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FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:04 am

MartijnNL wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM, a question about you signature.

KJFK - EGLL:
Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds
Boeing 747: 6 hours, and 45 minutes


Flying between JFK and LHR usually takes less than 6 hours and 45 minutes. Why was this Boeing 747 so slow? The current record for the type is 4 hours and 56 minutes, set in February of this year.

I didn’t know about the 747 record, and the BA site told me a 747 does 6 hours and 45 minutes. I will edit my signature. Thanks for telling me about the 747 record :)
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:30 am

FGITD wrote:
But what about the wisdom of this site that dictates "KLM has 737s and AF has a320s, therefore it's a disaster"??!!

I said it in an earlier post, AF and KL are much more integrated than the casual observer would notice. And to that end, much more could be done. But doing so would remove employees from either side, and remove autonomy



This could be off-topic, but they are working to integrate even more: https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/news/ro ... -year-2019

https://imgur.com/a/uG7D1cY
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1284
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:08 am

AOMlover wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:

I didn' realize KLM was in bad shape in 2004, thank you for sharing that. The Dutch media seem to conveniently forget that fact, and are focussed on AF's strikes, scenario's of AF trying to 'steal' KL's profits and Ben Smith trying to 'seize' control.


People do seem to have very short memories.

In 1996, AF was the 3rd biggest airline in Europe with a 13,2% market share (after BA at #1 and LH at #1) with KL sitting just behind at 11,3%
In 2003, the year of the so-called merger (which actually was an acquisition of KL by AF) AF was #1 in Europe with a 17% market share (with LH then at #2 and BA at #3) while KL had fallen to a 9,6% market share.

In 2001, when most airlines were burning cash, AF posted a net profit of 421 million Euros.

In 2003, AF paid 784 millions Euros to acquire KL, which at the time was 40% over KL's stock value. In fact, on the day the merger was announced, KL's stock when up 12,54% while AF went down 4,16%. KL was loss making and had just been through 2 failed turn around plans.

At the time, AF and KL really complimented each other : AF relied heavily on its domestic market which accounted for 40% of its capacity and was pretty much a point to point airline with "just" 40% of it's passenger in CDG connecting onward while KL was obviously more of an international airline with 60% of its passengers connecting in AMS. AF was very strong in West Africa and South America but weak in Asia with was KL's strongpoint together with East Africa.

Both also had very strong ties with DL & NW who ended up merging themselves.

In 2003, when the 2 airlines merged (although as I said it was more of a takeover, AFKL initially being 81% French owned and 19% Dutch owned with the French government owning 54% of the whole company) it created the biggest airline in the world in terme of revenue (with 20 B$ - AF as a standalone carrier was #6), 2nd biggest (passenger) cargo airline and 3rd biggest airline in terms of passengers carried. The merger also made ST the #1 alliance in terms of passengers carried with a 21% market share.

By 2007, AFKL revenue soared 30% and they became the most profitable airline in the world, posting a 1,2B$ profit this year. In just 3 years, they had achieved a 1/2B$ cost cutting program by cutting overlaping back office positions. Everyone was raving about what a success the whole thing was and it started a phase of much needed consolidation in Europe.

By 2009, things started to go South, with what used to be AF's biggest asset, it's domestic network, becoming a liability, especially with U2's momentum (which AF felt pretty hard on its 2 cash cows, namely Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice where they didn't have to compete with the TGV). When U2 entered the Paris-Marseille market (before redrawing), they ended what was the biggest monopoly market in the world (with about 30 daily AF flights each way). It's also interesting to note that AF was then the biggest operator at LCY, thru WX, which while prestigious, ended up costing them a lot of money (in 2010, AF lost 50 millions Euros just on its LCY network).

One last thing, as I said, in 2001, AF was one of the most profitable airlines in the world...when they were literally on the verge of collaps just 3 years prior in 1998. They had already flirted with bankruptcy in 1993 before that.

One of the reason why KL is now so successful (altho people also forget that KL posted a net loss in 2017 and that while TO has been profitable for the past few years, the same cannot be said for its Dutch counterpart HV, so much so that HV's shares in TO were transferred to AF a few years ago) is because most of AFKL long haul growth has been directed over at AMS in order to avoid French unions and French tax laws. In fact about 40% of France's CAC40 companies maintain subsidiaries of some sorts in The Netherlands. So much so that just last week after announcing that no French companies maintaining subsidiaries in tax heavens would be eligible for State aid, the measure was withdrawn because the Government realized it would de facto eliminate most of the biggest French companies, including AF since the NL are indeed a tax heaven (as is Ireland. Altho by law, no European territory can be qualified as a tax heaven the gvt still worried their aid package would be challenged in court).

Anyway, it's always good to have a little bit of context. I for one, wish AFKL the best, as I am a strong believer in stronger together.


Thanks for setting the record straight. I'm an Air France KLM employee (I do work across the 2 companies), and although the great independence that each entity enjoys can make the cooperation challenging sometimes, the relationship is much deeper than most people believe. Those endless discussions about an AFKL split and all of the nonsense that comes with it are getting tiring.

Nonsense such as loosening ties that the head of the democratically elected KLM works council considers desirable and realistic?
https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/1040 ... air-france
 
fa4af
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:10 am

Jetty wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
I’m Dutch and I honestly don’t know why people here like Pieter Elbers

This part isn’t hard to understand, he’s a charismatic down to earth guy from a simple background who started at KLM as a cargo handling supervisor and worked his way all the way up (unlike the political ‘grand ecole’ cronies usually in charge of AF I might add).



Just as easy to understand should be why it is fair to trust Ben Smith.
Has anyone ever bothered to check his background in the NL?
You could replace the words "Pieter Elbers" by "Ben Smith" and your description of KLM's CEO would suit Ben Smith perfectly.
This is why the man has such strong support here in France and in particular among AFKL staff. Exactly because we are so sick and tired of the usual grande écoles cronies as you call them. We believe he can achieve something impossible in the past. But obviously we need the support of all parties. Not internal distrust stirred by some polical interests, which today come from the Dutch side. When we saw the reaction of the Dutch government increasing its stake without prior warning everyone in Paris thought "merde, here we go again"
But credit has to be given to all parties, Ben Smith, the French government for ounce and Pieter Elbers himself for doing the right thing to calm tensions down.
Hence once again why, given the similarities shared by the two, we don't understand or on the contrary we understand too well the constant argument that one is trying to steal the other's job.
None of that happens between Ben Smith and someone hardly ever mentioned here on A.net, who is the Pieter Elbers of AF. Her name is Anne Rigail and she also started her carrier at Air Inter before joining Orly's customer services.
It is striking how Smith seems to be portrayed as the CEO of AF in the Netherlands. In France, he is the CEO of AFKL. Rigail is the CEO of AF. Along the same lines, here in France, the State aid was given to AFKL. Not just AF. And the Minister of Economy said the Dutch government was finalising its aid to KL. Funny enough, not AFKL. Just KL.

So please give us a break on A.net and let the 3 of them play. They are doing a great job. At least our morale, among AF crews and more generally our colleagues accross the company has hardly ever been better, despite the gloomy circumstances. Of course we are bracing for the aftermath of COVID. But we are confident, generally speaking in the ability of our leaders to fare through. Not sure how the colleagues feel at BA...UA...Norwegian..SAS....and the list goes on...

Once again,
Prettige Koningsdag
Bienvenue à bord de nos avions
Last edited by fa4af on Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:16 am

Jetty wrote:
AOMlover wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:

People do seem to have very short memories.

In 1996, AF was the 3rd biggest airline in Europe with a 13,2% market share (after BA at #1 and LH at #1) with KL sitting just behind at 11,3%
In 2003, the year of the so-called merger (which actually was an acquisition of KL by AF) AF was #1 in Europe with a 17% market share (with LH then at #2 and BA at #3) while KL had fallen to a 9,6% market share.

In 2001, when most airlines were burning cash, AF posted a net profit of 421 million Euros.

In 2003, AF paid 784 millions Euros to acquire KL, which at the time was 40% over KL's stock value. In fact, on the day the merger was announced, KL's stock when up 12,54% while AF went down 4,16%. KL was loss making and had just been through 2 failed turn around plans.

At the time, AF and KL really complimented each other : AF relied heavily on its domestic market which accounted for 40% of its capacity and was pretty much a point to point airline with "just" 40% of it's passenger in CDG connecting onward while KL was obviously more of an international airline with 60% of its passengers connecting in AMS. AF was very strong in West Africa and South America but weak in Asia with was KL's strongpoint together with East Africa.

Both also had very strong ties with DL & NW who ended up merging themselves.

In 2003, when the 2 airlines merged (although as I said it was more of a takeover, AFKL initially being 81% French owned and 19% Dutch owned with the French government owning 54% of the whole company) it created the biggest airline in the world in terme of revenue (with 20 B$ - AF as a standalone carrier was #6), 2nd biggest (passenger) cargo airline and 3rd biggest airline in terms of passengers carried. The merger also made ST the #1 alliance in terms of passengers carried with a 21% market share.

By 2007, AFKL revenue soared 30% and they became the most profitable airline in the world, posting a 1,2B$ profit this year. In just 3 years, they had achieved a 1/2B$ cost cutting program by cutting overlaping back office positions. Everyone was raving about what a success the whole thing was and it started a phase of much needed consolidation in Europe.

By 2009, things started to go South, with what used to be AF's biggest asset, it's domestic network, becoming a liability, especially with U2's momentum (which AF felt pretty hard on its 2 cash cows, namely Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice where they didn't have to compete with the TGV). When U2 entered the Paris-Marseille market (before redrawing), they ended what was the biggest monopoly market in the world (with about 30 daily AF flights each way). It's also interesting to note that AF was then the biggest operator at LCY, thru WX, which while prestigious, ended up costing them a lot of money (in 2010, AF lost 50 millions Euros just on its LCY network).

One last thing, as I said, in 2001, AF was one of the most profitable airlines in the world...when they were literally on the verge of collaps just 3 years prior in 1998. They had already flirted with bankruptcy in 1993 before that.

One of the reason why KL is now so successful (altho people also forget that KL posted a net loss in 2017 and that while TO has been profitable for the past few years, the same cannot be said for its Dutch counterpart HV, so much so that HV's shares in TO were transferred to AF a few years ago) is because most of AFKL long haul growth has been directed over at AMS in order to avoid French unions and French tax laws. In fact about 40% of France's CAC40 companies maintain subsidiaries of some sorts in The Netherlands. So much so that just last week after announcing that no French companies maintaining subsidiaries in tax heavens would be eligible for State aid, the measure was withdrawn because the Government realized it would de facto eliminate most of the biggest French companies, including AF since the NL are indeed a tax heaven (as is Ireland. Altho by law, no European territory can be qualified as a tax heaven the gvt still worried their aid package would be challenged in court).

Anyway, it's always good to have a little bit of context. I for one, wish AFKL the best, as I am a strong believer in stronger together.


Thanks for setting the record straight. I'm an Air France KLM employee (I do work across the 2 companies), and although the great independence that each entity enjoys can make the cooperation challenging sometimes, the relationship is much deeper than most people believe. Those endless discussions about an AFKL split and all of the nonsense that comes with it are getting tiring.

Nonsense such as loosening ties that the head of the democratically elected KLM works council considers desirable and realistic?
https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/1040 ... air-france

I saw something in that article...

In de Franse pers wordt gesproken van baanbehoud bij Air France in ruil voor staatssteun en dat Air France vliegtuigen blijft afnemen bij Airbus. Wij kunnen ons als KLM daar niet aan verbinden', aldus Fucci.

I think I’m very wrong here, but did Fucci basically say KLM doesn’t want Airbus aircraft? I’m not trying to turn this into a fleet thread, we’ve already discussed those things a million times...
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
FlyingHollander
Posts: 429
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:37 am

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
In de Franse pers wordt gesproken van baanbehoud bij Air France in ruil voor staatssteun en dat Air France vliegtuigen blijft afnemen bij Airbus. Wij kunnen ons als KLM daar niet aan verbinden', aldus Fucci.

I think I’m very wrong here, but did Fucci basically say KLM doesn’t want Airbus aircraft? I’m not trying to turn this into a fleet thread, we’ve already discussed those things a million times...

It says KLM can't make that same commitment. So they don't want to rule out job cuts and/or buying Boeing. In the greater context of the article KLM doesn't blindly want to follow Air France and integrate even further.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:49 am

Personally, and as a a very frequent traveller on both, I love both airlines and love the fact they are culturally distinct... and you really get that feeling when you fly both. I have never had a problem with AF cabin crews (maybe only once...but he acquiesced in the end) nor with KLM ones. Both airlines' personnel, particularly AF, have gone way beyond the call of duty to help me out. Unfortunately cannot say the same about LH/LX or BA/IB crews (both of which I also fly frequently as my top tier elite status in Executive Club and Miles and More attest). Just personal, as are all people's opinions on this board. And if you ever had the chance to fly AF Première (particularly the B773) or visited the Première lounge in Roissy... flying doesn't get better than that hands down ANYWHERE!
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:15 pm

I'm getting tired of the Dutch public screaming (not here on A.net but in general) that we should 'rescue KLM from Air France'. There is a far right nationalistic movement (also) in The Netherlands with an extremely dumb unrealistic vision of our country. They believe The Netherlands should leave the EU, they believe the Rotterdam Harbor can survive without the EU, they believe KLM can survive without Air France and they believe we should get our former currency (the Guilder) back. Like what the heck is that going to solve?

The KLM of yesteryear doesn't exist anymore. KLM does not survive on its own, it couldn't survive on its own in 2003 and it can't in 2020. People are looking at an independent KLM through nostalgic eyes, which are not realistic eyes. Just like we tend to long back to the days of glamorous air travel in the Jet Age, but completely forgetting that flying in the jet age was not as safe as it is today, not as cheap as it is today, not as comfortable as it is today and so on.

KLM was on the brink of bankruptcy when they merged with Air France. The two airlines are now so well integrated that, first of all, undoing the merger would costs millions of euros and billions of headaches to achieve, secondly it would kill load factors because KLM fills AF planes and AF fills KLM planes, thirdly an independent KLM outside of Skyteam would be disastrous for AMS because for instance Delta would immediately consolidate its European hub at CDG and fourthly: who can KLM merge with? The European Commission will never allow KL to merge with LH/IAG or SAS for competitive reasons.

Imagine KLM joining the LH group, then LH would own the German, Dutch, Belgian, Swiss and Austrian market. Absolutely, totally, completely impossible.

And what people also tend to forget by suggesting adding KLM to IAG: Brexit! The Brexit still has not happend, and if BoJo and the EU can't fix a deal before 31/12/2020 all flights to and from Britain (or what's left of the flights) will come to a screeching halt on 1/1/2021 because the UK will break away from the EU in a no-deal Brexit.

My final point is that the Dutch Government owns a 14% stake in AFKLM and a 6% stake in KLM. So it is also politically impossible to simply let KLM break away from Air France, no minister wants to carry the responsibility of the death of an icon on his shoulders.

So can we please end this discussion. Air France-KLM will remain Air France-KLM, with all its quirks, shortcomings and successes. Period.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:42 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
I'm getting tired of the Dutch public screaming (not here on A.net but in general) that we should 'rescue KLM from Air France'. There is a far right nationalistic movement (also) in The Netherlands with an extremely dumb unrealistic vision of our country. They believe The Netherlands should leave the EU, they believe the Rotterdam Harbor can survive without the EU, they believe KLM can survive without Air France and they believe we should get our former currency (the Guilder) back. Like what the heck is that going to solve?

The KLM of yesteryear doesn't exist anymore. KLM does not survive on its own, it couldn't survive on its own in 2003 and it can't in 2020. People are looking at an independent KLM through nostalgic eyes, which are not realistic eyes. Just like we tend to long back to the days of glamorous air travel in the Jet Age, but completely forgetting that flying in the jet age was not as safe as it is today, not as cheap as it is today, not as comfortable as it is today and so on.

KLM was on the brink of bankruptcy when they merged with Air France. The two airlines are now so well integrated that, first of all, undoing the merger would costs millions of euros and billions of headaches to achieve, secondly it would kill load factors because KLM fills AF planes and AF fills KLM planes, thirdly an independent KLM outside of Skyteam would be disastrous for AMS because for instance Delta would immediately consolidate its European hub at CDG and fourthly: who can KLM merge with? The European Commission will never allow KL to merge with LH/IAG or SAS for competitive reasons.

Imagine KLM joining the LH group, then LH would own the German, Dutch, Belgian, Swiss and Austrian market. Absolutely, totally, completely impossible.

And what people also tend to forget by suggesting adding KLM to IAG: Brexit! The Brexit still has not happend, and if BoJo and the EU can't fix a deal before 31/12/2020 all flights to and from Britain (or what's left of the flights) will come to a screeching halt on 1/1/2021 because the UK will break away from the EU in a no-deal Brexit.

My final point is that the Dutch Government owns a 14% stake in AFKLM and a 6% stake in KLM. So it is also politically impossible to simply let KLM break away from Air France, no minister wants to carry the responsibility of the death of an icon on his shoulders.

So can we please end this discussion. Air France-KLM will remain Air France-KLM, with all its quirks, shortcomings and successes. Period.


Denmark has no euro and does well, so does Norway and England and Switserland and Sweden.
The euro is not needed at all to do well and trade with other nations. Thats a fact.

Also, KLM outside of the holding with AF does not mean KLM must be “alone”. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.
KLM can keep working like they do with AF and Delta.
KLM out of Skyteam, KLM stopping the JV with Delta are things that you make up yourself.

And its certainly not certain that when the landscape changes perhaps after corona things will be possible that you now call will “never” be possible.

You make al lot of personal assumptions.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:31 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.


Actually DL owns 8.8% of AFKL.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:38 pm

Amsterdam wrote:

Denmark has no euro and does well, so does Norway and England and Switserland and Sweden.
The euro is not needed at all to do well and trade with other nations. Thats a fact.


That's not a fact. Norway is part of the EEA, Denmark and Sweden are EU, Switzerland is Schengen and Britain... yeah... Britain... ehrm...

You misquoted me, cause I was talking about the people pleading for a 'Nexit'.

Amsterdam wrote:
Also, KLM outside of the holding with AF does not mean KLM must be “alone”. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.
KLM can keep working like they do with AF and Delta.


Why would they break up with AF and then continue cooperating with them? What's the whole point of breaking up then? It's the opposite of selling your aircraft to a leasing company to earn some quick cash and then leasing them back (like United did few weeks ago), only this time there's nothing to lease back and you don't earn any money. You lose money.

Thibault973 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.


Actually DL owns 8.8% of AFKL.


:checkmark: Thank you!

Amsterdam wrote:
You make al lot of personal assumptions.


That's the purpose of a forum, isn't it. To give one's perspective on things.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:26 pm

French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.

Things like this have got nothing to do with running a company. They will burn through those 7 billion euros very fast with those conditions. They will probably need a lot more money. But hey if the French government wants to put even more money in AF then it’s their choice of course.

The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.
 
sekant
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 10:07 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:18 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.

Things like this have got nothing to do with running a company. They will burn through those 7 billion euros very fast with those conditions. They will probably need a lot more money. But hey if the French government wants to put even more money in AF then it’s their choice of course.


Care to provide any link to any media???? Because the only thing that has been widely reported in the French media is that the support has been linked to a) improved rentability, and b) improved environmental performance. Also because this trope of the French executive pressuring Air France to buy Airbus has been peddled again and again on A.net for years even though it is disproven by the make-up of AF fleet.

Amsterdam wrote:
The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.


What is in fact crazy is that the French government provides support to AF-KLM and the Dutch government to KLM. One more instance of the venture working only in one direction and to the benefit of the Dutch side that, on the top of it, keeps whining.
 
Blerg
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:19 pm

I highly doubt they will block AF from buying any Boeing planes in the future, maybe this is a tactic to have Transavia switch to Airbus aircraft.
 
mig17
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:24 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.

Since you are talking of straight theft, are you familiar with "Euro-mark" and tax haven right inside the EU?
Country like Germany or the Netherlands are benefits from the BCE policy.

According to this study ( https://www.cep.eu/fileadmin/user_uploa ... winner.pdf ) the impact of the BCE policy against any inflation and the lack of fiscal standardisation is costing dearly country like France and Italy while the Netherlands and espacially Germany are thriving. So the Netherland and Germany being against Eurobonds in the curent situation is indeed straight theft and a verry bad sign for Europe.

Back on AF-KLM, if AF and KLM are indeed two separate airlines, since AF baught KLM there is only one olding possessing the shares of both airlines. A "breakup" is not possible. A third party would have to buy KLM out. So will the Netherlands buy KLM out? Nationalizing it taking advantage of their lower interest rate?
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:31 pm

sekant wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.

Things like this have got nothing to do with running a company. They will burn through those 7 billion euros very fast with those conditions. They will probably need a lot more money. But hey if the French government wants to put even more money in AF then it’s their choice of course.


Care to provide any link to any media???? Because the only thing that has been widely reported in the French media is that the support has been linked to a) improved rentability, and b) improved environmental performance. Also because this trope of the French executive pressuring Air France to buy Airbus has been peddled again and again on A.net for years even though it is disproven by the make-up of AF fleet.

Amsterdam wrote:
The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.


What is in fact crazy is that the French government provides support to AF-KLM and the Dutch government to KLM. One more instance of the venture working only in one direction and to the benefit of the Dutch side that, on the top of it, keeps whining.


I dont speak french and I dont know where to look for it, but the staff counsel of KLM has said that in dutch:

https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/1040 ... air-france

“ Regarding the integration initiated under CEO Smith, Fucci says that the Works Council 'does not like such movements in the coming period'. Fucci says he cannot imagine further integration when both companies have 'different game rules' and such large amounts are involved. "The French press speaks of job preservation at Air France in exchange for state aid and Air France continues to purchase aircraft from Airbus. As KLM, we cannot commit to that, 'says Fucci.”

I dont know. Maybe a french anet member knows where the source is. Or if it does not exist.
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:32 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.


Where have you read that ??

The French media actually reported that AF would soon implement a voluntary redundancy scheme, as a first step.

And regarding the purchase of Airbus aircraft: are you aware that Air France operates 70 Boeing 777s ? Together with KLM, AFKL is actually the 2nd largest 777 operator.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:34 pm

mig17 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.

Since you are talking of straight theft, are you familiar with "Euro-mark" and tax haven right inside the EU?
Country like Germany or the Netherlands are benefits from the BCE policy.

According to this study ( https://www.cep.eu/fileadmin/user_uploa ... winner.pdf ) the impact of the BCE policy against any inflation and the lack of fiscal standardisation is costing dearly country like France and Italy while the Netherlands and espacially Germany are thriving. So the Netherland and Germany being against Eurobonds in the curent situation is indeed straight theft and a verry bad sign for Europe.

Back on AF-KLM, if AF and KLM are indeed two separate airlines, since AF baught KLM there is only one olding possessing the shares of both airlines. A "breakup" is not possible. A third party would have to buy KLM out. So will the Netherlands buy KLM out? Nationalizing it taking advantage of their lower interest rate?


Those countries can also do what Holland and Germany do.
 
sekant
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 10:07 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:43 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
sekant wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.

Things like this have got nothing to do with running a company. They will burn through those 7 billion euros very fast with those conditions. They will probably need a lot more money. But hey if the French government wants to put even more money in AF then it’s their choice of course.


Care to provide any link to any media???? Because the only thing that has been widely reported in the French media is that the support has been linked to a) improved rentability, and b) improved environmental performance. Also because this trope of the French executive pressuring Air France to buy Airbus has been peddled again and again on A.net for years even though it is disproven by the make-up of AF fleet.

Amsterdam wrote:
The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.


What is in fact crazy is that the French government provides support to AF-KLM and the Dutch government to KLM. One more instance of the venture working only in one direction and to the benefit of the Dutch side that, on the top of it, keeps whining.


I dont speak french and I dont know where to look for it, but the staff counsel of KLM has said that in dutch:

https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/1040 ... air-france

“ Regarding the integration initiated under CEO Smith, Fucci says that the Works Council 'does not like such movements in the coming period'. Fucci says he cannot imagine further integration when both companies have 'different game rules' and such large amounts are involved. "The French press speaks of job preservation at Air France in exchange for state aid and Air France continues to purchase aircraft from Airbus. As KLM, we cannot commit to that, 'says Fucci.”

I dont know. Maybe a french anet member knows where the source is. Or if it does not exist.


I am a non-French French speaker and there is nothing of the sort in any French media, as other and I have indicated, the support by the French government to AF is linked to improved rentability and that means to let go some staff.

And you may want to rely on more serious sources for your information than a trade unionist with an anti-AF axe to grind.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:50 pm

sekant wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
sekant wrote:

Care to provide any link to any media???? Because the only thing that has been widely reported in the French media is that the support has been linked to a) improved rentability, and b) improved environmental performance. Also because this trope of the French executive pressuring Air France to buy Airbus has been peddled again and again on A.net for years even though it is disproven by the make-up of AF fleet.



What is in fact crazy is that the French government provides support to AF-KLM and the Dutch government to KLM. One more instance of the venture working only in one direction and to the benefit of the Dutch side that, on the top of it, keeps whining.


I dont speak french and I dont know where to look for it, but the staff counsel of KLM has said that in dutch:

https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/1040 ... air-france

“ Regarding the integration initiated under CEO Smith, Fucci says that the Works Council 'does not like such movements in the coming period'. Fucci says he cannot imagine further integration when both companies have 'different game rules' and such large amounts are involved. "The French press speaks of job preservation at Air France in exchange for state aid and Air France continues to purchase aircraft from Airbus. As KLM, we cannot commit to that, 'says Fucci.”

I dont know. Maybe a french anet member knows where the source is. Or if it does not exist.


I am a non-French French speaker and there is nothing of the sort in any French media, as other and I have indicated, the support by the French government to AF is linked to improved rentability and that means to let go some staff.

And you may want to rely on more serious sources for your information than a trade unionist with an anti-AF axe to grind.


That would mean that that guy has made it up.
Maybe. I dont know. It would be dishonest and strange though.
Anyway, only voluntary staff reduction will probably not be enough by far. And if the remaining staff stays as expensive as it is, then even reducing staff wont be enough.
But who knows what happens.
Maybe a vaccin comes soon and things get better faster than expected.
 
AOMlover
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:51 pm

https://www.liberation.fr/france/2020/0 ... ou_1786487

This source (an article from a reputable French newspaper) actually mentions that that “the (French) Minister of the Economy indicated to Libération that no guarantee of non-recourse to compulsory redundancies was requested (by the French state) as a condition to the loans”. So Mr Fucci seems to be quite misinformed.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:55 pm

sekant wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
sekant wrote:

Care to provide any link to any media???? Because the only thing that has been widely reported in the French media is that the support has been linked to a) improved rentability, and b) improved environmental performance. Also because this trope of the French executive pressuring Air France to buy Airbus has been peddled again and again on A.net for years even though it is disproven by the make-up of AF fleet.



What is in fact crazy is that the French government provides support to AF-KLM and the Dutch government to KLM. One more instance of the venture working only in one direction and to the benefit of the Dutch side that, on the top of it, keeps whining.


I dont speak french and I dont know where to look for it, but the staff counsel of KLM has said that in dutch:

https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/economie/1040 ... air-france

“ Regarding the integration initiated under CEO Smith, Fucci says that the Works Council 'does not like such movements in the coming period'. Fucci says he cannot imagine further integration when both companies have 'different game rules' and such large amounts are involved. "The French press speaks of job preservation at Air France in exchange for state aid and Air France continues to purchase aircraft from Airbus. As KLM, we cannot commit to that, 'says Fucci.”

I dont know. Maybe a french anet member knows where the source is. Or if it does not exist.


I am a non-French French speaker and there is nothing of the sort in any French media, as other and I have indicated, the support by the French government to AF is linked to improved rentability and that means to let go some staff.

And you may want to rely on more serious sources for your information than a trade unionist with an anti-AF axe to grind.

He isn’t a trade unionist. In The Netherlands the workforce is represented by elected members who work at the company themselves, professional activists from the unions play a much smaller role than in other countries.
 
mig17
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
The crazy thing is that the French also want eurobonds just like Italy, so they can lend money cheaper to for example put in AF and Alitalia. And that means Holland will have to pay more interest than it does now on its own loans aka pay for others countries to put money into AF and Alitalia and a million other things etc.
Eurobonds are straight theft.

Since you are talking of straight theft, are you familiar with "Euro-mark" and tax haven right inside the EU?
Country like Germany or the Netherlands are benefits from the BCE policy.

According to this study ( https://www.cep.eu/fileadmin/user_uploa ... winner.pdf ) the impact of the BCE policy against any inflation and the lack of fiscal standardisation is costing dearly country like France and Italy while the Netherlands and espacially Germany are thriving. So the Netherland and Germany being against Eurobonds in the curent situation is indeed straight theft and a verry bad sign for Europe.

Back on AF-KLM, if AF and KLM are indeed two separate airlines, since AF baught KLM there is only one olding possessing the shares of both airlines. A "breakup" is not possible. A third party would have to buy KLM out. So will the Netherlands buy KLM out? Nationalizing it taking advantage of their lower interest rate?


Those countries can also do what Holland and Germany do.

Not being teamplayers?
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
mig17
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:05 pm

Where can we find an official KLM shareolder list like that for AF-KLM (https://www.boursorama.com/cours/societe/profil/1rPAF/) ?
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:19 pm

mig17 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Since you are talking of straight theft, are you familiar with "Euro-mark" and tax haven right inside the EU?
Country like Germany or the Netherlands are benefits from the BCE policy.

According to this study ( https://www.cep.eu/fileadmin/user_uploa ... winner.pdf ) the impact of the BCE policy against any inflation and the lack of fiscal standardisation is costing dearly country like France and Italy while the Netherlands and espacially Germany are thriving. So the Netherland and Germany being against Eurobonds in the curent situation is indeed straight theft and a verry bad sign for Europe.

Back on AF-KLM, if AF and KLM are indeed two separate airlines, since AF baught KLM there is only one olding possessing the shares of both airlines. A "breakup" is not possible. A third party would have to buy KLM out. So will the Netherlands buy KLM out? Nationalizing it taking advantage of their lower interest rate?


Those countries can also do what Holland and Germany do.

Not being teamplayers?


Official stats:

“Netherlands largest net contributor EU this century”

https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2016/50/n ... is-century

If thats not being a team player then I dont know what is
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:22 pm

Blerg wrote:
maybe this is a tactic to have Transavia switch to Airbus aircraft.

But HV says there is no way they’ll be going for any Airbus, and if TO would operate Airbuses, it would be inefficient in my opinion because HV would still operate Boeings. And since the AF-KL fleets are going to be streamlined in the future, I don’t think HV going with Boeing and TO going with Airbus is a possibility. If TO is going to operate Airbuses, then it would make sense to switch HV to Airbus.
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
Blerg
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:34 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Blerg wrote:
maybe this is a tactic to have Transavia switch to Airbus aircraft.

But HV says there is no way they’ll be going for any Airbus, and if TO would operate Airbuses, it would be inefficient in my opinion because HV would still operate Boeings. And since the AF-KL fleets are going to be streamlined in the future, I don’t think HV going with Boeing and TO going with Airbus is a possibility. If TO is going to operate Airbuses, then it would make sense to switch HV to Airbus.


I am not saying what they might be asking makes sense, I am just pointing out what might be one of their spheres of interest. AF already operates mostly Airbus aircraft so it's not like hey have much to change.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:57 pm

Blerg wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Blerg wrote:
maybe this is a tactic to have Transavia switch to Airbus aircraft.

But HV says there is no way they’ll be going for any Airbus, and if TO would operate Airbuses, it would be inefficient in my opinion because HV would still operate Boeings. And since the AF-KL fleets are going to be streamlined in the future, I don’t think HV going with Boeing and TO going with Airbus is a possibility. If TO is going to operate Airbuses, then it would make sense to switch HV to Airbus.


I am not saying what they might be asking makes sense, I am just pointing out what might be one of their spheres of interest. AF already operates mostly Airbus aircraft so it's not like hey have much to change.

Okay. Are we talking about HV or TO, or both?
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
mig17
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:12 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:

Those countries can also do what Holland and Germany do.

Not being teamplayers?


Official stats:

“Netherlands largest net contributor EU this century”

https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2016/50/n ... is-century

If thats not being a team player then I dont know what is

A net contribution of 3.5 billion to the European budget? Oxfam estimates that the CAC40 (the fourty larger french comagny) alone doesn't pay around 13 billions € of taxes in France due to fiscale optimisation in the Netherland. Around 7 billions are also lost in France and 27 billions in the entire EU due to American compagnies fiscal evasion in the Netherland for business they have in Schengen. And of course all that is very lucrative for the Netherland at the expense of other state member.

And to come back to the topic, when the dutch government bought AF-KLM shares last year, it was not in the interest of the group which was more what Ben Smith plan was bringing but to weigh in favor of KLM developpement in order to preserve job at Schiphol.

Does someone know where can we find an official KLM shareholder list?
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:22 pm

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... france-klm

The Air France-KLM holding company, in turn, owns 49 percent of KLM's shares. The other 51 percent is in Dutch hands in connection with the retention of landing rights. The Dutch state has a 5.9 percent interest in KLM, Stichting Administratiekantoor KLM (SAK I, 32.9 percent) and the Stichting Administratiekantoor Cumulative Preference Shares C KLM (SAK II, 11.3 percent) jointly own 44.2 percent . Less than one percent is owned by private investors.


I dont have an official airline source for this but I know info is correct.
 
mig17
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:25 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/wie-zijn-de-aandeelhouders-van-air-france-klm

The Air France-KLM holding company, in turn, owns 49 percent of KLM's shares. The other 51 percent is in Dutch hands in connection with the retention of landing rights. The Dutch state has a 5.9 percent interest in KLM, Stichting Administratiekantoor KLM (SAK I, 32.9 percent) and the Stichting Administratiekantoor Cumulative Preference Shares C KLM (SAK II, 11.3 percent) jointly own 44.2 percent . Less than one percent is owned by private investors.


I dont have an official airline source for this but I know info is correct.

Thanks
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
Blerg
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:46 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Blerg wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
But HV says there is no way they’ll be going for any Airbus, and if TO would operate Airbuses, it would be inefficient in my opinion because HV would still operate Boeings. And since the AF-KL fleets are going to be streamlined in the future, I don’t think HV going with Boeing and TO going with Airbus is a possibility. If TO is going to operate Airbuses, then it would make sense to switch HV to Airbus.


I am not saying what they might be asking makes sense, I am just pointing out what might be one of their spheres of interest. AF already operates mostly Airbus aircraft so it's not like hey have much to change.

Okay. Are we talking about HV or TO, or both?


I am talking about TO though I doubt the French government knows there is a difference between the two. I think they believe Transavia is one company based in Paris and run by AF.
 
Eikie
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:59 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/wie-zijn-de-aandeelhouders-van-air-france-klm

The Air France-KLM holding company, in turn, owns 49 percent of KLM's shares. The other 51 percent is in Dutch hands in connection with the retention of landing rights. The Dutch state has a 5.9 percent interest in KLM, Stichting Administratiekantoor KLM (SAK I, 32.9 percent) and the Stichting Administratiekantoor Cumulative Preference Shares C KLM (SAK II, 11.3 percent) jointly own 44.2 percent . Less than one percent is owned by private investors.


I dont have an official airline source for this but I know info is correct.
You are indeed correct.
 
Jetty
Topic Author
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:01 pm

sekant wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.

Things like this have got nothing to do with running a company. They will burn through those 7 billion euros very fast with those conditions. They will probably need a lot more money. But hey if the French government wants to put even more money in AF then it’s their choice of course.


Care to provide any link to any media???? Because the only thing that has been widely reported in the French media is that the support has been linked to a) improved rentability, and b) improved environmental performance. Also because this trope of the French executive pressuring Air France to buy Airbus has been peddled again and again on A.net for years even though it is disproven by the make-up of AF fleet.

It's very much proven now.

The French government’s financial support of Air France comes with the expectation that the airline keeps buying planes from Airbus, Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire said on Wednesday.
https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SP6N2BO01Z

This is the kind of internal French politics that hurt competitiveness and KL/the Dutch don't want to be attached to.

sekant wrote:
And you may want to rely on more serious sources for your information than a trade unionist with an anti-AF axe to grind.

- Trade unionist X
- Axe to grind X
- Serious source V
 
mig17
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:51 pm

Bruno Le Maire, french finance minister said about Air France (in french https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... rs-1199282) that the massive support they were receiving comes with two commitments from Air France :
The first one is to restore competitiveness and turn profitable again.
The second one is to be more eco-friendly and become an exemple in CO2 emission reduction before 2025 by cutting all domestic flights where the TGV also goes in less than 2h30, by reaching the use of 2% bio-fuel and by keep renewing the fleet with more fuel efficient planes.

He also said about Airbus (also in french https://www.zonebourse.com/AIR-FRANCE-K ... -30493038/) that France was ready to support massively Airbus and it was already the case through Air France which is expected to keep buying new Airbus planes with some of the help it is going to receive and he was not hiding it.

Nowhere he mentionned Air France can't fire / reduce staff and what is striking is he didn't speak once of KLM or the AF-KLM group.
Last edited by mig17 on Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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adambrau
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:00 pm

sekant wrote:
French media is writing that AF is not allowed to fire staff if they want help from the government. And it must keep buying airbussen.

Things like this have got nothing to do with running a company. They will burn through those 7 billion euros very fast with those conditions. They will probably need a lot more money. But hey if the French government wants to put even more money in AF then it’s their choice of course.


As an AirFrance employee it's good to hear - however realistic it is. In terms of fleet though aren't we (or weren't we) moving toward the A350 family for longhaul and A220 for shorthaul anyway?
JFK Friendly
 
Blerg
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 am

So what routes will have to be cut? Where does the TGV go in less than 2.5 hours? Lyon?
 
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MrBren
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:38 am

Blerg wrote:
So what routes will have to be cut? Where does the TGV go in less than 2.5 hours? Lyon?


Image
 
olle
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:08 am

nicode wrote:
French are bad people.
Dutch are wonderfull people.
AF is a bad airline.
KL is a very good airline.
IAG is very good, and AFKL bad.

Always the same thing on a.net.



That is 60% of cheap discussions from some people on this topic, with no valid arguments...
And the revenge of IAG with DL/Latam is to have KLM ? And what about AirEuropa ?

I thought DL wanted a more exclusive relationship with some ST members (DL with AM-KE-AF-KL-WS-MU) with strenghen relationship with luggage allowance, seats allowance, restrictive tickets...


Do not mention holland in south part of Europe right now. The brand has got a major hit ;-)
 
olle
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:18 am

MrBren wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what routes will have to be cut? Where does the TGV go in less than 2.5 hours? Lyon?


Image



This is partly true.

I travel frequent Stockholm Berlin, Stockholm wofsburg, Stockholm Hannover, Stockholm Munchen etc.

I live high traffic 1 hour from Arlanda Stockholm airport. Stockholm Berlin, with air. Stockholm Wolfsburg considering that I anyway need to leave the night before the meeting, I can work on the train, and door to door i takes 3 hours more. Stockholm Hannover is similar.

South to Munchen, Barcelona Paris etc is another story. By air.

Holidays to my apartment in Spain, we really consider to backpack in he summer holiday. We like to stay a night in Paris barcelona and not only on the beach in alicante when we have time.

And this is before new bridges over femarn in denmark and new rail stockholm copenhagen.
 
Coexstud
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:53 am

Would klm include Transylvania Airlines too if they go their own way with BA tie up ?
 
Jomar777
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:19 am

PM wrote:
Ciel wrote:
Some people here seem to wish KLM belongs to IAG.

IAG is already huge in 3 countries. In Spain, Iberia dominates by far the market. In the UK, with the bankruptcy of FlyBe, and the near collapse of Virgin Atlantic, BA will dominate even more the market.

And I am not even talking about Level and Vueling, which have some market shares in Austria, Italy, and France.

I am certainly biased towards AF, but I don't think it would be beneficial at all for customers to have a gargantuan company like IAG, if it acquires KLM.

And AF don't dominate France? And LH don't dominate Germany?


Actually, LH dominates Germany AND Switzerland AND Austria AND Belgium... but it is a good point you make
 
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PM
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:23 am

adambrau wrote:
sekant wrote:
In terms of fleet though aren't we (or weren't we) moving toward the A350 family for longhaul and A220 for shorthaul anyway?


Are you forgetting a fleet of 787s?
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:42 am

PM wrote:
adambrau wrote:
sekant wrote:
In terms of fleet though aren't we (or weren't we) moving toward the A350 family for longhaul and A220 for shorthaul anyway?


Are you forgetting a fleet of 787s?

AF doesn't have any 787s on order (any more). They still have 10 787s which isn't large enough a fleet to have a common type rating for the AF pilots, they just won't have enough practise with the 787s. So AF had a decision to make, order additional 787s as A332 replacement or transfer the 787s to KLM. Ordering new aircraft is now out of the question of course.

So eventually AF's longhaul fleet will most likely be A359 and 77W I expect.
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PM
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:59 am

frigatebird wrote:
PM wrote:
adambrau wrote:


Are you forgetting a fleet of 787s?

AF doesn't have any 787s on order (any more). They still have 10 787s which isn't large enough a fleet to have a common type rating for the AF pilots, they just won't have enough practise with the 787s. So AF had a decision to make, order additional 787s as A332 replacement or transfer the 787s to KLM. Ordering new aircraft is now out of the question of course.

So eventually AF's longhaul fleet will most likely be A359 and 77W I expect.

Yes, it's (so far) a small fleet. There was a suggestion a while back that AF would get all the A350s and KL would get all the 787s. What'll happen now is anyone's guess. AF got that top-up order in for A350s just in time. ;)
 
mig17
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:23 am

PM wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
PM wrote:

Are you forgetting a fleet of 787s?

AF doesn't have any 787s on order (any more). They still have 10 787s which isn't large enough a fleet to have a common type rating for the AF pilots, they just won't have enough practise with the 787s. So AF had a decision to make, order additional 787s as A332 replacement or transfer the 787s to KLM. Ordering new aircraft is now out of the question of course.

So eventually AF's longhaul fleet will most likely be A359 and 77W I expect.

Yes, it's (so far) a small fleet. There was a suggestion a while back that AF would get all the A350s and KL would get all the 787s. What'll happen now is anyone's guess. AF got that top-up order in for A350s just in time. ;)


I maybe mistaken but the last 787-9 hasn't been delivered to AirFrance yet and is now on stand-by until further notice. After that, AirFrance will have only A350-900 and A220-300 on order. KLM has 787-9 /-10 and 190-E2 on order.

AirFrance has already announced that 6 A380 and 1/3 of the A320 fleet (all A319 I think) will not fly again. With A350 still comming, the A340 will also go. What about A332, 789, 77E and 77W? No news about Transavia and hop either.

On KLM side do we know what is happening?
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airbuster
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:47 am

mig17 wrote:
PM wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
AF doesn't have any 787s on order (any more). They still have 10 787s which isn't large enough a fleet to have a common type rating for the AF pilots, they just won't have enough practise with the 787s. So AF had a decision to make, order additional 787s as A332 replacement or transfer the 787s to KLM. Ordering new aircraft is now out of the question of course.

So eventually AF's longhaul fleet will most likely be A359 and 77W I expect.

Yes, it's (so far) a small fleet. There was a suggestion a while back that AF would get all the A350s and KL would get all the 787s. What'll happen now is anyone's guess. AF got that top-up order in for A350s just in time. ;)


I maybe mistaken but the last 787-9 hasn't been delivered to AirFrance yet and is now on stand-by until further notice. After that, AirFrance will have only A350-900 and A220-300 on order. KLM has 787-9 /-10 and 190-E2 on order.

AirFrance has already announced that 6 A380 and 1/3 of the A320 fleet (all A319 I think) will not fly again. With A350 still comming, the A340 will also go. What about A332, 789, 77E and 77W? No news about Transavia and hop either.

On KLM side do we know what is happening?


The only rumor I heard was that some leases on the KL A330’s have just recently been extended to 2026. That would raise some eyebrows if correct.
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:53 am

mig17 wrote:

I maybe mistaken but the last 787-9 hasn't been delivered to AirFrance yet and is now on stand-by until further notice. After that, AirFrance will have only A350-900 and A220-300 on order. KLM has 787-9 /-10 and 190-E2 on order.

Technically you're correct, the 10th 787 hasn't entered AF's fleet yet.
Now that we are talking about technicalities, KL has E195-E2s on order not E190-E2s ;)

mig17 wrote:

AirFrance has already announced that 6 A380 and 1/3 of the A320 fleet (all A319 I think) will not fly again. With A350 still comming, the A340 will also go. What about A332, 789, 77E and 77W? No news about Transavia and hop either.

On KLM side do we know what is happening?


The pax 747s have left the fleet except 2 combis doing a few cargo only shuttles. All A330s are grounded and some speculate they may not return, but nothing official. There is also speculation all KL aircraft which are on lease will be returned after leases expire.

PM wrote:
Yes, it's (so far) a small fleet. There was a suggestion a while back that AF would get all the A350s and KL would get all the 787s. What'll happen now is anyone's guess. AF got that top-up order in for A350s just in time. ;)


Well AF will definitely get all A350s. Whether the AF 787s will go to KL, I think so yes, in a few years time.
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:57 am

airbuster wrote:

The only rumor I heard was that some leases on the KL A330’s have just recently been extended to 2026. That would raise some eyebrows if correct.


Oh wow that's new to me. But good news for you if correct! :highfive: And for passengers too of course.

Before the current crisis plans were to have the A330s phased out by 2025.
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Dmoney
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Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:39 pm

The Usual anti-union nonsense from people on here. AF is profitable so if I was told to take a pay cut or worse working conditions I'd tell them to go to hell aswell. Somehow capital is entitled to full freedom of movement but workers aren't allowed to look out for their own interests. If management wants to get paid the big bucks they actually need to do a good job, its not America.

AF does have weak profitability due to an incredible high speed rail network in a country the right size for it to be a real option. City centre to city centre with the space onboard to get real work done. Plus ferocious competition from U2. IAG airlines operate in more benign environments with the exception of are Lingua. Given the recession I'd say unions will have to give some ground but Transavia and HOP have management fairly well positioned.

AF needs to improve profitability but it's fine, it's just impotent whining from some wannabe middle manager in the junior partner in KLM. Nobody forced them to sell themselves to air France.

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