Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 11
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20285
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 12:36 pm

acavpics wrote:
Ordering a 737 MAX at this time period is honestly the dumbest decision one could make. At least wait for the plane to be re-certified.

With traffic recovering, Albeit off almost zero, prices and terms will never be better. I disagree. It is a crazy like a fox wise move.

The goal is preserve short term cash by ceasing to maintain planes (requires deregistration), long term park some (costs money to preserve, so only preserve the better frames), and unfortunately furlough. But there will be a recovery. If Delta can secure new aircraft at lower total cost to fly with the incredible terms that I speculate are being offered...

Not buying MAX now might be the unwise decision for airlines that can cheaply onboard them. Since DL has a massive fleet of new 739, a good fit. Buy with lots of options and the ability to swap -8/-9/-10 and Delta could be well set for deliveries in 3 to 5 years.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1602
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Six pages of speculative posts, and nobody has mentioned one very-obvious marketing potential for the 717 at a time of COVID-19: One Hundred Percent Fresh Air. Zero recirculated air.


That might be the most interesting thing I've read on here in a long time (serious, not snark). I had no idea.

It's too bad DL has noted they'll only be flying about 1/2 the current fleet for the foreseeable future.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 12:48 pm

scbriml wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?


Good luck getting Airbus to spend $ billions on a new derivative just now.


Let me fix that for you:

Good luck getting Airbus to spend $ billions on a new derivative of a loss-leader just now. People seem to forget that the A220 is losing money per unit.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 12:49 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Six pages of speculative posts, and nobody has mentioned one very-obvious marketing potential for the 717 at a time of COVID-19: One Hundred Percent Fresh Air. Zero recirculated air.

Or maybe that just emphasizes that most other aircraft have some level of recirculation.

Back in the day when I would get off an MD80 and get on a 717, I can tell you that it made a noticeable difference. Mock me all you want. It did. And I tended to notice the effect first, before thinking about why.

DL could talk about its modern fleet having very little recirculation, and then say we have X aircraft in the fleet that even have 100-percent fresh air with no recirculation. We can't promise that that's safer, because the recirc air is HEPA-filtered, but it is a fact that there's no air recirc on the 717s. Just wanted our customers to know that. (And at the temperatures that the bleed air comes off the engines, it's pretty dang sterile.
An autoclave gets to at least 250 degrees Fahrenheit; bleed air comes off the engines at over 400 degrees Fahrenheit.)


What is special about 717 air? Bleedless like the 787? I definitely do notice a different on that aircraft.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
randomdude83
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 1:09 pm

JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?


An A220-500 would be more expensive to purchase actually because of Airbus. As many shared. Airbus would have to put development cost into it and will probably assume that airlines are very interested so won't bother with discounts and will advertise fuel efficiency when the over all picture isn't always about fuel efficiency but the actual cost of operating the aircraft including purchase price.

Also Airbus is going to be killing the a319 for sure if they launch the A225 and thats probably why they've been delaying it.

On the other hand, the 737MAX had a horrible start, but the reasons for the crashes are now understood and regardless of what everyone wants to say, can be resolved and addressed especially after the scrutiny Boeing is going through from the FAA/etc

So Boeing is likely going to want to sell at least some off the lot brand new Maxes on top of the brand new ones. They'll be seriously discounted.

Also to add, Delta has a giant 737 base. The Max may require additional training but the over all is, any NG Certified pilot should in the end be able to fly the MAX.

And finally, isn't delta flying the LEAP engine already on the NEOS? So really, if Boeing can come to terms. Delta would remove one more type (717) and will have an aircraft that can work with current pilot base and the engine type that will be already in fleet.

To me, it's Timing, not if but when.

Probably delta will pull the trigger once the MAX gets its certification.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 1:14 pm

NWAESC wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Six pages of speculative posts, and nobody has mentioned one very-obvious marketing potential for the 717 at a time of COVID-19: One Hundred Percent Fresh Air. Zero recirculated air.


That might be the most interesting thing I've read on here in a long time (serious, not snark). I had no idea.

It's too bad DL has noted they'll only be flying about 1/2 the current fleet for the foreseeable future.


It's frequently been discussed that carriers and manufacturers don't make comparisons about safety. It's been that way for decades. To imply that a type or carrier is more safe simultaneously implies that others are less safe, and making people feel less safe is not good for the industry. Example:

DUBAI — Airbus Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer forcefully rejected the notion that his company is benefiting from the grounding of Boeing’s 737 Max fleet while speaking to CNBC during the Dubai Air Show.

“I really need to correct that cultural belief. This does not benefit anyone in this industry, the least of which would be Airbus,” Scherer told CNBC’s Hadley Gamble on Sunday.

“It’s a tragedy, it is an issue for Boeing to resolve, but it is not good for competitors to see problems on any one particular airplane type.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/17/airbus- ... o-one.html
 
global1
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 1:46 pm

In an employee virtual town hall meeting which aired yesterday afternoon, Ed Bastian elluded to an announcement in the next couple of days involving Boeing.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19178
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 1:56 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Good luck getting Airbus to spend $ billions on a new derivative of a loss-leader just now. People seem to forget that the A220 is losing money per unit.


It wouldn't matter if it was printing money, Airbus doesn't have spare billions to spend on a derivative just now.

randomdude83 wrote:
Also Airbus is going to be killing the a319 for sure if they launch the A225 and thats probably why they've been delaying it.


The A319 was already effectively dead, so doesn't require killing. Recent sales: 2016 = 4, 2017 = 7; 2018 = 24, 2019 = -6.

When Airbus took over the C Series and renamed it the A220, they said they would prioritise A220 sales over the A319. In other words, if an airline issued an RFP for A319-sized planes, Airbus would offer the A220. If a customer insisted on the A319 (e.g. Spirit), then Airbus would sell it. So the reality is, Airbus already announced the end of the A319 (unless the customer absolutely wants it).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1602
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 2:45 pm

global1 wrote:
In an employee virtual town hall meeting which aired yesterday afternoon, Ed Bastian elluded to an announcement in the next couple of days involving Boeing.


I saw that. I wonder if the 777 retirement was what he meant.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
When Airbus took over the C Series and renamed it the A220, they said they would prioritise A220 sales over the A319. In other words, if an airline issued an RFP for A319-sized planes, Airbus would offer the A220. If a customer insisted on the A319 (e.g. Spirit), then Airbus would sell it. So the reality is, Airbus already announced the end of the A319 (unless the customer absolutely wants it).


It's quite possible that carriers operating 320/321s but not A220s will want 319s for pilot and parts commonality - just as a carrier operating 737 variants will want MAX 7s. These shrinks may not sell in big numbers but they will sell.
 
global1
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:15 pm

Bastian's comment was made after the retirement of the 777 fleet had been announced.

I think something's cooked. Maybe Boeing will take the 717's and 777's off Delta's hands as part of an order. Boeing is hurting on several fronts. Not the least of which are the troubles and cancellations in the MAX program. They've been wanting to score a win with Delta and Delta is always receptive to a killer deal.

Just speculation.
Last edited by global1 on Fri May 15, 2020 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24615
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Good luck getting Airbus to spend $ billions on a new derivative of a loss-leader just now. People seem to forget that the A220 is losing money per unit.

It wouldn't matter if it was printing money, Airbus doesn't have spare billions to spend on a derivative just now.

randomdude83 wrote:
Also Airbus is going to be killing the a319 for sure if they launch the A225 and thats probably why they've been delaying it.

The A319 was already effectively dead, so doesn't require killing. Recent sales: 2016 = 4, 2017 = 7; 2018 = 24, 2019 = -6.

When Airbus took over the C Series and renamed it the A220, they said they would prioritise A220 sales over the A319. In other words, if an airline issued an RFP for A319-sized planes, Airbus would offer the A220. If a customer insisted on the A319 (e.g. Spirit), then Airbus would sell it. So the reality is, Airbus already announced the end of the A319 (unless the customer absolutely wants it).

I agree with Steve's points. A319neo is already certified ( https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ion-f.html ). No use in arguing about it being 'killed', the heavy lifting has been done, if customers want it then Airbus will sell it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 5905
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:23 pm

global1 wrote:
Bastian's comment was made after the retirement of the 777 fleet had been announced.

I think something's cooked. Maybe Boeing will take the 717's and 777's off Delta's hands as part of an order. Boeing is hurting on several fronts. Not the least of which are the troubles and cancellations in the MAX program. They've been wanting to score a win with Delta and Delta is always receptive to a killer deal.

Just speculation.


I'm just skeptical about this considering past statements about Boeing only to order more Airbus aircraft. I hope it isn't an announcement to phase out all Boeing aircraft.
 
adtall
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:53 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:23 pm

global1 wrote:
Bastian's comment was made after the retirement of the 777 fleet had been announced.

I think something's cooked. Maybe Boeing will take the 717's and 777's off Delta's hands as part of an order. Boeing is hurting on several fronts. Not the least of which are the troubles and cancellations in the MAX program. They've been wanting to score a win with Delta and Delta is always receptive to a killer deal.

Just speculation.


The town hall where Ed Bastian made that comment was Wednesday and the 777 announcement was Thursday. It's very likely he was referring to the 777s, especially as he said he was only giving Boeing a heads up.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24615
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
When Airbus took over the C Series and renamed it the A220, they said they would prioritise A220 sales over the A319. In other words, if an airline issued an RFP for A319-sized planes, Airbus would offer the A220. If a customer insisted on the A319 (e.g. Spirit), then Airbus would sell it. So the reality is, Airbus already announced the end of the A319 (unless the customer absolutely wants it).


It's quite possible that carriers operating 320/321s but not A220s will want 319s for pilot and parts commonality - just as a carrier operating 737 variants will want MAX 7s. These shrinks may not sell in big numbers but they will sell.

I agree to this as well. A and B have produced A319neo and MAX7 prototypes. They expect to sell some.

global1 wrote:
Bastian's comment was made after the retirement of the 777 fleet had been announced.

I think something's cooked. Maybe Boeing will take the 717's and 777's off Delta's hands as part of an order. Boeing is hurting on several fronts. Not the least of which is the trouble and order cancellations of the MAX program. They've been wanting to score a win with Delta and Delta is always receptive to a killer deal.

Just speculation.

DL's announcement that 777 is retired kind of kills any negotiation power DL had for this fleet. Yet I think Boeing would want a big MAX order in the books so much that they will be willing to make a great deal even if it means eating some cash flow from 717 leases.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2413
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:42 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Six pages of speculative posts, and nobody has mentioned one very-obvious marketing potential for the 717 at a time of COVID-19: One Hundred Percent Fresh Air. Zero recirculated air.


That might be the most interesting thing I've read on here in a long time (serious, not snark). I had no idea.

It's too bad DL has noted they'll only be flying about 1/2 the current fleet for the foreseeable future.


It's frequently been discussed that carriers and manufacturers don't make comparisons about safety. It's been that way for decades. To imply that a type or carrier is more safe simultaneously implies that others are less safe, and making people feel less safe is not good for the industry. Example:

DUBAI — Airbus Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer forcefully rejected the notion that his company is benefiting from the grounding of Boeing’s 737 Max fleet while speaking to CNBC during the Dubai Air Show.

“I really need to correct that cultural belief. This does not benefit anyone in this industry, the least of which would be Airbus,” Scherer told CNBC’s Hadley Gamble on Sunday.

“It’s a tragedy, it is an issue for Boeing to resolve, but it is not good for competitors to see problems on any one particular airplane type.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/17/airbus- ... o-one.html


100% - also an airline marketing that one aircraft and their fleet is "extra safe" implies the other 90% is not. Not really confidence inspiring.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19178
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 4:55 pm

adtall wrote:
global1 wrote:
Bastian's comment was made after the retirement of the 777 fleet had been announced.

I think something's cooked. Maybe Boeing will take the 717's and 777's off Delta's hands as part of an order. Boeing is hurting on several fronts. Not the least of which are the troubles and cancellations in the MAX program. They've been wanting to score a win with Delta and Delta is always receptive to a killer deal.

Just speculation.


The town hall where Ed Bastian made that comment was Wednesday and the 777 announcement was Thursday. It's very likely he was referring to the 777s, especially as he said he was only giving Boeing a heads up.


Typical a.net - two people post diametrically opposite statements and neither offers supporting sources or evidence. Most of us have no way of knowing which of you is correct.

But I have one question for adtail, why would DL need to give Boeing a heads up about retiring the 777?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 5:08 pm

I could see Boeing taking the 717's off DElta's hands and prompty offering
Hawaiian Air a killer deal for those frames. They seem to be perfect island hoppers.

As for the 777's, I could see boeing offering them killer deals to airlines like Omni Air
or even Atlas Air for their pax charters ops.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24615
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 5:21 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
I could see Boeing taking the 717's off DElta's hands and prompty offering
Hawaiian Air a killer deal for those frames. They seem to be perfect island hoppers.

There's a lot of issues with that.

HA operates 20 717s, DL has 91.

Boeing is getting positive cash flow on the 717 leases, which is something they desperately need.

Boeing will be willing to make a deal to get a big MAX order, but only up to a certain point.

If the deal isn't good enough, Boeing is better off sitting on the 717s and milking DL for the positive cash flow.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1602
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 5:24 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
100% - also an airline marketing that one aircraft and their fleet is "extra safe" implies the other 90% is not. Not really confidence-inspiring.


My earlier comment was about the mechanics of the 717 thmselves, and not so much the marketing angle.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2413
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 5:28 pm

NWAESC wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
100% - also an airline marketing that one aircraft and their fleet is "extra safe" implies the other 90% is not. Not really confidence-inspiring.


My earlier comment was about the mechanics of the 717 thmselves, and not so much the marketing angle.


My comment was not in reference to yours...yours was just in the thread.
 
adtall
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:53 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 6:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
adtall wrote:
global1 wrote:
Bastian's comment was made after the retirement of the 777 fleet had been announced.

I think something's cooked. Maybe Boeing will take the 717's and 777's off Delta's hands as part of an order. Boeing is hurting on several fronts. Not the least of which are the troubles and cancellations in the MAX program. They've been wanting to score a win with Delta and Delta is always receptive to a killer deal.

Just speculation.


The town hall where Ed Bastian made that comment was Wednesday and the 777 announcement was Thursday. It's very likely he was referring to the 777s, especially as he said he was only giving Boeing a heads up.


Typical a.net - two people post diametrically opposite statements and neither offers supporting sources or evidence. Most of us have no way of knowing which of you is correct.

But I have one question for adtail, why would DL need to give Boeing a heads up about retiring the 777?


The 777 announcement was Thursday morning for the US East Coast, that's undisputed. I'm not going to post an internal town hall, so can't give you a primary source. However, PSUDTWSCE posted in the Delta Plans to Emerge a "Smaller Carrier" thread on the front page in post 1023 prior to the 777 announcement that there were rumors about the phone call per APC. He posted that per airliners' time stamp at 3:18 AM Thursday. I am assuming airliners runs on Zulu time, please correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I'm trying to stay within airliners' time stamps for consistency. Here's his post in full:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Rumors per APC about giving Boeing a "heads-up" about an announcement coming by next week.

Could be related to any of the following:
1) Lease terminations / parking of the 717 fleet
2) Parking of the 777 fleet
3) Retirement of significant amount of 757/763 aircraft


FlyGuyNash posted in the next post, 1024 in the same thread at 3:55 AM Thursday, and I'm quoting again in full, that:

FlyGuyNash wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Rumors per APC about giving Boeing a "heads-up" about an announcement coming by next week.

Could be related to any of the following:
1) Lease terminations / parking of the 717 fleet
2) Parking of the 777 fleet
3) Retirement of significant amount of 757/763 aircraft


Per the video Ed had said he was on the phone with Boeing CEO giving him a heads up of an announcement within the next couple days. I would expect the announcement by Friday.

Curious as to what Boeing would need a heads up on, the only logical thing I can think of is returning the 717s. I don't understand why Ed would call Boeing to tell them they are planning to park 18 777 or any portion of the 75/76 fleet since that would not surprise many people anyway.


The initial post on the Delta to Permanently Retire the 777 Fleet thread was at 12:51 PM, and Ed Russell's tweet cited there was at 8:40 AM, so assuming the initial post was very close after the tweet that would indicate that airliners does run on Zulu, so the two posts above were made Wednesday night here in the US, well before the announcement about Delta getting rid of the 777s. As to why Ed Bastian felt the need to give Boeing a heads up, you'd have to ask him.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1602
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 6:47 pm

That letter was on Twitter w/in minutes of it having hit our DL inboxes.

Why would he call Boeing? Who knows. My guess is just to give them a heads up.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 7:27 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

Let the scope clause go. DL's losing $100M/day and fighting for its life. Hundreds of pilot jobs will be lost. It doesn't hold much weight at this point.

Per discussion on APC, there's a huge decrease in YOY projected November pilot requirement amongst the 717. I'd be very surprised if the fleet didn't start to shrink anytime soon.



I will let the scope clause go when DALPA lets the scope clause go


DL’s losing $100M/day, fighting for its life. Only on a.net is the scope issue a major obstacle. If you read APC, the consensus among many/most of the pilots - ALPA voting members is the 717 fleet is gone.


DLs fleet cuts are announced. Several fleets, including (gasp) the 777s, are gone. 717s are not
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8156
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 8:06 pm

It sounds like with what was announced yesterday, that DL intends to fly between 30-45 of the 717 fleet for the next two years. Flying to be focused at ATL & DTW as pilot bases in NYC and MSP are to close and flying filled by other types.
We can speculate about everything else but that what announced and how they intend to staff the aircraft going forward in the near-term.

Reading between the lines you see they said next two years which would take it up to the point the seat AD needs to be addressed.
Will DL keep 50% of the fleet permanently parked in storage or will they reactive as demand warrants?
Will DL be negotiating an early return / lease termination of the parked portion of the fleet with Boeing?
 
Vicenza
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 9:39 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?


On the other hand, the 737MAX had a horrible start, but the reasons for the crashes are now understood and regardless of what everyone wants to say, can be resolved and addressed especially after the scrutiny Boeing is going through from the FAA/etc


Perhaps, but if it is as easily resolvable as you (and certain other members keep repeating) are saying, why has it taken over a year without it being 'resolved'.....and which had nothing whatever to do with the this covid19 crisis.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1602
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 9:42 pm

This of course took a backseat to the 7000 pilots and 777 headlines, but IMO, where they are moving the flying is telling too.

My guess is they will add flying back as demand warrants.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
randomdude83
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 10:04 pm

Vicenza wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?


On the other hand, the 737MAX had a horrible start, but the reasons for the crashes are now understood and regardless of what everyone wants to say, can be resolved and addressed especially after the scrutiny Boeing is going through from the FAA/etc


Perhaps, but if it is as easily resolvable as you (and certain other members keep repeating) are saying, why has it taken over a year without it being 'resolved'.....and which had nothing whatever to do with the this covid19 crisis.


I understand the FAA and others are conducting a FULL recertification of every system of the MAX. not just the MCAS/AOA sensor issue that were the root cause of the incidents.
 
KMCOFlyer
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 10:10 pm

jagraham wrote:
DLs fleet cuts are announced. Several fleets, including (gasp) the 777s, are gone. 717s are not


Half of the 717s are not planned to be used next Summer as the plan says only 35-40 will be in active service.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 11:20 pm

jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:


I will let the scope clause go when DALPA lets the scope clause go


DL’s losing $100M/day, fighting for its life. Only on a.net is the scope issue a major obstacle. If you read APC, the consensus among many/most of the pilots - ALPA voting members is the 717 fleet is gone.


DLs fleet cuts are announced. Several fleets, including (gasp) the 777s, are gone. 717s are not


Didn't you assert that (paraphrasing) DL would not phase out the 717 because of the scope agreement? So is it your belief now that DL will be parking tons of E75?

Reality is, for at least two years, DL is parking about half the 717 fleet. The leases on half to two-thirds of the 717 fleet are maturing in the next several years. These planes are basically worth scrap -- it's quite possible DL struck a deal with Boeing. For example, Boeing may be forgoing its leasing revenue on inactive jets while requiring DL to maintain the aircraft and pay storage fees. We will know more when WN/DL release their reports. It's also possible DL is outright returning the 717 coming off-lease, but got cute with its verbiage in the PR.
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Fri May 15, 2020 11:50 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

DL’s losing $100M/day, fighting for its life. Only on a.net is the scope issue a major obstacle. If you read APC, the consensus among many/most of the pilots - ALPA voting members is the 717 fleet is gone.


DLs fleet cuts are announced. Several fleets, including (gasp) the 777s, are gone. 717s are not


Didn't you assert that (paraphrasing) DL would not phase out the 717 because of the scope agreement? So is it your belief now that DL will be parking tons of E75?

Reality is, for at least two years, DL is parking about half the 717 fleet. The leases on half to two-thirds of the 717 fleet are maturing in the next several years. These planes are basically worth scrap -- it's quite possible DL struck a deal with Boeing. For example, Boeing may be forgoing its leasing revenue on inactive jets while requiring DL to maintain the aircraft and pay storage fees. We will know more when WN/DL release their reports. It's also possible DL is outright returning the 717 coming off-lease, but got cute with its verbiage in the PR.


I've seen in some places on a.net that the A220-100s also count along with 717s. If that is correct, with 45 A221s (30+ delivered already, preCOVID planned to receive all this year) they will not have to give up any regional jets.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9050
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 5:15 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

What is special about 717 air? Bleedless like the 787? I definitely do notice a different on that aircraft.


It's bleed air, but they just exhaust all the air that comes in without recirculating it. There's a 3-wheel air conditioning pack, and a single cabin outflow valve, whose controls, like most airliners, normally function automatically to regulate the cabin altitude, but can also be operated manually. The 3-wheel pack means that the turbine, compressor and fan of the air cycle machine are all on a single shaft, so they eliminate the extra ground cooling fan(s).
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 5:25 am

randomdude83 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?

.

And finally, isn't delta flying the LEAP engine already on the NEOS? So really, if Boeing can come to terms. Delta would remove one more type (717) and will have an aircraft that can work with current pilot base and the engine type that will be already in fleet.

To me, it's Timing, not if but when.

Probably delta will pull the trigger once the MAX gets its certification.

Delta doesn’t haven’t any NEOs, and the ones they are getting will have the Pratt GTFs. https://news.delta.com/delta-selects-ai ... et-renewal

Delta will also run an MRO for GTFs. https://enginewise.com/pratt-whitney-ex ... a-techops/

That’s not to say they won’t order MAXes...I think it is likely. They need something in the 160-170 seat range to replace some 717/MD88/90/320/eventually 738 flying (and if they can work a deal now to dump 717s faster it would help). 221/223 to 739/321 is a big leap, and I don’t see the A225 coming out anytime soon. 7M8 fits nicely in there.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 6:15 am

No 737 MAX. I'm not flying on one of these deathtraps for at least two years until they enter into service. And I think Boeing is hoping that the COVID-19 crisis will make people forget about the 737 MAX.
 
LHA320
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 9:42 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
From a simplification perspective would it not be wiser to push Airbus into developing an A225 instead of adding another type to the fleet?

.

And finally, isn't delta flying the LEAP engine already on the NEOS? So really, if Boeing can come to terms. Delta would remove one more type (717) and will have an aircraft that can work with current pilot base and the engine type that will be already in fleet.

To me, it's Timing, not if but when.

Probably delta will pull the trigger once the MAX gets its certification.


Delta doesn’t haven’t any NEOs, and the ones they are getting will have the Pratt GTFs. https://news.delta.com/delta-selects-ai ... et-renewal

Delta will also run an MRO for GTFs. https://enginewise.com/pratt-whitney-ex ... a-techops/

That’s not to say they won’t order MAXes...I think it is likely. They need something in the 160-170 seat range to replace some 717/MD88/90/320/eventually 738 flying (and if they can work a deal now to dump 717s faster it would help). 221/223 to 739/321 is a big leap, and I don’t see the A225 coming out anytime soon. 7M8 fits nicely in there.


Boeing has the advantage that they can include the 717 leases into the negotiations on the MAX with DL. But I would‘t write Airbus off that easy. Delta has a lot of old A320s for which Airbus could offer a buy-back deal. In addition to that I think we will see some cancellations of neo orders in the next few month offering delivery slots which Airbus would love to give to a big customer like DL. This deal could be very flexible for DL to decide later which A32x family member they really need when the market recovers. From the A320neo to the A321XLR!
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 9:56 am

LHA320 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
.

And finally, isn't delta flying the LEAP engine already on the NEOS? So really, if Boeing can come to terms. Delta would remove one more type (717) and will have an aircraft that can work with current pilot base and the engine type that will be already in fleet.

To me, it's Timing, not if but when.

Probably delta will pull the trigger once the MAX gets its certification.


Delta doesn’t haven’t any NEOs, and the ones they are getting will have the Pratt GTFs. https://news.delta.com/delta-selects-ai ... et-renewal

Delta will also run an MRO for GTFs. https://enginewise.com/pratt-whitney-ex ... a-techops/

That’s not to say they won’t order MAXes...I think it is likely. They need something in the 160-170 seat range to replace some 717/MD88/90/320/eventually 738 flying (and if they can work a deal now to dump 717s faster it would help). 221/223 to 739/321 is a big leap, and I don’t see the A225 coming out anytime soon. 7M8 fits nicely in there.


Boeing has the advantage that they can include the 717 leases into the negotiations on the MAX with DL. But I would‘t write Airbus off that easy. Delta has a lot of old A320s for which Airbus could offer a buy-back deal. In addition to that I think we will see some cancellations of neo orders in the next few month offering delivery slots which Airbus would love to give to a big customer like DL. This deal could be very flexible for DL to decide later which A32x family member they really need when the market recovers. From the A320neo to the A321XLR!

Except, Boeing has a history of buying Airbus planes from airlines in exchange for orders.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 12:19 pm

LHA320 wrote:

Boeing has the advantage that they can include the 717 leases into the negotiations on the MAX with DL. But I would‘t write Airbus off that easy. Delta has a lot of old A320s for which Airbus could offer a buy-back deal.


About 2/3 of DL's A320s are approaching end-of-life, at 27-30 years old. The balance are 17-22 years old, so no great youths. There had been discussion of EOL extensions (IMHO, to preserve capital spending for 339s as 763 replacements, and the A220s) but I don't know how much of that got done. There will be plenty of younger 737NGs and 32xceos on the market which will represent better values for prospective acquirers. Airbus could buy DL A320s and route them right to the scrap yards.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 1:22 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

DL’s losing $100M/day, fighting for its life. Only on a.net is the scope issue a major obstacle. If you read APC, the consensus among many/most of the pilots - ALPA voting members is the 717 fleet is gone.


DLs fleet cuts are announced. Several fleets, including (gasp) the 777s, are gone. 717s are not


Didn't you assert that (paraphrasing) DL would not phase out the 717 because of the scope agreement? So is it your belief now that DL will be parking tons of E75?

Reality is, for at least two years, DL is parking about half the 717 fleet. The leases on half to two-thirds of the 717 fleet are maturing in the next several years. These planes are basically worth scrap -- it's quite possible DL struck a deal with Boeing. For example, Boeing may be forgoing its leasing revenue on inactive jets while requiring DL to maintain the aircraft and pay storage fees. We will know more when WN/DL release their reports. It's also possible DL is outright returning the 717 coming off-lease, but got cute with its verbiage in the PR.


Nobody believes the 717 will be with DL in 2030. But if DL wanted to get rid of the 717 completely, now would have been the perfect time to do it. They didn't. And they are getting rid of the 777s when they just finished upgrading them all to D1. The simple matter of fact is that DL feels they need 110 seaters and they aren't going to purchase and take delivery of all the A221s they need for that for several years.
As for E75 parking, there is a force majeure clause. But it doesn't work forever. I have to ask about that.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 1:33 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It sounds like with what was announced yesterday, that DL intends to fly between 30-45 of the 717 fleet for the next two years. Flying to be focused at ATL & DTW as pilot bases in NYC and MSP are to close and flying filled by other types.
We can speculate about everything else but that what announced and how they intend to staff the aircraft going forward in the near-term.

Reading between the lines you see they said next two years which would take it up to the point the seat AD needs to be addressed.
Will DL keep 50% of the fleet permanently parked in storage or will they reactive as demand warrants?
Will DL be negotiating an early return / lease termination of the parked portion of the fleet with Boeing?


I believe DL will reactivate as demand warrants. Both demand in the 110 seat category and in the 76 seat category. While taking a steady stream of A221s as conditions allow. Noting that the 777 retirement means DL needs more new build A350s first. And yes the seat AD is looming. Will DL swap seats from parked planes? Buy more of what is going in A220s? Or park the whole fleet in two years sort of like what WN did with their 733s when the FAA said their pilots couldn't be certified on 3 different generations of 737s at the same time? We will see . . .

But I wouldn't put it past DL to throw in some early return of some 717s as part of a 737MAX deal.
 
DlTechops
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 2:16 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Six pages of speculative posts, and nobody has mentioned one very-obvious marketing potential for the 717 at a time of COVID-19: One Hundred Percent Fresh Air. Zero recirculated air.

Or maybe that just emphasizes that most other aircraft have some level of recirculation.

Back in the day when I would get off an MD80 and get on a 717, I can tell you that it made a noticeable difference. Mock me all you want. It did. And I tended to notice the effect first, before thinking about why.

DL could talk about its modern fleet having very little recirculation, and then say we have X aircraft in the fleet that even have 100-percent fresh air with no recirculation. We can't promise that that's safer, because the recirc air is HEPA-filtered, but it is a fact that there's no air recirc on the 717s. Just wanted our customers to know that. (And at the temperatures that the bleed air comes off the engines, it's pretty dang sterile.
An autoclave gets to at least 250 degrees Fahrenheit; bleed air comes off the engines at over 400 degrees Fahrenheit.)


What is special about 717 air? Bleedless like the 787? I definitely do notice a different on that aircraft.



the 717 unlike every other aircraft in Deltas fleet doesnt have recirc fans. So bleed air comes off the engines goes through the packs to the cabin and out the outflow valve.. no reusing it no heppa filters none of that in then out lol
Pilots keep passengers safe. We keep the pilots safe.
 
LHA320
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 2:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LHA320 wrote:

Boeing has the advantage that they can include the 717 leases into the negotiations on the MAX with DL. But I would‘t write Airbus off that easy. Delta has a lot of old A320s for which Airbus could offer a buy-back deal.


About 2/3 of DL's A320s are approaching end-of-life, at 27-30 years old. The balance are 17-22 years old, so no great youths. There had been discussion of EOL extensions (IMHO, to preserve capital spending for 339s as 763 replacements, and the A220s) but I don't know how much of that got done. There will be plenty of younger 737NGs and 32xceos on the market which will represent better values for prospective acquirers. Airbus could buy DL A320s and route them right to the scrap yards.


This is exactly what I was thinking of. I don't expect Airbus to buy these aircraft to sell some new aircraft to DL and scrap them. Common practices in the industry as far as I know. And the money they would earn selling the aircraft parts shouldn't be underestimated
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14001
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 4:06 pm

Maybe Delta will reconfigure all 717 and A220 in a new 2-2. Easy cleanable, distance from aisle, between passengers, no table just a bottle holder fllled before flight..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24615
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 4:23 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe Delta will reconfigure all 717 and A220 in a new 2-2. Easy cleanable, distance from aisle, between passengers, no table just a bottle holder fllled before flight..

Scott Hamilton made a comment on twitter saying these kinds of measures are nonsense, and I agree.

The 6 ft / 2 meter rule is to help avoid sneezes and other exhalations of virus from traveling from person to person.

An empty seat is providing 1.5 ft so clearly is inadequate.

A closed air system not designed to remove virus is also inadequate.

One is really taking risks by choosing air travel, IMO.

In general you should be OK but all it takes is one knowing or unknowing infected individual to get on the plane with you.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10718
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 4:45 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe Delta will reconfigure all 717 and A220 in a new 2-2. Easy cleanable, distance from aisle, between passengers, no table just a bottle holder fllled before flight..

That would remove ~20 seats from the planes and likely make them completely unprofitable. Acceptable to cut seats for sale (by blocking middle seats or whatever) in the short term, but if we get to a point where long term the seats need to be cut (as reconfiguring to 2-2 would mean) then DL would just probably cut the A221 and 717 fleets for larger narrow bodies.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14001
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 5:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe Delta will reconfigure all 717 and A220 in a new 2-2. Easy cleanable, distance from aisle, between passengers, no table just a bottle holder fllled before flight..

Scott Hamilton made a comment on twitter saying these kinds of measures are nonsense, and I agree.

The 6 ft / 2 meter rule is to help avoid sneezes and other exhalations of virus from traveling from person to person.

An empty seat is providing 1.5 ft so clearly is inadequate.

A closed air system not designed to remove virus is also inadequate.

One is really taking risks by choosing air travel, IMO.

In general you should be OK but all it takes is one knowing or unknowing infected individual to get on the plane with you.


We are living in times were highly unlikely, impracticle, and overreacting are finding their Waterloo's every week.

Combining personal distancing with airline supplied masks, no catering, new PALL / Donaldson APS cabin air filters, intensive cleaning and pre flight temperature checks are on the agenda.

Image
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.busine ... 20-4%3famp


In weeks w'll have http://www.howcleanisyourairline.com where thousands of people rate all airlines without asking them and millions check it out before booking.

Ignore, look brave, dismiss & go bankrupt. Despite what the O' Leary's and latent Covid deniers put on their twitters now. They'll adjust fast enough to reality. I know.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4500
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 6:50 pm

Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe Delta will reconfigure all 717 and A220 in a new 2-2. Easy cleanable, distance from aisle, between passengers, no table just a bottle holder fllled before flight..

That would remove ~20 seats from the planes and likely make them completely unprofitable. Acceptable to cut seats for sale (by blocking middle seats or whatever) in the short term, but if we get to a point where long term the seats need to be cut (as reconfiguring to 2-2 would mean) then DL would just probably cut the A221 and 717 fleets for larger narrow bodies.

If 2-3 have to become 2-2 then 3-3 will also have to become 2-2
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20285
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 7:44 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It sounds like with what was announced yesterday, that DL intends to fly between 30-45 of the 717 fleet for the next two years. Flying to be focused at ATL & DTW as pilot bases in NYC and MSP are to close and flying filled by other types.
We can speculate about everything else but that what announced and how they intend to staff the aircraft going forward in the near-term.

Reading between the lines you see they said next two years which would take it up to the point the seat AD needs to be addressed.
Will DL keep 50% of the fleet permanently parked in storage or will they reactive as demand warrants?
Will DL be negotiating an early return / lease termination of the parked portion of the fleet with Boeing?

The requirement for seat replacement puts a clock on the 717. Something will be resolved in the next two years. Also, most of us will have Covid-19 by then, unless a vaccine is tested and mass produced in time. So the proposals of 2 seats across is a non-starter.

So either DL decides in about a year to start replacing seats, or the type is doomed. I predict the most likely outcome is new seats.

Why?
DL was utilizing the 717s in low utilization service.

https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Put in a registration number (without N, say 949AT) and a time frame (I like 01/01/2018 to current date).
That plane from 1/22/2019 to 8/5/2019 only flew 869 cycles. Let us call it 1300 per year and a similar number of hours. Looking at all the 717s, DL has not been flying them high utilization. They fly them on peak demand days only at peak times.

Airline cannot afford to buy new aircraft, even heavily discounted new aircraft, for that low of utilization. All of the US3 fly what I think of as the Allegiant model with a subfleet of their aircraft. Always older aircraft, that only fly a little (excluding say around Thanksgiving where it becomes pilot duty hours limited). The high utilization flying is by the A220 fleet.

Put in an A220 (103DU,for some reason 101DU doesn't show up). It is flying about 2800 hours/year, but similar cycles (1300). Looking at 107DU, very similar utilization (when put on an annual basis I calculate about 1300 cycles and 2800 hours, which is low utilization for a new plane at under 4 cycles a day and under 8 hours a day).

So unless DL plans to fly A220s a lot less, I expect new seats for the 717s. In particular as the 717s are just past a third of the Limit of Validity (certified allowed usable life of 110,000 cycles and 150,000 hours). DC-9s were flown (going from memory here...) up to just over 98,000 cycles, so the basic structure can take much more. (This was HA, I don't remember the hours, but it was much less than the cycles due to island hoping.)

When I joined a.net 15 years ago (yes 2005), there were a huge number of NW DC-9 threads as those ancient birds had to go... They flew on until early January 2014.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/06/travel/d ... index.html

The 717s were acquired cheap for low utilization duty. Because of that, I see 104DU 36780 cycles plus another 7 months of use (say 37,600 cycles now, estimated) and 51,880 hours plus estimated usage (let us call is 53,000 hours). I spot checked a few registrations, and I simply cannot find any Delta 717 at even 40% of the limit of validity. I've never been one to say one flies up every scrap of utilization. But for the low utilization duty the 717s have been used for, the most important aspect is low fixed costs.

Honestly, why would DL replace the fleet as long as the BR710/BR725 is in high enough utilization to ensure the BR715 has easy spare parts? They won't fly these forever, but the aircraft to replace them with are used aircraft, not MAXs.

This isn't to say DL won't trade them in for MAXs. But the real replacement might be say used 73G, A319, A320, or 738s. The A220 will need to age a lot more and have 50+ available used to be considered which is at least 8 years away. It won't be shiny aircraft syndrome that replaces the 717s.

It is my opinion DL operates the 717s, A319s, and A320s in a fashion analogous to how Allegiant operates. So I suggest reading the Allegiant thread for insight into the 717 fate: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438059

Or Better, listen to the Allegiant conference call as so many aspects weren't put in writing:
http://ir.allegiantair.com/events-and-p ... ast-events

I suspect DL is pursuing the same strategy:
1. Park aircraft to use them as parts donors, in particular for engine green time (why half the DL 717 fleet is parked, IMHO.)
2. Wait for used aircraft prices to drop. Allegiant goes as far to allude (but not outright state) that they believe it will be cheaper to buy used A319s/A320s for their "motors" (I prefer to call them engines) and short term and flyable A320s to replace parked aircraft rather than reactivate them.

While DL maintains aircraft and engines well, some are old. I looked up 309US. On 10/22/2019 it had 39,876 cycles and 87,382 hours. If that airframe is coming up on a heavy maintenance check, scrap it as by now it should be at about 75% of the LOV hours (For A320-200 60,000 cycles and 120,000 hours). It is a 1990 delivery and since it was stored a bunch, there are probably corrosion issues to be found. (Recall, airbus dramatically improved coatings by MSN 1000, this is MSN 118.)

So I can see 20 to 30 of the 717 fleet bought from Boeing as cheap engine/parts donor frames and scrapped. The rest, I expect to fly. I expect DL to go on a used A320 buying binge when they see the market improving, but not buying anything below say MSN 2000. I base this off what I think costs will be in 3 months. For it will be the rare MSN 2000+ that has over 25,000 cycles or over 50,000 FH. In other words, at worst at 40% of LOV. I just think used aircraft pricing will be so low, why bother buying anything used up more than 40% of LOV? At least until 2023.

DL's A320 fleet.
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Del ... e-a320.htm


Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10718
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 7:47 pm

c933103 wrote:
Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe Delta will reconfigure all 717 and A220 in a new 2-2. Easy cleanable, distance from aisle, between passengers, no table just a bottle holder fllled before flight..

That would remove ~20 seats from the planes and likely make them completely unprofitable. Acceptable to cut seats for sale (by blocking middle seats or whatever) in the short term, but if we get to a point where long term the seats need to be cut (as reconfiguring to 2-2 would mean) then DL would just probably cut the A221 and 717 fleets for larger narrow bodies.

If 2-3 have to become 2-2 then 3-3 will also have to become 2-2

Let’s not overestimate the separation 2-2 in a 717 fuselage would give you. It’s not like it is 3-3 with the middle seats blocked. To match that the 717/A220 has to go to 1-2.

A A320 with 19” aisle at 5 abreast would only have slightly less than an inch of less space per passenger than a 717 at 4 abreast (with 19” aisle). A 737 at 2-3 would have a little more than 2” less with 19” aisle, a little more than an inch at the standard 737 18” aisle.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4500
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 10:11 pm

Polot wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Polot wrote:
That would remove ~20 seats from the planes and likely make them completely unprofitable. Acceptable to cut seats for sale (by blocking middle seats or whatever) in the short term, but if we get to a point where long term the seats need to be cut (as reconfiguring to 2-2 would mean) then DL would just probably cut the A221 and 717 fleets for larger narrow bodies.

If 2-3 have to become 2-2 then 3-3 will also have to become 2-2

Let’s not overestimate the separation 2-2 in a 717 fuselage would give you. It’s not like it is 3-3 with the middle seats blocked. To match that the 717/A220 has to go to 1-2.

A A320 with 19” aisle at 5 abreast would only have slightly less than an inch of less space per passenger than a 717 at 4 abreast (with 19” aisle). A 737 at 2-3 would have a little more than 2” less with 19” aisle, a little more than an inch at the standard 737 18” aisle.

I don't think the key with spacing out passengers is to put them as faraway as to make them impossible to transmit each other. Instead I believe it's to reduce the amount of passenger within one's reach so that even if someone is infected on the plane and might transmit it to others, the number of passengers the virus might spread to would be reduced.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
Babyshark
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sat May 16, 2020 10:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
A closed air system not designed to remove virus is also inadequate.

One is really taking risks by choosing air travel, IMO.


I'm sorry, I may have missed it. Whose air system is closed? And also not designed to remove viruses?

I have a service bulletin from Airbus discussing Covid, they're not a closed system and they're designed to remove viruses.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 11

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos