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SpaceshipDC10
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Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:29 pm

The picture below triguered the question.



Back in 1986/87, Wardair removed from their fleet the two 742s they had received brand new less than ten years earlier. They were both newer and GE-powered compared to the -100s, which could count as fleet simplification since they had then DC-10s and A300s with such engines.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Wardair-Canada
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:05 pm

Depends if they were owned or leased. If the latter they maybe didn't like the leasing charges.

Or, if they were owned and needed the money the 747-200s could be seen as having the higher value, so made more sense to sell those, especially if between the 747-100s and DC-10s they had the aircraft to cover their network needs.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
SueD
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:44 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Depends if they were owned or leased. If the latter they maybe didn't like the leasing charges.

Or, if they were owned and needed the money the 747-200s could be seen as having the higher value, so made more sense to sell those, especially if between the 747-100s and DC-10s they had the aircraft to cover their network needs.


You know they went to your namesake sakes C-GXRA became G-GLYN and C-GXRD became G-NIGB

Wardair were transiting from an APEX -Visiting Families and Friends business towards a more scheduled operation (with increased frequencies and smaller aircraft )Didn’t go to plan !

C- FDJC remained in Canada and moved to Nationair on collapse (Did you know this frame has an unusual distinction in changing its Boeing customer code whilst on the production line - Should have gone to Braniff as a 747-127 (N602BN in Green ntu) but left directly to Wardair as a 1D1

C- FFUN also went to Nationair

C- FTOB an ex AIr Canada machine also had a short stint with Wardair

The 3 DC10s were also to leave the fleet in 1989

The replacement fleet would be 3 A300s primarily for trunk domestic and a dozen A310s for the Trans Atlantic schedules - On closing the A310s and crews would transfer the Canadian
Last edited by SueD on Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:56 pm

They were worth more and Wardair were trying to finance their A310 purchase so liquidity came in useful.
 
CanadianNorth
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:32 pm

The replies so far line up fairy well with how I understood the story as well.

Wardair for many years operated primarily vacation type charters, for which the 747s were a good fit. In the mid to late 1980s they pushed hard to get into the scheduled airline market, but one of the challenges was their main competitors operated fairly high frequencies on the trunk routes with connections to dozens of outstations and Wardair's fleet of 747s and DC-10s just wasn't suitable for this type of flying. The solution was they placed orders for A310s, MD-88s and F-100s, and also acquired some second hand A300s as filler.

The money for all of these orders had to come from somewhere, so they sold off a couple of 747s, and my guess is they likely found the -200s were worth more on the used market and for the flying they had at the time the -100s were probably good enough for now.
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Dominion301
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:39 pm

CanadianNorth wrote:
The replies so far line up fairy well with how I understood the story as well.

Wardair for many years operated primarily vacation type charters, for which the 747s were a good fit. In the mid to late 1980s they pushed hard to get into the scheduled airline market, but one of the challenges was their main competitors operated fairly high frequencies on the trunk routes with connections to dozens of outstations and Wardair's fleet of 747s and DC-10s just wasn't suitable for this type of flying. The solution was they placed orders for A310s, MD-88s and F-100s, and also acquired some second hand A300s as filler.

The money for all of these orders had to come from somewhere, so they sold off a couple of 747s, and my guess is they likely found the -200s were worth more on the used market and for the flying they had at the time the -100s were probably good enough for now.


They did indeed. Max Ward wrote in his fantastic autobiography that they sold the 747s for more than they paid for them. They actually did the same thing with their 707 and 727.

It’s too bad WD never pursued being TS as a sked airline instead of trying to take on AC and CP.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:51 pm

Wardair rarely made money operating the airline.

They made a ton of money trading iron though.

Eventually, there was nothing more to trade.

Max then schooled Rhys Eyton, selling him a near bankrupt airline and walking away like a bandit.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:59 pm

Interesting details here. I knew WD was about to transition to scheduled services with smaller aircraft, but I didn't consider the two -211Bs were sold for that matter.


SueD wrote:
C- FDJC remained in Canada and moved to Nationair on collapse (Did you know this frame has an unusual distinction in changing its Boeing customer code whilst on the production line - Should have gone to Braniff as a 747-127 (N602BN in Green ntu) but left directly to Wardair as a 1D1


For my part I know it, and I also know there's more to it than that. After it was NTUd by Braniff, it should have been delivered to Universal Airlines, hence the "D1", however that airline collapsed, and it ended up at Wardair a couple of years later. For some reason, C-FFUN, which was a former CO -124, was also changed to -1D1 even if Universal was long gone when it joined Wardair. WD's customer code was "11".
 
AB330
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:58 am

Just out of curiosty did both of Wardair B747-211B end up with PAL?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:29 pm

SueD wrote:
C- FTOB an ex AIr Canada machine also had a short stint with Wardair


It came in when the first -200B left, and remained until the end.

SueD wrote:
The 3 DC10s were also to leave the fleet in 1989


They left between May '88 and April '89s.

SueD wrote:
The replacement fleet would be 3 A300s primarily for trunk domestic


I always thought they were temporary until enough A310s were delivered.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:54 pm

SueD wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
Depends if they were owned or leased. If the latter they maybe didn't like the leasing charges.

Or, if they were owned and needed the money the 747-200s could be seen as having the higher value, so made more sense to sell those, especially if between the 747-100s and DC-10s they had the aircraft to cover their network needs.


You know they went to your namesake sakes C-GXRA became G-GLYN and C-GXRD became G-NIGB

I was aware. BCal picked up a right mixed bag of secondhand 747s in the 1980s for growth. I do wonder if they would have been disposed of first once the MD-11s came on stream but that's a totally other thread!

I suspect that Wardair, a bit like PanAm, got a good deal on the A310-300s from Airbus. Going with a small longhaul twin made sense given that AC was doing the same by converting some of its 767-233s to ER models (as well as taking new builds).
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:45 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
SueD wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
Depends if they were owned or leased. If the latter they maybe didn't like the leasing charges.

Or, if they were owned and needed the money the 747-200s could be seen as having the higher value, so made more sense to sell those, especially if between the 747-100s and DC-10s they had the aircraft to cover their network needs.


You know they went to your namesake sakes C-GXRA became G-GLYN and C-GXRD became G-NIGB

I was aware. BCal picked up a right mixed bag of secondhand 747s in the 1980s for growth. I do wonder if they would have been disposed of first once the MD-11s came on stream but that's a totally other thread!

I suspect that Wardair, a bit like PanAm, got a good deal on the A310-300s from Airbus. Going with a small longhaul twin made sense given that AC was doing the same by converting some of its 767-233s to ER models (as well as taking new builds).


The Wardair A310 order is possibly involved in the Karlheinz Schreiber / "Airbus Affair" which involved Air Canada's A320 order. Wardair had ordered and canceled the A310 once already, then put options in on 767-200ERs, before dropping those and ordering 12 A310-300s.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/ ... s-revealed
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:41 am

northstardc4m wrote:
The Wardair A310 order is possibly involved in the Karlheinz Schreiber / "Airbus Affair" which involved Air Canada's A320 order. Wardair had ordered and canceled the A310 once already, then put options in on 767-200ERs, before dropping those and ordering 12 A310-300s.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/ ... s-revealed


If I remember correctly, the original A310's order by Wardair was for the short range version, the only one available at the time. When they later ordered again the type, they had some with the longest range possible (-308s).
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:43 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
If I remember correctly, the original A310's order by Wardair was for the short range version, the only one available at the time. When they later ordered again the type, they had some with the longest range possible (-308s).

Wardair, like most airlines, always played A against B and as far as getting the best deals, Mr Ward was a master. But, internally, a longer range version was always required, of either type. The base need was LGW-YVR.

However, we had heard that Mr Ward rode in an AC 767-200 with PW engines and decided the “racket” did not meet the WD standard and revised his order to the A310-304. (Anyone that had ridden in an older 767 would understand.)

When the 747-200s were sold, it was at a profit. Just like about any sale/repurchase experienced by Wardair. It was assumed the DC-10s would cover the gap, that eventually the 747-133 of AC filled. But realistically, there were no routes in the WD system that a 747-100 couldn’t fly that a -200 could.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm

longhauler wrote:
But, internally, a longer range version was always required, of either type. The base need was LGW-YVR.


Of course, with such base need the A312 couldn't fit in their requirement. Were the -304s capable to handle it without restrictions?

longhauler wrote:
When the 747-200s were sold, it was at a profit. Just like about any sale/repurchase experienced by Wardair. It was assumed the DC-10s would cover the gap, that eventually the 747-133 of AC filled. But realistically, there were no routes in the WD system that a 747-100 couldn’t fly that a -200 could.


OK, so even Germany, even though I don't remember whether they flew there from the West Coast and with 747s could be reached.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:23 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Of course, with such base need the A312 couldn't fit in their requirement. Were the -304s capable to handle it without restrictions?

I flew several. I don’t recall any load restrictions. But don’t forget, WD’s configuration was only 196 passengers in a two class layout. Then 188 when the J sleeper seats were installed.
OK, so even Germany, even though I don't remember whether they flew there from the West Coast and with 747s could be reached.

I recall the DC-10s flying from the continent to YVR, but I’d be surprised if a 747-100 couldn’t as well.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why did Wardair retire/sell their 747-200s instead of the older -100s?

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:06 am

longhauler wrote:
But don’t forget, WD’s configuration was only 196 passengers in a two class layout. Then 188 when the J sleeper seats were installed.


Oh yes, there's that. WD wasn't cramming as many people on board as later airlines with their 250 to 264 configurations such as 2T, QN and TS.

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