Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1283
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:19 pm

marcelh wrote:
Jetty wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
It's possible AF will be nationalized soon anyway.

If AF is nationalized KL will no longer be a part of it: KL being part of a government owned French company is unacceptable for all KL’s stakeholders.

The French government already owns about 14,3 percent of the AF-KL holding, so KLM is already partially owned by the French government...

Correct, but that minority stake already isn't liked by the Dutch hence they bought an equal stake to be on par with French ownership.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1008
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:20 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I wrote this a couple of months earlier, but what will happen is that AF will get a proper bailout and KL won't or KL's bailout will not be accepted because the Dutch government will ask too many conditions or will be too small.
The French will grow tired of the Dutch's nagging and will dictate the conditions, but the Dutch will suddenly issue new shares to the government, diluting AF-KLM's shreholding..

Just an opinion which isn’t backed up by facts. Continuously repeating your opinion in several threads won’t make it more credible.....
 
marcelh
Posts: 1008
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:28 pm

Jetty wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Jetty wrote:
If AF is nationalized KL will no longer be a part of it: KL being part of a government owned French company is unacceptable for all KL’s stakeholders.

The French government already owns about 14,3 percent of the AF-KL holding, so KLM is already partially owned by the French government...

Correct, but that minority stake already isn't liked by the Dutch hence they bought an equal stake to be on par with French ownership.

You are talking about nationalization of AF, not the holding AF-KLM.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:30 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I wrote this a couple of months earlier, but what will happen is that AF will get a proper bailout and KL won't or KL's bailout will not be accepted because the Dutch government will ask too many conditions or will be too small.
The French will grow tired of the Dutch's nagging and will dictate the conditions, but the Dutch will suddenly issue new shares to the government, diluting AF-KLM's shreholding.
It will take some time but this is IMO the beginning of the end for this tie-up.

KLM could end up being a stand-alone for a while, remaining partners with DL and perhaps even seeking some weird partnerships.
There will be interest for a tie-up with IAG but I don't think that the British will be very fond of that and they will be busy with whatever happens in the UK market after this.

AF and France are too important for DL, but DL won't have the global influence it had pre-Covid-19.

KLM will try to grow but after sevral years, their financial performance is going to be set back and the downsizing will begin.

Again, a lot of moving pieces but I see it playing out somewhat like that.

With the EU suspending competition rules, we are going to see many governments getting involved in airlines again and we may see the break up of alliances and fragmentation of the market, just like in the old days. The EU seems to have taken a backseat approach in all of this by botching the response on Covid-19. Member states stepped up and we don't hear anything coming out of the EU anymore.


Well written. If AFKL break up, KLM will be the loser in this new world. Not Air France.

Anyway AMS and KLM are too big for their natural size (Netherlands). There is not even a domestic market in NL. In a post-COVID world AMS should shrink much deeper than the LHR, CDG or FRA of the world. It is just common sense.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1283
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:32 pm

marcelh wrote:
Jetty wrote:
marcelh wrote:
The French government already owns about 14,3 percent of the AF-KL holding, so KLM is already partially owned by the French government...

Correct, but that minority stake already isn't liked by the Dutch hence they bought an equal stake to be on par with French ownership.

You are talking about nationalization of AF, not the holding AF-KLM.

Then what would be left of Air France / KLM would be a French company with the French government as shareholder and KLM as it's only airline. Interesting. :)
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:35 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.


They can scream all they want. But they no longer have the money to do anything about it. Delta has their own solvency to worry about.
 
NLDru
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:18 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:36 pm

MrBren wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.


Exactly. AF saved KLM.


Thank you for that.

But that doesn't mean AF can just sit back and relax. KLM currently achieves 70% turnover for the entire group, while AF is twice as large as KLM. KLM has made a lot of effort in the past decades without complaining much. KLM had two excellent subsidiaries Transavia and Cityhopper. Wouldn't it be great if AF also made a lot of profit, it has it all. Beautiful aircrafts, large fleet, a large hub, a large global network. It has it all.

But perhaps it is due the Dutch, because the KLM marriage with Alitalia also ran aground. While the Italian managers complained about the poor Dutch lunch at KLM HQ, KLM complained that the Italians kept postponing everything. At the end, KLM broke off the relationship, resulting in a fine of EUR 250 million. I think it is better for KLM to get an Anglo-Saxon partner, for example SAS or LH.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:46 pm

NLDru wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:

?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.


Exactly. AF saved KLM.


Thank you for that.

But that doesn't mean AF can just sit back and relax. KLM currently achieves 70% turnover for the entire group, while AF is twice as large as KLM. KLM has made a lot of effort in the past decades without complaining much. KLM had two excellent subsidiaries Transavia and Cityhopper. Wouldn't it be great if AF also made a lot of profit, it has it all. Beautiful aircrafts, large fleet, a large hub, a large global network. It has it all.

But perhaps it is due the Dutch, because the KLM marriage with Alitalia also ran aground. While the Italian managers complained about the poor Dutch lunch at KLM HQ, KLM complained that the Italians kept postponing everything. At the end, KLM broke off the relationship, resulting in a fine of EUR 250 million. I think it is better for KLM to get an Anglo-Saxon partner, for example SAS or LH.


Again, Transavia France and Air France LH and MH are profitable. What is bleeding money for AF are Hop and AF non-"la navette" (ORY-TLS/MRS/BOS/MPL) or PSO services out of Paris. Something KL simply does not have to deal with. We are comparing apples to bananas. btw : the whole AF is still making a profit, albeit with a low margin. Ya'll are commenting as if the airline was bleeding money which is simply not true (altho it has in the past, just like KL, LH, DL, AA, UA etc etc have in the past).
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:27 pm

KL has always enjoyed significant autonomy under AFKL, which also leaves space for some of those debates. IAG would not allow this. Nobody knows who the CEO of Iberia is for example. That's why the Dutch did not want BA.

They are better off in that imperfect alliance, which lets them make their own wise equipment choices for example, like the 737 max.

People who want KLM back as an independent Dutch flagship also think that Fokker could soon develop a new airplane.
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.


They can scream all they want. But they no longer have the money to do anything about it. Delta has their own solvency to worry about.


There are anti-trust issues that won't go away just because of this pandemic. Like I said, this is just an exercise.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:19 am

BN727227Ultra wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
DL would scream bloody murder if KL went to IAG.


They can scream all they want. But they no longer have the money to do anything about it. Delta has their own solvency to worry about.


There are anti-trust issues that won't go away just because of this pandemic. Like I said, this is just an exercise.


A free agent KLM would be awesome for competition. I can't see any regulatory authority having an issue with that.
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:28 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

They can scream all they want. But they no longer have the money to do anything about it. Delta has their own solvency to worry about.


There are anti-trust issues that won't go away just because of this pandemic. Like I said, this is just an exercise.


A free agent KLM would be awesome for competition. I can't see any regulatory authority having an issue with that.


In a vacuum, yes. For example, if KL went with IAG, there'd be lawyers and lobbyists from both DL and UA pestering US, EU and UK regulators.

I also think an AF/KL breakup might be a black eye for the EU, more of one than the problem of AZ not being able to get their house in order.
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1514
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:37 am

sekant wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic, but touching on the apparent French willingness to do so.
As a seasoned non-rev traveller, the difference in flying KL to AF is absolutely astounding. KL staff always try and bend over backwards to help you out, to get you where toU need to go, whereas AF staff are the complete opposite, and really really make it known that they are doing you a favour.
Such a joy to fly KL,,, not so with AF.


Fully agreed.
However I believe this is not an AF vs KL comparison but a France vs Netherlands behaviour.
Been to both a lot, the difference is astonishing, not only onboard.


I travel extensively for work, meaning business class, the difference between KLM and Air France is a difference between night (KLM) and day (Air France), from food to staff attitude to lounges, ....

One other point, if KLM think that being in bed with Air France is such a drag, then pull the plug already ... because that constant whining is getting more than tiresome, especially considering how Air France helped KLM out of the hole it was in, how the AF-KLM group enabled KLM to expand, ....


KL does offer very good crew and a great connecting airport, but the food on AF is much better, as is their service in business class. With the new seats up front (with the exception of the A380), AF will have a competitive hard product. The back of the bus on either carrier is just as bad as it is on other airlines. There is really very little difference in Y among carriers anymore with the exception of a couple of carriers in the Gulf and Asia.
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:17 am

Amsterdam wrote:
Ciel wrote:
PM wrote:
And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?


My point is that with a possible acquisition of KLM by IAG, there would be too much dominance of a single group in Europe. In the long distance future, as IAG gets bigger and bigger, we might see a near monopoly in the continent.

Competition is good, because the products get better and the fares get lower. I just prefer the current status quo: Lufthansa Group, IAG, AFKLM, Ryanair, EasyJet, just to name a few.


No monopoly i see.
LH group is huge. And the largest, probably even with KLM being in IAG.
Easyjet is huge.
So is Ryanair.


Maybe this is a dumb question but is IAG particularly flush with the cash that would be needed for KLM?
 
LMFNINJA
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:11 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:01 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic, but touching on the apparent French willingness to do so.
As a seasoned non-rev traveller, the difference in flying KL to AF is absolutely astounding. KL staff always try and bend over backwards to help you out, to get you where toU need to go, whereas AF staff are the complete opposite, and really really make it known that they are doing you a favour.
Such a joy to fly KL,,, not so with AF.


I do not agree. I have flown Air France numerous times trans-Atlantic and domestically and the AF staff and service is exceptional. From the pilots to the flight attendants to the ground staff I have found all of them to be very polite and helpful. Much better than Air Canada which is supposedly the best airline in North America lol.
 
Blerg
Posts: 3956
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:51 am

Thibault973 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Here is an example of how poisonous it was :D
Source: https://youtu.be/CWu60917X9k

Savages :o Who would want unhinged people like that near the controls of an aircraft?

KLM largest strike in recent history for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hteyu8w9xE


The man had just announced a 2900 jobs cut, I'd dare say that 1/2 a shirt is a small prizer to pay. As to those "savages", without them we'd still have a king, no pay leaves etc. etc. etc. Long live de French savages <3 <3


You mean the same monarchy that made France the beautiful country it is today? ;) Vive le roi

By the way, anyone know what was KL's fleet structure when the deal with AF happened?
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:17 am

There would be a competition related issue for a tie-up between IAG and KLM because Amsterdam is a major hub for flight from the islands off Western Europe and also transatlantic flights. Finnair or SAS are more suitable to KLM's structure as a company that connects to places in Europe that are hard to reach by railway.

IAG never really made any sense unless they wanted to expand into the Americas. What exactly does a company such as British Airways have in common with Iberia?
 
onwFan
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:33 am

airhansa wrote:
IAG never really made any sense unless they wanted to expand into the Americas. What exactly does a company such as British Airways have in common with Iberia?

What are you talking about?? Isn’t that the whole point - why would you have airlines with common networks within the same group??? As a matter of fact, IAG is the one airline group that makes the most sense: BA’s focus is North America while IB’s focus is Latin america. They have FY as a JV partner for Asia. All they are missing is a member for intra-Europe and they are trying to shape VY to suit that purpose - which I must admit has not been so successful.

AF/KL networks basically entirely redundant except for Africa. LX and OS pretty much serve a subset of LH’s destinations with SN being the only exception with a focus on West africa. The point of airline groups should be to have a role/niche for each carrier. Otherwise you will always have one eating into the other like LH and AF/KL.
 
onwFan
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:38 am

Duplicate - delete
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:13 am

marcelh wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
I wrote this a couple of months earlier, but what will happen is that AF will get a proper bailout and KL won't or KL's bailout will not be accepted because the Dutch government will ask too many conditions or will be too small.
The French will grow tired of the Dutch's nagging and will dictate the conditions, but the Dutch will suddenly issue new shares to the government, diluting AF-KLM's shreholding..

Just an opinion which isn’t backed up by facts. Continuously repeating your opinion in several threads won’t make it more credible.....


Not as much an opinion as a guess or prediction.
Take it at entertainment value, but I've made some "wild" predictions around here in the past, met with solid criticism like yours, and they have come true.

The only one that still has to materialise is the long-term potential I see in the A380.
But after seeing how the big fish at airlines and OEM's botched risk management and early responses to this crisis, I wonder if execs in this industry have the brains to tell their hands from their feet, let alone think outside the box on something bigger than the box like the A380.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:03 am

Thank you for that.

But that doesn't mean AF can just sit back and relax. KLM currently achieves 70% turnover for the entire group, while AF is twice as large as KLM. KLM has made a lot of effort in the past decades without complaining much. KLM had two excellent subsidiaries Transavia and Cityhopper. Wouldn't it be great if AF also made a lot of profit, it has it all. Beautiful aircrafts, large fleet, a large hub, a large global network. It has it all.

But perhaps it is due the Dutch, because the KLM marriage with Alitalia also ran aground. While the Italian managers complained about the poor Dutch lunch at KLM HQ, KLM complained that the Italians kept postponing everything. At the end, KLM broke off the relationship, resulting in a fine of EUR 250 million. I think it is better for KLM to get an Anglo-Saxon partner, for example SAS or LH.[/quote]

Do you understand the definition of turnover? If you did, you would understand the gross error in your statement... because it is actually pretty much the reverse. AF accounts for most of the group's turnover.

I am so tired of these threads... full of nonsense with no credibility whatsoever. Groupe AFKL is not going anywhere other than forward together with Transavia and deeply baked into Skyteam. End of story.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1008
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:06 am

Curiousflyer wrote:
KL has always enjoyed significant autonomy under AFKL, which also leaves space for some of those debates. IAG would not allow this. Nobody knows who the CEO of Iberia is for example. That's why the Dutch did not want BA.

They are better off in that imperfect alliance, which lets them make their own wise equipment choices for example, like the 737 max.

People who want KLM back as an independent Dutch flagship also think that Fokker could soon develop a new airplane.


:checkmark: ding, ding, we have a winner!
 
questions
Posts: 2338
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:31 am

LMFNINJA wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic, but touching on the apparent French willingness to do so.
As a seasoned non-rev traveller, the difference in flying KL to AF is absolutely astounding. KL staff always try and bend over backwards to help you out, to get you where toU need to go, whereas AF staff are the complete opposite, and really really make it known that they are doing you a favour.
Such a joy to fly KL,,, not so with AF.


I do not agree. I have flown Air France numerous times trans-Atlantic and domestically and the AF staff and service is exceptional. From the pilots to the flight attendants to the ground staff I have found all of them to be very polite and helpful. Much better than Air Canada which is supposedly the best airline in North America lol.


I have flown AF in F and J four RT’s TATL in the past five years, one in new J. All were very good (excluding dated J hard product). Connections in CDG were easy. I’d fly them again. I haven’t flown KLM in more than 10 years.
 
questions
Posts: 2338
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:38 am

N292UX wrote:
KLM going to OneWorld would be OneWorld's ultimate revenge for LATAM leaving for DL.


I thought the ultimate revenge was AA creating a hub in SEA, partnering with AS and AS joining oneworld.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 am

This all still sounds like more speculation than rumor at this point. Hard to imagine that there would be such a drastic breakup. Even if it were to happen, I bet KL would still be in the DL/AF sphere of influence, not unlike how AZ quietly left the AF/DL/KL JV but is still a major Skyteam partner.

Not that this would have ever happened, but sometimes I think AF/KL would have been better balanced had they somehow acquired SN. That would have been an interesting Franco-Flemish-Dutch tie-up. Or, going back 20+ years, I think UA and AF would have been perfect partners. They both have ideal hubs but have a history of mismanagement, it would have been perfect chaos. :P
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:38 am

onwFan wrote:
airhansa wrote:
IAG never really made any sense unless they wanted to expand into the Americas. What exactly does a company such as British Airways have in common with Iberia?

What are you talking about?? Isn’t that the whole point - why would you have airlines with common networks within the same group??? As a matter of fact, IAG is the one airline group that makes the most sense: BA’s focus is North America while IB’s focus is Latin america. They have FY as a JV partner for Asia. All they are missing is a member for intra-Europe and they are trying to shape VY to suit that purpose - which I must admit has not been so successful.

AF/KL networks basically entirely redundant except for Africa. LX and OS pretty much serve a subset of LH’s destinations with SN being the only exception with a focus on West africa. The point of airline groups should be to have a role/niche for each carrier. Otherwise you will always have one eating into the other like LH and AF/KL.


I agree that the IAG merger makes sense in the Americas, but they are still an alliance of national airlines that serve domestic interests. If IAG were to expand significantly in the Americas, then it would be a good move, but the two airlines need to cater for domestic markets just as much as the Americas.

For a merger to work, they needs to be some sort of synergy between the two companies. You don't just merge a computer company with a fabric company. Iberia and BA only make sense on transatlantic routes and the Americas (which they have yet to expand into). At the same time it completely ignores the rest of the world.
 
18wheelers
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:22 am

Here are few interesting figures extracted from the AFKL annual report just after the merger (2004-05) compared to the figures from the 2019 annual report.

Fleet
31/12/2004
KLM had a total of 181 aircrafts including KLC + 26 at Transavia Holland = 207 aircrafts
Air France had a total of 370 aircrafts including regional subsidiaries. (In fact, 387, but 17 not in direct operation with the company and its subsidiaries)

31/12/2018
KLM 169 aircrafts + 40 at Transavia Holland (+1%)
AF 305 aircrafts + 34 at Transavia France (-9%)

Employees (Not taking into account Transavia or regional carriers)
31/12/2004
KLM : 28105 employees
AF : 63156 employees

31/12/2018
KLM : 23147 employees (-18%)
AF : 44728 employees (-30%)

So we just can’t say that AF is not willing to change its structure. It is changing for sure. Let’s also not forget the huge differences between France and Holland taxes environment.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:31 am

18wheelers wrote:
Here are few interesting figures extracted from the AFKL annual report just after the merger (2004-05) compared to the figures from the 2019 annual report.

Fleet
31/12/2004
KLM had a total of 181 aircrafts including KLC + 26 at Transavia Holland = 207 aircrafts
Air France had a total of 370 aircrafts including regional subsidiaries. (In fact, 387, but 17 not in direct operation with the company and its subsidiaries)

31/12/2018
KLM 169 aircrafts + 40 at Transavia Holland (+1%)
AF 305 aircrafts + 34 at Transavia France (-9%)

Employees (Not taking into account Transavia or regional carriers)
31/12/2004
KLM : 28105 employees
AF : 63156 employees

31/12/2018
KLM : 23147 employees (-18%)
AF : 44728 employees (-30%)

So we just can’t say that AF is not willing to change its structure. It is changing for sure. Let’s also not forget the huge differences between France and Holland taxes environment.


Thanks for the info, but it is quite irrelevant.
Its about making money.
You need to make money.
Cutting staff while the remaining staff is still too expensive does clearly not work as the AF profit margins during the best years for aviation of the last 60 years have made clear in 2016/2017/18/19.

All that matters is the bottom line.

Also, its not about aircraft but about seats.
An airline can have less aircraft but more seats compared to a different period.
 
nicode
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:34 am

French are bad people.
Dutch are wonderfull people.
AF is a bad airline.
KL is a very good airline.
IAG is very good, and AFKL bad.

Always the same thing on a.net.



That is 60% of cheap discussions from some people on this topic, with no valid arguments...
And the revenge of IAG with DL/Latam is to have KLM ? And what about AirEuropa ?

I thought DL wanted a more exclusive relationship with some ST members (DL with AM-KE-AF-KL-WS-MU) with strenghen relationship with luggage allowance, seats allowance, restrictive tickets...
 
jsfr
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:36 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:43 am

airbuster wrote:
For what it’s worth: I’m Dutch, I work for KL and I would hate a breakup.

AF saved us of our own peril in the past, we owe them a lot.


Dank u wel for such a valid and objective comment from someone who is really impacted!

This as opposed to all of the proud nationalist spotters on this forum who keep going on and on and on. It’s getting a little boring really....
 
FGITD
Posts: 856
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:27 pm

jsfr wrote:

This as opposed to all of the proud nationalist spotters on this forum who keep going on and on and on. It’s getting a little boring really....


This is pretty much what the whole conservation comes down to. You'll be hard pressed to find AF or KL employees who want a breakup. IAG is a great group, no doubt. But if KL went that way, get ready to lose everything that makes KLM unique. LH is also great, but will give no autonomy to KL.

As others have said, it's far from perfect. But the reason these debates even exist is because AFKL is structured to give the power to each airline. You never hear of Iberia threatening to leave IAG, or Swiss trying to leave LH. And I'm sure AFKL could save a fortune if they integrated more, and gave less power to each airline
 
factsonly
Posts: 2921
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:57 pm

KLM Management must be sick of A.net, they have decided to push back on this nonsense:

KLM CEO states clearly........ No FAREWELL to AF.


https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/157 ... air-france


Please stop FAKE NEWS !!!
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:12 pm

factsonly wrote:
KLM Management must be sick of A.net, they have decided to push back on this nonsense:

KLM CEO states clearly........ No FAREWELL to AF.


https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/157 ... air-france


Please stop FAKE NEWS !!!


It's about time an official announcement was made to stop all that nonsensical fearmongering speculation.
(which all started from one single dutch article with highly questionable credibility, and impulsive media outlets sharing that same story).
Some comments about how great KLM would do on its own given the current crisis are clearly out of touch with reality.

:bigthumbsup:
Last edited by AirwayBill on Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:13 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


Do the fleets really matter? IAG group airlines have pretty similar fleets, if anything KL would be the outlier: no A350s when EI, BA and IB all do.
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4772
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:44 pm

factsonly wrote:
KLM Management must be sick of A.net, they have decided to push back on this nonsense:

KLM CEO states clearly........ No FAREWELL to AF.


https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/157 ... air-france


Please stop FAKE NEWS !!!


Thank you for posting. As I noted earlier, a breakup wouldn't necessarily mean KL would jump into the hands of IAG anyway. Unraveling the JV with DL and AF won't be easy. Further, KL would lose a ton of autonomy in IAG that they've so far enjoyed with AF.
MrHMSH wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why KLM ever merged with Air France never made any sense, AF has always been the second worse run airline in Europe after Alitalia. KLM would fit very nicely in the IAG portfolio, especially with their 777 & 787 long haul fleets.


Do the fleets really matter? IAG group airlines have pretty similar fleets, if anything KL would be the outlier: no A350s when EI, BA and IB all do.


Indeed. It doesn't really make sense when you break it down considering AFs very large 777 longhaul fleet (and relatively small Airbus longhaul fleet). Not to mention, BA is actually the outlier in IAG with a heavily Boeing longhaul fleet, since both IB and EI have Airbus longhaul fleets.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Olddog
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:52 pm

I think it could be fun if KLM ends with LH. I very much doubt it could be allowed to pursue their Boeing narrowbody fleet strategy, just to not be mixed with the group :)
Signature censored
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:05 pm

airbuster wrote:
For what it’s worth: I’m Dutch, I work for KL and I would hate a breakup.

AF saved us of our own peril in the past, we owe them a lot.

I agree. And if a breakup would happen, KLM won’t survive on their own. KLM wouldn’t exist today if it wasn’t for AF’s help back in 2004. KLM would never get 100 without the merger. There is no chance that AF and KL are going to break up. And Pieter Elbers has confirmed that.
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1283
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:38 pm

AirwayBill wrote:
factsonly wrote:
KLM Management must be sick of A.net, they have decided to push back on this nonsense:

KLM CEO states clearly........ No FAREWELL to AF.
It's about time an official announcement was made to stop all that nonsensical fearmongering speculation.

What did you expect him to say: "yes, we're working on seperation scenario's"? :scratchchin:

To keep a working relationship with AF/France, KLM/The Dutch government would never publically announce such plans if they weren't final. It might very well be that no such scenario's are in the works, but Elbers' public statement wouldn't be different if there are.

Remember when The Dutch government with prior knowledge by KL secretly bought 14% of AFKL and AF/France only found out afterwards?
 
AMS18C36C
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:51 pm

NLDru wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:

?? When KL merged with AF, KL was loss making while AF was the single most profitable airline in the world.


Exactly. AF saved KLM.


Thank you for that.

But that doesn't mean AF can just sit back and relax. KLM currently achieves 70% turnover for the entire group, while AF is twice as large as KLM. KLM has made a lot of effort in the past decades without complaining much. KLM had two excellent subsidiaries Transavia and Cityhopper. Wouldn't it be great if AF also made a lot of profit, it has it all. Beautiful aircrafts, large fleet, a large hub, a large global network. It has it all.


I didn' realize KLM was in bad shape in 2004, thank you for sharing that. The Dutch media seem to conveniently forget that fact, and are focussed on AF's strikes, scenario's of AF trying to 'steal' KL's profits and Ben Smith trying to 'seize' control.

Things have changed since 2004, and I agree that AF shouldn't be standing still. As much as the Dutch media seems to be biased against Ben Smith, I'm left wondering if he'' going to use this crisis and subsequent government support with conditions to make changes at AF. Maybe he's the right man for the job, as an outsider?

As much as I'm biased for KLM and AF-KLM isn't the happiest of unions, I don't think it will fall apart.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:54 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
NLDru wrote:
MrBren wrote:

Exactly. AF saved KLM.


Thank you for that.

But that doesn't mean AF can just sit back and relax. KLM currently achieves 70% turnover for the entire group, while AF is twice as large as KLM. KLM has made a lot of effort in the past decades without complaining much. KLM had two excellent subsidiaries Transavia and Cityhopper. Wouldn't it be great if AF also made a lot of profit, it has it all. Beautiful aircrafts, large fleet, a large hub, a large global network. It has it all.


I didn' realize KLM was in bad shape in 2004, thank you for sharing that. The Dutch media seem to conveniently forget that fact, and are focussed on AF's strikes, scenario's of AF trying to 'steal' KL's profits and Ben Smith trying to 'seize' control.

Things have changed since 2004, and I agree that AF shouldn't be standing still. As much as the Dutch media seems to be biased against Ben Smith, I'm left wondering if he'' going to use this crisis and subsequent government support with conditions to make changes at AF. Maybe he's the right man for the job, as an outsider?

As much as I'm biased for KLM and AF-KLM isn't the happiest of unions, I don't think it will fall apart.

I’m Dutch and I honestly don’t know why people here like Pieter Elbers and hate Ben Smith. Ben Smith is working to achieve a IAG-like structure, a good thing in my opinion. I never liked Pieter Elbers, but I do respect him for returning KLM back to profitability.
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:27 pm

FlyingBlueKLM, a question about you signature.

KJFK - EGLL:
Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds
Boeing 747: 6 hours, and 45 minutes


Flying between JFK and LHR usually takes less than 6 hours and 45 minutes. Why was this Boeing 747 so slow? The current record for the type is 4 hours and 56 minutes, set in February of this year.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:34 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
I’m Dutch and I honestly don’t know why people here like Pieter Elbers and hate Ben Smith. Ben Smith is working to achieve a IAG-like structure, a good thing in my opinion. I never liked Pieter Elbers, but I do respect him for returning KLM back to profitability.

Maybe you should ask the more than 25,000 KLM employees who stood up for Elbers in early 2019, when it became clear that Smith wanted him to leave.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1283
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:40 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
I’m Dutch and I honestly don’t know why people here like Pieter Elbers

This part isn’t hard to understand, he’s a charismatic down to earth guy from a simple background who started at KLM as a cargo handling supervisor and worked his way all the way up (unlike the political ‘grand ecole’ cronies usually in charge of AF I might add).
 
Thibault973
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:51 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
NLDru wrote:
MrBren wrote:

Exactly. AF saved KLM.


I didn' realize KLM was in bad shape in 2004, thank you for sharing that. The Dutch media seem to conveniently forget that fact, and are focussed on AF's strikes, scenario's of AF trying to 'steal' KL's profits and Ben Smith trying to 'seize' control.


People do seem to have very short memories.

In 1996, AF was the 3rd biggest airline in Europe with a 13,2% market share (after BA at #1 and LH at #1) with KL sitting just behind at 11,3%
In 2003, the year of the so-called merger (which actually was an acquisition of KL by AF) AF was #1 in Europe with a 17% market share (with LH then at #2 and BA at #3) while KL had fallen to a 9,6% market share.

In 2001, when most airlines were burning cash, AF posted a net profit of 421 million Euros.

In 2003, AF paid 784 millions Euros to acquire KL, which at the time was 40% over KL's stock value. In fact, on the day the merger was announced, KL's stock when up 12,54% while AF went down 4,16%. KL was loss making and had just been through 2 failed turn around plans.

At the time, AF and KL really complimented each other : AF relied heavily on its domestic market which accounted for 40% of its capacity and was pretty much a point to point airline with "just" 40% of it's passenger in CDG connecting onward while KL was obviously more of an international airline with 60% of its passengers connecting in AMS. AF was very strong in West Africa and South America but weak in Asia with was KL's strongpoint together with East Africa.

Both also had very strong ties with DL & NW who ended up merging themselves.

In 2003, when the 2 airlines merged (although as I said it was more of a takeover, AFKL initially being 81% French owned and 19% Dutch owned with the French government owning 54% of the whole company) it created the biggest airline in the world in terme of revenue (with 20 B$ - AF as a standalone carrier was #6), 2nd biggest (passenger) cargo airline and 3rd biggest airline in terms of passengers carried. The merger also made ST the #1 alliance in terms of passengers carried with a 21% market share.

By 2007, AFKL revenue soared 30% and they became the most profitable airline in the world, posting a 1,2B$ profit this year. In just 3 years, they had achieved a 1/2B$ cost cutting program by cutting overlaping back office positions. Everyone was raving about what a success the whole thing was and it started a phase of much needed consolidation in Europe.

By 2009, things started to go South, with what used to be AF's biggest asset, it's domestic network, becoming a liability, especially with U2's momentum (which AF felt pretty hard on its 2 cash cows, namely Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice where they didn't have to compete with the TGV). When U2 entered the Paris-Marseille market (before redrawing), they ended what was the biggest monopoly market in the world (with about 30 daily AF flights each way). It's also interesting to note that AF was then the biggest operator at LCY, thru WX, which while prestigious, ended up costing them a lot of money (in 2010, AF lost 50 millions Euros just on its LCY network).

One last thing, as I said, in 2001, AF was one of the most profitable airlines in the world...when they were literally on the verge of collaps just 3 years prior in 1998. They had already flirted with bankruptcy in 1993 before that.

One of the reason why KL is now so successful (altho people also forget that KL posted a net loss in 2017 and that while TO has been profitable for the past few years, the same cannot be said for its Dutch counterpart HV, so much so that HV's shares in TO were transferred to AF a few years ago) is because most of AFKL long haul growth has been directed over at AMS in order to avoid French unions and French tax laws. In fact about 40% of France's CAC40 companies maintain subsidiaries of some sorts in The Netherlands. So much so that just last week after announcing that no French companies maintaining subsidiaries in tax heavens would be eligible for State aid, the measure was withdrawn because the Government realized it would de facto eliminate most of the biggest French companies, including AF since the NL are indeed a tax heaven (as is Ireland. Altho by law, no European territory can be qualified as a tax heaven the gvt still worried their aid package would be challenged in court).

Anyway, it's always good to have a little bit of context. I for one, wish AFKL the best, as I am a strong believer in stronger together.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1008
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:12 am

Thibault973 wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
NLDru wrote:


I didn' realize KLM was in bad shape in 2004, thank you for sharing that. The Dutch media seem to conveniently forget that fact, and are focussed on AF's strikes, scenario's of AF trying to 'steal' KL's profits and Ben Smith trying to 'seize' control.


People do seem to have very short memories.

In 1996, AF was the 3rd biggest airline in Europe with a 13,2% market share (after BA at #1 and LH at #1) with KL sitting just behind at 11,3%
In 2003, the year of the so-called merger (which actually was an acquisition of KL by AF) AF was #1 in Europe with a 17% market share (with LH then at #2 and BA at #3) while KL had fallen to a 9,6% market share.

In 2001, when most airlines were burning cash, AF posted a net profit of 421 million Euros.

In 2003, AF paid 784 millions Euros to acquire KL, which at the time was 40% over KL's stock value. In fact, on the day the merger was announced, KL's stock when up 12,54% while AF went down 4,16%. KL was loss making and had just been through 2 failed turn around plans.

At the time, AF and KL really complimented each other : AF relied heavily on its domestic market which accounted for 40% of its capacity and was pretty much a point to point airline with "just" 40% of it's passenger in CDG connecting onward while KL was obviously more of an international airline with 60% of its passengers connecting in AMS. AF was very strong in West Africa and South America but weak in Asia with was KL's strongpoint together with East Africa.

Both also had very strong ties with DL & NW who ended up merging themselves.

In 2003, when the 2 airlines merged (although as I said it was more of a takeover, AFKL initially being 81% French owned and 19% Dutch owned with the French government owning 54% of the whole company) it created the biggest airline in the world in terme of revenue (with 20 B$ - AF as a standalone carrier was #6), 2nd biggest (passenger) cargo airline and 3rd biggest airline in terms of passengers carried. The merger also made ST the #1 alliance in terms of passengers carried with a 21% market share.

By 2007, AFKL revenue soared 30% and they became the most profitable airline in the world, posting a 1,2B$ profit this year. In just 3 years, they had achieved a 1/2B$ cost cutting program by cutting overlaping back office positions. Everyone was raving about what a success the whole thing was and it started a phase of much needed consolidation in Europe.

By 2009, things started to go South, with what used to be AF's biggest asset, it's domestic network, becoming a liability, especially with U2's momentum (which AF felt pretty hard on its 2 cash cows, namely Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice where they didn't have to compete with the TGV). When U2 entered the Paris-Marseille market (before redrawing), they ended what was the biggest monopoly market in the world (with about 30 daily AF flights each way). It's also interesting to note that AF was then the biggest operator at LCY, thru WX, which while prestigious, ended up costing them a lot of money (in 2010, AF lost 50 millions Euros just on its LCY network).

One last thing, as I said, in 2001, AF was one of the most profitable airlines in the world...when they were literally on the verge of collaps just 3 years prior in 1998. They had already flirted with bankruptcy in 1993 before that.

One of the reason why KL is now so successful (altho people also forget that KL posted a net loss in 2017 and that while TO has been profitable for the past few years, the same cannot be said for its Dutch counterpart HV, so much so that HV's shares in TO were transferred to AF a few years ago) is because most of AFKL long haul growth has been directed over at AMS in order to avoid French unions and French tax laws. In fact about 40% of France's CAC40 companies maintain subsidiaries of some sorts in The Netherlands. So much so that just last week after announcing that no French companies maintaining subsidiaries in tax heavens would be eligible for State aid, the measure was withdrawn because the Government realized it would de facto eliminate most of the biggest French companies, including AF since the NL are indeed a tax heaven (as is Ireland. Altho by law, no European territory can be qualified as a tax heaven the gvt still worried their aid package would be challenged in court).

Anyway, it's always good to have a little bit of context. I for one, wish AFKL the best, as I am a strong believer in stronger together.

Nice story, but ends with off topic moaning about “tax heavens”. Has nothing to do with “context”. What’s next: Eurobonds?
 
Thibault973
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:11 am

marcelh wrote:
Nice story, but ends with off topic moaning about “tax heavens”. Has nothing to do with “context”. What’s next: Eurobonds?


I'm sorry, I'm French and in French we say Paradis fiscaux which literally translates to "tax heavens".

As for it being an hoax, here is a link, in French sorry, from the French Senate news agency : https://www.publicsenat.fr/article/poli ... UA_Zu_39qQ

And here is (in English) a report from the European Parliament on financial crimes, tax evasion and tax avoidance : https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/ ... -PROV(2019)0240.pdf.

I will save you the trouble of reading the whole thing:

" the Commission has criticised seven Member States– Belgium, Cyprus, Hungary, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta and the Netherlands – for shortcomings in their tax systems that facilitate aggressive tax planning, arguing that they undermine the integrity of the European single market; takes the view that these jurisdictions can also be regarded as facilitating aggressive tax planning globally; highlights that the Commission has acknowledged that some of the aforementioned Member States have taken measures to improve their tax systems to address the Commission’s criticism - [b]notes that a recent research study has identified five EU Member States as corporate tax havens: Cyprus, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta and the Netherlands[/b]; stresses that the criteria and methodology used to select those Member States included a comprehensive assessment of their harmful tax practices, measures that facilitate aggressive tax planning and distortion of economic flows based on Eurostat data, which included a combination of high inward and outward foreign direct investment, royalties, interests and dividend flows; calls on the Commission to currently regard at least these five Member States as EU tax havens until substantial tax reforms are implemented "
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:19 am

Thibault973 wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
NLDru wrote:


I didn' realize KLM was in bad shape in 2004, thank you for sharing that. The Dutch media seem to conveniently forget that fact, and are focussed on AF's strikes, scenario's of AF trying to 'steal' KL's profits and Ben Smith trying to 'seize' control.


People do seem to have very short memories.

In 1996, AF was the 3rd biggest airline in Europe with a 13,2% market share (after BA at #1 and LH at #1) with KL sitting just behind at 11,3%
In 2003, the year of the so-called merger (which actually was an acquisition of KL by AF) AF was #1 in Europe with a 17% market share (with LH then at #2 and BA at #3) while KL had fallen to a 9,6% market share.

In 2001, when most airlines were burning cash, AF posted a net profit of 421 million Euros.

In 2003, AF paid 784 millions Euros to acquire KL, which at the time was 40% over KL's stock value. In fact, on the day the merger was announced, KL's stock when up 12,54% while AF went down 4,16%. KL was loss making and had just been through 2 failed turn around plans.

At the time, AF and KL really complimented each other : AF relied heavily on its domestic market which accounted for 40% of its capacity and was pretty much a point to point airline with "just" 40% of it's passenger in CDG connecting onward while KL was obviously more of an international airline with 60% of its passengers connecting in AMS. AF was very strong in West Africa and South America but weak in Asia with was KL's strongpoint together with East Africa.

Both also had very strong ties with DL & NW who ended up merging themselves.

In 2003, when the 2 airlines merged (although as I said it was more of a takeover, AFKL initially being 81% French owned and 19% Dutch owned with the French government owning 54% of the whole company) it created the biggest airline in the world in terme of revenue (with 20 B$ - AF as a standalone carrier was #6), 2nd biggest (passenger) cargo airline and 3rd biggest airline in terms of passengers carried. The merger also made ST the #1 alliance in terms of passengers carried with a 21% market share.

By 2007, AFKL revenue soared 30% and they became the most profitable airline in the world, posting a 1,2B$ profit this year. In just 3 years, they had achieved a 1/2B$ cost cutting program by cutting overlaping back office positions. Everyone was raving about what a success the whole thing was and it started a phase of much needed consolidation in Europe.

By 2009, things started to go South, with what used to be AF's biggest asset, it's domestic network, becoming a liability, especially with U2's momentum (which AF felt pretty hard on its 2 cash cows, namely Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice where they didn't have to compete with the TGV). When U2 entered the Paris-Marseille market (before redrawing), they ended what was the biggest monopoly market in the world (with about 30 daily AF flights each way). It's also interesting to note that AF was then the biggest operator at LCY, thru WX, which while prestigious, ended up costing them a lot of money (in 2010, AF lost 50 millions Euros just on its LCY network).

One last thing, as I said, in 2001, AF was one of the most profitable airlines in the world...when they were literally on the verge of collaps just 3 years prior in 1998. They had already flirted with bankruptcy in 1993 before that.

One of the reason why KL is now so successful (altho people also forget that KL posted a net loss in 2017 and that while TO has been profitable for the past few years, the same cannot be said for its Dutch counterpart HV, so much so that HV's shares in TO were transferred to AF a few years ago) is because most of AFKL long haul growth has been directed over at AMS in order to avoid French unions and French tax laws. In fact about 40% of France's CAC40 companies maintain subsidiaries of some sorts in The Netherlands. So much so that just last week after announcing that no French companies maintaining subsidiaries in tax heavens would be eligible for State aid, the measure was withdrawn because the Government realized it would de facto eliminate most of the biggest French companies, including AF since the NL are indeed a tax heaven (as is Ireland. Altho by law, no European territory can be qualified as a tax heaven the gvt still worried their aid package would be challenged in court).

Anyway, it's always good to have a little bit of context. I for one, wish AFKL the best, as I am a strong believer in stronger together.


Thanks for setting the record straight. I'm an Air France KLM employee (I do work across the 2 companies), and although the great independence that each entity enjoys can make the cooperation challenging sometimes, the relationship is much deeper than most people believe. Those endless discussions about an AFKL split and all of the nonsense that comes with it are getting tiring.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:24 am

MartijnNL wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM, a question about you signature.

KJFK - EGLL:
Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds
Boeing 747: 6 hours, and 45 minutes


Flying between JFK and LHR usually takes less than 6 hours and 45 minutes. Why was this Boeing 747 so slow? The current record for the type is 4 hours and 56 minutes, set in February of this year.

That was a one-off, with high tail winds. Not the norm.
 
FGITD
Posts: 856
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:59 am

AOMlover wrote:

Thanks for setting the record straight. I'm an Air France KLM employee (I do work across the 2 companies), and although the great independence that each entity enjoys can make the cooperation challenging sometimes, the relationship is much deeper than most people believe. Those endless discussions about an AFKL split and all of the nonsense that comes with it are getting tiring.



But what about the wisdom of this site that dictates "KLM has 737s and AF has a320s, therefore it's a disaster"??!!

I said it in an earlier post, AF and KL are much more integrated than the casual observer would notice. And to that end, much more could be done. But doing so would remove employees from either side, and remove autonomy
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:04 am

MartijnNL wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM, a question about you signature.

KJFK - EGLL:
Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds
Boeing 747: 6 hours, and 45 minutes


Flying between JFK and LHR usually takes less than 6 hours and 45 minutes. Why was this Boeing 747 so slow? The current record for the type is 4 hours and 56 minutes, set in February of this year.

I didn’t know about the 747 record, and the BA site told me a 747 does 6 hours and 45 minutes. I will edit my signature. Thanks for telling me about the 747 record :)
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos