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enilria
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To be in Compliance with CARES Act B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:05 pm

This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977.

New B6 routes:
Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
Las Vegas – San Diego
Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs
Salt Lake City – Bozeman
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
San Francisco – Sacramento
Orlando – Sarasota

https://paxex.aero/2020/04/jetblue-plan ... ompliance/
Last edited by SQ22 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title was misleading
 
MIflyer12
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:15 pm

This is the kind of BS that happens when carriers take government money without thinking the law will, actually, apply to them. It's right in the text of the legislation:

SEC. 3104. CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN AIR SERVICE.
The Secretary of Transportation is authorized to require, to the extent reasonable and practicable, an air carrier receiving loans and loan guarantees under section 3102 to maintain scheduled air transportation service as the Secretary of Transportation deems necessary to ensure services to any point served by that carrier before March 1, 2020. When considering whether to exercise the authority granted by this section, the Secretary of Transportation shall take into consideration the air transportation needs of small and remote communities.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... D7E5FDE92B

Did B6 management think they were going to get a grant of $685 million with no strings attached?

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... F&hasPdf=1
 
joeblow10
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:18 pm

enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977.

New B6 routes:
Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
Las Vegas – San Diego
Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs
Salt Lake City – Bozeman
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
San Francisco – Sacramento
Orlando – Sarasota

https://paxex.aero/2020/04/jetblue-plan ... ompliance/


Playing devils advocate here... But what do you really want the government to do in this situation? If you let the airlines have free reign over what they do and don’t operate, there would be some (looking at you, NK and F9) who would undoubtedly just park their planes and take the money.

OTOH, if you allowed certain exemptions, let’s say allowing a carrier to cut 15% of its stations, the smallest cities would be hit hardest, which really does hurt those cities and airports even harder. You can see the overlap in exemption requests for the ULCCs and B6. A lot of people forget that airports are going to be in a financial nightmare of their own for the next few years.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:29 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977.

New B6 routes:
Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
Las Vegas – San Diego
Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs
Salt Lake City – Bozeman
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
San Francisco – Sacramento
Orlando – Sarasota

https://paxex.aero/2020/04/jetblue-plan ... ompliance/


Playing devils advocate here... But what do you really want the government to do in this situation? If you let the airlines have free reign over what they do and don’t operate, there would be some (looking at you, NK and F9) who would undoubtedly just park their planes and take the money.

Every single airline would take the money, park planes, and lay everyone off--not just NK and F9. I honestly don't know what else you do when revenue is down 95+% for at least a quarter and quite possibly up to two years.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
hpff
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:30 pm

These are tag flights, AS has done the same, what exactly is the problem?
 
bravotango75
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:40 pm

Mixed feelings on this. The idea of allowing the Government to dictate which routes a carrier to serve al la the CAB back in the day, not good. However, the agreement clearly states what will be expected of said carrier. And I believe that similar rules are being applied to other industries. Again, Government interference, if not complete control of a private company that is not good. When the dust settles, we shall see if "private industry" will have a future in the US.
 
11C
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when carriers take government money without thinking the law will, actually, apply to them. It's right in the text of the legislation:

SEC. 3104. CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN AIR SERVICE.
The Secretary of Transportation is authorized to require, to the extent reasonable and practicable, an air carrier receiving loans and loan guarantees under section 3102 to maintain scheduled air transportation service as the Secretary of Transportation deems necessary to ensure services to any point served by that carrier before March 1, 2020. When considering whether to exercise the authority granted by this section, the Secretary of Transportation shall take into consideration the air transportation needs of small and remote communities.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... D7E5FDE92B

Did B6 management think they were going to get a grant of $685 million with no strings attached?

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... F&hasPdf=1


I think the key phrase, which can be interpreted to please either side of this argument is, “to the extent reasonable and practicable.” It’s fun to consider this as a black and white issue, but it clearly isn’t. This is an administration that has chosen loyalty over technical ability, so yes, there will be doubts about their leadership.
 
mxaxai
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:57 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when carriers take government money without thinking the law will, actually, apply to them. It's right in the text of the legislation:

But there's a difference between "don't cut certain essential routes!" and "add these routes between airports you never served before!". If we look at routes like SFO-SMF or MSY-IAH, UA would have been much better suited to serve these; SEA-PDX and SLC-BZN would be better served by DL or AS.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:02 pm

bravotango75 wrote:
Mixed feelings on this. The idea of allowing the Government to dictate which routes a carrier to serve al la the CAB back in the day, not good. However, the agreement clearly states what will be expected of said carrier. And I believe that similar rules are being applied to other industries. Again, Government interference, if not complete control of a private company that is not good. When the dust settles, we shall see if "private industry" will have a future in the US.



I would just see it as a a government loan. Private institutions would charge interest, the government has charged employment guarantees and service requirements. The individual companies have the discretion of taking the money and agreeing to the terms, or forgoing the cash and trying to survive on their own. In this case the B6 is complying with the covenants of the grant in the cheapest way possible.

mxaxai wrote:
But there's a difference between "don't cut certain essential routes!" and "add these routes between airports you never served before!". If we look at routes like SFO-SMF or MSY-IAH, UA would have been much better suited to serve these; SEA-PDX and SLC-BZN would be better served by DL or AS.


The government has not required any route be served (outside of those routes which are contracted by the EAS program), they have only dictated that an airline must continue to serve all of its destinations. The route by witch the airline provides that service is up to the airline to determine. Hence B6 is flying JFK-ORD-MSP.” B6 must continue to serve ORD and MSP, and they do not choose to fly JFK-MSP and JFK-ORD, so instead they operate ORD-MSP as a tag on. These routes are not new routes (lgb-psp excepted), they are just tags off existing flights intended to provide service to the airport.
Boiler Up!
 
NYCVIE
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:09 pm

mxaxai wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when carriers take government money without thinking the law will, actually, apply to them. It's right in the text of the legislation:

But there's a difference between "don't cut certain essential routes!" and "add these routes between airports you never served before!". If we look at routes like SFO-SMF or MSY-IAH, UA would have been much better suited to serve these; SEA-PDX and SLC-BZN would be better served by DL or AS.


I don't see what the issue is? These are all airports B6 serves and these new routes are just tags to flights that originate from JFK or BOS. So they are keeping these stations open by tagging the flights. Rather than JFK-ABQ and JFK-DEN there's now JFK-DEN-ABQ. As someone mentioned upthread AS is doing the same.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:42 pm

enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977./


No one forced B6 to participate in CARES Act financing.
 
CRJ5000
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:56 pm

Good for B6 for trying to skirt the rather obnoxious requirements of government bailout money. As others have mentioned, AS did it as well.

From a little digging I see that F9 is doing MCO-SRQ and probably more.
NK has CLE-CMH, AVL-GSO, OAK-SMF, PIT-LBE, STT-STX, among others.
If you're going to have to fly segments with a couple passengers on board, you might as well make them cheap to operate.
 
ericm2031
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:59 pm

AS is doing it, now B6, and UA has signaled it will too.
 
SELMER40
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:06 pm

enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977.

New B6 routes:
Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
Las Vegas – San Diego
Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs
Salt Lake City – Bozeman
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
San Francisco – Sacramento
Orlando – Sarasota


This is how Jet Blue [u]chose /u] to fly the requirements of Minimum Air Service Obligations For U.S.Carriers.... The B6 requirement for Bozeman is 1 flight a week and for Palm Springs is 3 flights a week, The required cities are those B6 served before March 1, 2020. The government didn't choose these routes or require them. Jet Blue scheduled the best way for Jet Blue.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
pdxtraveller
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:07 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when carriers take government money without thinking the law will, actually, apply to them. It's right in the text of the legislation:

But there's a difference between "don't cut certain essential routes!" and "add these routes between airports you never served before!". If we look at routes like SFO-SMF or MSY-IAH, UA would have been much better suited to serve these; SEA-PDX and SLC-BZN would be better served by DL or AS.


I don't see what the issue is? These are all airports B6 serves and these new routes are just tags to flights that originate from JFK or BOS. So they are keeping these stations open by tagging the flights. Rather than JFK-ABQ and JFK-DEN there's now JFK-DEN-ABQ. As someone mentioned upthread AS is doing the same.


Right. While it would probably be nice for B6 to stop flying to those smaller stations until demand comes back, it certainly makes more sense from a financial (and environmental) perspective to operate the tag flights as opposed to flying a longer segment with nobody onboard. The wording in the CARES act is somewhat open ended, and there's room for the gov't to grant waivers for service requirements on a case-by-case basis. Why the government is mandating service to places like PSP isn't entirely clear, since it's within driving range of the LA airports, but that isn't B6's decision to make. Like every airline, they're playing the hand they've been dealt.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:16 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
No one forced B6 to participate in CARES Act financing.


Exactly. B6 knew the terms of the CARE Act and STILL tried to get away with dumping many of their routes. I'm happy they got called out on it. What would keep every airline from taking the money and running if there wasn't enforcment of the stipulations for receiving assistance? Everyone has to play on the same field. I'm not sure why the outrage over this.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:23 pm

Nothing new here. Tag-ons were a popular way to extend your reach before the fortress hub model came into being. Early airlines routes were milk runs emulating train services (A - B - C - D - F). Some would get on and some would get off at every station, only occasionally would every seat be occupied.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
AEROFAN
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:34 pm

enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977.

New B6 routes:
Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
Las Vegas – San Diego
Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs
Salt Lake City – Bozeman
Denver – Albuquerque
New Orleans – Houston
San Francisco – Sacramento
Orlando – Sarasota

https://paxex.aero/2020/04/jetblue-plan ... ompliance/


How about B6 not accept the government handout and fly where it wants? Clearly you are more ticked off with the conditions of the loan than B6 management is.
The government is well within its right to demand conditions for the use of taxpayers' funds. If I lived in any of those cities I would expect service from every airline wanting to use my funds.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
11C
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:34 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977./


No one forced B6 to participate in CARES Act financing.


Since virtually all airlines have to participate to remain viable, your argument is not very compelling.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:40 pm

CRJ5000 wrote:
Good for B6 for trying to skirt the rather obnoxious requirements of government bailout money. As others have mentioned, AS did it as well.

From a little digging I see that F9 is doing MCO-SRQ and probably more.
NK has CLE-CMH, AVL-GSO, OAK-SMF, PIT-LBE, STT-STX, among others.
If you're going to have to fly segments with a couple passengers on board, you might as well make them cheap to operate.

And good for the government to remind B6 they are not their piggy bank and that the bailout money came with strings attached.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:41 pm

11C wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
enilria wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when the govt begins choosing which stations you must fly to. Hello 1977./


No one forced B6 to participate in CARES Act financing.


Since virtually all airlines have to participate to remain viable, your argument is not very compelling.

Then accept the conditions as laid out.
Don't hate the players, hate the game.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:03 pm

SELMER40 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
11C wrote:

Since virtually all airlines have to participate to remain viable, your argument is not very compelling.

Then accept the conditions as laid out.
Don't hate the players, hate the game.

I believe the Minimum Air Service act would apply even if B6 did not take the money.



As far as minimum air service is concerned in the US, those taking the CARES funds requires a minimum service level.

The only other US act that requires minimum air service is the Airline Deregulation act, and that act requires the DOT to ensure air service to any airport served prior to deregulation continues to revive service via an Essential Air Service program.
Boiler Up!
 
MrPeanut
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:12 pm

Are we delaying the inevitable? How many of the airlines that we are keeping afloat will declare bankruptcy or liquidate anyhow after government funding ends?

The 2nd and 3rd quarters are the quarters where US airlines make the most revenue to help carry them through the leaner winter months. Considering the low load factors in the 2nd and projected 3rd quarter of this year, it will be interesting to see how many can make it through Q1 of next year without declaring BK or liquidating (assuming no further government funding).
 
United1
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:19 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
AS is doing it, now B6, and UA has signaled it will too.


UA will be doing milk runs on some routes if the government doesn't grant the wavers they (and the state of HI) asked for.

ie: SFO-ITO-KOA-SFO, SFO-OGG-LIH-SFO on 738s.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
alfa164
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:33 pm

United1 wrote:
UA will be doing milk runs on some routes if the government doesn't grant the wavers they (and the state of HI) asked for.
ie: SFO-ITO-KOA-SFO, SFO-OGG-LIH-SFO on 738s.


The Hawaiian routes may be treated differently, since travel to and from the mainland and the islands is virtually nonexistent - by virtue of travel restrictions, not by choice. In cases like this, UA deserves a waiver.
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MKIAZ
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:40 pm

damn would love for them to keep Las Vegas – San Diego around after this is over
 
32andBelow
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:41 pm

It’s basically EAS if the government is paying. I also think PPP companies should be offering discounts during this time. Why is a plumber getting his entire payroll paid and still charging full price?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:26 pm

If they should need to serve all cities is another discussion really.

But sounds like more realistic solutions here as demand is showing no signs of a come back. They are coming up with more creative solutions to save money and still serve the airports. They might need these adjusted timetables for a while here. The triangle suggestions sounds good especially in more dense areas.

What a time to be a route planner. Who at b6 thought they would be putting slc-bozeman up in prime summer and delta couldn't care less. Gonna see some really interesting stuff as airlines are getting more creative. Route maps that look like the olden days. Multi stop routes and cities linked you wouldn't have guessed
 
usflyer msp
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:27 pm

Y'all are missing the point of the minimum service provision of the CARES Act. The point was to make sure smaller communities stay connected to national air service grid for economic and political reasons. DOT has to be consistent about the exceptions; they cannot just allow B6 to drop MSP and IAH but require AA to maintain service to Flagstaff and New Bern (which was the real point of the provision) - that would actually be punishing the legacy carriers for daring to serve smaller communities. The solution was not letting any carrier drop any city sans some sort of local ravel restriction.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:30 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Y'all are missing the point of the minimum service provision of the CARES Act. The point was to make sure smaller communities stay connected to national air service grid for economic and political reasons. DOT has to be consistent about the exceptions; they cannot just allow B6 to drop MSP and IAH but require AA to maintain service to Flagstaff and New Bern (which was the real point of the provision) - that would actually be punishing the legacy carriers for daring to serve smaller communities. The solution was not letting any carrier drop any city sans some sort of local ravel restriction.


Maybe I’m not the only one, but I’m not convinced that all of this is CARES Act-required service. If B6 has 30 or 40 pax who want to go BOS-ORD and 20 or 30 who want to go BOS-MSP, isn’t this a sensible solution, CARES Act or no?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
usflyer msp
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:36 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Y'all are missing the point of the minimum service provision of the CARES Act. The point was to make sure smaller communities stay connected to national air service grid for economic and political reasons. DOT has to be consistent about the exceptions; they cannot just allow B6 to drop MSP and IAH but require AA to maintain service to Flagstaff and New Bern (which was the real point of the provision) - that would actually be punishing the legacy carriers for daring to serve smaller communities. The solution was not letting any carrier drop any city sans some sort of local ravel restriction.


Maybe I’m not the only one, but I’m not convinced that all of this is CARES Act-required service. If B6 has 30 or 40 pax who want to go BOS-ORD and 20 or 30 who want to go BOS-MSP, isn’t this a sensible solution, CARES Act or no?


B6 had applied to temporarily drop MSP, DFW, IAH, SMF, RNO, and ABQ and rebook the passengers on AA and AS.
 
727LOVER
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:50 pm

From what I saw, one can not book MCO-SRQ

On F9, one could...only $11
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14424
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:52 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Y'all are missing the point of the minimum service provision of the CARES Act. The point was to make sure smaller communities stay connected to national air service grid for economic and political reasons. DOT has to be consistent about the exceptions; they cannot just allow B6 to drop MSP and IAH but require AA to maintain service to Flagstaff and New Bern (which was the real point of the provision) - that would actually be punishing the legacy carriers for daring to serve smaller communities. The solution was not letting any carrier drop any city sans some sort of local ravel restriction.


Maybe I’m not the only one, but I’m not convinced that all of this is CARES Act-required service. If B6 has 30 or 40 pax who want to go BOS-ORD and 20 or 30 who want to go BOS-MSP, isn’t this a sensible solution, CARES Act or no?


B6 had applied to temporarily drop MSP, DFW, IAH, SMF, RNO, and ABQ and rebook the passengers on AA and AS.


Thanks. That sort of proves my point; note that SRQ isn’t on the list but is now a tag.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
OB1504
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:42 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Nothing new here. Tag-ons were a popular way to extend your reach before the fortress hub model came into being. Early airlines routes were milk runs emulating train services (A - B - C - D - F). Some would get on and some would get off at every station, only occasionally would every seat be occupied.


Southwest still does this today. It’s a better use of resources to fly one full plane with an enroute stop than two half empty planes nonstop.
 
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spinkid
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:00 pm

I don't see these bookable either.

It makes sense to have some stipulations, but the FAA made them somewhat vague and airlines are taking advantage to reduce flying as much as possible.

EVERY carrier would just as soon close down because so few people are flying. Originally the FAA was using their February itineraries to base the requirements for summer which didn't make any sense because of the seasonal routes that would be mandatory off season.

They were allowed to combine metro areas, hence the consolidations at all of those.

If they served a city daily, they had to offer 3 flights a week, less than 5x per week and you had to retain 1x per week. The rules don't state that you have to fly to the same city.

To meet the new standard for Sarasota. They may only need to fly their 1 x per week from MCO
 
Chuska
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:02 pm

I think tag-ons are great. Hoping to see more of it like ABQ-ELP, BNA-MEM, MCI-ICT, BIL-GTF, long lost markets that had many flights for many years.
 
Chuska
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:05 pm

Instead of JFK-DEN-ABQ, B6 should do JFK-ABQ-BUR since those flights fuel stop in ABQ quite often anyway.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:37 pm

TO CLARIFY (and it is concerning that I have to on a.net)

THE GOVERNMENT DIDNT FORCE B6 TO START THESE ROUTES

THEY FORCED THEM TO CONTINUE SERVICE TO THESE STATIONS.

Traditionally served by long flights to JFK and BOS, this is a way for B6 to lose less money to smaller stations
 
11C
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:01 pm

alfa164 wrote:
United1 wrote:
UA will be doing milk runs on some routes if the government doesn't grant the wavers they (and the state of HI) asked for.
ie: SFO-ITO-KOA-SFO, SFO-OGG-LIH-SFO on 738s.


The Hawaiian routes may be treated differently, since travel to and from the mainland and the islands is virtually nonexistent - by virtue of travel restrictions, not by choice. In cases like this, UA deserves a waiver.

I agree, and I think waivers need to be looked at for lots of city pairs. It can’t be business as usual. I can understand the government throwing its weight around with the waivers, but ultimately the goal is to save the airline industry from folding. Some are looking at this from the point of view that the government has the last word because they provided the money. But it’s tax dollars we’re talking about, right? So find ways to save the industry, but that may mean allowing waivers, where they make sense.
 
santi319
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:11 pm

So London is not imminent then?
 
BooDog
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:17 pm

I'm calling out the original poster for stirring crap up. If he posted the routes as listed in the article, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
As listed in article:
The following new routes will operate as direct flights:

Boston – Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Boston – Denver – Albuquerque
Boston – New Orleans – Houston
Boston – Las Vegas – San Diego
Boston – Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs – New York/JFK
Long Beach – Salt Lake City – Bozeman
New York/JFK – Denver – Albuquerque
New York/JFK – New Orleans – Houston
New York/JFK – Las Vegas – San Diego
New York/JFK – Seattle – Portland, OR
New York/JFK – San Francisco – Sacramento
New York/JFK – Orlando – Sarasota

Instead of flying JFK to PDX and JFK to SEA, they are now flying JFK-PDX-SEA. That's it. No big deal. Original Poster makes it sound like these were just random flights added out of nowhere.
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bigb
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:32 pm

Hence is why you won’t see a MCO-SRQ available online but If one was to book JFK-SRQ then your only option will be JFK-MCO-SRQ.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:33 pm

ill never understand why, within the U.S. when a tag is added, people cant buy just the tag? How does that hurt anyone, it only helps and I for one have been asking for Intra-state Florida services to be expanded so we don't have to drive the killer roads forever. I would certainly book SRQ-MCO, I prefer it was RSW but all the same to me, and id like to see them add SRQ/RSW-FLL as well.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
dtremit
Posts: 166
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:39 pm

11C wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
This is the kind of BS that happens when carriers take government money without thinking the law will, actually, apply to them. It's right in the text of the legislation:

SEC. 3104. CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN AIR SERVICE.
The Secretary of Transportation is authorized to require, to the extent reasonable and practicable, an air carrier receiving loans and loan guarantees under section 3102 to maintain scheduled air transportation service as the Secretary of Transportation deems necessary to ensure services to any point served by that carrier before March 1, 2020. When considering whether to exercise the authority granted by this section, the Secretary of Transportation shall take into consideration the air transportation needs of small and remote communities.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... D7E5FDE92B

Did B6 management think they were going to get a grant of $685 million with no strings attached?

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... F&hasPdf=1


I think the key phrase, which can be interpreted to please either side of this argument is, “to the extent reasonable and practicable.” It’s fun to consider this as a black and white issue, but it clearly isn’t. This is an administration that has chosen loyalty over technical ability, so yes, there will be doubts about their leadership.


Well, and also "authorized to require," I suppose. Taken together they suggest a bit of discretion, and I'm not entirely sure it's unreasonable for B6 and others to have thought that there would be some flexibility.

I do wonder if they shot themselves in the foot by making half their requested exceptions be competitor hubs.
 
dtremit
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:45 pm

BooDog wrote:
I'm calling out the original poster for stirring crap up. If he posted the routes as listed in the article, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
As listed in article:
The following new routes will operate as direct flights:

Boston – Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Boston – Denver – Albuquerque
Boston – New Orleans – Houston
Boston – Las Vegas – San Diego
Boston – Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs – New York/JFK
Long Beach – Salt Lake City – Bozeman
New York/JFK – Denver – Albuquerque
New York/JFK – New Orleans – Houston
New York/JFK – Las Vegas – San Diego
New York/JFK – Seattle – Portland, OR
New York/JFK – San Francisco – Sacramento
New York/JFK – Orlando – Sarasota

Instead of flying JFK to PDX and JFK to SEA, they are now flying JFK-PDX-SEA. That's it. No big deal. Original Poster makes it sound like these were just random flights added out of nowhere.


Is there a reason why they have to fly so many of these routes out of both JFK and BOS? I feel like it would have been more flexible for them to keep (e.g.) BOS-IAH and JFK-MSY and just route passengers JFK-BOS-IAH or BOS-JFK-MSY. Likewise, couldn't they combine BOS and JFK passengers at MSY to continue to SAN?
 
airzona11
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:22 pm

Airlines want the government checkbook and we know the industry is like the telecom, natural/regional monopolies. As travelers, the last thing we want is for less service and higher fares, when they can use this as excuse to clean up the balance sheet.
 
727LOVER
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:26 pm

bigb wrote:
Hence is why you won’t see a MCO-SRQ available online but If one was to book JFK-SRQ then your only option will be JFK-MCO-SRQ.


In the month of May, I do not see it.

Leave JFK 9:05am...arrive.[/quote] SRQ 11:55am

Leave SRQ 1:13pm...arrive JFK 4:00pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
ill never understand why, within the U.S. when a tag is added, people cant buy just the tag?


Well....like I said earlier, F9 is offering MCO-SRQ for only $11
Hell, 3rd & 4th week of May----it's DAILY!
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
727LOVER
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:31 pm

BooDog wrote:
I'm calling out the original poster for stirring crap up. If he posted the routes as listed in the article, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
As listed in article:
The following new routes will operate as direct flights:

Boston – Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Boston – Denver – Albuquerque
Boston – New Orleans – Houston
Boston – Las Vegas – San Diego
Boston – Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs – New York/JFK
Long Beach – Salt Lake City – Bozeman
New York/JFK – Denver – Albuquerque
New York/JFK – New Orleans – Houston
New York/JFK – Las Vegas – San Diego
New York/JFK – Seattle – Portland, OR
New York/JFK – San Francisco – Sacramento
New York/JFK – Orlando – Sarasota

Instead of flying JFK to PDX and JFK to SEA, they are now flying JFK-PDX-SEA. That's it. No big deal. Original Poster makes it sound like these were just random flights added out of nowhere.



I am assuming that he figured some of us were following the news over the last week and KNEW that they were tag-ons. Did you really think Orlando-Sarasota was a new glitzy route?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
alfa164
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Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:33 pm

dtremit wrote:
BooDog wrote:
I'm calling out the original poster for stirring crap up. If he posted the routes as listed in the article, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As listed in article: The following new routes will operate as direct flights:
Boston – Chicago – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Boston – Denver – Albuquerque
Boston – New Orleans – Houston
Boston – Las Vegas – San Diego
Boston – Seattle – Portland, OR
Long Beach – Palm Springs – New York/JFK
Long Beach – Salt Lake City – Bozeman
New York/JFK – Denver – Albuquerque
New York/JFK – New Orleans – Houston
New York/JFK – Las Vegas – San Diego
New York/JFK – Seattle – Portland, OR
New York/JFK – San Francisco – Sacramento
New York/JFK – Orlando – Sarasota
Instead of flying JFK to PDX and JFK to SEA, they are now flying JFK-PDX-SEA. That's it. No big deal. Original Poster makes it sound like these were just random flights added out of nowhere.


Is there a reason why they have to fly so many of these routes out of both JFK and BOS? I feel like it would have been more flexible for them to keep (e.g.) BOS-IAH and JFK-MSY and just route passengers JFK-BOS-IAH or BOS-JFK-MSY. Likewise, couldn't they combine BOS and JFK passengers at MSY to continue to SAN?



They don't; they merely have to serve the cities. The could route it as a connecting flight or a non-stop from either hub (or even from another airport, if that was practical); if they choose to operate from both hubs, that was their choice.
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 pm

Re: CARES Act Forces B6 to Add Routes Like SFO-SMF,MCO-SRQ,MSY-IAH, SLC-BZN, etc

Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:27 am

CRJ5000 wrote:
Good for B6 for trying to skirt the rather obnoxious requirements of government bailout money. As others have mentioned, AS did it as well.

From a little digging I see that F9 is doing MCO-SRQ and probably more.
NK has CLE-CMH, AVL-GSO, OAK-SMF, PIT-LBE, STT-STX, among others.
If you're going to have to fly segments with a couple passengers on board, you might as well make them cheap to operate.


Is there a publicized list of the NK tags like this JetBlue article?

Question for all, what’s B6 doing with their RNO service?

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