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RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:29 pm

Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Has the government placed any restrictions on the guarantees like the Austrian and German ones have?


They didn’t go into more detail they then jumped to talk about restaurants reopening etc. I believe more details will follow soon. Also the use of the words “up to” suggests LX & WK might not take up the full amount either. Or maybe it is in stages who knows.
 
Blerg
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:30 pm

RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Has the government placed any restrictions on the guarantees like the Austrian and German ones have?


They didn’t go into more detail they then jumped to talk about restaurants reopening etc. I believe more details will follow soon. Also the use of the words “up to” suggests LX & WK might not take up the full amount either. Or maybe it is in stages who knows.


Interesting, thank you. Interestingly enough, Helvetic said they do not need state aid. Quite surprising really.
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:30 pm

Blerg wrote:
Austria's Chancellor Sebastian Kurz made a statement ahead of his meeting with LH CEO that they fear a scaled down Lufthansa Group could impact Vienna airport's status of a transfer hub. Seems like the Austrians will insist on Austrian Airlines remaining an important European carrier.

Let's see what happens in the coming hours, days and weeks. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

https://www.airliners.de/haben-interess ... wien/55128


Definitely. I imagine they won’t want to see it scaled down much but I’m also curious how far into the future the plans or discussions go. Maybe a scaled down Austrian isn’t acceptable long term but maybe it is for the next 3 years? Again who knows but wish I could be a fly on the wall in many of these discussions.
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:31 pm

Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Has the government placed any restrictions on the guarantees like the Austrian and German ones have?


They didn’t go into more detail they then jumped to talk about restaurants reopening etc. I believe more details will follow soon. Also the use of the words “up to” suggests LX & WK might not take up the full amount either. Or maybe it is in stages who knows.


Interesting, thank you. Interestingly enough, Helvetic said they do not need state aid. Quite surprising really.


I wonder if they have some sort of guaranteed payments in their agreement with LX?
 
Blerg
Posts: 4064
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:36 pm

RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Austria's Chancellor Sebastian Kurz made a statement ahead of his meeting with LH CEO that they fear a scaled down Lufthansa Group could impact Vienna airport's status of a transfer hub. Seems like the Austrians will insist on Austrian Airlines remaining an important European carrier.

Let's see what happens in the coming hours, days and weeks. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

https://www.airliners.de/haben-interess ... wien/55128


Definitely. I imagine they won’t want to see it scaled down much but I’m also curious how far into the future the plans or discussions go. Maybe a scaled down Austrian isn’t acceptable long term but maybe it is for the next 3 years? Again who knows but wish I could be a fly on the wall in many of these discussions.


Not only that but it is repeated that Austrian government isn't ruling out an investment into LH Group. Maybe in such a way they could finance OS' long term expansion and survival thus bypassing EU regulation. I still believe without a regional plane (less than 100 seats) OS can't keep on being a dominant player. For many regional destinations they fly to with multiple daily flights, the E95 might be too big. They always had a small plane, since the times of Tyrolean.
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:44 pm

Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Austria's Chancellor Sebastian Kurz made a statement ahead of his meeting with LH CEO that they fear a scaled down Lufthansa Group could impact Vienna airport's status of a transfer hub. Seems like the Austrians will insist on Austrian Airlines remaining an important European carrier.

Let's see what happens in the coming hours, days and weeks. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

https://www.airliners.de/haben-interess ... wien/55128


Definitely. I imagine they won’t want to see it scaled down much but I’m also curious how far into the future the plans or discussions go. Maybe a scaled down Austrian isn’t acceptable long term but maybe it is for the next 3 years? Again who knows but wish I could be a fly on the wall in many of these discussions.


Not only that but it is repeated that Austrian government isn't ruling out an investment into LH Group. Maybe in such a way they could finance OS' long term expansion and survival thus bypassing EU regulation. I still believe without a regional plane (less than 100 seats) OS can't keep on being a dominant player. For many regional destinations they fly to with multiple daily flights, the E95 might be too big. They always had a small plane, since the times of Tyrolean.


Agreed smaller planes also make sense to me. Maybe CRJ900s from elsewhere in the group?
 
Blerg
Posts: 4064
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:47 pm

RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:

Definitely. I imagine they won’t want to see it scaled down much but I’m also curious how far into the future the plans or discussions go. Maybe a scaled down Austrian isn’t acceptable long term but maybe it is for the next 3 years? Again who knows but wish I could be a fly on the wall in many of these discussions.


Not only that but it is repeated that Austrian government isn't ruling out an investment into LH Group. Maybe in such a way they could finance OS' long term expansion and survival thus bypassing EU regulation. I still believe without a regional plane (less than 100 seats) OS can't keep on being a dominant player. For many regional destinations they fly to with multiple daily flights, the E95 might be too big. They always had a small plane, since the times of Tyrolean.


Agreed smaller planes also make sense to me. Maybe CRJ900s from elsewhere in the group?


Austrian Airlines has experience with the CRJ as for the past two summers they were leasing two of them from Adria. Actually, it would be interesting to know whose idea it was to retire the Q400, Austrian Airlines' or LH Group's. With the Austrian government playing an active role these days, we might see a different scenario in Vienna with OS. Having a 116 seat plane as the smallest aircraft if your fleet isn't that great especially for an airline that insists on frequencies over capacity.
 
phofmannsair
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:28 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:37 pm

RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Here's the link https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases/media-releases-federal-council.msg-id-78944.html
 
Blerg
Posts: 4064
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:13 pm

Interview with André Dosé, first LX CEO back in 2002 when the airline was set up.

From the interview (rough translation from German):

Question: Swiss (LH Group) had a monopoly-like position at Zurich Airport before the pandemic crisis. And after the crisis?

Answer: It will be even more so. And that's not good for anyone, not even for Swiss!

Whole interview here: https://abouttravel.ch/reisebranche/die ... rker-sein/
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:21 pm

Blerg wrote:
Interview with André Dosé, st LX CEO back in 2002 when the airline was set up.

From the interview (rough translation from German):

Question: Swiss (LH Group) had a monopoly-like position at Zurich Airport before the pandemic crisis. And after the crisis?

Answer: It will be even more so. And that's not good for anyone, not even for Swiss!

Whole interview here: https://abouttravel.ch/reisebranche/die ... rker-sein/


Agreed to some extent but this goes for any airline at their hubs really I suppose. Supporting them won’t make that less but letting them go belly up will still be much worse for that airport and region. It’s how it is. Though you have a lot of connecting portions from ZRH via all major hubs so you can avoid LX if you want to. Ironically every time I’ve needed to go in or out LX was always cheaper (still way too much) than the competition, EasyJet included (for GVA in that case).
 
Blerg
Posts: 4064
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:24 pm

RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Interview with André Dosé, st LX CEO back in 2002 when the airline was set up.

From the interview (rough translation from German):

Question: Swiss (LH Group) had a monopoly-like position at Zurich Airport before the pandemic crisis. And after the crisis?

Answer: It will be even more so. And that's not good for anyone, not even for Swiss!

Whole interview here: https://abouttravel.ch/reisebranche/die ... rker-sein/


Agreed to some extent but this goes for any airline at their hubs really I suppose. Supporting them won’t make that less but letting them go belly up will still be much worse for that airport and region. It’s how it is. Though you have a lot of connecting portions from ZRH via all major hubs so you can avoid LX if you want to. Ironically every time I’ve needed to go in or out LX was always cheaper (still way too much) than the competition, EasyJet included (for GVA in that case).


From what I heard slots were difficult to get at ZRH so other airlines adding flights became increasingly difficult. I think that's partially what he was referring to.
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:27 pm

Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Interview with André Dosé, st LX CEO back in 2002 when the airline was set up.

From the interview (rough translation from German):

Question: Swiss (LH Group) had a monopoly-like position at Zurich Airport before the pandemic crisis. And after the crisis?

Answer: It will be even more so. And that's not good for anyone, not even for Swiss!

Whole interview here: https://abouttravel.ch/reisebranche/die ... rker-sein/


Agreed to some extent but this goes for any airline at their hubs really I suppose. Supporting them won’t make that less but letting them go belly up will still be much worse for that airport and region. It’s how it is. Though you have a lot of connecting portions from ZRH via all major hubs so you can avoid LX if you want to. Ironically every time I’ve needed to go in or out LX was always cheaper (still way too much) than the competition, EasyJet included (for GVA in that case).


From what I heard slots were difficult to get at ZRH so other airlines adding flights became increasingly difficult. I think that's partially what he was referring to.


