Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
VictorKilo
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:20 pm

We’ve been focused on the swap for Max white tails, but does either Boeing or Delta have a large number of 738/9 or A320Ceo frames coming off of lease or retuned directly to them from other airlines? There’s been discussion of the large number of off lease frames in the Production Cuts thread, although it’s unclear to me how many were leased directly from Boeing or Airbus rather than from third parties. Delta may find that a swap of off lease 738 or 320 for 717 or neo deferments May make more sense than a swap for the Max.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:48 am

VictorKilo wrote:
We’ve been focused on the swap for Max white tails, but does either Boeing or Delta have a large number of 738/9 or A320Ceo frames coming off of lease or retuned directly to them from other airlines? There’s been discussion of the large number of off lease frames in the Production Cuts thread, although it’s unclear to me how many were leased directly from Boeing or Airbus rather than from third parties. Delta may find that a swap of off lease 738 or 320 for 717 or neo deferments May make more sense than a swap for the Max.


There are a lot of planes of all stripes looking for new homes. For DL's 717's some are owned but like 3/4 are on lease from Boeing for a number of more years. Boeing could forgive some or all of these lease payments as a trade in on the new planes. What makes this attractive to DL is better cash flow for now and new planes to offset the retired 717's out a few years.

But we are not privy to any dealing so it is unknown if this will come to pass.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19279
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:16 am

1337Delta764 wrote:
DL_Mech wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I don't think running an advertising campaign insinuating AA, AS, UA, and WN are unsafe for flying the Max would be a good idea at all. It would be quite unprecedented in the US as well. I can't see it getting a favorable opinion among the public.


TWA ran a thinly veiled advertising campaign while the DC-10 was grounded in 1979.


Such a campaign would generate a lot of negative press and could further harm DL's relationship with Boeing. Boeing would not take such a campaign lightly, and such statements might be borderline defamatory. Defamation wasn't taken as seriously back then as it is now.


There’s nothing defamatory in the TWA adverts and DL could simply say “Fly Delta, the only US major that doesn’t use MAX”. Nothing defamatory, just a simple statement of fact.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 5912
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
DL_Mech wrote:

There’s nothing defamatory in the TWA adverts and DL could simply say “Fly Delta, the only US major that doesn’t use MAX”. Nothing defamatory, just a simple statement of fact.


But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19279
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:40 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:


But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.


No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:41 pm

Good article here regarding the Max advertising safety discussion:
https://slate.com/technology/2020/05/av ... afety.html
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 5912
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:45 pm

scbriml wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
scbriml wrote:


But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.


No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.


Yes they would; they would be implying that the 737 MAX is unsafe after being cleared, which is is a perfectly valid grounds for a defamation suit.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:53 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
We’ve been focused on the swap for Max white tails, but does either Boeing or Delta have a large number of 738/9 or A320Ceo frames coming off of lease or retuned directly to them from other airlines? There’s been discussion of the large number of off lease frames in the Production Cuts thread, although it’s unclear to me how many were leased directly from Boeing or Airbus rather than from third parties. Delta may find that a swap of off lease 738 or 320 for 717 or neo deferments May make more sense than a swap for the Max.


There are a lot of planes of all stripes looking for new homes. For DL's 717's some are owned but like 3/4 are on lease from Boeing for a number of more years. Boeing could forgive some or all of these lease payments as a trade in on the new planes. What makes this attractive to DL is better cash flow for now and new planes to offset the retired 717's out a few years.

But we are not privy to any dealing so it is unknown if this will come to pass.

We've been discussing how about 2,000 aircraft will be looking for a new home in 2021 in the production chicken thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1451221&p=22454405

These are aircraft owned by a bunch of entities: ALC, AerCap, Norwegian capital, AirCastle, airlines, Boeing (MAX) and Airbus. This is the most extreame buyers market of my lifetime and that includes the two oil crisis, the 1990s downturn, 9/11, and GFC.

Think of this like buying a used home. You might care a little on who you buy it from, but more you care about the maintenance history (how old the furnace/AC) and having an inspection done (roof, termites, water damage foundation). For aircraft, since any aircraft worth buying now is going to cost over $10 million, you have a team go over the paper and another team the aircraft to value it, not one handyman doing a $400 inspection but rather about $25k of labor to determine if an aircraft is worth buying and how much might be needed.

Often a purchase is conditional on the cost of a C or D check.

DL is one of the most sophisticated buyers of used aircraft (and new). The could buy new MAX (e.g., say the -9 with -10 gear), NEO, A220, or used 738, A320/321.

Delta has 15+ months to decide what to buy.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:47 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
There are a lot of planes of all stripes looking for new homes. For DL's 717's some are owned but like 3/4 are on lease from Boeing for a number of more years. Boeing could forgive some or all of these lease payments as a trade in on the new planes. What makes this attractive to DL is better cash flow for now and new planes to offset the retired 717's out a few years.


This! Still think that DL getting some MAXes could be a win-win for both DL and Boeing. If Boeing does make an attractive offer regarding DL 717 (early lease termination, lease rate reduction) in return for DL taking some MAX planes later on I could see that end up happing. DL AFAIK has no planes on order that fall in the size of the 738 and therefore at one point or another will have a need for a plane of that size. DL will buy whatever makes financial sense for them new or used, as that is the only way of running a airline successfully. If the MAX makes sense they go for it, but as other members have pointed out with so many used aircraft on the market IMO DL will go for them as planes of desperate lessors or birds of airlines eventually ending up in bankruptcy will be even cheaper.

I don't think customer preference would be an issue as the MAX sage has been replaced with the C19 sage. More customers currently care about catching C19 on a plane or that some of the restrictions are making traveling unpleasant (like no food) than on what plane they end up flying. This showcases the short attention span that general customers have and I don't think that the MAX will become a major news story again. Even the eventual MAY RTS news story might be buried by C19 or something related to the election or DJT.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10392
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:57 pm

If they continue to fly with open seats due to Covid, an a/c larger than the 717 operating the 717 route would be able to maintain or increase capacity while still leaving the middle seat open.
I think how they replace the 717 is the key, one for one or capacity upgrade.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3156
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
WN732 wrote:
MetsNomad wrote:
According to Reuters, Boeing has had discussions with Delta Air Lines to take up to 40 Boeing already-built 737 MAX aircraft, no doubt at a HUGE discount.

Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SKBN26M5JK

As a frequent Delta flier, I was actually relieved that Delta was the only major U.S. airline that did not order the 737 MAX, but this offer (even though actual price never tends to get disclosed) sounds mighty tempting.

Anybody think Delta will bite?


With the 737 still being an important player in their fleet, it is logical that eventually, they will order the MAX. The airline industry needs to vastly recover before we will see any major orders though. At least that's my opinion. They are still taking Airbus deliveries but again those were placed quite a while back.

For the right price, DL should order. The large 738 and 739ER fleets make this an easy addition. The tough negotiation will be the engine overhauls. Currently DL has rights for the BR700 (717 engine, to my knowledge never rally used, the CFM-56 (-5 and -7 for the A320 and 737NG), CF6, Trent 1000/7000/Xwb (as part of the A330NEO/A350 widebody order), Pratt GTFs (PW1100G, PW1500G, and I believe rights to the PW1200G/1700G/1900G, but the last bit I haven't seen convincing evidence either way).

It is up to CFM/GE to convince DL for the MAX. It is an easy addition, but DL will hold their ground.

Lightsaber

We also still work on the PW4000( Delta and Contract), PW2000 ( Delta and Contract), and CF34( technically all contract)

For the LEAP I heard CFM was willing to give us the overhaul rights, but not the repair capability. The overhaul rights just allow a shop to disassemble and reassemble the engine. The repair rights allow a shop to rework the parts. This is where the real money is made. CFM wanted Delta to send all the worn parts to them to be reworked and they get the profit of the repair. Another drawback is it makes the turn time of the whole engine more dependent on an outside vendor. Delta has been working very hard on bringing more parts in house to gain that cost advantage and control the flow better.
 
ehaase
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:02 pm

Capricorn wrote:
DL AFAIK has no planes on order that fall in the size of the 738 and therefore at one point or another will have a need for a plane of that size.


