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TC957
Topic Author
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MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:52 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52394433
He says he won't fly if the Irish Govt insist on this measure.
 
enplaned
Posts: 112
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:09 pm

He's not wrong.

It may be better than nothing, but it really doesn't accomplish much meaningful in the way of separation.
 
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Polot
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:15 pm

When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GDB
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:17 pm

What's the betting that if the Irish government, or more likely via EASA, do insist on this, he'll fly?
If it comes it could be temporary, albeit for a somewhat extended period.
What he is really saying is 'my business model won't survive', yet Easy Jet are considering it.

Could it be that the 25 year era of LCC's at least in Europe, or at least their rapid expansion over this time, might not survive the after effects of the pandemic.
He can insult governments all he likes, has he not considered that the market will decide, the economic fallout, the fear of close proximity, people not just jetting off to anything like the extent they have done these past two decades.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:32 pm

One can CHOOSE to take the added risk of skydiving, or one can stay grounded.

No one forces anyone else to fly.

If you feel unsafe to fly publicly, just stay home or charter your own personal aircraft.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:43 pm

Polot wrote:
When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.

Airplanes are NOT like cruise ships. The air is better quality than most of the places you visit in your life. It's on par with the air quality in a hospital ICU.

Airflow comes out of the ceiling and exits at your feet at the cabin sidewall. Nearly all airflow is in that direction with very little movement between rows. The exchange rate is one of the highest in any public place. Yes, some is recirculated, I think most are about a 40% reuse per cycle. That reused air is fed through a HEPA filter before being introduced into the supply duct. The rest comes from the engine bleed system. That system takes very hot air off the compressor section of the engine and cools it to a usable temp to be fed into the cabin.
 
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Aquila3
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:45 pm

Polot wrote:
When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.

I think MOL got it right.
The reality is that we do not know which measures help and which do not, included the "experts". I have heard so many versions that I do not know who to believe. From my humble standpoint I can guess that the 1 meter or 2 meter or 6 feet social distancing is BS. Here in Austria, where I work, it is very weakly enforced but the epidemic has already peaked from a while. Compare to Italy where much stricter measures are in place and still we are struggling. The only thing that counts seems to be early closing the schools and avoid to concentrate sick people in confined spaces, being them nursing homes , airplanes or ships. Availability of good masks may make a difference, too. Maybe the COVID thing is much more infecting that what they can tell us.
Then, if we have to make another security theater like other we do with terrorism, letting a seat empty, so people feels safe, so be it.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
kalvado
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:46 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Polot wrote:
When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.

Airplanes are NOT like cruise ships. The air is better quality than most of the places you visit in your life. It's on par with the air quality in a hospital ICU.

Airflow comes out of the ceiling and exits at your feet at the cabin sidewall. Nearly all airflow is in that direction with very little movement between rows. The exchange rate is one of the highest in any public place. Yes, some is recirculated, I think most are about a 40% reuse per cycle. That reused air is fed through a HEPA filter before being introduced into the supply duct. The rest comes from the engine bleed system. That system takes very hot air off the compressor section of the engine and cools it to a usable temp to be fed into the cabin.

If anything, mandating fully opened personal vents may also help.
Now some 777s (I know, FR doesn't have any, heh) have no personal vents. I was on one of those around xmas time, and it felt like there was no airflow at all in the cabin. That may be an issue..
 
VSMUT
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:10 pm

kalvado wrote:
Now some 777s (I know, FR doesn't have any, heh) have no personal vents. I was on one of those around xmas time, and it felt like there was no airflow at all in the cabin. That may be an issue..


Many new widebodies don't come with personal vents. It's an optional extra so you may find them on some, but I've been on vent-less A330s, A350s, A380s, 777s and 787s.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:14 pm

If every airline is following the same rules why can't Ryan continue to compete, obviously prices need to go up a certain percent.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Noshow
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:21 pm

There is no point in commercial aviation if seats deliberately are left empty. People should better wear masks or get tested before a flight and such but this can't generate any profits. And Ryanair will be far better off than most other airlines as they have some low cost structure. Not jut low prices. So I have to agree to his statement.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:25 pm

GDB wrote:
What's the betting that if the Irish government, or more likely via EASA, do insist on this, he'll fly?
If it comes it could be temporary, albeit for a somewhat extended period.
What he is really saying is 'my business model won't survive', yet Easy Jet are considering it.


frmrCapCadet wrote:
If every airline is following the same rules why can't Ryan continue to compete, obviously prices need to go up a certain percent.



That's a good way of thinking about it but it may not impact all carriers equally due to variances in price elasticity of demand.

BA may have a higher fraction of business customers willing to pay GPB xx more (or xx% more) while Ryanair is leisure-focused and people will just stay home when faced with higher prices. (hypothetically)

Flying with a bunch of empty seats hasn't been how LCCs have grown in the last five years but it may be time for him to rethink the business model.
 
anrec80
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:44 pm

TC957 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52394433
He says he won't fly if the Irish Govt insist on this measure.


Makes sense given their business model. They need plane to be filled close to 100% capacity in order for the flight to be profitable. Unlike a full service legacy, he has no point in flying at loss to preserve loyal clientele - their customers fly them primarily because of price. Hence even if they are grounded for number of months - their planes will be full in no time once travel resumes.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:54 pm

Personally I've been on quite a number of ventless Airbus aircraft but have always had one on a Boeing. But I tend to avoid Boeing widebodies anyway, at least in economy, save the 767.

As for the recirc air, nice explanation above and as far as we know the virus is not "airborn" it needs to be attached to a "droplet" basically someone coughs, a droplet lands on your hand, then you rub your eye. It's not going from one mouth to another unless you're doing more than just breathing.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:01 pm

I won't claim to be an expert, but having followed this situation, having worked in aircraft cabins, this is my take:

-MOL is right that physical distancing of leaving the middle seat empty is insufficient
-The most workable solution is to have 2 persons per row in a narrowbody, as follows:

OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX

O represents an empty seat, X an occupied seat

-Masks would have to be mandatory, if possible also goggles.
-ceiling vents blowing over the aisle and pesonal vents may need to be blocked off
-Boarding and deplaning procedures need to be changed

This means that a 189 seater becomes a 63 seater.
Oil is cheap, cabin crew can be reduced, so fares would only need to double.

It can be done.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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enzo011
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:02 pm

I think Ryanair has sold tickets with the assumption of a +90% load factor and thus they are priced that way to ensure a profit. The earlier you buy your tickets the cheaper they are. So if he has to work off a 66% load factor it messes with their costs and profit projections and more than a few flights will now fly at a loss even if they are "full" with the open seats.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:05 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
Personally I've been on quite a number of ventless Airbus aircraft but have always had one on a Boeing. But I tend to avoid Boeing widebodies anyway, at least in economy, save the 767.

As for the recirc air, nice explanation above and as far as we know the virus is not "airborn" it needs to be attached to a "droplet" basically someone coughs, a droplet lands on your hand, then you rub your eye. It's not going from one mouth to another unless you're doing more than just breathing.


Droplets can be inhaled.

A person who is speaking produces droplets too.

I suggest you to have a look at this, very intereesting stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVhVshh1yY
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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enzo011
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:06 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I won't claim to be an expert, but having followed this situation, having worked in aircraft cabins, this is my take:

-MOL is right that physical distancing of leaving the middle seat empty is insufficient
-The most workable solution is to have 2 persons per row in a narrowbody, as follows:

OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX

O represents an empty seat, X an occupied seat

-Masks would have to be mandatory, if possible also goggles.
-ceiling vents blowing over the aisle and pesonal vents may need to be blocked off
-Boarding and deplaning procedures need to be changed

This means that a 189 seater becomes a 63 seater.
Oil is cheap, cabin crew can be reduced, so fares would only need to double.

It can be done.



If you are leaving the middle seat open, then it surely is 4 passengers per row in a 737 or A320? The aisle counts as a seat as it is the same width so you have the same space separation between the 2 passengers on the aisle as between the aisle and window.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:14 pm

enzo011 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
I won't claim to be an expert, but having followed this situation, having worked in aircraft cabins, this is my take:

-MOL is right that physical distancing of leaving the middle seat empty is insufficient
-The most workable solution is to have 2 persons per row in a narrowbody, as follows:

OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX

O represents an empty seat, X an occupied seat

-Masks would have to be mandatory, if possible also goggles.
-ceiling vents blowing over the aisle and pesonal vents may need to be blocked off
-Boarding and deplaning procedures need to be changed

This means that a 189 seater becomes a 63 seater.
Oil is cheap, cabin crew can be reduced, so fares would only need to double.

It can be done.



If you are leaving the middle seat open, then it surely is 4 passengers per row in a 737 or A320? The aisle counts as a seat as it is the same width so you have the same space separation between the 2 passengers on the aisle as between the aisle and window.


Yes but it's insufficient because of strong airflows in the cabin.
So in my opinion you need to stagger pax as shown in my above post.


Even better if curtains are placed between rows, then a perfect separation can be achieved in the following configuration:

XOO OOX
--------------
XOO OOX
--------------
XOO OOX
--------------
XOO OXX < a couple sitting together
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Acey559
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:16 pm

My airline consulted with Boeing and Airbus because a few of us had questions as to whether or not recirc fans should be left on or turned off. Unequivocally both manufacturers said to leave the recirculation fans on. Cabin air is completely replaced every three minutes or so on my fleet (756), and I’m sure is similar or faster on newer planes. So the recirculated air, while not as good as 100% fresh air, is about as clean as you’ll get anywhere.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
ERAUMBA
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:34 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Polot wrote:
When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.

Airplanes are NOT like cruise ships. The air is better quality than most of the places you visit in your life. It's on par with the air quality in a hospital ICU.

Airflow comes out of the ceiling and exits at your feet at the cabin sidewall. Nearly all airflow is in that direction with very little movement between rows. The exchange rate is one of the highest in any public place. Yes, some is recirculated, I think most are about a 40% reuse per cycle. That reused air is fed through a HEPA filter before being introduced into the supply duct. The rest comes from the engine bleed system. That system takes very hot air off the compressor section of the engine and cools it to a usable temp to be fed into the cabin.


On par with air quality in an ICU?? Really?!?! Do you have scientific facts to prove this??? 20+ years in the business and I surely have NEVER read or heard that cabin air quality matches an ICU. For what it is worth, hospital ICU’s are notoriously infectious environments. Based on my personal experience, if I can smell the results of flatulence of my fellow passengers several rows away? Covid can certainly flow amongst that “filtered air” you mention....

Click this link and educate yourself:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aircre ... ality.html

A.net science - saving the airline world one nitwit at a time!
 
planecane
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
Personally I've been on quite a number of ventless Airbus aircraft but have always had one on a Boeing. But I tend to avoid Boeing widebodies anyway, at least in economy, save the 767.

As for the recirc air, nice explanation above and as far as we know the virus is not "airborn" it needs to be attached to a "droplet" basically someone coughs, a droplet lands on your hand, then you rub your eye. It's not going from one mouth to another unless you're doing more than just breathing.


Droplets can be inhaled.

A person who is speaking produces droplets too.

I suggest you to have a look at this, very intereesting stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVhVshh1yY


It would be very interesting if that lab could simulate the airflow of an aircraft cabin. Obviously if a passenger sneezes without covering it, I'd expect that to have a high risk of spread. What would be interesting is what happens to the micro droplets given the airflow inside the cabin.
 
32andBelow
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:58 pm

I think the airlines are saying this because They can for free. Their load factors are nowhere near 66%. And they are this will magically go away.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:06 pm

enzo011 wrote:
I think Ryanair has sold tickets with the assumption of a +90% load factor and thus they are priced that way to ensure a profit. The earlier you buy your tickets the cheaper they are. So if he has to work off a 66% load factor it messes with their costs and profit projections and more than a few flights will now fly at a loss even if they are "full" with the open seats.


This is spot-on!

LCC's need nearly-full planes to turn a profit. Flying with empty middle seats is a loss-making venture for Ryanair, or EasyJet, or Frontier, or Spirit, or AirAsia, or Lion Air, etc... I don't think all of the major LCC's that existed in January will still be around this time in 2021, but I hope I am wrong.

As far as "clean air" in the airliners' cabins, I hate to be the one to say this, but air travel is probably one of the key vectors that allowed the virus to spread around the globe so quickly.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:15 pm

With masks on, the velocity of any particle or droplet that manages to get past them is greatly reduced. It is statistically unlikely that anyone that is wearing a mask that is essentially as effective as two T-shirts lated over each other is going to spread a droplet beyond one foot from their person in a neutral air environment. Now, knowing that the net airflow in most passenger aircraft is downwards, droplet propogation should be more unlikely. Using PROPERLY FITTED N95 masks should effectively make the separation distance of 50% occupancy every other seat with stagger safe... Like such...

XOXAOXO
OXOAXOX
XOXAOXO

BUT!

How do you enforce this? What stops someone from taking off a mask in flight? Even if you just immediately land, that's still likely a half hour of exposure for everyone in the plane. What do you do about someone using the Lavatory without a mask? They just contaminated the air all over the cabin.

I think that it's going to have to be "assumed risk" for anyone buying a ticket. Provide air crew and cabin crew with full PPE with a mask, face shield, gloves, hazard coverall, etc. Have disposable masks for passengers that don't bring their own. No non-sealed dispensing of anything in the cabins. Let em fly full at traditional fares.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:15 pm

I'd say it's time to develop some type of open air plane, like a convertible! Fly at low altitudes.
 
flyoregon
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:18 pm

What do they propose to airlines (most regionals) that fly airplanes like any RJ, Q400, or A220 in a 2x2 or 2x3 configuration? Just fly them with 50% load factors?
 
Ziyulu
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:21 pm

In the future 95% of aircraft is 737, 320, 787, or 350, so all these have groups of 3 seating. 3-3 or 3-3-3. So middle seats exist in all.
 
787X30
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:37 pm

flyoregon wrote:
Just fly them with 50% load factors?


Distances in cabin need to be restricted to epidemiologically benign levels. Factually. Prices will go up. Airports will be spacious enough for the remaining demand, automatically.

In my humble opinion, airlines and other industry sources propagating to slap a piece of cloth onto pax's faces and carry on with packed 787-8s, are dreaming.

"Leaving free middle seats" is tricking yourself (MOL would be right in that) in that it'll squeeze you between at least two persons within that circle of 150cm around you which is the minimum mandated distance I know of. People already violate as little as that all the time. UK mandates 200cm or 6 feet. (The imperial variant of the virus obviously being less contagious...)
 
kimimm19
Posts: 429
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Now some 777s (I know, FR doesn't have any, heh) have no personal vents. I was on one of those around xmas time, and it felt like there was no airflow at all in the cabin. That may be an issue..


Many new widebodies don't come with personal vents. It's an optional extra so you may find them on some, but I've been on vent-less A330s, A350s, A380s, 777s and 787s.


Yes, it's definitely not a widebody type specific thing. If any trend, then I would say European airlines tend to have less frequent air vents than US carriers.
 
ProcurementGuy
Posts: 3
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:01 pm

Actually, the suggestion of requiring masks makes some sense. Cheap and probably quite effective as both the sick passengers are wearing masks stopping droplets and the yet-to-be-infected passengers wear masks filtering out much of the particles that escaped.

Every passenger is given a £1 mask at the gate. Those who refuse to wear one are denied boarding. The cost per passenger increases £1 and airlines can fly the planes full.

Ryanair will of course introduce a mandatory pandemic fee of £5 to cover this and make a profit out of the situation.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:02 pm

It won't ever be done. 90%+ load factor are crack cocaine for airline executives. And COVID 19 isn't going to break that habit. Flights now after being slashed to the bone are becoming full again. The gate next to mine yesterday they (AA) were oversold and asking for volunteers.
 
multimark
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:41 pm

TC957 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52394433
He says he won't fly if the Irish Govt insist on this measure.


Good.

I can't think of anything better for the environment, overwhelmed mass tourism destinations or the experience of flying than to have him grounded.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:23 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I won't claim to be an expert, but having followed this situation, having worked in aircraft cabins, this is my take:

-MOL is right that physical distancing of leaving the middle seat empty is insufficient
-The most workable solution is to have 2 persons per row in a narrowbody, as follows:

OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX
XOO XOO
OOX OOX

O represents an empty seat, X an occupied seat

-Masks would have to be mandatory, if possible also goggles.
-ceiling vents blowing over the aisle and pesonal vents may need to be blocked off
-Boarding and deplaning procedures need to be changed

This means that a 189 seater becomes a 63 seater.
Oil is cheap, cabin crew can be reduced, so fares would only need to double.

It can be done.

IATA guideline:

XOO OXO
OXO OOX
XOO OXO

Aisle seats not used to avoid contamination from crew working, and passengers accessing toilets.
 
787X30
Posts: 108
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:37 pm

smartplane wrote:
IATA guideline:

XOO OXO
OXO OOX
XOO OXO

Aisle seats not used to avoid contamination from crew working, and passengers accessing toilets.


That amounts to less than 100cm (<80 pitch, <60 across) in Eco. Not good enough imo. CoV won't negotiate b/c it's airlines.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:21 pm

The world is to small and too over populated for everyone to remain 6 feet apart. This all wreaks of government over reach and mob mentality panic.

If you are to scared to function then stay at home and out of society. The rest of us need to get on with our normal lives.

Airlines will be broke or no one will be able to fly because ticket prices will only be affordable by the wealthy. So if the vast majority of you never want to travel again then get on board with this. I’m sure none of you will want to go to another continent via boat. Also, make sure you stay away from mass transportation......so much for saving the environment.
 
dinot
Posts: 20
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Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:51 pm

Polot wrote:
When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.


Stop watching CNN, it's not recycled.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 187
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Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:55 pm

I do wonder where MOL wants to get his 90% load factor from ?
Italy , Spain , France or Germany ....... are all in lockdown. More than 60% of deaths in the whole world are in Europe ! So , even if I want to fly , where can I go ? I`m not interested to land on an ex-military airport in a boring nowhereland ! If it will be the rule in Europe to block seats and he can`t accept this rules , ground your fleet and prepare for your pension.
 
787X30
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:16 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:30 pm

oldJoe wrote:
I do wonder where MOL wants to get his 90% load factor from ?

The herd immunity crowd are burning for getting back to their, quote, normal lives.
 
itisi
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:37 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:05 am

More distance, less people.... Clearly its going to be of advantage and make people feel more comfortable.

Mol is just a greedy fool...
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
GDB
Posts: 13759
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:45 am

787X30 wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
I do wonder where MOL wants to get his 90% load factor from ?

The herd immunity crowd are burning for getting back to their, quote, normal lives.


If he thinks that, MOL might be in for a shock, even assuming a staged exit from lockdown in various countries Ryanair flies to, the economic effects will last.
Reigning in non essential spending, very frequent trips abroad, a market Ryanair and others helped to create, might not recover for a long time.
So he can blow his gas all he likes, as I mentioned before, it might be EASA who decides that changes in seating might be mandated, if only for a period of time.
He can always piss off to his stud farm, commune with the horses.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4760
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:19 am

The real problem would be when demand came back.

Airlines can't keep such seperation and make money. Airlines right now are getting huge government subsidies so empty no problems to do these spacings. This is really troubling cause if demand comes back we either have to subsidize the airlines to force distancing (which we can't afford) or let people be really close again without a vaccine. This whole thing is so complex when you actually think about it.
 
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aeromoe
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:36 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
I’m sure none of you will want to go to another continent via boat.


Quite the assumption. I'm an avid bird photographer and a boat is one of the best platforms for viewing pelagic, ocean-going birds. I thoroughly enjoyed a two-week cruise from Ft. Lauderdale to San Diego via the Panama Canal. I had absolutely no interest in the onboard entertainment. I was on the various outdoor decks throughout the cruise photographing countless birds, sea turtles, flying fish, etc.

As much as I enjoy flying, being on a boat (given good conditions) is not necessarily an undesirable thing.

Just my 2 cents.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Motormouth MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:06 am

ERAUMBA wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Polot wrote:
When you are stuck in a confined tube breathing in recirculated air unable to get away it really doesn’t matter how far apart you are from your fellow passengers. If one of them is sick you are at high risk of being infected. Similar reason as to why things like cruise ships, aircraft carriers, prisons, and nursing homes have all turned into hot spots.

It doesn’t hurt, but social distancing on planes is very much a placebo effect to make passengers feel safer.

Airplanes are NOT like cruise ships. The air is better quality than most of the places you visit in your life. It's on par with the air quality in a hospital ICU.

Airflow comes out of the ceiling and exits at your feet at the cabin sidewall. Nearly all airflow is in that direction with very little movement between rows. The exchange rate is one of the highest in any public place. Yes, some is recirculated, I think most are about a 40% reuse per cycle. That reused air is fed through a HEPA filter before being introduced into the supply duct. The rest comes from the engine bleed system. That system takes very hot air off the compressor section of the engine and cools it to a usable temp to be fed into the cabin.


On par with air quality in an ICU?? Really?!?! Do you have scientific facts to prove this??? 20+ years in the business and I surely have NEVER read or heard that cabin air quality matches an ICU. For what it is worth, hospital ICU’s are notoriously infectious environments. Based on my personal experience, if I can smell the results of flatulence of my fellow passengers several rows away? Covid can certainly flow amongst that “filtered air” you mention....

Click this link and educate yourself:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aircre ... ality.html

A.net science - saving the airline world one nitwit at a time!


Instead of attacking him, why don’t you spend your time researching the issue? He’s right. The CDC supports his claims:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... /faqs.html

And yes, ICU filter their air in effort to offer a sterile environment. Hospital acquired infections are generally a derivative of breakdowns in the system, not poor practices.
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:34 am

Or maybe he should just STFU and take some credit for aiding the spread of Covid-19 instead.
Ryanair kept flying people in and out of various Covid-19 hotspots to all over Europe long after the situation got out of control.
They only stopped when they were forced to.

I hope this whole situation with the pandemic will highlight some of the obvious downsides companies like Ryanair create.
Yeah, they helped make travelling cheap, but also helped make it a cheap experience. They have stimulated overtourism and overconsumption og airtravel.
As for the neccesity of social distancing on airplanes, that remains to be seen if that has an effect.
But it's not just the time you spend on the airplane. You also have to go to an airport, go through check-in, boarding etc., and then you end up at an overcrowded tourist destination.
So until there's a cure or a vaccine, it's probably a moot point to talk about social distancing on airplanes.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
Kikko19
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:30 am

more than middle seat taken would be good to distribute masks and goggles, i'd have no trouble to use them
 
ro318
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:41 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Or maybe he should just STFU and take some credit for aiding the spread of Covid-19 instead.
Ryanair kept flying people in and out of various Covid-19 hotspots to all over Europe long after the situation got out of control.
They only stopped when they were forced to.

I hope this whole situation with the pandemic will highlight some of the obvious downsides companies like Ryanair create.
Yeah, they helped make travelling cheap, but also helped make it a cheap experience. They have stimulated overtourism and overconsumption og airtravel.
As for the neccesity of social distancing on airplanes, that remains to be seen if that has an effect.
But it's not just the time you spend on the airplane. You also have to go to an airport, go through check-in, boarding etc., and then you end up at an overcrowded tourist destination.
So until there's a cure or a vaccine, it's probably a moot point to talk about social distancing on airplanes.


The majority of airlines continued flying until forced to stop so your point is??
The issue of flying passengers from hotspots isnt the airlines fault as most people were trying to get home it was the responsability of the authorities to check passengers upon arrival, something which to this day is still not being done in some countries...so your ryanair bashing is moot
 
asdf
Posts: 696
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:58 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
With masks on, the velocity of any particle or droplet that manages to get past them is greatly reduced. It is statistically unlikely that anyone that is wearing a mask that is essentially as effective as two T-shirts lated over each other is going to spread a droplet beyond one foot from their person in a neutral air environment. Now, knowing that the net airflow in most passenger aircraft is downwards, droplet propogation should be more unlikely.


dont know what your profession is

but because of the aerosol distribution of breath in the unfiltered air circulation system inviromemt used in planes its definitly possible to get enough of the sars-cov-2 exciters to develope a covid-19 infection

will of course depend of the lenght of stay and your personal immun status

masks would help if they are FFP3
but you wont want to wear them for a lot of hours ...
 
Galwayman
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:10 pm

O’Leary’s interview on sky news was brilliant , he doesn’t suffer fools gladly thankfully and he slammed Brandon the tax dodger beautifully .

Let people who are anxious stay home , let those willing to wear masks fly , it’s simple really
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 am

Re: MoL - leaving middle seat empty " idiotic "

Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:28 pm

ro318 wrote:
The majority of airlines continued flying until forced to stop so your point is??
The issue of flying passengers from hotspots isnt the airlines fault as most people were trying to get home it was the responsability of the authorities to check passengers upon arrival, something which to this day is still not being done in some countries...so your ryanair bashing is moot


Not all airlines continued.
Several stopped their flights to northern Italy long before they were forced to.
And it was not repatriation flights.
Ryanair kept bringing Italian tourist from Bergamo, Milan and Bologna around to their destinations in Europe long after the spread of Covid-19 went out of control
So no, I cry dry tears when MOL moans about social distancing on airplanes and loss of revenue.
He can take a bow and thank himself for the role his company has played in this pandemic.
I have learned never to expect Ryanair to take any form of (social)responsibilty.
Ryanair only cares about the short sighted profit of Ryanair.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle

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