 717 operators would return their planes and switch to 737MAX, they would still earn the service fees for a similar number of airplanes.

Boeing has enough unsellable 737 whitetails on stock. It wouldn't have an cashflow impact, to give them for free to the 717 operators.


Don't know about other operators, but Hawaiian would be difficult to persuade. Basically, they run an island-hopper operation, and BR715 is an enabler of short cycles and quick turn-arounds, as it manages to cool (sufficiently) fast enough, while other modern jet engines apparently don't.

This topic has been debated on a.net till folks were blue in the face. Basically, Hawaiian appears to have no obvious Plan B, as far as direct replacement of 717 is concerned; their only clear path is sourcing other 717's -- preferably with less cycles, and less exposure to salt-water spray. Once 717's are gone, they would have to change their mode of operations, and they would hate that.
One option, debated here, was to have surplus 737's or A320's sitting around, and crews would swap their "hot" plane for a "cold" one between hops. That would be an enormous outlay of capital for low productivity. Another would be to run turboprops, probably in some sort of combi configurations (otherwise, not enough space for surfboards, cargo, etc.) -- that would mean a loss of seat capacity.

Unless nature and volumes of Hawaii interisland operations change dramatically -- 717 is the optimum airplane, and Hawaiian is married to it.


Hawaiian basically has two options for now. One, keeping the 717s. Two, keeping the 717s. And that is no joke..............
There is a slim change Hawaiian could use the Airbus A220 if the engines cool down between flights and I do NOT know if would happen as that would be more expensive than replacing passenger seat on the 717s. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
cessna2
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu May 14, 2020 9:38 pm

From today's Pilot Memo.

"717 – Over the next two years we are currently projected to operate half of the 717-fleet (approximately
30-45 aircraft). Working closely with Network on forward deployment, we have made the difficult decision
to close two 717 categories; NYC and MSP. Flying in NYC is transitioning to the 220 and 320 fleets and
flying in MSP will be increased on the 73N and 320."

Also heard there will be more fleet announcements coming soon. I'm sure DL and Boeing are working on something, now that the 777's are being retired.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu May 14, 2020 9:49 pm

cessna2 wrote:
From today's Pilot Memo.

"717 – Over the next two years we are currently projected to operate half of the 717-fleet (approximately
30-45 aircraft). Working closely with Network on forward deployment, we have made the difficult decision
to close two 717 categories; NYC and MSP. Flying in NYC is transitioning to the 220 and 320 fleets and
flying in MSP will be increased on the 73N and 320."

Also heard there will be more fleet announcements coming soon. I'm sure DL and Boeing are working on something, now that the 777's are being retired.


1) Curious what operating half of the fleet means. Half get retired/stored? Or there is maybe a rotation with the whole fleet operating but only 50% at any time?
2) Any idea on the other announcements? Appears 764s and some/most 763s are safe. Probably 757 and A320s at risk.
 
SELMER40
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Thu May 14, 2020 11:47 pm

sxf24 wrote:
$3-5K per seat ($30-50M total) is high and $5 million for the entire fleet is unrealistically low. The real number is somewhere in the middle and less than the cost of a single new airplane.

Can MD90 seats be used in B717?
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 12:56 am

jbs2886 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
From today's Pilot Memo.

"717 – Over the next two years we are currently projected to operate half of the 717-fleet (approximately
30-45 aircraft). Working closely with Network on forward deployment, we have made the difficult decision
to close two 717 categories; NYC and MSP. Flying in NYC is transitioning to the 220 and 320 fleets and
flying in MSP will be increased on the 73N and 320."

Also heard there will be more fleet announcements coming soon. I'm sure DL and Boeing are working on something, now that the 777's are being retired.


1) Curious what operating half of the fleet means. Half get retired/stored? Or there is maybe a rotation with the whole fleet operating but only 50% at any time?
2) Any idea on the other announcements? Appears 764s and some/most 763s are safe. Probably 757 and A320s at risk.

1) Cheaper to park half and maintain fully the other half. Flying all low utilization means overhauls on the clock instead of cycles or hours.
2) I do not know. Some 757s and A320s will go. I think the A319s could be parked. But I cannot find enough obvious candidates for the quantity that must be parked.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
acavpics
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 1:56 am

Ordering a 737 MAX at this time period is honestly the dumbest decision one could make. At least wait for the plane to be re-certified.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 6:28 am

Six pages of speculative posts, and nobody has mentioned one very-obvious marketing potential for the 717 at a time of COVID-19: One Hundred Percent Fresh Air. Zero recirculated air.

Or maybe that just emphasizes that most other aircraft have some level of recirculation.

Back in the day when I would get off an MD80 and get on a 717, I can tell you that it made a noticeable difference. Mock me all you want. It did. And I tended to notice the effect first, before thinking about why.

DL could talk about its modern fleet having very little recirculation, and then say we have X aircraft in the fleet that even have 100-percent fresh air with no recirculation. We can't promise that that's safer, because the recirc air is HEPA-filtered, but it is a fact that there's no air recirc on the 717s. Just wanted our customers to know that. (And at the temperatures that the bleed air comes off the engines, it's pretty dang sterile.
An autoclave gets to at least 250 degrees Fahrenheit; bleed air comes off the engines at over 400 degrees Fahrenheit.)
 
JonesNL
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 9:04 am

From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 10:44 am

JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?


Good luck getting Airbus to spend $ billions on a new derivative just now.
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