Similar story I guess to AMS, LHR etc. But that’s a card many airlines, especially LCCs play for some noise but when it comes to it I’m sure FR or someone could have entered ZRH. If ChAir or however it is spelled managed you’d think FR could have put a few flights?
 
Blerg
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:29 pm

RvA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
RvA wrote:

Agreed to some extent but this goes for any airline at their hubs really I suppose. Supporting them won’t make that less but letting them go belly up will still be much worse for that airport and region. It’s how it is. Though you have a lot of connecting portions from ZRH via all major hubs so you can avoid LX if you want to. Ironically every time I’ve needed to go in or out LX was always cheaper (still way too much) than the competition, EasyJet included (for GVA in that case).


From what I heard slots were difficult to get at ZRH so other airlines adding flights became increasingly difficult. I think that's partially what he was referring to.


Similar story I guess to AMS, LHR etc. But that’s a card many airlines, especially LCCs play for some noise but when it comes to it I’m sure FR or someone could have entered ZRH. If ChAir or however it is spelled managed you’d think FR could have put a few flights?


I think airlines that struggled to expand in ZRH are those that offer connections at their home airports so they couldn't be flexible with slots. Those who rely on O&D traffic can be more flexible.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1298
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:55 pm

It will be interesting to see the balance sheets evolve.

The LH Group is starting off with 10 billions in net assets.
Loans do not affect this.
But their 22 billions in property and plants may have halved in value.

So what happens to the existing loans?
When the collateral's value plummets, the lenders become nervous...

So loan guarantees are nice but they may not even be enough to cover the existing loans.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:26 pm

Blerg wrote:
Austria's Chancellor Sebastian Kurz made a statement ahead of his meeting with LH CEO that they fear a scaled down Lufthansa Group could impact Vienna airport's status of a transfer hub. Seems like the Austrians will insist on Austrian Airlines remaining an important European carrier.

Let's see what happens in the coming hours, days and weeks. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

https://www.airliners.de/haben-interess ... wien/55128


This is a perfect example of what happens when you play second (or third, if you consider Swiss the 2nd fiddle) fiddle and you become expendable to save the Mothership.

Don't want to be relegated? Run your own national airline, but don't expect the Germans to look out for anyone but the Germans (or the French, the french...cough...AF-KLM)
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:28 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
It will be interesting to see the balance sheets evolve.

The LH Group is starting off with 10 billions in net assets.
Loans do not affect this.
But their 22 billions in property and plants may have halved in value.

So what happens to the existing loans?
When the collateral's value plummets, the lenders become nervous...

So loan guarantees are nice but they may not even be enough to cover the existing loans.


Same thing that happens with a mortgage on a falling property value. The bank can't do anything unless you break a covenant (in the mortgage example it would be missing payments), and the government bailout is probably designed to help Lufthansa avoid breaking covenants by not having enough cash or failing to make a payment.

If the value falls enough, rationally the company should declare a planned Ch. 11 (if it were in the USA) - like I would imagine American Airlines will do not too far in the future...
 
Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:44 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Austria's Chancellor Sebastian Kurz made a statement ahead of his meeting with LH CEO that they fear a scaled down Lufthansa Group could impact Vienna airport's status of a transfer hub. Seems like the Austrians will insist on Austrian Airlines remaining an important European carrier.

Let's see what happens in the coming hours, days and weeks. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

https://www.airliners.de/haben-interess ... wien/55128


This is a perfect example of what happens when you play second (or third, if you consider Swiss the 2nd fiddle) fiddle and you become expendable to save the Mothership.

Don't want to be relegated? Run your own national airline, but don't expect the Germans to look out for anyone but the Germans (or the French, the french...cough...AF-KLM)


Which is why Austria should have nationalized OS. They were struggling during LH Group era so it's not like it can get much worse while being a government run business.
 
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Terrier79
Posts: 76
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:00 pm

Blerg wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Don't want to be relegated? Run your own national airline, but don't expect the Germans to look out for anyone but the Germans (or the French, the french...cough...AF-KLM)


Which is why Austria should have nationalized OS. They were struggling during LH Group era so it's not like it can get much worse while being a government run business.

Austrian was a mess when it was a national airline, badly managed, heavily loss making. Actually since they have been part of the Lufthansa group, OS turned from a fat lazy uncompetitive state run public authority to a somewhat normal business that had the intention to make money.
 
Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:17 pm

Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Don't want to be relegated? Run your own national airline, but don't expect the Germans to look out for anyone but the Germans (or the French, the french...cough...AF-KLM)


Which is why Austria should have nationalized OS. They were struggling during LH Group era so it's not like it can get much worse while being a government run business.

Austrian was a mess when it was a national airline, badly managed, heavily loss making. Actually since they have been part of the Lufthansa group, OS turned from a fat lazy uncompetitive state run public authority to a somewhat normal business that had the intention to make money.


Cute, I guess what matters is that they had the intention to make money. It doesn't really matter if they did, are or have the ability to do so. LH Group or not OS is nowhere near to being a stable and profitable business.
 
curlowl
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:48 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:30 pm

Blerg wrote:
Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Which is why Austria should have nationalized OS. They were struggling during LH Group era so it's not like it can get much worse while being a government run business.

Austrian was a mess when it was a national airline, badly managed, heavily loss making. Actually since they have been part of the Lufthansa group, OS turned from a fat lazy uncompetitive state run public authority to a somewhat normal business that had the intention to make money.


Cute, I guess what matters is that they had the intention to make money. It doesn't really matter if they did, are or have the ability to do so. LH Group or not OS is nowhere near to being a stable and profitable business.


You’re right. No more LH profitability snark.

IAG wasn’t interested back in 2009, but (and I know this is controversial) AF/KLM would have been a better fit.

LH Group would have killed off OS on day one and just run hourly A321 shuttles between VIE and MUC if they could.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 187
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:32 pm

Blerg wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Austria's Chancellor Sebastian Kurz made a statement ahead of his meeting with LH CEO that they fear a scaled down Lufthansa Group could impact Vienna airport's status of a transfer hub. Seems like the Austrians will insist on Austrian Airlines remaining an important European carrier.

Let's see what happens in the coming hours, days and weeks. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.

https://www.airliners.de/haben-interess ... wien/55128


This is a perfect example of what happens when you play second (or third, if you consider Swiss the 2nd fiddle) fiddle and you become expendable to save the Mothership.

Don't want to be relegated? Run your own national airline, but don't expect the Germans to look out for anyone but the Germans (or the French, the french...cough...AF-KLM)


Which is why Austria should have nationalized OS. They were struggling during LH Group era so it's not like it can get much worse while being a government run business.


And Austria didn`t go this road for a good reason. OS was standing on the very outside of a cliff. They were struggling already in a big time and that is pretty much the reality, like it or not. LH didn`t get them for free ! The Austrian government maybe had in mind what happend to Swiss Air and decided this is the best way do come out of the disaster. Burning taxpayers money into something they have no clue how to rescue , isn`t the best idea at all.
 
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Terrier79
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:34 pm

Blerg wrote:
Terrier79 wrote:
Austrian was a mess when it was a national airline, badly managed, heavily loss making. Actually since they have been part of the Lufthansa group, OS turned from a fat lazy uncompetitive state run public authority to a somewhat normal business that had the intention to make money.


Cute, I guess what matters is that they had the intention to make money. It doesn't really matter if they did, are or have the ability to do so. LH Group or not OS is nowhere near to being a stable and profitable business.


LH Group was a stable and profitable business before the Corona crisis, which resulted in many businesses and airlines to teeter on the brink of the abyss.
I never said that OS was a prosperous and thriving business, but at least they turned small profits in the recent years instead of hundreds of millions of losses when they were a state run business.
Without the backing of LH Group OS has zero chance to survive.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1508
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:38 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
It will be interesting to see the balance sheets evolve.

The LH Group is starting off with 10 billions in net assets.
Loans do not affect this.
But their 22 billions in property and plants may have halved in value.

So what happens to the existing loans?
When the collateral's value plummets, the lenders become nervous...

So loan guarantees are nice but they may not even be enough to cover the existing loans.


Same thing that happens with a mortgage on a falling property value. The bank can't do anything unless you break a covenant (in the mortgage example it would be missing payments), and the government bailout is probably designed to help Lufthansa avoid breaking covenants by not having enough cash or failing to make a payment.

Commercial lending covenants include ratios, so at risk of breach before missed payments.

Financiers including lessors, where willing and able, are racing to amend covenant values to avoid triggering breaches, as well as deferring or cancelling due payments for the same reason.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:32 pm

smartplane wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
It will be interesting to see the balance sheets evolve.

The LH Group is starting off with 10 billions in net assets.
Loans do not affect this.
But their 22 billions in property and plants may have halved in value.

So what happens to the existing loans?
When the collateral's value plummets, the lenders become nervous...

So loan guarantees are nice but they may not even be enough to cover the existing loans.


Same thing that happens with a mortgage on a falling property value. The bank can't do anything unless you break a covenant (in the mortgage example it would be missing payments), and the government bailout is probably designed to help Lufthansa avoid breaking covenants by not having enough cash or failing to make a payment.

Commercial lending covenants include ratios, so at risk of breach before missed payments.

Financiers including lessors, where willing and able, are racing to amend covenant values to avoid triggering breaches, as well as deferring or cancelling due payments for the same reason.



Yes, but they won't do it just to pleasure the companies and without other risk-reduction mechanisms.
Breaching covenants triggers renegotiations and you can bet that covenants are going to be breached like it's nothing.
Airlines have little to offer except state guarantees, which are really meant for new loans. But they'll find ways to apply them to existing loans because those need to be saved first.
 
Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:18 am

Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Terrier79 wrote:
Austrian was a mess when it was a national airline, badly managed, heavily loss making. Actually since they have been part of the Lufthansa group, OS turned from a fat lazy uncompetitive state run public authority to a somewhat normal business that had the intention to make money.


Cute, I guess what matters is that they had the intention to make money. It doesn't really matter if they did, are or have the ability to do so. LH Group or not OS is nowhere near to being a stable and profitable business.


LH Group was a stable and profitable business before the Corona crisis, which resulted in many businesses and airlines to teeter on the brink of the abyss.
I never said that OS was a prosperous and thriving business, but at least they turned small profits in the recent years instead of hundreds of millions of losses when they were a state run business.
Without the backing of LH Group OS has zero chance to survive.


And now they do with their collapsing EBIT profits, shrinking regional and long-haul fleet...? Even before corona OS was struggling and were posting really uninspiring numbers during an extremely economically healthy period in Europe. In 2018 and 2019 they expanded massively in order to compete with LCCs and that backfired big time. LH Group is hailed as a hero in the case of OS but from what I can see the real hero here is the Austrian government which is the only one that wants Austrian Airlines saved. For Lufthansa a hub in Vienna is obsolete, they have Munich for their transfers. If LH Group could have it their way Eurowings would take over all operations in Vienna. If I remember correctly that was their initial plan when they took over Austrian Airlines.

If Austrian Airlines struggled as a government owned business and if it kept on struggling as part of LH Group, then maybe the real problem is not who owns the airline but the airline itself? Maybe their fate is to become a new Air France (mostly loss making with occasional periods of profits) or to exist like Alitalia.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4064
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:23 am

Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Terrier79 wrote:
Austrian was a mess when it was a national airline, badly managed, heavily loss making. Actually since they have been part of the Lufthansa group, OS turned from a fat lazy uncompetitive state run public authority to a somewhat normal business that had the intention to make money.


Cute, I guess what matters is that they had the intention to make money. It doesn't really matter if they did, are or have the ability to do so. LH Group or not OS is nowhere near to being a stable and profitable business.


LH Group was a stable and profitable business before the Corona crisis, which resulted in many businesses and airlines to teeter on the brink of the abyss.
I never said that OS was a prosperous and thriving business, but at least they turned small profits in the recent years instead of hundreds of millions of losses when they were a state run business.
Without the backing of LH Group OS has zero chance to survive.


By the way, here are their results for Q3 2019. They managed to break-even after that period, so just before the traditionally weak Q4 when most airlines don't really make money. Since there is no indication that LCCs are going to slow down in Vienna what is the future of OS? Perpetual funding of OS by the government or maybe they will chase LCCs from Vienna so that OS can go back to charging €550 for VIE-OTP?

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/Press/P ... CB68ED8%7D
 
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Terrier79
Posts: 76
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Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:41 am

Blerg wrote:
By the way, here are their results for Q3 2019. They managed to break-even after that period, so just before the traditionally weak Q4 when most airlines don't really make money. [...]

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/Press/P ... CB68ED8%7D

The adjusted EBIT for Q4 was 1 million EUR.

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/~/media ... E2715.ashx

The adjusted EBIT for whole 2019 was down from EUR 83 Million in 2018 to EUR 19 million in 2019. “We succeeded in achieving positive results despite tough competition. This was the consequence of implementing massive cost reductions,” says Austrian Airlines CFO Wolfgang Jani. Of course: that’s not a thriving business.

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/Press/P ... g=en&mode={30999B4B-42D0-45A6-B671-FE5E3CB68ED8}

Blerg wrote:
Since there is no indication that LCCs are going to slow down in Vienna what is the future of OS? Perpetual funding of OS by the government or maybe they will chase LCCs from Vienna so that OS can go back to charging €550 for VIE-OTP?


Isn’t there really any indication? Anisec/Level already reduced their route network due to business figures being below expectations. Lauda is struggling hard and I guess the chances that MoL will pull the plug are high. With new social distancing measures coming for airline travel, new hygiene standards and procedures, the cost baseline for Ryanair will also be different from today.
 
User avatar
Executor
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:16 pm

RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html
 
Blerg
Posts: 4064
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:35 pm

Terrier79 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
By the way, here are their results for Q3 2019. They managed to break-even after that period, so just before the traditionally weak Q4 when most airlines don't really make money. [...]

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/Press/P ... CB68ED8%7D

The adjusted EBIT for Q4 was 1 million EUR.

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/~/media ... E2715.ashx

The adjusted EBIT for whole 2019 was down from EUR 83 Million in 2018 to EUR 19 million in 2019. “We succeeded in achieving positive results despite tough competition. This was the consequence of implementing massive cost reductions,” says Austrian Airlines CFO Wolfgang Jani. Of course: that’s not a thriving business.

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/Press/P ... g=en&mode={30999B4B-42D0-45A6-B671-FE5E3CB68ED8}

Blerg wrote:
Since there is no indication that LCCs are going to slow down in Vienna what is the future of OS? Perpetual funding of OS by the government or maybe they will chase LCCs from Vienna so that OS can go back to charging €550 for VIE-OTP?


Isn’t there really any indication? Anisec/Level already reduced their route network due to business figures being below expectations. Lauda is struggling hard and I guess the chances that MoL will pull the plug are high. With new social distancing measures coming for airline travel, new hygiene standards and procedures, the cost baseline for Ryanair will also be different from today.


So much wishful thinking on your behalf. First of all, EBIT means the business' performance before taxes and interest payments meaning there is more to deduct from that 'final' number. In 2019 they might have had some sort of a profit but definitely not in 2019. You are forgetting that LH itself said that they are not going to invest in their long-haul product before they reach profitability. Why would their parent compan have that attitude if OS was truly and really that profitable and thriving? Please explain to me that.

Second of all, Ryanair is not going anywhere in Vienna and MOL said it himself that he is getting ready for a fares war once coronavirus situation starts to normalize. So I guess Lauda/Ryanair are not going anywhere. Same for Wizz Air which I think even added an A321 to Vienna before the crisis. Both airlines know that OS can't outlast them so they are keeping the pressure until they break.

My point is that the aid Austrian Airlines will receive won't mean much unless they adapt to new realities. If they don't do that then we will have similar topics in a few months time.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:29 pm

Executor wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:11 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Executor wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


Has Easyjet requested something from the CH government and were denied?
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:41 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Executor wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


EasyJet CH can make use of other options and can get funds that way.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:46 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Executor wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a

standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


It clearly states they do not have enough turn over to access this particular facility. Rules are clear and applied in an unbiased way. No disadvantaging anyone unfairly as implied by your post. We all know now, you resent support for the LH group. I get it. But this isn't helpful.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:53 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Executor wrote:
RvA wrote:
LX and WK support is now confirmed.

Liquidity aid for Swiss and Edelweiss: The federal government guarantees a maximum loan of CHF 1,275 billion.

No link as heard it, not yet seen it online.


Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


Please read the sources. There are rules in Switzerland. This rules state, that Easyjet Switzerland does not qualify. Interestingly due to the low turnover they qualify for other government help programs. It is clearly stated who qualifies for which program and therefore you do not need to politicize the topic on a LX vs Easyjet basis as your allegations and comments are not funded on facts.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:21 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Executor wrote:

Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


Please read the sources. There are rules in Switzerland. This rules state, that Easyjet Switzerland does not qualify. Interestingly due to the low turnover they qualify for other government help programs. It is clearly stated who qualifies for which program and therefore you do not need to politicize the topic on a LX vs Easyjet basis as your allegations and comments are not funded on facts.


Edelweiss qualifies but Easyjet Switzerland doesn't.
The revenues between these airlines can't be that different.

Switzerland to Easyjet CH: OOoooohh I'm so sorry, your revenue is too low by 1 CHF to quallify and we need to respect the rules that we made up. That's such a pitty for you.


And yes, Easyjet Switzerland did ask for state aid:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/covid-19_e ... s/45657490
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:31 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


Please read the sources. There are rules in Switzerland. This rules state, that Easyjet Switzerland does not qualify. Interestingly due to the low turnover they qualify for other government help programs. It is clearly stated who qualifies for which program and therefore you do not need to politicize the topic on a LX vs Easyjet basis as your allegations and comments are not funded on facts.


Edelweiss qualifies but Easyjet Switzerland doesn't.
The revenues between these airlines can't be that different.

Switzerland to Easyjet CH: OOoooohh I'm so sorry, your revenue is too low by 1 CHF to quallify and we need to respect the rules that we made up. That's such a pitty for you.


And yes, Easyjet Switzerland did ask for state aid:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/covid-19_e ... s/45657490


Edelweiss are part of Swiss so they are treated as a single entity. And easyJet will qualify for a different type of state aid. Nothing to see here...move along
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:32 pm

Did all LH Group pilots just announce they want to cut their salary by 45% for two years?
 
User avatar
Executor
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:51 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Executor wrote:

Actually, the loan maximum loan amount will be CHF 1.5 bn, of which 85% (CHF 1.275 bn) will be guaranteed by the Swiss government. A banking consortium led by UBS and Credit Suisse will provide the loan (the two major banks will together provide the first billion).

A further CHF 600 mn will be provided to support "aviation-related businesses". In this case, it could take the form of direct loans from the Swiss government.

EasyJet Switzerland, Swissport, Gategroup and SR Technics have all been excluded from this facility:
- EasyJet doesn't meet the criteria and could apply for a

standard COVID19 bridging credit (as its turnover is under CHF 500 mn per year).
- The corporate structure at Swissport and Gategroup don't meet the criteria.
- SR Technics has enough collateral to finance itself.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78944.html


So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


It clearly states they do not have enough turn over to access this particular facility. Rules are clear and applied in an unbiased way. No disadvantaging anyone unfairly as implied by your post. We all know now, you resent support for the LH group. I get it. But this isn't helpful.


With all due respect, you seem to have misunderstood this part.

EasyJet CH does not meet the criteria set by the Swiss government. Therefore, they cannot receive such loan guarantee. That's the first part, and it's not linked to any insufficient turnover.

The turnover part is a different aspect. Switzerland has put in place a COVID19 bridging credit concept, where all businesses (not only aviation) whose turnover is below CHF 500 mn per year can request a loan partially guaranteed by the government. The press release (correctly) states that EasyJet CH meets this criteria and therefore can (and could already before yesterday) request such a loan.

Although we don't know which criteria EZS doesn't meet, some newspaper noted that they recently paid a GBP 60 mn dividend to their parent company. This would fit the official narrative saying that the airline "should be able to cover its liquidity needs via its parent company".
 
RvA
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:02 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

So Swiss gets a loan, but not Easyjet Switzerland.
This is how quickly a bailout becomes a subsidy.


Please read the sources. There are rules in Switzerland. This rules state, that Easyjet Switzerland does not qualify. Interestingly due to the low turnover they qualify for other government help programs. It is clearly stated who qualifies for which program and therefore you do not need to politicize the topic on a LX vs Easyjet basis as your allegations and comments are not funded on facts.


Edelweiss qualifies but Easyjet Switzerland doesn't.
The revenues between these airlines can't be that different.

Switzerland to Easyjet CH: OOoooohh I'm so sorry, your revenue is too low by 1 CHF to quallify and we need to respect the rules that we made up. That's such a pitty for you.


And yes, Easyjet Switzerland did ask for state aid:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/covid-19_e ... s/45657490


Ok then... Let us know when you’re back on the same planet as the rest of us.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:07 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Please read the sources. There are rules in Switzerland. This rules state, that Easyjet Switzerland does not qualify. Interestingly due to the low turnover they qualify for other government help programs. It is clearly stated who qualifies for which program and therefore you do not need to politicize the topic on a LX vs Easyjet basis as your allegations and comments are not funded on facts.

if the Swiss government doesn't want suspicions to linger that the supposedly empirical rules were crafted to include only certain companies, it will have to disclose how it determined that easyJet's parent company was financially strong enough to support easyJet Switzerland, whereas Lufthansa could not provide a proportional level of support for Swiss. Unless and until that is clear, it will have the appearance of the government playing favorites.

Not to mention this nugget in "the source" you linked to: "The aviation-related businesses required to maintain Switzerland's international links, such as Swissport International, Gategroup and SR Technics, operate worldwide and are majority-owned by Asian investors. The current corporate structures of Swissport and Gategroup do not yet permit financial support from the Confederation under the conditions laid down." Again, this needs a much deeper explanation, because right now it reads as Asians bad and German (investor) good. Not a good look.

I read the April 8, 2020 press release that is referenced in what you call "the source" and I find no explanation as to why easyJet Switzerland or companies owned by Asian investors do not quality. Granted, it is only a press release and is probably short of details... But details there needs to be if the government doesn't want to be accused of playing favorites.
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 78741.html
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:11 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
Did all LH Group pilots just announce they want to cut their salary by 45% for two years?


Hasn't the German government asked pilots to make concessions anyway as a condition for giving state aid?
As if they had a choice about it.

Airlines are in a liquidity crisis. They can worry about profits later, right now they're looking for cash.

If pilots want to help, they can loan their savings.
If the taxpayer can fork out 75.000 EUR per emloyee in the group, surely high-earning pilots can make a similar contribution to save their own jobs?
 
marcelh
Posts: 1029
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:21 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
Did all LH Group pilots just announce they want to cut their salary by 45% for two years?


Hasn't the German government asked pilots to make concessions anyway as a condition for giving state aid?
As if they had a choice about it.

Airlines are in a liquidity crisis. They can worry about profits later, right now they're looking for cash.

If pilots want to help, they can loan their savings.
If the taxpayer can fork out 75.000 EUR per emloyee in the group, surely high-earning pilots can make a similar contribution to save their own jobs?


I suggest this thread to be locked. It's nothing more than a personal rant.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:21 pm

RvA wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Please read the sources. There are rules in Switzerland. This rules state, that Easyjet Switzerland does not qualify. Interestingly due to the low turnover they qualify for other government help programs. It is clearly stated who qualifies for which program and therefore you do not need to politicize the topic on a LX vs Easyjet basis as your allegations and comments are not funded on facts.


Edelweiss qualifies but Easyjet Switzerland doesn't.
The revenues between these airlines can't be that different.

Switzerland to Easyjet CH: OOoooohh I'm so sorry, your revenue is too low by 1 CHF to quallify and we need to respect the rules that we made up. That's such a pitty for you.


And yes, Easyjet Switzerland did ask for state aid:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/covid-19_e ... s/45657490


Ok then... Let us know when you’re back on the same planet as the rest of us.


The planet full of corruption, selective subsidies, airlines bullying governments using employees as human shields?
Thanks for the offer, I prefer to stay on my planet where accountability, fairness, responsible and equitable governance are the foundations of a civil society.
A little virus comes along and suddenly there are no rules or new rules are made up to suit agenda's.
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:28 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
Did all LH Group pilots just announce they want to cut their salary by 45% for two years?


The pilot union is heavily scared about the possible insolvency which was brought up in recent days. Because similar to the US Chapter 11, LH would be able to cancel deals with unions and also terminate not needed pilots (and other staff) much easier.
They also sent a joint letter with LH and another union (Ver.di) to the government thanking them for the possible help.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:30 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
Did all LH Group pilots just announce they want to cut their salary by 45% for two years?


Hasn't the German government asked pilots to make concessions anyway as a condition for giving state aid?
As if they had a choice about it.

Airlines are in a liquidity crisis. They can worry about profits later, right now they're looking for cash.

If pilots want to help, they can loan their savings.
If the taxpayer can fork out 75.000 EUR per emloyee in the group, surely high-earning pilots can make a similar contribution to save their own jobs?


I just asked about news.
45% is really high. And it was not mentioned anywhere yet anything about percentages.

I wonder how this news if it is true will be taken at AFKLM.
45% salary cant be the monthly salary you get but 45% of salary + pension deposits etc.
But I have not seen a confirmation of anything yet.
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1882
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Lufthansa 10+ Billion EUR package: bailout or megasubsidy?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:41 pm

Thread went off topic and will be locked.

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