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Dmoney
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:53 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:41 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
I'm getting tired of the Dutch public screaming (not here on A.net but in general) that we should 'rescue KLM from Air France'. There is a far right nationalistic movement (also) in The Netherlands with an extremely dumb unrealistic vision of our country. They believe The Netherlands should leave the EU, they believe the Rotterdam Harbor can survive without the EU, they believe KLM can survive without Air France and they believe we should get our former currency (the Guilder) back. Like what the heck is that going to solve?

The KLM of yesteryear doesn't exist anymore. KLM does not survive on its own, it couldn't survive on its own in 2003 and it can't in 2020. People are looking at an independent KLM through nostalgic eyes, which are not realistic eyes. Just like we tend to long back to the days of glamorous air travel in the Jet Age, but completely forgetting that flying in the jet age was not as safe as it is today, not as cheap as it is today, not as comfortable as it is today and so on.

KLM was on the brink of bankruptcy when they merged with Air France. The two airlines are now so well integrated that, first of all, undoing the merger would costs millions of euros and billions of headaches to achieve, secondly it would kill load factors because KLM fills AF planes and AF fills KLM planes, thirdly an independent KLM outside of Skyteam would be disastrous for AMS because for instance Delta would immediately consolidate its European hub at CDG and fourthly: who can KLM merge with? The European Commission will never allow KL to merge with LH/IAG or SAS for competitive reasons.

Imagine KLM joining the LH group, then LH would own the German, Dutch, Belgian, Swiss and Austrian market. Absolutely, totally, completely impossible.

And what people also tend to forget by suggesting adding KLM to IAG: Brexit! The Brexit still has not happend, and if BoJo and the EU can't fix a deal before 31/12/2020 all flights to and from Britain (or what's left of the flights) will come to a screeching halt on 1/1/2021 because the UK will break away from the EU in a no-deal Brexit.

My final point is that the Dutch Government owns a 14% stake in AFKLM and a 6% stake in KLM. So it is also politically impossible to simply let KLM break away from Air France, no minister wants to carry the responsibility of the death of an icon on his shoulders.

So can we please end this discussion. Air France-KLM will remain Air France-KLM, with all its quirks, shortcomings and successes. Period.


Denmark has no euro and does well, so does Norway and England and Switserland and Sweden.
The euro is not needed at all to do well and trade with other nations. Thats a fact.

Also, KLM outside of the holding with AF does not mean KLM must be “alone”. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.
KLM can keep working like they do with AF and Delta.
KLM out of Skyteam, KLM stopping the JV with Delta are things that you make up yourself.

And its certainly not certain that when the landscape changes perhaps after corona things will be possible that you now call will “never” be possible.

You make al lot of personal assumptions.



Denmark uses the Euro. Maintaining a hard peg with the Euro is functionally the same in monetary and macroeconomic terms.....
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:51 pm

Dmoney wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
I'm getting tired of the Dutch public screaming (not here on A.net but in general) that we should 'rescue KLM from Air France'. There is a far right nationalistic movement (also) in The Netherlands with an extremely dumb unrealistic vision of our country. They believe The Netherlands should leave the EU, they believe the Rotterdam Harbor can survive without the EU, they believe KLM can survive without Air France and they believe we should get our former currency (the Guilder) back. Like what the heck is that going to solve?

The KLM of yesteryear doesn't exist anymore. KLM does not survive on its own, it couldn't survive on its own in 2003 and it can't in 2020. People are looking at an independent KLM through nostalgic eyes, which are not realistic eyes. Just like we tend to long back to the days of glamorous air travel in the Jet Age, but completely forgetting that flying in the jet age was not as safe as it is today, not as cheap as it is today, not as comfortable as it is today and so on.

KLM was on the brink of bankruptcy when they merged with Air France. The two airlines are now so well integrated that, first of all, undoing the merger would costs millions of euros and billions of headaches to achieve, secondly it would kill load factors because KLM fills AF planes and AF fills KLM planes, thirdly an independent KLM outside of Skyteam would be disastrous for AMS because for instance Delta would immediately consolidate its European hub at CDG and fourthly: who can KLM merge with? The European Commission will never allow KL to merge with LH/IAG or SAS for competitive reasons.

Imagine KLM joining the LH group, then LH would own the German, Dutch, Belgian, Swiss and Austrian market. Absolutely, totally, completely impossible.

And what people also tend to forget by suggesting adding KLM to IAG: Brexit! The Brexit still has not happend, and if BoJo and the EU can't fix a deal before 31/12/2020 all flights to and from Britain (or what's left of the flights) will come to a screeching halt on 1/1/2021 because the UK will break away from the EU in a no-deal Brexit.

My final point is that the Dutch Government owns a 14% stake in AFKLM and a 6% stake in KLM. So it is also politically impossible to simply let KLM break away from Air France, no minister wants to carry the responsibility of the death of an icon on his shoulders.

So can we please end this discussion. Air France-KLM will remain Air France-KLM, with all its quirks, shortcomings and successes. Period.


Denmark has no euro and does well, so does Norway and England and Switserland and Sweden.
The euro is not needed at all to do well and trade with other nations. Thats a fact.

Also, KLM outside of the holding with AF does not mean KLM must be “alone”. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.
KLM can keep working like they do with AF and Delta.
KLM out of Skyteam, KLM stopping the JV with Delta are things that you make up yourself.

And its certainly not certain that when the landscape changes perhaps after corona things will be possible that you now call will “never” be possible.

You make al lot of personal assumptions.



Denmark uses the Euro. Maintaining a hard peg with the Euro is functionally the same in monetary and macroeconomic terms.....


So how come they are not named in the eurobonds discussions? Or are they? Are they supposed to eventhough they dont have the euro participate in eurobonds if they would come to exist?
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:46 pm

airbuster wrote:
The only rumor I heard was that some leases on the KL A330’s have just recently been extended to 2026. That would raise some eyebrows if correct.

That’s great news if it turns out to be true :)
KJFK - EGLL:

Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
marcelh
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:08 pm

According to Dutch site luchtvaartnieuws KLM CEO has stated in an internal video message that a breakup with Air France is out of the question.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-topman-afscheid-van-air-france-niet-aan-de-orde in Dutch.

Everyone can move on and this thread can be archived...
 
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adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:07 pm

PM wrote:
adambrau wrote:
sekant wrote:
In terms of fleet though aren't we (or weren't we) moving toward the A350 family for longhaul and A220 for shorthaul anyway?


Are you forgetting a fleet of 787s?


No I am not but as I work gates at JFK often on AF009 before the shut down, this was the only flight with the 789 and it's come to JFK only 10-20 times. So I figured the fleet is small. And there is all historical chat about the 789's going to KLM and we get the A350 family. These days who knows.

Here is an awesome AF 350 video from YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LQnILBPN_s&t=16s

Enjoy!
JFK Friendly
 
Jetty
Topic Author
Posts: 1283
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:18 pm

marcelh wrote:
According to Dutch site luchtvaartnieuws KLM CEO has stated in an internal video message that a breakup with Air France is out of the question.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-topman-afscheid-van-air-france-niet-aan-de-orde in Dutch.

Repost
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:42 pm

Jetty wrote:
marcelh wrote:
According to Dutch site luchtvaartnieuws KLM CEO has stated in an internal video message that a breakup with Air France is out of the question.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-topman-afscheid-van-air-france-niet-aan-de-orde in Dutch.

Repost



Good, i think that it is time to end this topic now that KLM has said, again, that their marriage with AF will continue.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
Dmoney
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:53 am

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:59 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
Dmoney wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:

Denmark has no euro and does well, so does Norway and England and Switserland and Sweden.
The euro is not needed at all to do well and trade with other nations. Thats a fact.

Also, KLM outside of the holding with AF does not mean KLM must be “alone”. Delta is also not part of the holding but works extensively with KLM and AF.
KLM can keep working like they do with AF and Delta.
KLM out of Skyteam, KLM stopping the JV with Delta are things that you make up yourself.

And its certainly not certain that when the landscape changes perhaps after corona things will be possible that you now call will “never” be possible.

You make al lot of personal assumptions.



Denmark uses the Euro. Maintaining a hard peg with the Euro is functionally the same in monetary and macroeconomic terms.....


So how come they are not named in the eurobonds discussions? Or are they? Are they supposed to eventhough they dont have the euro participate in eurobonds if they would come to exist?



Fair point hadn't thought about that much. Though Eurobonds are fiscal not monetary
 
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PM
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: KL Takes Into Account Possibility of AFKL Breakup

Fri May 01, 2020 8:21 am

adambrau wrote:

Here is an awesome AF 350 video from YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LQnILBPN_s&t=16s

Enjoy!

It is the most stunning aeroplane. By far the best looking twin.

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