Why is it so important for Delta to have an aircraft with 160 seats? Delta basically replaced 150 seat MD88 and MD90's with 180 seat 739's and 190 seat 321's.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:10 pm

ehaase wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
DL AFAIK has no planes on order that fall in the size of the 738 and therefore at one point or another will have a need for a plane of that size.


Why is it so important for Delta to have an aircraft with 160 seats? Delta basically replaced 150 seat MD88 and MD90's with 180 seat 739's and 190 seat 321's.

Delta eventually need something new around that size. They are not going to operate with a 50 seat gap between 130 seat A223/A319s and 180 seat 739s.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:50 pm

If Airbus are willing to launch the A220-500, I could see Delta with a very respectable order. There’s 60 A320s all getting up there in age, and the nearly 80 738s are mostly 1998-2002 builds. There are 2 from 2010 and 4 ex-GOL built in 2012-14. I’d expect 738M over any other Max family member.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Could Delta Order 737 MAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:01 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
WN732 wrote:

With the 737 still being an important player in their fleet, it is logical that eventually, they will order the MAX. The airline industry needs to vastly recover before we will see any major orders though. At least that's my opinion. They are still taking Airbus deliveries but again those were placed quite a while back.

For the right price, DL should order. The large 738 and 739ER fleets make this an easy addition. The tough negotiation will be the engine overhauls. Currently DL has rights for the BR700 (717 engine, to my knowledge never rally used, the CFM-56 (-5 and -7 for the A320 and 737NG), CF6, Trent 1000/7000/Xwb (as part of the A330NEO/A350 widebody order), Pratt GTFs (PW1100G, PW1500G, and I believe rights to the PW1200G/1700G/1900G, but the last bit I haven't seen convincing evidence either way).

It is up to CFM/GE to convince DL for the MAX. It is an easy addition, but DL will hold their ground.

Lightsaber

We also still work on the PW4000( Delta and Contract), PW2000 ( Delta and Contract), and CF34( technically all contract)

For the LEAP I heard CFM was willing to give us the overhaul rights, but not the repair capability. The overhaul rights just allow a shop to disassemble and reassemble the engine. The repair rights allow a shop to rework the parts. This is where the real money is made. CFM wanted Delta to send all the worn parts to them to be reworked and they get the profit of the repair. Another drawback is it makes the turn time of the whole engine more dependent on an outside vendor. Delta has been working very hard on bringing more parts in house to gain that cost advantage and control the flow better.

The repair capability takes money from CFM, so I'm not surprised. I would be surprised if DL accepted that offer. IMHO, there is no way negotiations are final.

That process that CFM requested also requires more spare parts as the time lag is too long. Aaaagh.... There is just too much profit in DL repairing parts. I believe that is a make or break condition for DL.

As to the other engines, neat, but not effecting DL's purchase decisions near term.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
NameOmitted
Posts: 913
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:59 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:42 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:

But DL would be implying something that might be false, and therefore could such statements could be implicitly defamatory even if the statement isn't defamatory itself. Go research defamation by implication.


No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.


Yes they would; they would be implying that the 737 MAX is unsafe after being cleared, which is is a perfectly valid grounds for a defamation suit.


More importantly, it would be self-destructive of and airline to sell the idea that any air travel is unsafe to an unsettled consumer base.

Regardless of their actual record of safety, airplanes freak people out. No sane airline will go around telling people that any modem airliner is unsafe.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:27 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

No, DL would not be implying anything that is false. They do not operate MAX while their main competitors do. It’s a true statement of fact with no attached implication.


Yes they would; they would be implying that the 737 MAX is unsafe after being cleared, which is is a perfectly valid grounds for a defamation suit.


More importantly, it would be self-destructive of and airline to sell the idea that any air travel is unsafe to an unsettled consumer base.

Regardless of their actual record of safety, airplanes freak people out. No sane airline will go around telling people that any modem airliner is unsafe.

Airlines also don’t do it because there are no such thing as a crash proof aircraft. You don’t want to be the one touting how you have no MAXes then suddenly you unfortunately lose a A32X or A220 with no survivors...


The industry as a whole sees insinuation about the safety of aircraft as a no go area. That’s why Airbus’s “4 engines 4 long haul” was dropped like a hot potato when it faced near universal negative reaction in the industry, including internally at Airbus (then picked up by VS, although never really used in print or media).
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:49 pm

DL was probably trying to get out of B717 leases today for Maxes tomorrow to replace B737NG's. Boeing probably wasn't cutting their B717 leases.
I think that they would be better off running the smaller leased B717's hard and saving the owned fleet and the fleet that they could get lessors to make concessions on.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:02 am

IIRC, it’s been shared in these forums that the Delta 717 leases run through 2031. How many of the aircraft expirations last to that point, I’m not sure, but this would be a lot for Boeing to eat. Which begs the question, does Boeing really want to terminate this revenue stream (one likely unable to be replicated) if the commitment in return is only 40ish heavily discounted 737-8 MAX’s? Talk about holding the bag.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
smartplane
Posts: 1555
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:41 am

sxf24 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
In the current COVID World, only the OEM's and their strategic partners are offering finance on new aircraft deals. Add the word MAX to the equation, and 100% certainty Boeing Capital will be financing, lease or purchase.

For DL, a low cost MAX deal, that provides a plane which can be used and abused with no financial penalty on shorter routes, has multiple exit points, and removes 717 commitments at the same time would be attractive, if they see the need, and can handle the internal PR.

An Airbus deferral deal on existing orders may specifically preclude other purchases without penalty, which DL would likely want Boeing to absorb.


There is plenty of new airplane financing available and none of it is coming from the OEMs. Both Airbus and Boeing have substantial cash flow problems and will not be financing a big order for Delta.

Agree, no problem for blue chip DL to source competitive new aircraft funding. But they would be among the elite of the elite.

For others, while funding may be available, is it on terms acceptable to customers? The creative funding that brought us to over production has gone, like 90-110% of value, tax effective loans and leases under-pinned by growth, and lending against conditional future retrospective credits.

Now we have financiers requiring assignment of customer credits, to make bulk principal reductions (which OEM's discount substantially when not used to fund further orders), whereas previously a proportion of customer credits could potentially be used to acquire a share in another aircraft.

If you exclude enforced rollovers, locked in pre and post-shipment finance, and finance linked with cancelled orders / defaults, it's a struggle to find finance on sensible commercial terms, without the air frame and engine OEM's (or their strategic partners) having a hand in the background providing lender comfort in the form of a buyback, guarantee or both.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:12 pm

[quote="DeltaMD95"]
IIRC, it’s been shared in these forums that the Delta 717 leases run through 2031. How many of the aircraft expirations last to that point, I’m not sure, but this would be a lot for Boeing to eat. Which begs the question, does Boeing really want to terminate this revenue stream (one likely unable to be replicated) if the commitment in return is only 40ish heavily discounted 737-8 MAX’s? Talk about holding the bag.[/quote]

Good point.
I assume it also depends how high lease rates are.
That apart I don't see how retiring B717s help the sale of Maxs. Different seat capacity.
It may however help Airbus selling more A220s.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:57 pm

Do not discuss other users discuss the topic. This is your warning.

Also, moderators do not moderate facts. Start posting links or make it clear this is your opinion.
Winter is coming.
 
chiad
Posts: 1332
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:27 pm

Delta is delaying $5 billion in aircraft deliveries until after 2022, including about $2 billion in planes that were scheduled to be handed over this year.
Delta is also planning to retire 400 aircraft by 2025, including 200 this year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -to-airbus

Opting for 40 whitetail MAX planes for "immediate" delivery (as this topic sugges) is, IMHO, just ridiculous and not happening.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:37 am

This thread was started nearly 6 months ago, during the early fallout from COVID, when most "experts" predicted traffic levels would return to 2019 levels by late summer.

Let's look at the facts rationally: Last year, DL had planned on operating the 717 fleet another 10 years, and intended on upgrading both the cockpit and cabin (allegedly with the same PTV system as the A220). By the beginning of the year, there were credible rumors that DL was concerned about the ROI of such project, especially given swelling labor rates. Problem was, the leases on the lion's share of the 717 matured (expired) rapidly over the next 2.5 years. It made plenty of sense to think that DL would try to work out a deal with Boeing, where it returned the 717 at a much slower pace so that it could maintain its "small narrowbody" numbers with the ALPA and have amble capacity to serve a red hot economy.

Today, DL doesn't need to strike a deal with Boeing -- it can simply return the aircraft. Since Boeing isn't going to be able to rehome those 717 anytime soon (and probably never for most all of them), they would undoubtedly be open to a deal with DL, where DL gets to extend the leases at favorable rates on its terms (then Boeing isn't stuck with the large cost of storing the aircraft). This is most likely what happened... we will find out more in the future.

If given a deal it couldn't refuse, DL may opt to acquire some MAX. But it will have nothing to do with the 717. Pretty good article in the Journal about how airline execs are privately admitting it'll take 5+ years for traffic to recover... I'm baffled at how many users can't accept that, instead thinking that for every plane DL retires, they must have a replacement in the pipeline...
 
Sokes
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:27 am

chiad wrote:
Delta is also planning to retire 400 aircraft by 2025, including 200 this year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -to-airbus

Opting for 40 whitetail MAX planes for "immediate" delivery (as this topic sugges) is, IMHO, just ridiculous and not happening.

That makes sense.
Airlines don't have the cash to accept deliveries.
Airbus and Boeing accept later deliveries in exchange for early retirement of old planes.

What will really count when people start flying again is how many aircraft got retired.
If airlines accept new planes now or in one year is rather not so important for the value chain.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Jomar777
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:58 am

RalXWB wrote:
They already have a replacement for the 717....the A220. Looking Forward to Dozens of pages of speculations.


That would me my point too.

To propose to exchange B717s to the MAX for whatever rate/price is easy to accept as a starting point on negotiations between any airline and Boeing. Need to renew fleet versus Boeing's need to shift the MAX would cater for the negotiations and for a deal to be had in some shape or form

However, it is Delta we are speaking about - the airline which is moving to an all Airbus Fleet and that has introduced the A220-300 on this segment. It is more easy to expect DL to shift these B717s and gradually their B737s to more A220/320/321s then go to the MAX.

Do not say it is not going to happen but it looks a bit of a surprise or unlikely rumor.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:11 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
This thread was started nearly 6 months ago, during the early fallout from COVID, when most "experts" predicted traffic levels would return to 2019 levels by late summer.

Let's look at the facts rationally: Last year, DL had planned on operating the 717 fleet another 10 years, and intended on upgrading both the cockpit and cabin (allegedly with the same PTV system as the A220). By the beginning of the year, there were credible rumors that DL was concerned about the ROI of such project, especially given swelling labor rates. Problem was, the leases on the lion's share of the 717 matured (expired) rapidly over the next 2.5 years. It made plenty of sense to think that DL would try to work out a deal with Boeing, where it returned the 717 at a much slower pace so that it could maintain its "small narrowbody" numbers with the ALPA and have amble capacity to serve a red hot economy.

Today, DL doesn't need to strike a deal with Boeing -- it can simply return the aircraft. Since Boeing isn't going to be able to rehome those 717 anytime soon (and probably never for most all of them), they would undoubtedly be open to a deal with DL, where DL gets to extend the leases at favorable rates on its terms (then Boeing isn't stuck with the large cost of storing the aircraft). This is most likely what happened... we will find out more in the future.

If given a deal it couldn't refuse, DL may opt to acquire some MAX. But it will have nothing to do with the 717. Pretty good article in the Journal about how airline execs are privately admitting it'll take 5+ years for traffic to recover... I'm baffled at how many users can't accept that, instead thinking that for every plane DL retires, they must have a replacement in the pipeline...



This part is key:
Problem was, the leases on the lion's share of the 717 matured (expired) rapidly over the next 2.5 years.

Delta has already announced retirement of 717 before 2025.
Delta is a solvent buyer, and has all the leverage they might need over airplanes' OEMs, as far as any potential order for new planes is concerned, in the current environment. A would be happy to (re-)speed-up deliveries, B would be VERY happy to sell anything.
If lease expiration does happen within next two-three years, Delta can simply wash its hands off 717 and concentrate on more essential issues.
Now, where does all of this leave Southwest, is a better question. Because original leases (before sub-leases to Delta) were from Boeing to Southwest. Do those expire within next couple of years, as well?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:18 pm

https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
FlyingViking
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:16 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:35 pm

If I was a betting man.........The Max would look great in Delta colors.
 
kiowa
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:37 pm

Don't like the 737 and do not trust the 737 MAX. Boeing has tried to run that aircraft well beyond its 50 year old design. Start fresh Boeing, dump the 737 MAX on a low budget airline that does not care.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:38 pm

I seem to recall some discussion about DL looking into the MAX a few months ago. I know they seem to lean towards the A320 family, they do have a significant number of 737 NGs, so I wouldn't be shocked if DL at least considers snagging some of the 3M8 white tails as a start and see where it goes from there.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
B787oftheworld
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:17 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:38 pm

I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:40 pm

B787oftheworld wrote:
I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?


I'd suspect they'd improve an existing order slot, but at the same time, I'd be shocked if Boeing doesn't at least make an effort to get DL on the MAX bandwagon.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
FlyingViking
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:16 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:48 pm

fpetrutiu wrote:
https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?



I thought Boeing quietly dropped the Max name with the recertification. Isn't it just 737-7/8/9/10 now?
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2999
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:51 pm

There is a place for the aircraft at DL, I have always stuck with this. Should an order happen I would not be surprised.
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:53 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
fpetrutiu wrote:
https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?



I thought Boeing quietly dropped the Max name with the recertification. Isn't it just 737-7/8/9/10 now?


I don't believe Max was on the type rating ever. It is more of a marketing name, like the Dreamliner. They are still using Max for marketing of you look at their website.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
PlaneAdmirer
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:54 pm

kiowa wrote:
Don't like the 737 and do not trust the 737 MAX. Boeing has tried to run that aircraft well beyond its 50 year old design. Start fresh Boeing, dump the 737 MAX on a low budget airline that does not care.


I don't agree with your premise at all - I am happy to get on MAX, both alone and with my family. I have faith in the process and the reviews by the FAA and certifications of other countries that the 737 MAX will be fine. As we often fly Southwest and United, I expect we will be on various MAX aircraft for the next 15 to 20 years.

But taking your statement at face value, would you share what "budget airline" and their passengers deserve to fly on an aircraft that you believe to be unsafe for you? Shouldn't your argument be for a complete grounding and non-return to service (and the demise of Boeing due to liability issues)?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14622
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:58 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
B787oftheworld wrote:
I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?


I'd suspect they'd improve an existing order slot, but at the same time, I'd be shocked if Boeing doesn't at least make an effort to get DL on the MAX bandwagon.


I think you’re exactly right, which is why this is pretty much a non-story. DL is doubtless in touch with Boeing and Airbus continually. It’s corporate malpractice not to talk. And it would be equally silly for those conversations not to include all of the aircraft currently on offer. Doubtless DL and Airbus discussed the 380 at some point. That doesn’t mean there was ever serious interest.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3792
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:58 pm

B787oftheworld wrote:
I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

Boeing built more than 800 737 MAX so far. I can see many of them not going (back) to their original airline. Jet Airways ceased operations, Norwegian is on the brink. Lion Air and the Chinese airlines said before they might not want to fly with them again. Other airlines like VietJet might have over ordered them. American and Air Canada want to delay or cancel some.I am sure if Delta wants say 50 by 31 december 2021 they can easily get them.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:02 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
B787oftheworld wrote:
I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?

Boeing built more than 800 737 MAX so far. I can see many of them not going (back) to their original airline. Jet Airways ceased operations, Norwegian is on the brink. Lion Air and the Chinese airlines said before they might not want to fly with them again. Other airlines like VietJet might have over ordered them. American and Air Canada want to delay or cancel some.I am sure if Delta wants say 50 by 31 december 2021 they can easily get them.

None of AC’s canceled 737s have been built. AA recently stated that they do not want to defer any Max deliveries because due to the compensation they receive at delivery getting the planes are net cash positive for them. Evidently AA has resolved the financing issues with the MAX they ran into earlier this year.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:03 pm

737-8 to replace the oldest 320 and 737-800 members (20-30 years old for both fleets) isn’t a bad move, and helps clean up the fleet while they and on the simplicity kick.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 947
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:07 pm

Haven’t we been through this before? I wish we’d stop doing these DL MAX threads until something is officially announced.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8483
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:11 pm

fpetrutiu wrote:
https://www.metro.us/delta-hints-at-the/

Ed Bastian: “We’re talking to Boeing about lots of different things, the Max included,” ... “If there is an opportunity where we would feel comfortable acquiring the MAX we’d have no hesitation doing that,”

This is interesting, however I highly doubt it. I think it would make more sense for DL to stick to Airbus right now, they are not pressed for having these planes immediately. I am sure they would get a kick ass deal from Boeing, but I just don't really see this making a lot of sense (an I am a Boeing fan)...

Thoughts?


Bastian has been saying nice things about MAX from the time immediately following grounding. I don't think that is sloppiness on his part, or just remarks to fill interviewer pauses. Example from April 2019:

Delta CEO Ed Bastian has expressed multiple times over the last week how confident he is in Boeing in the aftermath of the two 737 Max crashes.

"I’m confident that Boeing will solve this issue,” Bastian said during a talk at Aviation Week Network’s MRO Americas conference in the Georgia World Congress Center this week. “While we're all troubled by what's happened with the Max, we'll learn from it."


https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... ce-in.html

It's just going to come down to price, and how long DL can string out deliveries so cash flow isn't too challenged. Thirty MAX 8 whitetails, and then 70 MAX 10s (with conversion rights) to follow within five years. Perfect.
 
777luver
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:14 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Haven’t we been through this before? I wish we’d stop doing these DL MAX threads until something is officially announced.


Multiple threads
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 633
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:15 pm

Probably best for other airlines to "prove" the plane first IMO, but depends on aircraft availability if demand sky-rockets amid the recent retirements. Maybe this is a soliciting hint for re-negotiated prices on the A321NEO or new consideration for the XLR.
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:18 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
Other airlines like VietJet might have over-ordered them.

Not really, VJ still has its Thai subsidiary which it eyes a fleet of 50 aircraft in the next few years (currently 15), and it also eyes more subsidiaries over Southeast Asia.
If it actually over-ordered, I guess it would cancel some MAX 10 (because VJ already has more than 120 A321neo on order anyway), and in any circumstances, there would be no whitetails from VJ (its order is MAX 200 which DL doesn't really need, and none of the VJ MAX 10 was built)
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
oldJoe
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Delta hints at the possibility of purchasing Boeing’s 737 MAX: FT

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:24 pm

B787oftheworld wrote:
I see quiet often Delta is likely to take sum white tails but is there really white tails around ? I mean Boeing has still more then 3.000 backlog. If a customer cancels an order , does Boeing try to market that aircraft to a new customer or improve the slot of an already existing order ?


According to the following source Boeing has about 100 white tails at mid November 2020

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/11/15/boeings-737-max-white-tail-problem-will-any-us-air/
 
bennett123
Posts: 10028
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:38 pm

Assuming that Boeing take them, what next.

AFAIK, there is no cargo conversion available. Not if this would viable less than 100 available.

If not, would DL do major o/h for 3rd parties or would Boeing.

I understand that Volotea are phasing theirs out, and QF probably would not have the capacity. Quite apart from being located so far away from most likely operators.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:54 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Assuming that Boeing take them, what next.

AFAIK, there is no cargo conversion available. Not if this would viable less than 100 available.

If not, would DL do major o/h for 3rd parties or would Boeing.

I understand that Volotea are phasing theirs out, and QF probably would not have the capacity. Quite apart from being located so far away from most likely operators.

While a few might find other homes (especially the newer ones that are among the last built) at HA or QF most will probably be scrapped. We are talking about planes that are around 20 years old, so Boeing Capital got an acceptable life out of them.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10028
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Which raises the question will there be enough flying to make it viable for someone to do major o/h.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos