Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1286
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:55 am

The top of KLM takes into account that the current crisis may mean the end of the marriage with Air France. Crucial for the continued existence of the French-Dutch aviation combination is whether Air France succeeds in drastically reducing costs. At the head office in Amstelveen, people are not convinced of the French willingness to do so, especially after the French state had financially come to the aid of the company on Friday with a loan of € 7 billion.

Translated from a Dutch article in a well respected financial newspaper: https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1342878/klm-ho ... air-france

It was already notable how both governments gave support to their own part of the company while they are equal shareholders in the AFKL holding. Tied to the Dutch support is that KL can no longer pay dividends to the holding until its payed back so KL can no longer prop up AF’s losses for a long time to come.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:04 am

If I were KLM, I'd want out of that marriage. Just saying.
 
jsfr
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:36 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:05 am

Dutch non-professional wishful thinking. Again... and again.....
 
Blerg
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:06 am

Can KL make it on their own or would they look for a new marriage candidate?
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 1040
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:11 am

Blerg wrote:
Can KL make it on their own or would they look for a new marriage candidate?


IAG would jump at the chance for KLM to join the group.

Willie Walsh has always said BA should have merged with KLM and the deal would not have fallen through on his watch.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1618
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:14 am

While I can understand the Dutch in some way it did not work out alone before. So would they want to unite with say BA or LH? They would have the same conflicts all over again. So I guess not. They would need to find a way to survive alone.
Last edited by Noshow on Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7357
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:15 am

Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:07 pm

But why would IAG be a nice fit for them? Aren't LHR and AMS a bit too close to each other?

If that happens then SkyTeam would become quite weak in western Europe. Air France would be left alone in north-western Europe. Besides them there would be rotting Alitalia whose membership is not certain and then a few smaller carriers such as Tarom and CSA. Maybe it's time for SkyTeam to court another airline like Turkish Airlines or LOT?
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:13 pm

Blerg wrote:
But why would IAG be a nice fit for them? Aren't LHR and AMS a bit too close to each other?


AMS is only slight closer to LHR than it is to CDG, plus unlike CDG there's a bit of water separating the Netherlands and the UK. For comparison, go a bit further and you've got the same distance between LHR and DUB.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:15 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Blerg wrote:
But why would IAG be a nice fit for them? Aren't LHR and AMS a bit too close to each other?


AMS is only slight closer to LHR than it is to CDG, plus unlike CDG there's a bit of water separating the Netherlands and the UK. For comparison, go a bit further and you've got the same distance between LHR and DUB.


True but I meant in terms of transfer passengers. Unless KL thinks that due to capacity restraints BA at LHR is more focused on point to point travel. Air France on the other hand has become rather aggressive in recent times.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3926
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:19 pm

Blerg wrote:
But why would IAG be a nice fit for them? Aren't LHR and AMS a bit too close to each other?
With Brexit that might be less of an issue then it would have been a year ago.

I am not really sure what would be the best course of action. On the one hand, AF is a basket case where across the company there seems little interest in change. So I definately can understand why KL staff is getting tired of AF not living up to agreements on cost cutting and efficiency increases.

But I am not sure either LH or BA would give KL the same level of freedom AF/KL group has given them.
Attamottamotta!
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:28 pm

Slightly off topic, but touching on the apparent French willingness to do so.
As a seasoned non-rev traveller, the difference in flying KL to AF is absolutely astounding. KL staff always try and bend over backwards to help you out, to get you where toU need to go, whereas AF staff are the complete opposite, and really really make it known that they are doing you a favour.
Such a joy to fly KL,,, not so with AF.
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1788
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:33 pm

Noshow wrote:
While I can understand the Dutch in some way it did not work out alone before. So would they want to unite with say BA or LH? They would have the same conflicts all over again. So I guess not. They would need to find a way to survive alone.


Times have changed since the AF/KL marriage. At the time, it seemed a good idea. AF was profitable, and KL couldn't survive alone, they would be outcompeted. For the past years however, AF couldn't get their act together. KLM personnel made sacrifices to reduce cost and increase profitability, AF didn't, and the attempt a few years earlier by AF group to control KL's cash reserves made KLM suspicious. They believed it was an attempt fo fill the French holes with money from the Dutch side.

Personally I believe Ben Smith's rather permissive stand towards the French unions and his attempts to personally control KLM didn't go well at KL headquarters. And now, there is financial aid from the Dutch government, but with all kinds of conditions. But I don't know if these kind of conditions were also made by the French government.

I don't think the LH group is an option for KLM if they break up with AF. The way LH favours its own airline, keeping SN, Austrian and to a lesser extent Swiss very limited in their possibilities, KL would find themselves in the same situation as with AF there.

IAG however, may be a different story. Before AF, KL management wanted to tie up with BA, with the latter didn't want to keep the KLM brand which was unacceptable to the Dutch. Current IAG management sees things differently now IMO. And I wouldn't be surprised if IAG will go far to get back at DL and snatch KL away from their JV.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:36 pm

Will IAG buy KL later?
If become part of IAG then AMS could be the primary gateway to UK and LHR could have more long-haul flight
 
Ciel
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:00 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:56 pm

Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:57 pm

KLM can get out of the holding and keep a deep cooperation wih AF. Just like they do with Delta.

Why would going out of the holding mean that they would not work together with AF anymore? And that they should look at LH or BA.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:07 pm

Ciel wrote:
Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.

And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1981
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:09 pm

Would a theoretical takeover of KL by IAG be complicated by IAG's ownership if EI as well as KL? KL often made the argument that AMS was LHR's third airport as well as the fact it has so much feed from the UK regions. Whilst having no where near the same amount of longhaul traffic as AMS, DUB's heavy transatlantic focus with its own feed from the UK regions means that you'd have three transatlantic gateways in close proximity, two of which would be be heavily reliant on feed.

It would have to remembered as well that an IAG takeover of KL would require a major unpicking of the relationship with DL. Not impossible but a challenge at the best of times let alone in a post global lockdown environment.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
Blerg
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:12 pm

So what did KL do since the merger to transform itself into a profitable and successful airline? Why were they losing so much money before?
 
NLINK
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:20 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:17 pm

I see some of these current tie-ups coming apart longterm. I kinda understand the rumbling for example of Austria or Swiss citizens upset about giving Germany money to help bail out a Airline that operates in the respective country. I think we will see some of these countries take back control of it's respective airlines long term. I think with the EU it seems like you don't get the cost savings of a merger as the parent company is still operating each as total separate companies instead of example Lufthansa having a hub in FRA,MUC,ZRH,BRU,and VIE like you would in the US because they are countries and not states.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:19 pm

Jetty wrote:
The top of KLM takes into account that the current crisis may mean the end of the marriage with Air France. Crucial for the continued existence of the French-Dutch aviation combination is whether Air France succeeds in drastically reducing costs. At the head office in Amstelveen, people are not convinced of the French willingness to do so, especially after the French state had financially come to the aid of the company on Friday with a loan of € 7 billion.

Translated from a Dutch article in a well respected financial newspaper: https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1342878/klm-ho ... air-france

It was already notable how both governments gave support to their own part of the company while they are equal shareholders in the AFKL holding. Tied to the Dutch support is that KL can no longer pay dividends to the holding until its payed back so KL can no longer prop up AF’s losses for a long time to come.


The "Financieel Dagbald" is close tied to "de Telegraaf", not the best newspaper in The Netherlands and well-known for their bias against AirFrance.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1286
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:23 pm

marcelh wrote:
Jetty wrote:
The top of KLM takes into account that the current crisis may mean the end of the marriage with Air France. Crucial for the continued existence of the French-Dutch aviation combination is whether Air France succeeds in drastically reducing costs. At the head office in Amstelveen, people are not convinced of the French willingness to do so, especially after the French state had financially come to the aid of the company on Friday with a loan of € 7 billion.

Translated from a Dutch article in a well respected financial newspaper: https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1342878/klm-ho ... air-france

It was already notable how both governments gave support to their own part of the company while they are equal shareholders in the AFKL holding. Tied to the Dutch support is that KL can no longer pay dividends to the holding until its payed back so KL can no longer prop up AF’s losses for a long time to come.


The "Financieel Dagbald" is close tied to "de Telegraaf", not the best newspaper in The Netherlands and well-known for their bias against AirFrance.

Which ties exactly? Ownership and partnership wise there are none.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 996
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:24 pm

PM wrote:
Ciel wrote:
Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.

And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?

I think the point was that legacy EU airlines would basically be a duopoly, instead of something closer to a "triopoly" like there is now.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:26 pm

Blerg wrote:
So what did KL do since the merger to transform itself into a profitable and successful airline? Why were they losing so much money before?


KLM wasn't big enough to compete the powerhouses of BA, AF and LH. After a failed attempt to merge with BA (BA would have axed the name KLM), AirFrance was the best option.
 
Ciel
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:00 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:31 pm

PM wrote:
Ciel wrote:
Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.

And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?


My point is that with a possible acquisition of KLM by IAG, there would be too much dominance of a single group in Europe. In the long distance future, as IAG gets bigger and bigger, we might see a near monopoly in the continent.

Competition is good, because the products get better and the fares get lower. I just prefer the current status quo: Lufthansa Group, IAG, AFKLM, Ryanair, EasyJet, just to name a few.
 
User avatar
PHBVF
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:32 pm

The article specifically mentions that this move would mean the end of the holding company and a deep level of cooperation and coordination with AF would remain.
I would call speculating about the end of the holding company quite premature (but entertaining and in the spirit of this forum), however given the way this is presented speculation of take overs by BA/LH are a stretch too far (even if only because both those companies are currently fighting for survival)
Licensed 777/787 driver
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:32 pm

Ciel wrote:
PM wrote:
Ciel wrote:
Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.

And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?


My point is that with a possible acquisition of KLM by IAG, there would be too much dominance of a single group in Europe. In the long distance future, as IAG gets bigger and bigger, we might see a near monopoly in the continent.

Competition is good, because the products get better and the fares get lower. I just prefer the current status quo: Lufthansa Group, IAG, AFKLM, Ryanair, EasyJet, just to name a few.


No monopoly i see.
LH group is huge. And the largest, probably even with KLM being in IAG.
Easyjet is huge.
So is Ryanair.
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:41 pm

DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:45 pm

Ciel wrote:
PM wrote:
Ciel wrote:
Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.

And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?


My point is that with a possible acquisition of KLM by IAG, there would be too much dominance of a single group in Europe. In the long distance future, as IAG gets bigger and bigger, we might see a near monopoly in the continent.

Competition is good, because the products get better and the fares get lower. I just prefer the current status quo: Lufthansa Group, IAG, AFKLM, Ryanair, EasyJet, just to name a few.
Understood but I honestly don't think KLM moving to IAG would be that big a deal.

In terms of fleets, adding KLM to IAG would simply bring it level with the Lufthansa Group.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... est-464803

IAG would be no more "gargantuan" that the LH Group is now. Fair enough, the continent would be dominated by two large entities but with AF, Alitalia, TAP, Finnair, SAS, etc., etc. (never mind the LCCs), there would still be plenty of competition.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:47 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.

See? That's another good reason to do it!
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:49 pm

But are we looking at what's best for the consumer (competition...) or are we looking at what's best for KLM?
 
Ciel
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:00 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:50 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
Ciel wrote:
PM wrote:
And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?


My point is that with a possible acquisition of KLM by IAG, there would be too much dominance of a single group in Europe. In the long distance future, as IAG gets bigger and bigger, we might see a near monopoly in the continent.

Competition is good, because the products get better and the fares get lower. I just prefer the current status quo: Lufthansa Group, IAG, AFKLM, Ryanair, EasyJet, just to name a few.


No monopoly i see.
LH group is huge. And the largest, probably even with KLM being in IAG.
Easyjet is huge.
So is Ryanair.


I went certainly too far by monopoly. This being said, if such scenario happens, I think there would be less competition, with only 4 very large groups dominating the airline industry in Europe: Lufthansa Group, IAG, EasyJet, and Ryanair.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:51 pm

Yes it would become like the USA.
 
devron
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:56 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:54 pm

jfk777 wrote:
AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia


What about Norwegian?

Isn't KL more profitable due to profits beign shifted from France to the Netherlands due to lower taxes, that is what i read a few times but never saw any numbers.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:03 pm

I think Europe is small enough to have just two LH and IAG (besides Ryanair and Easyjet).
But, chances are that the Dutch Government want to keep a stake in KL, and I don't know if IAG is okay with that.

As for AF/KL's future, I'm not convinced they'll last.
I hope that KL abandons ship while they can.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:09 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:09 pm

First, it is the job of every management to take all possibilities into account even tho they might never happen. Second, if IAG is the right option, if a split would happen, will only be seen after the UK/EU relationship is untangled and solved. We do not know yet how "cross-border" ownership of airlines will work out. The most stable group right now is the LH one, purely based on the fact, that they "only" have to deal with COVID. AFKLM better leave it that way too and do not add another problem by splitting. This might kill both of them.
 
Breathe
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:14 pm

You could see IAG/KLM tie-up happen this time round if the opportunity arose. I'm sure IAG would even be willing to move the corporate headquarters from Madrid to Amsterdam.

As a sidenote, Shell, Reckitt Benckiser, Unilever & RELX are examples of Anglo-Dutch companies merging and working well. So to find the managements of BA and KLM back in 2000 not being able to make it work back in the 2000s is a bit of a strange one. But I think a lot of the blame from what I read came down on the BA side.
 
User avatar
MrBren
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:19 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.


Exactly. AF saved KLM.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:39 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.

How times have changed, that was then this is now.
Flying blue only if possible
 
User avatar
jscottwomack
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:44 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:40 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.


Very True. Delta has ties with KLM back to Northwest days. Delta & KLM is a better codeshare than Delta Air France.
TWA, Ozark, Braniff, Piedmont, USAir, American, Delta, Frontier, Midwest Express, Western, Eastern, Southwest, Northwest, PanAm, United, Mississippi Valley, Britt, Continental, Trans America, Midway, America West, National, American Trans Air, Sun Country
 
Flanker7
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:42 pm

MrBren wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.


Exactly. AF saved KLM.

And?? No point dwelling in the past time have changed except AF stance to reform.
Flying blue only if possible
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:43 pm

Also KL would be kicked out of SkyTeam if they split up, wasn't AF responsible for their membership?
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:55 pm

Indeed this is pure speculation and premature.
KLM (employees) have shown willingness to reform to improve profitability at KLM. Besides KLM has benefited a lot from the 787 introduction.
Meanwhile AF employees have shown reluctant to reforms. This is basicly the difference between northern European and southern European budget policies.
Alone both AF and KLM can't survive. Both are skyteam partners. I really hope that Alitalia, Air Europe and Virgin Atlantic could remain partners with AF, KLM and Delta (skyteam).
What I don't see happening is KLM leaving skyteam. It's also a completely different topic.
I think, fleetwise KLM and Air Europe match. But IAG is swallowing them, if allowed by the EU. Alitalia has shown even more reluctant to reforms than Air France (to be expected from Italians). And the skyteam members partnership with Virgin Atlantic is in build-up phase, hopefully they'll survive the comming years.
The problem in Europe is that all member states have different employment regulations, resulting in the requirement for national subsidiaries. Thus the EU3 have to be airline groups, wheil the US3, ME3 and CH3 are airlines.
 
Breathe
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:57 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Also KL would be kicked out of SkyTeam if they split up, wasn't AF responsible for their membership?

I don't think OneWorld would have any issue welcoming them into their alliance.

Its unlikely to happen, but we do live in strange times now, so who knows...
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:00 pm

Didn't delta murge/ swallow an US airline. Delta was partner with AF, KLM was partner with the other US airline. AFAIK it was the US merger and financial trouble at KLM that resulted in the creation of AF-KLM.
Would the EU allow Alitalia and Air Europe murging with AF-KLM into a skyteam Europe group of airlines. I think this would be the best scenario for competition.
 
N292UX
Posts: 567
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:05 pm

KLM going to OneWorld would be OneWorld's ultimate revenge for LATAM leaving for DL.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:06 pm

It's fun to speculate but I don't see how they break up of AF-KL would result in Delta losing either partner? It's just as easy to envision an AF, KL, and DL JV as an AF-KL & Delta JV. If anything, it would seem to fit into the more traditional mold of a Delta JV where Delta is the dominant partner with more power in the relationship and they definitely would be if AF and KL split up.
Delta uses CDG and AMS as heavy connection points in Europe, AMS especially. It's difficult to see KL being better off with IAG where they'd need to share more connection traffic from AA via LHR, MAD, and DUB.
Last edited by JAMBOJET on Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
727tiger
Posts: 307
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:22 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:06 pm

jscottwomack wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.


Very True. Delta has ties with KLM back to Northwest days. Delta & KLM is a better codeshare than Delta Air France.


In my own experience, the DL-KLM codeshare works almost seamlessly. Between a DL-KLM combination itinerary and a DL-AF itinerary, I opt for DL-KLM. The choice between AMS and CDG, for me, is an easy choice to make.
 
FGITD
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:11 pm

jscottwomack wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.


Very True. Delta has ties with KLM back to Northwest days. Delta & KLM is a better codeshare than Delta Air France.


NW got "dragged" into Skyteam by KL after the AFKL group was formed in 2004. By that point AF and DL had already been working together in the alliance that they played a primary role in founding, for 4 years.

There's of course much more nuance in the nature of Inter airline relationships, but just thought I'd point that out.

I don't believe KLM would given the same Amount of independence as a member of any other airline group.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos