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GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed May 06, 2020 6:40 am

Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
The thread is about FR complaining about OS bailout.

Austria announced 15 billion bailout funds for troubled companies as the situation is unprecedented, OS is one of the largest employers in land and played a vital role in the wider economy. Naive to think they won't be part of it, they submitted an application about 767 million last Tuesday, but government demands LH concessions. We haven't heard about MOL since, maybe he will sue them or maybe he will back down, let's see.

Some compared different governments bailout programs, but let's not forget that Austria and Germany are both sovereign states, each has its own tax regime and labour system. When it comes to what to do with LH, Berlin probably weighs in more about Adidas' 3.3 billion bailout rather than considering a foreign company's treatment or an outcast who comes and goes when regional subsidy initiatives suit them. When Austria closed border to Germany, you'd get a sense that EU is not US, bailouts are not industry focused but nationality based, it's just the reality.

Easyjet just got £600m loan from UK after being shoved away by Swiss government don't they, maybe FR should be more open about talking to Dublin? So far they insisted they could weather through (like Wizz and BA) but what if demand doesn't come back for a few years as VS's analysis?


You can literally read the name of the thread, it's not about Austria as you claim, it's about subsidies provided by various (almost all) EU nations to their national carriers.

You are correct, my bad. The original Irish Times report didn’t even mention OS, they only talked about AF/KL/LH/AZ. I did wonder why MOL didn’t MOL the bailouts at FR’s top markets. The thread was misleading from the very beginning as it started by hinting Lauda/FR should be entitled to AUA/LH similar treatment (Or maybe wrong article was quoted here because it's really not relevant).

Good luck to MOL then, he will need it, no other airline has ever lost as many times as Ryanair in the history of ECJ.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed May 06, 2020 6:58 am

GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
The thread is about FR complaining about OS bailout.

Austria announced 15 billion bailout funds for troubled companies as the situation is unprecedented, OS is one of the largest employers in land and played a vital role in the wider economy. Naive to think they won't be part of it, they submitted an application about 767 million last Tuesday, but government demands LH concessions. We haven't heard about MOL since, maybe he will sue them or maybe he will back down, let's see.

Some compared different governments bailout programs, but let's not forget that Austria and Germany are both sovereign states, each has its own tax regime and labour system. When it comes to what to do with LH, Berlin probably weighs in more about Adidas' 3.3 billion bailout rather than considering a foreign company's treatment or an outcast who comes and goes when regional subsidy initiatives suit them. When Austria closed border to Germany, you'd get a sense that EU is not US, bailouts are not industry focused but nationality based, it's just the reality.

Easyjet just got £600m loan from UK after being shoved away by Swiss government don't they, maybe FR should be more open about talking to Dublin? So far they insisted they could weather through (like Wizz and BA) but what if demand doesn't come back for a few years as VS's analysis?


You can literally read the name of the thread, it's not about Austria as you claim, it's about subsidies provided by various (almost all) EU nations to their national carriers.

You are correct, my bad. The original Irish Times report didn’t even mention OS, they only talked about AF/KL/LH/AZ. I did wonder why MOL didn’t MOL the bailouts at FR’s top markets. The thread was misleading from the very beginning as it started by hinting Lauda/FR should be entitled to AUA/LH similar treatment (Or maybe wrong article was quoted here because it's really not relevant).

Good luck to MOL then, he will need it, no other airline has ever lost as many times as Ryanair in the history of ECJ.


Lauda/Austrian Airlines were mentioned because Austria is part of the EU. It was just one of the things he spoke against.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed May 06, 2020 1:53 pm

PSO routes around Europe:
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ai ... ket/pso_en
Many carriers including Ryanair have taken up these routes, provided a public service and been compensated accordingly.
The Carrier doesn't submit the PSO route for approval. The local Government does that so there can be no arm twisting by the carrier.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed May 06, 2020 3:20 pm

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-sweden-legal-action/

Ryanair are making it clear that if Governments exclude them from support that they will have to justify themselves in Court.
They don't want the money but they don't want to be put at a disadvantage if other airlines are given it.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed May 06, 2020 5:06 pm

leghorn wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-sweden-legal-action/

Ryanair are making it clear that if Governments exclude them from support that they will have to justify themselves in Court.
They don't want the money but they don't want to be put at a disadvantage if other airlines are given it.


Very interesting they pick up Sweden to sue, Swedish €455 million bailout was approved by EC on 11 April, the package of loan guarantees is open to any airline that has held a licence to operate in Swedish airspace as of 1 January. There are about 20 companies will be eligible for the money. SAS will get roughly €137 million. https://www.euractiv.com/section/aviati ... t-from-eu/

Also interesting FR didn't take actions about Danish €137 million SAS bailout, or the Easyjet/UK one.
 
leghorn
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed May 06, 2020 9:31 pm

When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
Posts: 4459
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu May 07, 2020 4:32 am

Seems like this crisis in Lufthansa is affecting the coalition partners in Berlin. Apparently CDU is willing to give in to LH's demands but the Socialists are still not budging on gaining more control over Lufthansa. Let's see what becomes of this in the end and how much longer Lufthansa can last without aid, time is not their friend right now.

https://www.airliners.de/koalition-mitb ... ansa/55254
 
RvA
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu May 07, 2020 12:28 pm

Blerg wrote:
Seems like this crisis in Lufthansa is affecting the coalition partners in Berlin. Apparently CDU is willing to give in to LH's demands but the Socialists are still not budging on gaining more control over Lufthansa. Let's see what becomes of this in the end and how much longer Lufthansa can last without aid, time is not their friend right now.

https://www.airliners.de/koalition-mitb ... ansa/55254


Their cash reserves before going into the crisis and going by the €1M an hour loss they mentioned they should actually be able to survive on that alone until almost the end of the year.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu May 07, 2020 8:59 pm

leghorn wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-sweden-legal-action/

Ryanair are making it clear that if Governments exclude them from support that they will have to justify themselves in Court.
They don't want the money but they don't want to be put at a disadvantage if other airlines are given it.


If they don`t want the money how any government can exclude FR from support ?
FR put other airlines ( illegal ) in a disatvantage more than once in the past, tell me what MOL is claiming ?
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 11:54 am

You are really tying yourself up in knots trying to make yourself believe that Ryanair and other LCCs are as parasitical as the Legacy operators who depend on direct cash infusions and tilting the market environment in their favour through their respective Governments
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1959
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 2:08 pm

leghorn wrote:
You are really tying yourself up in knots trying to make yourself believe that Ryanair and other LCCs are as parasitical as the Legacy operators who depend on direct cash infusions and tilting the market environment in their favour through their respective Governments

And you are really tying yourself in knots trying to defend Ryanair and MOL actions "in good time" that he is paying for now.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 2:14 pm

I'm not defending their actions. As I said before they will push every law and established practice to the limit except for safety.
Ryanair isn't receiving exceptional poor treatment. There are many smaller carriers operating on routes in the DACH region which will go out of business due to Lufthansa getting preferential support...They'd be competing with Lufthansa's smaller aircraft for the most part on routes which don't suit a Ryanair 737.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 2:51 pm

oldJoe wrote:
leghorn wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-sweden-legal-action/

Ryanair are making it clear that if Governments exclude them from support that they will have to justify themselves in Court.
They don't want the money but they don't want to be put at a disadvantage if other airlines are given it.


If they don`t want the money how any government can exclude FR from support ?
FR put other airlines ( illegal ) in a disatvantage more than once in the past, tell me what MOL is claiming ?


What 'illegal' disadvantages would they be, that other carriers don't use when it suits? Not defending them, per sé, but they are a business as all airlines are and stated often enough on this forum, so why when other carriers do things is it described here as 'genius', but when it comes to Ryanair doing the same many in here fashionably start condemning. Indeed, following your argument why was BA originally not claiming support in UK solely in order to put VS out of business
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 2:54 pm

leghorn wrote:
I'm not defending their actions. As I said before they will push every law and established practice to the limit except for safety.
Ryanair isn't receiving exceptional poor treatment. There are many smaller carriers operating on routes in the DACH region which will go out of business due to Lufthansa getting preferential support...They'd be competing with Lufthansa's smaller aircraft for the most part on routes which don't suit a Ryanair 737.


I am very interested on examples of these carriers.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 2:59 pm

First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB. Where is the love for Aer Lingus? Where is the free money for them. Do they not deserve a level playing surface or do they deserve nothing because they don't pay German labour taxes.
It is either a common open fair market or it isn't. Which is it.
 
RvA
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 3:30 pm

leghorn wrote:
First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB.


What does this mean? Not sure I understand the LHR reference here.
Btw, what free money are we talking about has LH been given free money?
 
Olddog
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 3:42 pm

Fr has a long track record with justice in France. They can threaten all they want, being successful is an other story .
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 3:51 pm

leghorn wrote:
First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB. Where is the love for Aer Lingus? Where is the free money for them. Do they not deserve a level playing surface or do they deserve nothing because they don't pay German labour taxes.
It is either a common open fair market or it isn't. Which is it.



Lufthansa = German = Support from German Gov.
Aer Lingus = Irish = Support from Irish Gov.

Why should Germany support an Irish company? As per you thinking, Germany should also support the U.S. tech companies who moved their European HQ to Ireland so they have to pay the smallest percentage of taxes in Europe.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 4:59 pm

Olddog wrote:
Fr has a long track record with justice in France. They can threaten all they want, being successful is an other story .


He can`t be succesful ! By the way , a condition for AF to get State aid is to reduce local flying by ~ 50 % for a very good reason !
So will MOL threaten the Coronavirus at the WTO for illegal entry into Europe ?
 
oldJoe
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 5:41 pm

leghorn wrote:
I'm not defending their actions. As I said before they will push every law and established practice to the limit except for safety.
Ryanair isn't receiving exceptional poor treatment. There are many smaller carriers operating on routes in the DACH region which will go out of business due to Lufthansa getting preferential support...They'd be competing with Lufthansa's smaller aircraft for the most part on routes which don't suit a Ryanair 737.


Wich small ( many ) airlines operate IN DACH ? Many I estimate more than say three or much more. Name some please !
 
oldJoe
Posts: 362
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 7:20 pm

leghorn wrote:
First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB. Where is the love for Aer Lingus? Where is the free money for them. Do they not deserve a level playing surface or do they deserve nothing because they don't pay German labour taxes.
It is either a common open fair market or it isn't. Which is it.


Aer Lingus is just out of a sudden your arguement ? In post #287 and #289 you claim they are the reason you can`t travel cheap like you want . By the way, any airline in the world deserve level playing, the question is when Raynair is ready to admit to ??? Wich means clearly to provide solid contracts, get no subsidy at any ( Village ) airport and respect the law. ( to go over the borders does not mean you respect the laws when you get caught )
Furthermore does the German government paid out any Cent up today ? No !!! All upon this second is simply speculation. Can be or not ! And if Ryanair needs some aid, I don`t know where they should ask for ? Ireland or Malta Austria or where else ??? If Ireland don`t want to help them in bad times it`s simply your problem
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 8:59 pm

fraT wrote:
leghorn wrote:
First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB. Where is the love for Aer Lingus? Where is the free money for them. Do they not deserve a level playing surface or do they deserve nothing because they don't pay German labour taxes.
It is either a common open fair market or it isn't. Which is it.



Lufthansa = German = Support from German Gov.
Aer Lingus = Irish = Support from Irish Gov.

Why should Germany support an Irish company? As per you thinking, Germany should also support the U.S. tech companies who moved their European HQ to Ireland so they have to pay the smallest percentage of taxes in Europe.

That is not how it works. If Germany supports a German company/industry to the detriment of other European competitors who happen not to be German then they are undermining fair competition in the European Union and off to the Courts it goes.
Protectionism isn't allowed.
Aer Lingus isn't owned by an Irish company.
Last edited by leghorn on Fri May 08, 2020 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 9:00 pm

RvA wrote:
leghorn wrote:
First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB.


What does this mean? Not sure I understand the LHR reference here.
Btw, what free money are we talking about has LH been given free money?

Should have been LH not LHR.
 
RvA
Posts: 450
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 08, 2020 9:20 pm

leghorn wrote:
RvA wrote:
leghorn wrote:
First example I can think of straight off the top of my head is Aer Lingus flying FRA-DUB with no FRA employees but very much a competitor to LHR on FRA-DUB.


What does this mean? Not sure I understand the LHR reference here.
Btw, what free money are we talking about has LH been given free money?

Should have been LH not LHR.


Thanks get it now. What about the free money though I’m keen to learn more about this.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Sat May 09, 2020 10:21 am

If you read the German news you'll see they are working on this at the moment setting SPD against CDU/CSU and the Greens will give them anything if they pledge to reduce their CO2 emmissions by 50%(not sure how they'll achieve that using even the latest planes); https://kurier.at/wirtschaft/gruene-for ... /400836902

So Lufthansa like a dose of herpes you can't shake off will survive and Ryanair like a cockroach will always survive squeezing out the likes of Aer Lingus on a route like FRA-DUB and in to oblivion.
 
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Terrier79
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 6:59 am

Ryanair is filing a lawsuit against the state aids for Air France.

"The Irish airline said Monday it filed a lawsuit at the European Union’s General Court seeking to topple the EU’s approval for a program delaying aviation tax payments for companies with a French license. The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere."

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... s-bailouts
 
mig17
Posts: 331
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 7:55 am

Terrier79 wrote:
Ryanair is filing a lawsuit against the state aids for Air France.

"The Irish airline said Monday it filed a lawsuit at the European Union’s General Court seeking to topple the EU’s approval for a program delaying aviation tax payments for companies with a French license. The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere."

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... s-bailouts

It is amusing to say the least when Ryanair which benefits all years long from the advantageous tax policy of Ireland find it illegal for another country to modify it's tax policy.

"The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere." => that can also be read : Ryanair and easy Jet Olc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elswhere do not pay taxes in France … Or maybe Ryanair want to become a French entity???

I have said it in another thread, Schengen or the Eurozone have an harmonisation problem. But Ryanair pointing out the system they keep getting around in their business is comical ...
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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Terrier79
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 8:29 am

mig17 wrote:
It is amusing to say the least when Ryanair which benefits all years long from the advantageous tax policy of Ireland find it illegal for another country to modify it's tax policy.

"The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere." => that can also be read : Ryanair and easy Jet Olc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elswhere do not pay taxes in France … Or maybe Ryanair want to become a French entity???

I have said it in another thread, Schengen or the Eurozone have an harmonisation problem. But Ryanair pointing out the system they keep getting around in their business is comical ...


Totally agree. However, it is their good right to have this clarified by a court and it will be interesting to see how the court will rule.
 
LJ
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 9:01 am

mig17 wrote:
"The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere." => that can also be read : Ryanair and easy Jet Olc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elswhere do not pay taxes in France … Or maybe Ryanair want to become a French entity???..


This is exactly what you see in France. They tie state support to whether the business in in France. They do it in the automotive market, they do it now in aviation as well. Moreover, you see this logic in more countries. Why support companies who either don't (or barely) pay taxes in the respective country. To be honest, one can make a good case for it. Companies paid taxes and are now getting something back in return.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 9:26 am

LJ wrote:
This is exactly what you see in France. They tie state support to whether the business in in France. They do it in the automotive market, they do it now in aviation as well. Moreover, you see this logic in more countries. Why support companies who either don't (or barely) pay taxes in the respective country. To be honest, one can make a good case for it. Companies paid taxes and are now getting something back in return.

You are making a case for protectionism. Wiser heads than yours have decided that that is counter-productive.
 
mig17
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 11:36 am

leghorn wrote:
LJ wrote:
This is exactly what you see in France. They tie state support to whether the business in in France. They do it in the automotive market, they do it now in aviation as well. Moreover, you see this logic in more countries. Why support companies who either don't (or barely) pay taxes in the respective country. To be honest, one can make a good case for it. Companies paid taxes and are now getting something back in return.

You are making a case for protectionism. Wiser heads than yours have decided that that is counter-productive.

It is true in a homogeneous market but that is highly debatable in a world where standards are not the same everywhere.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
LJ
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 12:09 pm

leghorn wrote:
LJ wrote:
This is exactly what you see in France. They tie state support to whether the business in in France. They do it in the automotive market, they do it now in aviation as well. Moreover, you see this logic in more countries. Why support companies who either don't (or barely) pay taxes in the respective country. To be honest, one can make a good case for it. Companies paid taxes and are now getting something back in return.

You are making a case for protectionism. Wiser heads than yours have decided that that is counter-productive.


I make the case which the French (but also to some extent the Swiss and other) government is making. I don't necessarily think it's the best strategy. However, I get the feeling that the French view is very popular amongst its citizens and abroad (similar rethoretic is used in other EU countries). As such it's irrelevant if it's counter-productive or not, it gets them re-elected and that's usually enough for politicians. One of the first lessons I received when I started working in my industry was that not everybody bases its action(s) on logic and rational.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 12:32 pm

If the guiding principles of the E.U. are not upheld then the smaller states might as well not be in the E.U. and they will one by one fall away and fall under the influence of external actors who will endanger the long term prospects of the founding member economically and otherwise.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1959
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue May 12, 2020 3:26 pm

mig17 wrote:
Terrier79 wrote:
Ryanair is filing a lawsuit against the state aids for Air France.

"The Irish airline said Monday it filed a lawsuit at the European Union’s General Court seeking to topple the EU’s approval for a program delaying aviation tax payments for companies with a French license. The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere."

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... s-bailouts

It is amusing to say the least when Ryanair which benefits all years long from the advantageous tax policy of Ireland find it illegal for another country to modify it's tax policy.

"The tax break will mostly benefit Air France and excludes Ryanair and easyJet Plc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elsewhere." => that can also be read : Ryanair and easy Jet Olc, which fly many routes from French airports but are based elswhere do not pay taxes in France … Or maybe Ryanair want to become a French entity???

I have said it in another thread, Schengen or the Eurozone have an harmonisation problem. But Ryanair pointing out the system they keep getting around in their business is comical ...

If this sticks, watch for Ryanair to no longer receive any new incentives; MOL is playing with fire and will end up getting badly burned.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu May 14, 2020 12:14 pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.4252755

Nothing especially new here. State Aid accessible to all is OK.
It can easily afford to bring each one of these illegal state support measures to E.U. Courts.
The French state aid of only giving forbearance w.r.t. tax owed by French Airlines only seems especially illegal.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Thu May 14, 2020 10:26 pm

Interesting statements from MOL.

'Ryanair confirmed that it favoured EU government supports for airlines that are transparent and available to all carriers, and thus are not state aid. This includes payroll support schemes and UK government loans.' (FR must be one of the biggest beneficiaries of UK furlough given their huge UK bases, and yes they have to be based in UK to qualify the scheme, clearly they haven't got a problem with it, even though airlines like KLM/LH who do loads UK flying from abroad base don't qualify)

Laudamotion "would not apply for or receive “any of the €800 million Austrian state aid subsidy” being granted to Austrian Airlines. This is illegal state aid which Ryanair and Laudamotion will oppose,” a statement said. (funny the patronising tone they adopted as if they were not THE airline who was ruled against for receiving illegal state aid by ECJ)

- It sounds like they would support any 'legal' subsidy when they are on the receiving end (UK), and oppose all 'illegal' state aid when they don't get anything (Sweden), regardless if they are willing to take it or not given the conditions (Ö). Some normal people eh. Do they get lawyer discount when they sue so many governments at the same time?
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 15, 2020 8:02 am

GLANKG wrote:
Interesting statements from MOL.

'Ryanair confirmed that it favoured EU government supports for airlines that are transparent and available to all carriers, and thus are not state aid. This includes payroll support schemes and UK government loans.' (FR must be one of the biggest beneficiaries of UK furlough given their huge UK bases, and yes they have to be based in UK to qualify the scheme, clearly they haven't got a problem with it, even though airlines like KLM/LH who do loads UK flying from abroad base don't qualify)

Laudamotion "would not apply for or receive “any of the €800 million Austrian state aid subsidy” being granted to Austrian Airlines. This is illegal state aid which Ryanair and Laudamotion will oppose,” a statement said. (funny the patronising tone they adopted as if they were not THE airline who was ruled against for receiving illegal state aid by ECJ)

- It sounds like they would support any 'legal' subsidy when they are on the receiving end (UK), and oppose all 'illegal' state aid when they don't get anything (Sweden), regardless if they are willing to take it or not given the conditions (Ö). Some normal people eh. Do they get lawyer discount when they sue so many governments at the same time?


No lawyer discounts but they get incredible amount of PR which boosts their brand image and helps them sell even more tickets.Each time some newspaper reports on them they include their statement which always contains the same message that they are a cheap and affordable carrier in a sea of overpriced, unsustainable carriers.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 15, 2020 12:11 pm

I'm not seeing any of this "free money" floating around that MOL keeps talking about. Example in the interview with Austrian PM Kurz:
Der Staat als Retter erhält derzeit eine zentrale Rolle. Sie selbst stecken mit der Lufthansa in Gesprächen über eine Rettung der Austrian Airlines. Laufen wir in eine Staatswirtschaft?
Ich glaube, das wäre der absolut falsche Weg. Wir haben es mit einer Gesundheitskrise zu tun. In deren Verlauf wird einiges sichtbar, zum Beispiel, dass Regionalität etwas sehr Positives ist. Ebenso ein Grad an Autarkie bei landwirtschaftlichen Produkten und der Versorgung von anderen Grundbedürfnissen. Wir sehen, dass es gut ist, wenn Industrien in der Lage sind, schnell zu adaptieren und etwa Schutzmasken oder Beatmungsgeräte herzustellen. Daraus können wir Lehren ziehen. Auf einmal aber zu glauben, dass der Staat besser in der Lage ist, ein Unternehmen wie eine Fluglinie zu führen als die Manager dort, würde ich für einen gefährlichen Ansatz erachten.

Staatsbeteiligungen im Zuge der Krise sollten also zeitlich stark begrenzt sein?
Genau. Es ist wichtig zu unterscheiden zwischen notwendigen Finanzspritzen und Unterstützungsmaßnahmen in der Zeit der Krise einerseits sowie der Frage, ob der Staat ein guter Unternehmer ist.

Wann, glauben Sie, finden Sie bei der Austrian Airlines zu einer Einigung?
Wir sind in guten Gesprächen mit der Lufthansa. Es lässt sich noch nicht sagen, ob es hier noch zu einer Einigung kommt. Aber beide Seiten bemühen sich.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/in ... TmwrTD-ap3
"One should not believe that the government is better at running a company than their own managers. Nationalization is the wrong path. Financial support must be limited to times of crisis with clear limits on duration." He also points out that support should be in form of (repayable) loans not cash.
 
mig17
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 15, 2020 12:44 pm

Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Interesting statements from MOL.

'Ryanair confirmed that it favoured EU government supports for airlines that are transparent and available to all carriers, and thus are not state aid. This includes payroll support schemes and UK government loans.' (FR must be one of the biggest beneficiaries of UK furlough given their huge UK bases, and yes they have to be based in UK to qualify the scheme, clearly they haven't got a problem with it, even though airlines like KLM/LH who do loads UK flying from abroad base don't qualify)

Laudamotion "would not apply for or receive “any of the €800 million Austrian state aid subsidy” being granted to Austrian Airlines. This is illegal state aid which Ryanair and Laudamotion will oppose,” a statement said. (funny the patronising tone they adopted as if they were not THE airline who was ruled against for receiving illegal state aid by ECJ)

- It sounds like they would support any 'legal' subsidy when they are on the receiving end (UK), and oppose all 'illegal' state aid when they don't get anything (Sweden), regardless if they are willing to take it or not given the conditions (Ö). Some normal people eh. Do they get lawyer discount when they sue so many governments at the same time?


No lawyer discounts but they get incredible amount of PR which boosts their brand image and helps them sell even more tickets.Each time some newspaper reports on them they include their statement which always contains the same message that they are a cheap and affordable carrier in a sea of overpriced, unsustainable carriers.

Oh, they get PR yes, but good PR? More and more often, when you hear about Ryanair, it is because they are not playing by the rules, not treating customers or staff well, playing dumping, threatening to abandonne some routes if they dont get what they want, … Ryanair is the LCC I will never fly, ever!
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 15, 2020 1:13 pm

mig17 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Interesting statements from MOL.

'Ryanair confirmed that it favoured EU government supports for airlines that are transparent and available to all carriers, and thus are not state aid. This includes payroll support schemes and UK government loans.' (FR must be one of the biggest beneficiaries of UK furlough given their huge UK bases, and yes they have to be based in UK to qualify the scheme, clearly they haven't got a problem with it, even though airlines like KLM/LH who do loads UK flying from abroad base don't qualify)

Laudamotion "would not apply for or receive “any of the €800 million Austrian state aid subsidy” being granted to Austrian Airlines. This is illegal state aid which Ryanair and Laudamotion will oppose,” a statement said. (funny the patronising tone they adopted as if they were not THE airline who was ruled against for receiving illegal state aid by ECJ)

- It sounds like they would support any 'legal' subsidy when they are on the receiving end (UK), and oppose all 'illegal' state aid when they don't get anything (Sweden), regardless if they are willing to take it or not given the conditions (Ö). Some normal people eh. Do they get lawyer discount when they sue so many governments at the same time?


No lawyer discounts but they get incredible amount of PR which boosts their brand image and helps them sell even more tickets.Each time some newspaper reports on them they include their statement which always contains the same message that they are a cheap and affordable carrier in a sea of overpriced, unsustainable carriers.

Oh, they get PR yes, but good PR? More and more often, when you hear about Ryanair, it is because they are not playing by the rules, not treating customers or staff well, playing dumping, threatening to abandonne some routes if they dont get what they want, … Ryanair is the LCC I will never fly, ever!


From what I know they are the number one airline in Europe. Most people obviously don't care.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Fri May 22, 2020 9:07 am

Lauda base at Vienna closing:
https://wien.orf.at/stories/3049817/
 
kayik
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:32 pm

Ryanair decided to dance with every bear around
https://www.france24.com/en/20200602-fr ... -ultimatum
 
Blerg
Topic Author
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Ryanair Threatens EU Over State Aid to Airlines

Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:33 am

kayik wrote:
Ryanair decided to dance with every bear around
https://www.france24.com/en/20200602-fr ... -ultimatum


Bit of a misleading title, it's not France that's denouncing them but rather two ministers and a union leader. When I read the text I thought a court made a ruling or a government issued a statement or took action against Ryanair.
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