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NYCVIE
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:50 pm

Anyways, as I said this is posturing from MOL. He knows that if he seriously requested the aid it would come with many provisions they don't want. I would imagine there would also be limitations given a good amount of Lauda services don't even touch Austria.

The whole argument of state aid and the EU is largely irrelevant anyways because the EU has already made it clear that they will allow aid to airlines (see- AF/KL/SK,Condor).

It is also truly beyond me that Malev, Cyprus, Alitalia state aid is being compared to the type of loans we are discussing here. Malev and Cyprus were forced bankrupt because Hungary and Cyprus governments, respectively, were infusing money that they realistically were not expecting to get back and towards carriers that had no chance of becoming viable. It is different to what we are talking about now because these are a) loans that will be repaid and b) they will come with significant provisions that will lead to concessions from the airlines receiving them.

oxonrow wrote:
Why are so many of you so down on FR? A late entrant onto the market that managed to shake things up. Yes, we should weed out unfair practices, but the way the law is laid out the airline does bring connectivity to places that didn't have it before or had no competition. Legacy carriers do not benefit from indirect subsidies? Can anyone seriously argue that? We have a major problem in this industry in Europe, where our petty nationalisms get in a way and make for a highly imperfect market. The likes of FR actually do tremendously well transcending this obstacle and we're all better for it as consumers. Next step is the environment, a serious issue to address, but let's move this discussion up a notch.

I applaud Ryanair for truly revolutionizing air travel in Europe and making it more accessible for more people. I think that is extremely important to recognize. I don't think Ryanair's issue is that they are stateless. It is that even in non-Irish countries that they have significant operations in, they make every attempt to circumvent those countries' labor laws. The aircraft are registered elsewhere and the employees are all on foreign contracts. So in that scenario, what real claim do they have for any sort of government aid?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:58 pm

Blerg wrote:
Wizz Air has also spoken against state aid given to LH Group airlines. Airline official said that it is throwing good money after bad money and that it would be used to support airlines that struggled even before Corona.

Source: https://www.austrianaviation.net/detail ... 0-starten/

It is also reported that Wizz Air will resume certain Vienna flight starting from May 1st. They expect initially for demand to remain low but they will stimulate demand through low fares.

The EU - whose rules many here hate with a passion - has guidelines how to support companies in trouble: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 4XC0731(01)
Germany and Austria both copied these guidelines for their national rescue programs. I'm sure both FR or W6 can go to court (be that in Germany, Austria or the ECJ); I'd be surprised to see them actually do it. Any company can apply for aid under these programs.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:06 pm

fraT wrote:
As mentioned in another thread, OS is not a German airline. It's an airline registered and headquartered in Austria which is owned by LHG.
Also Wizz and Level are not bases in Austria. They are only operating from/to Austria.


Level Europe, previously Anisec, which operates Levels flights out of VIE is vey much an Austrian airline based in Austria.
 
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par13del
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:37 am

Ok, here's another question, the EU has been pushing its carbon trading and have been trying to clamp down on the airlines, the last effort stalled on the international front due to the international convention.
Now carriers all over the world are struggling and the EU can finally put the clamps on their carriers as an example for the world to follow, so whats the problem?
Where are the carbon trading and environmentalist, why are they not lining up to pressure governments to let the airlines fend for themselves or die? Where are those who were so intent on public shaming folks using private aircraft and pax flying all over the place, the media gave them air time before, why not now?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:10 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Anyways, as I said this is posturing from MOL. He knows that if he seriously requested the aid it would come with many provisions they don't want. I would imagine there would also be limitations given a good amount of Lauda services don't even touch Austria.

The whole argument of state aid and the EU is largely irrelevant anyways because the EU has already made it clear that they will allow aid to airlines (see- AF/KL/SK,Condor).

It is also truly beyond me that Malev, Cyprus, Alitalia state aid is being compared to the type of loans we are discussing here. Malev and Cyprus were forced bankrupt because Hungary and Cyprus governments, respectively, were infusing money that they realistically were not expecting to get back and towards carriers that had no chance of becoming viable. It is different to what we are talking about now because these are a) loans that will be repaid and b) they will come with significant provisions that will lead to concessions from the airlines receiving them.

oxonrow wrote:
Why are so many of you so down on FR? A late entrant onto the market that managed to shake things up. Yes, we should weed out unfair practices, but the way the law is laid out the airline does bring connectivity to places that didn't have it before or had no competition. Legacy carriers do not benefit from indirect subsidies? Can anyone seriously argue that? We have a major problem in this industry in Europe, where our petty nationalisms get in a way and make for a highly imperfect market. The likes of FR actually do tremendously well transcending this obstacle and we're all better for it as consumers. Next step is the environment, a serious issue to address, but let's move this discussion up a notch.

I applaud Ryanair for truly revolutionizing air travel in Europe and making it more accessible for more people. I think that is extremely important to recognize. I don't think Ryanair's issue is that they are stateless. It is that even in non-Irish countries that they have significant operations in, they make every attempt to circumvent those countries' labor laws. The aircraft are registered elsewhere and the employees are all on foreign contracts. So in that scenario, what real claim do they have for any sort of government aid?

I believe the complex contract system would prevent significant aid. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber
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Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:26 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Why is it contradictory? Lauda is part of Ryanair and they are the ones that are financing their survival, money is moved around internally. So why isn't Lufthansa financing Austrian Airlines the same way Ryanair is financing Lauda? Why do they need the government to assist them?

It doesn't really matter why or why not. If the government is giving loans out to airlines OS is able to negotiate one, as is FR legally speaking. If FR chooses to not take this option that doesn't mean it is unfair that someone else did.

Blerg wrote:
Of course Lauda employs 1/8 of what OS does but then again, how old is OS and how old is Lauda?

OK and what about it? I'm saying in the current landscape as an employer of Austrians, OS is way more important than Lauda factually speaking. Then add into the fray that many of the Lauda employees are not even under Austrian contracts...

Blerg wrote:
Maybe your answer is there. Furthermore, are you really using the US argument as an advantage just after OS discontinued MIA and downgraded LAX to a summer seasonal destination with fewer frequencies? Seems like the market might not be that big. Makes you wonder how big it would be if you remove transfers.

Convenient of you to mention MIA was being discontinued but omit the fact that it was discontinued in favor of another US station, BOS.


How is Austrian more important if it is not a self-sustaining business? That means that their collapse will eventually come since neither the government nor LH Group really know what to do with it. They were not doing that well before corona, what makes you think they will after? They can't compete for O&D due to their costs and their hub which relies on transfers will shrink in the coming months. So what will OS be left with? Loss making local traffic and reduced volume of transfer passengers. It's not really promising. I have flown on Austrian Airlines at least 60 times and they used to be a great airline but it's no secret that they have been mistreated by LH Group in recent years. One way around this LCC onslaught was to invest in the long-haul product and to concentrate on transfer passengers. Unfortunately it seems like Lufthansa is not interested in that. My guess is because Munich is just too close.

As for Boston, it doesn't matter because this is more of the same, Austrian Airlines launching and then suspending destinations. Boston is not growth, it's mere reshuffling. Same way they suspended Toronto in order to launch Montreal. With three B763 leaving the fleet let's see if Boston actually sticks around or if it will be suspended like so many long-haul routes until now.
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:33 am

Seems like Ryanair's claims regarding Austrian Airlines reached the Austrian Ministry of Finance. In an interview for Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung , Minister Gernot Blümel, stated that if Austrian taxpayers have to bailout Austrian Airlines, a German company, then guarantees have to be provided, location protection and more.

Google Translate translated this paragraph like this, so if there are any native German speakers maybe they can clarify what was exactly meant:

The finance minister did not rule out Austria's participation in Lufthansa itself: "I am currently not ruling out anything and do not prejudice anything."
------------------------------------------------------
Eine staatliche Beteiligung Österreichs an der Lufthansa selbst schloss der Finanzminister nicht aus: „Ich schließe zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt nichts aus und präjudiziere nichts.“

Is he implying that Austrian Airlines might invest in Lufthansa?

Source:
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/oe ... 42648.html
 
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seahawk
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:26 am

Yes, that is what he is saying.
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:34 am

seahawk wrote:
Yes, that is what he is saying.


It sure would be interesting if Austrian gets some shares in Lufthansa Group. I guess it would be one way to make sure Austrian Airlines grows in the future.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:37 am

But the EU should forbid this, we do not need government controlled airlines. This is the end of competition, either make money available to all airlines or let the fat legacies fall.
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:40 am

seahawk wrote:
But the EU should forbid this, we do not need government controlled airlines. This is the end of competition, either make money available to all airlines or let the fat legacies fall.


But there is no mechanism to stop governments from doing this, or am I wrong? From what I know there are laws forbidding governments from providing aid to their airlines (more than once a decade).
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:56 am

seahawk wrote:
But the EU should forbid this, we do not need government controlled airlines. This is the end of competition, either make money available to all airlines or let the fat legacies fall.


You may want to consider that the entire industry is in a death struggle because of an unforseen event, so the normal rules dont apply.
It is responsible government policy to try to protect vital companies and infrastructure that the countrys economy depends on.
Tax dodging Ryanair with their social dumping employment practices is no such thing.

It is not easy not to have friends anywhere when you need them.

Ryanair can apply for help with government of their latest tax haven Malta where most of their aircraft are now registered.

Good luck with that.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
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seahawk
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:05 am

Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:20 am

seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.


Perhaps many governments have come to realize, that social dumping employment practices and endless subsisdies from regional airports is not fair, nor wanted, competition.
And again, you probably won't find a more subsidised airline than Ryanair (perhaps AZ).
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
Eikie
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:47 am

seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.

While constantly brushing against the law, often seeing themselves at the wrong side of it.

Just recently they were forced to rehire 224 pilots which they unlawfully fired, which isn't the first time.
Multiple times they were fined for taking illegale subsidies, not following the law, etc.

They caused a lot of misery for those 10 quid flight to the sun...
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:34 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.


Perhaps many governments have come to realize, that social dumping employment practices and endless subsisdies from regional airports is not fair, nor wanted, competition.
And again, you probably won't find a more subsidised airline than Ryanair (perhaps AZ).


I agree. I could see many governments around Europe being uncomfortable with Ryanairs way of treating their employees...
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:32 pm

Blerg wrote:
They can't compete for O&D due to their costs and their hub which relies on transfers will shrink in the coming months. So what will OS be left with? Loss making local traffic and reduced volume of transfer passengers. It's not really promising.

It is strange you keep saying they cannot compete because of costs when OS is most likely the only profitable airline at VIE? Lauda is already confirmed loss making, and I cannot see Anisec or Wizz making profit on their VIE ops.

Blerg wrote:
One way around this LCC onslaught was to invest in the long-haul product and to concentrate on transfer passengers. Unfortunately it seems like Lufthansa is not interested in that. My guess is because Munich is just too close.

Huh? The plan was always to invest in short haul and that's why the Dashes were/are being quickly removed in favor of more A320s. Other than premium economy there has been no long-haul product investment in years and the last long haul aircraft arrived before Wizz and Lauda were even operating in Vienna. So the focus in fighting LCC competition has always been on increasing short haul capacity.

Blerg wrote:
As for Boston, it doesn't matter because this is more of the same, Austrian Airlines launching and then suspending destinations. Boston is not growth, it's mere reshuffling. Same way they suspended Toronto in order to launch Montreal. With three B763 leaving the fleet let's see if Boston actually sticks around or if it will be suspended like so many long-haul routes until now.

Again, incorrect. Boston was to be flown at higher frequency than Miami. Toronto was just transferred to Air Canada with whom they have a metal-neutral revenue sharing JV while Montreal was started. LX does the same thing - AC flies ZRH-YYZ and LX flies ZRH-YUL. So this is an increase in capacity...

Blerg wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But the EU should forbid this, we do not need government controlled airlines. This is the end of competition, either make money available to all airlines or let the fat legacies fall.


But there is no mechanism to stop governments from doing this, or am I wrong? From what I know there are laws forbidding governments from providing aid to their airlines (more than once a decade).

The reality is that the EU and many governments around the world have determined that normal state aid rules can be amended during this obviously extraordinary time.

seahawk wrote:
But the EU should forbid this, we do not need government controlled airlines. This is the end of competition, either make money available to all airlines or let the fat legacies fall.

They aren't government controlled? These are loans that will be repaid. Loans that any airline may apply for. The reason these LCCs won't ask though is because they know the concessions they would have to make to get the loan far outweigh the cost of just eating the current losses. Do you think for example the German government would sign a blank check to Ryanair, even though the vast majority of that airline's operations do not touch Germany and the majority of employees are not even on German contracts (first Irish, now Maltese)? Do you think they should?

Dahlgardo wrote:
You may want to consider that the entire industry is in a death struggle because of an unforseen event, so the normal rules dont apply.
It is responsible government policy to try to protect vital companies and infrastructure that the countrys economy depends on.
Tax dodging Ryanair with their social dumping employment practices is no such thing.

It is not easy not to have friends anywhere when you need them.

Ryanair can apply for help with government of their latest tax haven Malta where most of their aircraft are now registered.

Good luck with that.

Exactly! Ryanair is THE pioneer of race to the bottom employment practices in European aviation. Nice that it works out for them in good times but IMO one of the obvious issues with this was always going to be the difficulty of Ryanair to secure any meaningful government support in times of crisis because their entire model is built from evading paying local tax.
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:07 pm

OS' financial performance has been worsening ever since the LCC war started in Vienna so obviously their costs aren't allowing them to compete in these new circumstances. So in the end no one might be making money in Vienna but with much lower costs, Wizz Air and Lauda have a much higher chances of survival. Not to mention that they have safe income sources from their parent company, something OS doesn't have.

Yes, increasing short haul capacity in such a sense that they are sacrificing their transfer business. By removing the Q400s they are potentially putting at risk many feeder destinations. So don't be overly confident in their actions because it's highly likely they will backfire soon. Replacing a 70 seat turboprop with a 174 seat A320 might not be the best idea especially in these times.

The fact they transferred YYZ to AC in stead of flying it themselves, in addition to launching Montreal, is the very definition of not growing but merely reshuffling. Same thing with Boston and Miami. They didn't stick to flying both but they ended up cutting Miami the same way they cut many other destinations. There is definitely a downward trend when it comes to long-haul and it will get much worse now when three B767s leave their fleet. God knows what else they'll cut/downsize. Actually they still haven't secured their rescue package so let's see how much damage they have to deal with once the money arrives and how long it will last them once the war with LCCs resumes. I am sorry but I just don't see a scenario where OS makes it in the end, at least not unscathed and on the brink of bankruptcy.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:25 pm

seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.

If the only important thing for you is reduced fares and FR only asks for fair competition , wow that`s quiet alot ? If FR was fair from their startup they would not exist to begin with !
Once I was in urgent need to go from Malaga to Frankfurt. I asked different airlines for ticket price and here we go :
Iberia ~ 520 € Malaga-Madrid Frankfurt
Air Berlin ~ 540 € Malaga-Frankurt
Ryanair ~ 500 Malaga-Stansted-Hahn and by bus Frankfurt
and finally Condor exactly 125 € Malaga Frankfurt with a hot meal , a perfect service , no other fees and on the top I could talk in german with them !!!
If you are so fanatic about FR , did you ever work under FR`s conditions ? I will not believe it. Go and hire as a pilot with them. Stay tuned , you have to bring money with you
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:08 am

oldJoe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.

If the only important thing for you is reduced fares and FR only asks for fair competition , wow that`s quiet alot ? If FR was fair from their startup they would not exist to begin with !
Once I was in urgent need to go from Malaga to Frankfurt. I asked different airlines for ticket price and here we go :
Iberia ~ 520 € Malaga-Madrid Frankfurt
Air Berlin ~ 540 € Malaga-Frankurt
Ryanair ~ 500 Malaga-Stansted-Hahn and by bus Frankfurt
and finally Condor exactly 125 € Malaga Frankfurt with a hot meal , a perfect service , no other fees and on the top I could talk in german with them !!!
If you are so fanatic about FR , did you ever work under FR`s conditions ? I will not believe it. Go and hire as a pilot with them. Stay tuned , you have to bring money with you


You do know Condor almost went bankrupt and the only way they survived is because the German government provided them with a half a billion lifeline. I am sure those €125 helped them get there.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:53 am

oldJoe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.

If the only important thing for you is reduced fares and FR only asks for fair competition , wow that`s quiet alot ? If FR was fair from their startup they would not exist to begin with !
Once I was in urgent need to go from Malaga to Frankfurt. I asked different airlines for ticket price and here we go :
Iberia ~ 520 € Malaga-Madrid Frankfurt
Air Berlin ~ 540 € Malaga-Frankurt
Ryanair ~ 500 Malaga-Stansted-Hahn and by bus Frankfurt
and finally Condor exactly 125 € Malaga Frankfurt with a hot meal , a perfect service , no other fees and on the top I could talk in german with them !!!
If you are so fanatic about FR , did you ever work under FR`s conditions ? I will not believe it. Go and hire as a pilot with them. Stay tuned , you have to bring money with you


If they find people willing to work for them, the concept works and it is (or should be) a free market, where cleverness and innovation makes you win. And FR is innovative and clever. No help for legacy airlines!
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:17 am

If they find people willing to work for them, the concept works and it is (or should be) a free market, where cleverness and innovation makes you win. And FR is innovative and clever. No help for legacy airlines![/quote]

So, according to your logic, as long as they find people desperate to find a job (so that they can pay their bills, bring money to their families, pay their mortgages, etc), they should be allowed to handle their employees as the want to. I beg to differ, what we don't need are companies (or monsters) that only care about making money (without regarding the impact they make on their own employees, local economies or countries they serve). What we don't need are companies that want to go back to the old XIX century ways of treating employees. Thank God we still have laws that protect employees from employers like FR!
Flying Together
 
RvA
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:54 am

seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.


They also brought down the working conditions across the industry in Europe too. Flying staff being contracted out via other companies and having far less pay and benefits than with other companies. Has Ryanair pushed everyone to be more efficient? Absolutely. Is all of that for the best? Depends on your position.

Btw, you say Ryanair doesn’t want help. How do you know this? Are you on their board? Ryanair will also not weather this storm without support is my prediction. They are waiting now to see what happens with their main competitors and I foresee them also joining in and getting support. However given their structure it might be much more opaque and harder to see as they are spread across Europe much more than say KLM is. And it might be all their sub contractor providers that go get the support and then we may never even hear about it as that slips under the radar.
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:28 pm

Embajador3 wrote:
If they find people willing to work for them, the concept works and it is (or should be) a free market, where cleverness and innovation makes you win. And FR is innovative and clever. No help for legacy airlines!


So, according to your logic, as long as they find people desperate to find a job (so that they can pay their bills, bring money to their families, pay their mortgages, etc), they should be allowed to handle their employees as the want to. I beg to differ, what we don't need are companies (or monsters) that only care about making money (without regarding the impact they make on their own employees, local economies or countries they serve). What we don't need are companies that want to go back to the old XIX century ways of treating employees. Thank God we still have laws that protect employees from employers like FR![/quote]

Maybe it's time to start thinking of legislation that protects companies against unions being too greedy as we've seen in many cases around Europe, especially in France. Workers need to realize that if they don't like a certain job, they are more than welcome to quit and go elsewhere.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:50 pm

Dear Mr. O’Leary

You can of course submit a complaint. Unfortunately, if since you did not complete the process three months ago and print the complaint vouchers yourself, you needs to pay an extra compensation complaint fee, 1.2B€ for each billion you complain about. Plus 52.40€ credit card fee. It is all in our conditions document, did you not read it?

Which card do you want this to be put on, Sir?
 
ewt340
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:10 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Good morning,

Seems like Ryanair is stepping up its fight against national airlines receiving state aid from their respective governments. It all started recently when the Austrian government expressed interest in financially supporting Austrian Airlines but not other airlines based in Austria (Lauda, Wizz Air and Level).

Now it seems the situation has escalated to such an extent that Ryanair is threatening the EU with legal action. From the article:

'Michael O’Leary, Ryanair’s chief executive, said in a letter to competition commissioner Margrethe Vestager that the European Union would be “forced into an embarrassing U-turn” on state aid if Ryanair won a legal challenge. The national programmes should be modified so that Ryanair could get a share of the bailout packages by making sure loan guarantees and other perks are available to “all EU airlines in proportion to their share of traffic in a particular country,” Mr O’Leary said in the April 9th letter seen by Bloomberg.'

To be honest this does seem like discrimination and they could potentially win in court especially in Austria. Austrian Airlines is actually a German company operating in Austria while Lauda is an Irish one also operating from Vienna. So how come one is eligible for state aid but the other isn't?

Let's see what becomes of this.

Source:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.4237144


Another of MOLs specialties : a free publicity stunt
I admit he is good at it, but I wish journalists would use more of their critical senses and just ignore his continous, self rightious and self promoting drivel.
Ryanair has sucked many millions out of local airport and municipals and has been convicted in several countries for recieving illegal subsidies.
That airline has no class what so ever.


This doesn't make me want to fly Ryanair at all. Most of their costumers would look for the cheapest prices. Ryanair got EasyJet and Wizzair on its doorstep.

This old school free publicity doesn't work no more, it's all about value. ANd his mouth didn't provide any value into the ticket prices. The internet search is.
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:42 pm

Blerg wrote:
Maybe it's time to start thinking of legislation that protects companies against unions being too greedy as we've seen in many cases around Europe, especially in France. Workers need to realize that if they don't like a certain job, they are more than welcome to quit and go elsewhere.


I'm no fan of too powerful unions, but on the other hand I see unions as a neccesity in order to balance the power between the employer and the employee.

And if you think some unions are greedy, then how about the social dumping employment practices of Ryanair?
I can't think of a more greedy way to employ people.

I can understand why various governments want to support and protect social responsible companies in times of crises, and not to support companies that don't give a ....

ewt340 wrote:
This doesn't make me want to fly Ryanair at all. Most of their costumers would look for the cheapest prices. Ryanair got EasyJet and Wizzair on its doorstep.

This old school free publicity doesn't work no more, it's all about value. ANd his mouth didn't provide any value into the ticket prices. The internet search is.


It's called image and branding, and some people still think it works.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
ewt340
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:54 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Maybe it's time to start thinking of legislation that protects companies against unions being too greedy as we've seen in many cases around Europe, especially in France. Workers need to realize that if they don't like a certain job, they are more than welcome to quit and go elsewhere.


I'm no fan of too powerful unions, but on the other hand I see unions as a neccesity in order to balance the power between the employer and the employee.

And if you think some unions are greedy, then how about the social dumping employment practices of Ryanair?
I can't think of a more greedy way to employ people.

I can understand why various governments want to support and protect social responsible companies in times of crises, and not to support companies that don't give a ....

ewt340 wrote:
This doesn't make me want to fly Ryanair at all. Most of their costumers would look for the cheapest prices. Ryanair got EasyJet and Wizzair on its doorstep.

This old school free publicity doesn't work no more, it's all about value. ANd his mouth didn't provide any value into the ticket prices. The internet search is.


It's called image and branding, and some people still think it works.


Yeah, with the internet around, these image and branding are long gone. Unless they are banking on corpses buying tickets to go to Ibiza, this ain't gonna work no more.

Either way, he just wanted a piece of those tax money bailout. Hence why he make such a big fuss about the situation. He would have sewn his mouth already if he is on the list to get those cash injection.
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:07 pm

Maybe it's time to start thinking of legislation that protects companies against unions being too greedy as we've seen in many cases around Europe, especially in France. Workers need to realize that if they don't like a certain job, they are more than welcome to quit and go elsewhere.[/quote]

Are you for real? The employee is the one whom needs protection against companies like FR. Companies are already well protected. As for french workers going on strike: first, you can not put all workers inside the same bag. Second, you can not expect workers whom are being mistreated by their employers, remain idle while nothing changes for them.
Flying Together
 
Blerg
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:15 pm

Embajador3 wrote:
Maybe it's time to start thinking of legislation that protects companies against unions being too greedy as we've seen in many cases around Europe, especially in France. Workers need to realize that if they don't like a certain job, they are more than welcome to quit and go elsewhere.


Are you for real? The employee is the one whom needs protection against companies like FR. Companies are already well protected. As for french workers going on strike: first, you can not put all workers inside the same bag. Second, you can not expect workers whom are being mistreated by their employers, remain idle while nothing changes for them.[/quote]

Excuse me but who is forcing the employee to work for companies like Ryanair? No one. We live in a free world and people have the choice who they want to work for. As for the government, all they should care about is that the company isn't breaching some basic rules and that they have paid all of their taxes. Nothing more and nothing less than that. After all, Ryanair is successful today because people don't mind or care for their hiring practices.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:25 pm

And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?
 
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william
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:32 pm

par13del wrote:
Ok, here's another question, the EU has been pushing its carbon trading and have been trying to clamp down on the airlines, the last effort stalled on the international front due to the international convention.
Now carriers all over the world are struggling and the EU can finally put the clamps on their carriers as an example for the world to follow, so whats the problem?
Where are the carbon trading and environmentalist, why are they not lining up to pressure governments to let the airlines fend for themselves or die? Where are those who were so intent on public shaming folks using private aircraft and pax flying all over the place, the media gave them air time before, why not now?


Good point, was thinking the same. The lack of replies to your post is telling.
 
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william
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:32 pm

par13del wrote:
Ok, here's another question, the EU has been pushing its carbon trading and have been trying to clamp down on the airlines, the last effort stalled on the international front due to the international convention.
Now carriers all over the world are struggling and the EU can finally put the clamps on their carriers as an example for the world to follow, so whats the problem?
Where are the carbon trading and environmentalist, why are they not lining up to pressure governments to let the airlines fend for themselves or die? Where are those who were so intent on public shaming folks using private aircraft and pax flying all over the place, the media gave them air time before, why not now?


Good point, was thinking the same. The lack of replies to your post is telling.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:14 pm

Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Ryanair is a highly successful European airline that has reduced the ticket prices and revolutionized air travel in Europe. They do not want help, all they want is a fair competition, which means letting uncompetitive and fat airlines die.

If the only important thing for you is reduced fares and FR only asks for fair competition , wow that`s quiet alot ? If FR was fair from their startup they would not exist to begin with !
Once I was in urgent need to go from Malaga to Frankfurt. I asked different airlines for ticket price and here we go :
Iberia ~ 520 € Malaga-Madrid Frankfurt
Air Berlin ~ 540 € Malaga-Frankurt
Ryanair ~ 500 Malaga-Stansted-Hahn and by bus Frankfurt
and finally Condor exactly 125 € Malaga Frankfurt with a hot meal , a perfect service , no other fees and on the top I could talk in german with them !!!
If you are so fanatic about FR , did you ever work under FR`s conditions ? I will not believe it. Go and hire as a pilot with them. Stay tuned , you have to bring money with you


You do know Condor almost went bankrupt and the only way they survived is because the German government provided them with a half a billion lifeline. I am sure those €125 helped them get there.

Really ? Maybe Thomas Cook flushed Condors profit ?
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:28 pm

william wrote:
par13del wrote:
Ok, here's another question, the EU has been pushing its carbon trading and have been trying to clamp down on the airlines, the last effort stalled on the international front due to the international convention.
Now carriers all over the world are struggling and the EU can finally put the clamps on their carriers as an example for the world to follow, so whats the problem?
Where are the carbon trading and environmentalist, why are they not lining up to pressure governments to let the airlines fend for themselves or die? Where are those who were so intent on public shaming folks using private aircraft and pax flying all over the place, the media gave them air time before, why not now?


Good point, was thinking the same. The lack of replies to your post is telling.

France is already on the way !
From the Air France KLM Master Thread https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22B2EL
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:42 pm

oldJoe wrote:
And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?


If they are breaching basic laws then they will get punished in court and they will have to right a wrong. However their growth in recent years shows us that people will always chose cheap fares in stead of their employees' demands.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:57 pm

Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?


If they are breaching basic laws then they will get punished in court and they will have to right a wrong. However their growth in recent years shows us that people will always chose cheap fares in stead of their employees' demands.


They had already cases on court !
If people chose cheap fares , that does not weed out the fact ,their growth was only possible by taking subsidies , wich are not legal by the way
 
LJ
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:18 pm

Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?


If they are breaching basic laws then they will get punished in court and they will have to right a wrong. However their growth in recent years shows us that people will always chose cheap fares in stead of their employees' demands.


When Ryanair lost its case in The Netherlands, it just pukked out. When it lost again against some pilots, it bullied the pilots who went to court. When one French court decided that Ryanair had to repay some subsidies, it waited until somebody threathened the reposses one of their 737s before they actually paid. Is that the kind of company you want to help out in a crisis?
 
oldJoe
Posts: 178
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:33 pm

LJ wrote:
Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?


If they are breaching basic laws then they will get punished in court and they will have to right a wrong. However their growth in recent years shows us that people will always chose cheap fares in stead of their employees' demands.


When Ryanair lost its case in The Netherlands, it just pukked out. When it lost again against some pilots, it bullied the pilots who went to court. When one French court decided that Ryanair had to repay some subsidies, it waited until somebody threathened the reposses one of their 737s before they actually paid. Is that the kind of company you want to help out in a crisis?


The facts you are providing are reality ! He can`t swallow this for wich reason ever , I don`t know
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:06 pm

It's quite amusing to see the Ryanair shareholders posting here. Some more obvious than others.

And to be fair, MOL has half a point.

Any country considering giving taxpayers money to an airline, should share it out amongst all the airlines.... that pay significant taxes into that countries tax system.

But if you adopt a Flag of Convenience, or register your business in a Tax Haven, then you should be prepared for the downside too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:30 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
It's quite amusing to see the Ryanair shareholders posting here. Some more obvious than others.

And to be fair, MOL has half a point.

Any country considering giving taxpayers money to an airline, should share it out amongst all the airlines.... that pay significant taxes into that countries tax system.

But if you adopt a Flag of Convenience, or register your business in a Tax Haven, then you should be prepared for the downside too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience

And that's the problem with MOL: not only does he want his cake and eat it too, but he wants the baker's wife and the bakery as well.
He is a business genius, but I perceive him as a despicable human being (at least in his role of CEO).
 
trex8
Posts: 5551
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:40 pm

They're like the cruise lines. The model may be very profitable when things work but when it doesn't don't expect any taxpayer to shed a tear when the business model was all about how to minimize payment of taxes in all its various forms to sovereign entities you are asking for a bailout from now.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:03 am

oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?


If they are breaching basic laws then they will get punished in court and they will have to right a wrong. However their growth in recent years shows us that people will always chose cheap fares in stead of their employees' demands.


They had already cases on court !
If people chose cheap fares , that does not weed out the fact ,their growth was only possible by taking subsidies , wich are not legal by the way


So if I got it right, you are claiming FR became what it is today only because of subsidies and not because of very low operating costs and because they initially served markets forgotten by others?
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:06 am

LJ wrote:
Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
And that`s exactly FR`s problem. The are breaching the basic rules all the time. Now MOL has problems when state aid is provided in a crisis , where he take and exist from subsidies even in normal time ? What if tomorrow the EU strictly forbids any illegal subsidy that FR gets ? I guess you know the answer !?


If they are breaching basic laws then they will get punished in court and they will have to right a wrong. However their growth in recent years shows us that people will always chose cheap fares in stead of their employees' demands.


When Ryanair lost its case in The Netherlands, it just pukked out. When it lost again against some pilots, it bullied the pilots who went to court. When one French court decided that Ryanair had to repay some subsidies, it waited until somebody threathened the reposses one of their 737s before they actually paid. Is that the kind of company you want to help out in a crisis?


How exactly are we helping them out? The last time I checked they are not asking for a bailout from any government. They can weather this storm on their own. They are a multinational corporation, biggest airline in Europe, do you really expect them to be nice and cuddly? They are behaving like any other major corporation out there, they are just looking to protect their own interests. Like I wrote earlier, close to 100 million people fly with them each year, most airports want them there, they are obviously not that hated outside this website. Even airports such as Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Madrid found a way to work with them.
 
LJ
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:52 am

Blerg wrote:
How exactly are we helping them out? The last time I checked they are not asking for a bailout from any government. They can weather this storm on their own. They are a multinational corporation, biggest airline in Europe, do you really expect them to be nice and cuddly? They are behaving like any other major corporation out there, they are just looking to protect their own interests. Like I wrote earlier, close to 100 million people fly with them each year, most airports want them there, they are obviously not that hated outside this website. Even airports such as Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Madrid found a way to work with them.


Thus why complain that Ryanair should get some money as well? They're not behaving like any other company. They're behaving like a little child who sees that others get something from their parents while its own parents don't want to give anything (instead his parents aka Irish aviation authorities make life difficult by suggesting to leave the middle seat unsold). Most companies keep quiet because they know that they may have to deal with the respective government in future and have bigger fish to fry.They understand that there are times to shut up, let it go and move on. MOL seems not to be able to do that.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:13 am

LJ wrote:
Blerg wrote:
How exactly are we helping them out? The last time I checked they are not asking for a bailout from any government. They can weather this storm on their own. They are a multinational corporation, biggest airline in Europe, do you really expect them to be nice and cuddly? They are behaving like any other major corporation out there, they are just looking to protect their own interests. Like I wrote earlier, close to 100 million people fly with them each year, most airports want them there, they are obviously not that hated outside this website. Even airports such as Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Madrid found a way to work with them.


Thus why complain that Ryanair should get some money as well? They're not behaving like any other company. They're behaving like a little child who sees that others get something from their parents while its own parents don't want to give anything (instead his parents aka Irish aviation authorities make life difficult by suggesting to leave the middle seat unsold). Most companies keep quiet because they know that they may have to deal with the respective government in future and have bigger fish to fry.They understand that there are times to shut up, let it go and move on. MOL seems not to be able to do that.


Pretty weak argument from your side. They are not crying like a child, they are merely saying that government's should throw money after bad and unsustainable businesses. Same businesses that will burn through this aid and come back to where they are today- asking for more money and more aid.

Ryanair or not, governments should not just bailout their airlines without forcing them and their employees to accept the new realities and reform themselves. Giving them money without fixing the underlying cause that brought them where they are today won't solve their long-term problems.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 219
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:34 am

Blerg wrote:
LJ wrote:
Blerg wrote:
How exactly are we helping them out? The last time I checked they are not asking for a bailout from any government. They can weather this storm on their own. They are a multinational corporation, biggest airline in Europe, do you really expect them to be nice and cuddly? They are behaving like any other major corporation out there, they are just looking to protect their own interests. Like I wrote earlier, close to 100 million people fly with them each year, most airports want them there, they are obviously not that hated outside this website. Even airports such as Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Madrid found a way to work with them.


Thus why complain that Ryanair should get some money as well? They're not behaving like any other company. They're behaving like a little child who sees that others get something from their parents while its own parents don't want to give anything (instead his parents aka Irish aviation authorities make life difficult by suggesting to leave the middle seat unsold). Most companies keep quiet because they know that they may have to deal with the respective government in future and have bigger fish to fry.They understand that there are times to shut up, let it go and move on. MOL seems not to be able to do that.


Pretty weak argument from your side. They are not crying like a child, they are merely saying that government's should throw money after bad and unsustainable businesses. Same businesses that will burn through this aid and come back to where they are today- asking for more money and more aid.

Ryanair or not, governments should not just bailout their airlines without forcing them and their employees to accept the new realities and reform themselves. Giving them money without fixing the underlying cause that brought them where they are today won't solve their long-term problems.


The only underlying cause for many airlines right now is a worldwide pandemic.
 
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LTU1011
Posts: 34
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:45 am

The responses in favor of this imho ruthless (is that really enviable/admirable?) loudmouth and his more than questionable business practices/employee treatment, plus the judicial aftermath layed out so eloquently by other posters above, is a stark reminder why it has been a sound decision to have never set foot aboard one of his planes, and never going to do so in the future...
If a man knows not to which port he sails, no wind is favorable. - Seneca
 
Cassi
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:16 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Ty134A wrote:
And while Hungary alwasy is protective, why sould Austria welcome them here?


It's amazing, really. As an EU member, you have to treat all other EU companies equally, it is as simple as that.

Wizzair has no business relationship with the Hungarian goverment, it is mostly owned by US and UK-based equity funds. The only thing they care about is their money, and they surely ignore the "holy traditions" of the Austrian unions if it is legally possible. Any rescue package for OS must be fully compliant with the EU competition regulations or it will be revoked in no time.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:15 pm

LJ wrote:
Blerg wrote:
How exactly are we helping them out? The last time I checked they are not asking for a bailout from any government. They can weather this storm on their own. They are a multinational corporation, biggest airline in Europe, do you really expect them to be nice and cuddly? They are behaving like any other major corporation out there, they are just looking to protect their own interests. Like I wrote earlier, close to 100 million people fly with them each year, most airports want them there, they are obviously not that hated outside this website. Even airports such as Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Madrid found a way to work with them.


Thus why complain that Ryanair should get some money as well? They're not behaving like any other company. They're behaving like a little child who sees that others get something from their parents while its own parents don't want to give anything (instead his parents aka Irish aviation authorities make life difficult by suggesting to leave the middle seat unsold). Most companies keep quiet because they know that they may have to deal with the respective government in future and have bigger fish to fry.They understand that there are times to shut up, let it go and move on. MOL seems not to be able to do that.


Lufthansa is threatening their own government that they will declare insovency: Lufthansa droht mit Insolvenz.

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/ ... 46036.html

So it's not exactly true that most companies keep quiet when the biggest airline group in Europe is going around making noise all over the place and dictating governments of different countries what they want.

Who's behaving like a little child again?
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