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a350lover
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BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:02 pm

Info elaborated by Alex Macheras, Aviation analyst who says:

"Breaking: British Airways owner IAG Group (which also own Iberia, Aer Lingus, Vueling & Level) will make up to 12,000 employees redundant, amid #COVID19 crisis"

"Alex Cruz, CEO of British Airways says “This has been a difficult message to write and one I never thought I would need to send” amid the largest crisis to face aviation in history. #COVID19"

"British Airways prepares to permanently remove 28.5% of its workforce, including pilots and crew, CEO of BA writes:

“There there is no ‘normal’ any longer”

“We are taking every possible action to conserve cash — all of these actions alone are not enough” #COVID19

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/12 ... 31142?s=20

*LETTER TO BA EMPLOYEES "Preparing for a different Future"

https://mediacentre.britishairways.com/ ... 2?ref=Home
Last edited by a350lover on Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:23 pm

Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.
 
Trk1
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:27 pm

Will not to be correcting in a year. No vaccine and flyers will be few and far between
 
IWMBH
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:52 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.


I don’t think BA or any other airline that wants to survive the crisis can continue without layoffs. As you mentioned, the market might recover in an year. But, it could take a lot longer because the economic downturn after the crises. You can’t have half your staff waiting around for something that might happen. I don’t think this is an plot to get rid of older employees, this is an necessity.
 
Galwayman
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:06 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.


Yes strongly suspect it will be aimed at the ‘heritage’ crews with the higher salaries . Difficult to see what the unions can do , no point in industrial action at the moment
 
SueD
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:12 pm

Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre around.

Not strictly last in first out but pretty close

Those elder as and you put heritage crews will decay under natural wastage anyway.


Additional ancillary staff will be further reduced and more contracting for sure.
 
CometOrbit
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:15 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.


"Came like a bolt from the blue" is a BALPA comment on the BBC.
So nearly all the fleet are grounded indefinitely with zero demand and they didn't think there would be any impact?
No doubt others will follow in one form or another.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52462660
 
JumboMaiden
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:19 pm

I think there are currently around 5000 worldwide, 2000 eurofleet and 6000 mixedfleet cabin crew. Not sure how many at LGW.
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:30 pm

Trk1 wrote:
Will not to be correcting in a year. No vaccine and flyers will be few and far between


Precisely, this is going to be a massive shift in the whole travel and tourism industry. Peoples attitudes to travel and being in close proximity to others has changed.
Without a vaccine and an effective way of policing its use and acceptance, 'normal' travel patterns cannot return. The logistics of tourism under these conditions will be very difficult.
Just slowly think through the whole travel experience, let us say just from your airport arrival until you are in your hotel room. How do you make this a safe, efficient interaction with social distancing?
This is why I personally think travel will take many years to return to 2019 levels. Hence headlines such as 'BA could make up to 12000 employees redundant' Many very wise strategists have worked this out and will need to plan for the worst even if things turn out not to be so dramatic.
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garpd
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:33 pm

CometOrbit wrote:
"Came like a bolt from the blue" is a BALPA comment on the BBC.
So nearly all the fleet are grounded indefinitely with zero demand and they didn't think there would be any impact?
No doubt others will follow in one form or another.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52462660


Indeed, you must either be ridiculously dense to have not noticed the state of the industry, or, as I suspect, stupendously ignorant and hoping that will stand you good stead to claim compensation.
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Arion640
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:41 pm

Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?
 
Arion640
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:42 pm

SueD wrote:
Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre around.

Not strictly last in first out but pretty close

Those elder as and you put heritage crews will decay under natural wastage anyway.


Additional ancillary staff will be further reduced and more contracting for sure.


Could be a mix of both.
 
Nickd92
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:47 pm

If that is the case then the Government needs to chase the money for the staff that have been furloughed thanks to to government scheme. Simple as it gets. Shouldn't be furloughing and laying people off until we have "unlocked".

It was only a matter of days ago, in fact may have been yesterday, that airlines and the industry was calling the government to offer a similar scheme once this is back; to assist with revenue and cash flow.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?

The moderators do not read every post in the forum. If you want to bring a post to their attention, you need to use the report post button (the triangle with the exclamation mark in it)

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VC10DC10
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:27 pm

"Balpa's general secretary Brian Strutton said: 'This has come as a bolt out of the blue from an airline that said it was wealthy enough to weather the Covid storm and declined any government support.

'Balpa does not accept that a case has been made for these job losses and we will be fighting to save every single one.'"

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52462660
 
Bhoy
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:27 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?

No, the source says BA has confirmed up to 12000 jobs could go at BA. Thread title is exactly as the source says. https://twitter.com/alexinair/status/12 ... 39553?s=21
 
JumboMaiden
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:28 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?


Hope I am wrong but it does appear to be 12000 BA not IAG staff.
As one of them I am concerned about how they will pick and choose.
 
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zeke
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:43 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?

No, the source says BA has confirmed up to 12000 jobs could go at BA. Thread title is exactly as the source says. https://twitter.com/alexinair/status/12 ... 39553?s=21


The source is not Twitter, that is just regurgitating real news, it is the IAG preliminary first quarter results and update to the London and Spanish stock exchanges

“ British Airways redundancy consultation

In light of the impact of COVID-19 on current operations and the expectation that the recovery of passenger demand to 2019 levels will take several years, British Airways is formally notifying its trade unions about a proposed restructuring and redundancy programme. The proposals remain subject to consultation but it is likely that they will affect most of British Airways' employees and may result in the redundancy of up to 12,000 of them.

As previously announced, British Airways has availed itself of the UK's COVID-19 Job Retention Scheme and furloughed 22,626 employees in April.”

From https://www.londonstockexchange.com/exc ... 20454.html
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Jetty
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:46 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?

No need to, it's just BA:

British Airways will make up to 12,000 workers redundant as owners IAG say it will take airline years to recover from coronavirus crisis
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-IAG.html
 
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scbriml
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:14 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?


That’s not what IAG themselves say:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52462660
[quote] In a statement, IAG said: "The proposals remain subject to consultation, but it is likely that they will affect most of British Airways' employees and may result in the redundancy of up to 12,000 of them."/[quote]
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:31 pm

This could be quite radical, with all LGW ops moved to LHR and IAG effectively trying to make the most of fortress Heathrow; or it could be a mix of changes. Unfortunately my hunch is that it will be the former - U2 will be retrenching at LGW and Norwegian could collapse, so IAG could take the view that if growth returns they do it from scratch at LGW with Vueling and Level because they will gamble the slots will be available. LHR slots can't be left unused, so consolidation at LHR would (unfortunately) make sense. A bit like after 9/11 when a host of LGW services moved to LHR.
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747megatop
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:34 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.

It's going to take more than a year for it to recover. The Vaccine needs to come and be available to the general public in large numbers.
 
usa330300
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:51 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.

They are not exploiting anything...simply trying to survive.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:52 pm

747megatop wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.

It's going to take more than a year for it to recover. The Vaccine needs to come and be available to the general public in large numbers.

Indeed. The BBC were reporting over the weekend that Gatwick Airport has estimated a minimum of four years to recover to 2019 passenger levels.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
Ugly051
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:04 pm

It’s fairly inevitable that this is going to happen with or without tax payer support...
 
Galwayman
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:24 pm

SueD wrote:
Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre around.

Not strictly last in first out but pretty close

Those elder as and you put heritage crews will decay under natural wastage anyway.


Additional ancillary staff will be further reduced and more contracting for sure.


We’ll have to agree to disagree ... I think they’ll do SSD and offer a 1.5/2 enhancement to volunteers who sign NDS and theyre ‘will be a stampede by Eurofleet and Worldwide - and the biggest complaint will be from volunteers who don’t get the deal . The large redundancy costs can be covered in a single year of massive losses (tax write offs) and the future operational costs will be reduced . The share holders will love it

Theyve got the systems set up now to churn low cost mixed fleeters and The Gatwick staff are already efficient so it’s toasted Eurofleet and toasted worldwide fleet unfortunately :-(
 
Arion640
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Misleading thread title. It is IAG as a group. Not BA. Please could a mod correct?


That’s not what IAG themselves say:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52462660
In a statement, IAG said: "The proposals remain subject to consultation, but it is likely that they will affect most of British Airways' employees and may result in the redundancy of up to 12,000 of them."/


Yes you are correct and I am wrong as I have since found it.

It was just the way I read it “British Airways owner IAG Group (which also own Iberia, Aer Lingus, Vueling & Level) will make up to 12,000 employees redundant, amid #COVID19 crisis"

It does sound like in that statement it’s 12k across the group as a whole however.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:40 pm

747megatop wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.

It's going to take more than a year for it to recover. The Vaccine needs to come and be available to the general public in large numbers.


Perhaps that's true, but it's not clear whether "redundancy" in this case means putting more people on furlough or completely shutting them out. Regardless, the unions should be very careful not to give in too quickly. Early-outs, leaves of absence, etc. should be considered before discussing any layoffs. This is not a time to subject people to an uncertain future when many of them may already be sick.
 
Brickell305
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:14 am

usdcaguy wrote:
747megatop wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Will be interesting to see what the unions have to say about this. Sounds like BA may be exploiting the pandemic to weed out higher-cost (maybe older?) workers so they can hire cheap when things pick up again. All because of a slump in travel that may correct itself in a year. BA knows that they can get away with this because strike actions wouldn't affect the operation much if at all.

It's going to take more than a year for it to recover. The Vaccine needs to come and be available to the general public in large numbers.


Perhaps that's true, but it's not clear whether "redundancy" in this case means putting more people on furlough or completely shutting them out. Regardless, the unions should be very careful not to give in too quickly. Early-outs, leaves of absence, etc. should be considered before discussing any layoffs. This is not a time to subject people to an uncertain future when many of them may already be sick.

Not sure if this is something lost in translation from British to American English but making someone or a position redundant is the equivalent of a permanent layoff.
 
jbpdx
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:16 am

747megatop wrote:
It's going to take more than a year for it to recover. The Vaccine needs to come and be available to the general public in large numbers.


Vaccines for these type of viruses are at best 65% effective.
^
 
LCDFlight
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:06 am

These companies have no money. I think the extent to which people expect it to return to “normal” is an overestimate.

Employees have no “leverage” because there is no value nor money in the enterprises. The previous business does not exist. Unlucky for shareholders and employees alike. Airlines are extremely volatile. This happens every 8-12 years. It will happen again. Best to all.
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:37 am

Nickd92 wrote:
If that is the case then the Government needs to chase the money for the staff that have been furloughed thanks to to government scheme. Simple as it gets. Shouldn't be furloughing and laying people off until we have "unlocked".

It was only a matter of days ago, in fact may have been yesterday, that airlines and the industry was calling the government to offer a similar scheme once this is back; to assist with revenue and cash flow.


It has kept people in employment and able to pay their bills longer. Why would the company have to pay it back? Did you really expect everyone on furlough to stay employed? Currently furlough goes to the end of June. This crisis will continue much longer. BA are adjusting to a new reality where the government has to stop the furlough payment or risk itself becoming insolvent.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:55 am

jbpdx wrote:
747megatop wrote:
It's going to take more than a year for it to recover. The Vaccine needs to come and be available to the general public in large numbers.


Vaccines for these type of viruses are at best 65% effective.


That is not the point, it will give people the feeling of safety for their next travel. Right now they do not feel safe and will not travel.
 
JumboMaiden
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:20 am

Galwayman wrote:
SueD wrote:
Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre arou


We’ll have to agree to disagree ... I think they’ll do SSD and offer a 1.5/2 enhancement to volunteers who sign NDS and theyre ‘will be a stampede by Eurofleet and Worldwide - and the biggest complaint will be from volunteers who don’t get the deal . The large redundancy costs can be covered in a single year of massive losses (tax write offs) and the future operational costs will be reduced . The share holders will love it

Theyve got the systems set up now to churn low cost mixed fleeters and The Gatwick staff are already efficient so it’s toasted Eurofleet and toasted worldwide fleet unfortunately :-(


Hi. It's still dark I'm sitting up worrying for my job, but not sure what you mean SSD/1,5/NDS?
I know roughly how many crew we are but no idea how many are affected on the ground to try and gauge where we *might* be.
 
RvA
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:41 am

JumboMaiden wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
SueD wrote:
Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre arou


We’ll have to agree to disagree ... I think they’ll do SSD and offer a 1.5/2 enhancement to volunteers who sign NDS and theyre ‘will be a stampede by Eurofleet and Worldwide - and the biggest complaint will be from volunteers who don’t get the deal . The large redundancy costs can be covered in a single year of massive losses (tax write offs) and the future operational costs will be reduced . The share holders will love it

Theyve got the systems set up now to churn low cost mixed fleeters and The Gatwick staff are already efficient so it’s toasted Eurofleet and toasted worldwide fleet unfortunately :-(


Hi. It's still dark I'm sitting up worrying for my job, but not sure what you mean SSD/1,5/NDS?
I know roughly how many crew we are but no idea how many are affected on the ground to try and gauge where we *might* be.


Hang in there. The forum is called airliners but I think especially at the moment you mostly see or hear airline bashers here. Taking issue with one airline getting support (in whatever shape or form) but not others, or they take issue with all support for this industry in general. In my mind that would be like going to the Toyota fan club forum and start bashing Toyota and saying how Nissan is better etc.

Anyway went on a tangent but hang in there, this may take a while longer for all those affected in this industry to get clarity.
 
Eagleboy
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:21 am

Galwayman wrote:
...............
Yes strongly suspect it will be aimed at the ‘heritage’ crews with the higher salaries . Difficult to see what the unions can do , no point in industrial action at the moment

Odd to see you getting involved here.
You previously stated that you have zero interest in cabin crew and actually feel that there is no use for them in the industry......
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:13 am

First and foremost, whilst it was predictable that BA would feel the chill winds of this crisis, sooner rather than later, I am devastated for those who work at or for BA.

If this plan goes through, it will have a major impact on them and their families, the employees of BA’s suppliers (and their families) and the whole of the UK economy (in my view aviation connectivity is a major driver of what makes the UK economy what it is).

The question for the UK government is whether they are prepared to allow VS to disappear, and BA to shrink by around 33% at a time where the aviation sectors in the USA, France, Germany (and many other places where you wouldn’t expect it) are being protected. This ignores the likes of Jet2, EZY who may well end up in a similar situation.

The additional angle is whether this is part of a strategic plan by BA to hang on without state aid for as long as possible (during which time it will remove the expensive employees it doesn’t want because they can’t strike and lobbying so that VS goes under) after which it will either emerge without its main competitor and internal costs reduced and if they need state aid at that point the governments hands are tied because the UK could not allow its only full service carrier to fail.

If either of these are partly accurate, this could set the UK economy back by decades as the loss employment and connectivity reverberates up and down the economy.

I don’t think government intervention in BA can be ruled out, whether it is invited or not.
 
Toinou
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:21 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
The question for the UK government is whether they are prepared to allow VS to disappear, and BA to shrink by around 33% at a time where the aviation sectors in the USA, France, Germany (and many other places where you wouldn’t expect it) are being protected. This ignores the likes of Jet2, EZY who may well end up in a similar situation.

I don't think that the situation is as different as you put it. The "protection" in place in countries you listed (and many others) is mostly about keeping the airlines alive but will not allow them to keep all their workforce as demand will weaken for, at least, some rather long time. The fact airlines in other countries did not already made similar announcements just indicates that they are waiting to do it (either because they want to see how things are moving or because someone's thinking it may not be the right moment for such news) and some already did, like SAS. I don't know where you seem to see such a difference.
 
a350lover
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:28 am

Will BA be able to justify layoffs via the current situation affecting these to the most senior crews?
In normal conditions I believed seniority was the master-key to organize crews and their positions.
 
Toinou
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:37 am

There is also the possibility to offer people part-time job. Some may prefer to earn less rather than to earn nothing. I guess this would be doable for most jobs in an airline but I don't know how common it is in that part of the world.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:39 am

Toinou wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
The question for the UK government is whether they are prepared to allow VS to disappear, and BA to shrink by around 33% at a time where the aviation sectors in the USA, France, Germany (and many other places where you wouldn’t expect it) are being protected. This ignores the likes of Jet2, EZY who may well end up in a similar situation.

I don't think that the situation is as different as you put it. The "protection" in place in countries you listed (and many others) is mostly about keeping the airlines alive but will not allow them to keep all their workforce as demand will weaken for, at least, some rather long time. The fact airlines in other countries did not already made similar announcements just indicates that they are waiting to do it (either because they want to see how things are moving or because someone's thinking it may not be the right moment for such news) and some already did, like SAS. I don't know where you seem to see such a difference.


I agree that companies (including airlines) will emerge differently to how they entered the Covid crisis.

I don’t think it’s likely that the German government would even consider the circa 10bn euro package for Lufthansa if it was justified on grounds of laying off workers (because the government would be paying twice - first for LH to lay them off, and second For the German equivalent of Jobseeker’s Allowance).

I also don’t think airlines are delaying announcements because they are waiting for the right moment. I agree that are waiting to see how things shake out before deciding how many staff they can get rid of - part of that equation is clearly going to entail how much government support they can access.

Finally, the situation in the UK is very different to overseas as follows.


UK - the is currently no bespoke support for the industry.

USA - $25bn bespoke support Including for DL, UA, AA.

France - €7bn support for AF.

Netherlands - €2-4bn support for KL.

Germany - €10bn support for LH.

There are similar stories in Italy, Austria, and Norway.

This is why I see such a difference - and it will get worse before it gets better. The unions should (and are) ask why BA has taken this step at this time.
 
AAMDanny
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:34 am

IMHO this is the situation BA needed to spearhead the changes they wanted to create 10 years ago with the old legacy contract Cabin Crew. The inefficient operation of 3 separate Cabin Crew fleets in operation at LHR can finally merge and synergise to create a leaner more robust operational Cabin Crew workforce. It's something BA have wanted to do for years.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1704
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:37 am

Eagleboy wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
...............
Yes strongly suspect it will be aimed at the ‘heritage’ crews with the higher salaries . Difficult to see what the unions can do , no point in industrial action at the moment

Odd to see you getting involved here.
You previously stated that you have zero interest in cabin crew and actually feel that there is no use for them in the industry......


Indeed. And for someone who doesn’t care much for the role he/she seems to know a lot about the structure of BA crew and their fleet...albeit “heritage” is not a term I’m familiar with, “legacy” on the other hand.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
Toinou
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:54 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
Finally, the situation in the UK is very different to overseas as follows.


UK - the is currently no bespoke support for the industry.

USA - $25bn bespoke support Including for DL, UA, AA.

France - €7bn support for AF.

Netherlands - €2-4bn support for KL.

Germany - €10bn support for LH.

There are similar stories in Italy, Austria, and Norway.

This is why I see such a difference - and it will get worse before it gets better. The unions should (and are) ask why BA has taken this step at this time.

Thanks for those numbers. I understand now, the situation is indeed rather different.

DobboDobbo wrote:
I don’t think it’s likely that the German government would even consider the circa 10bn euro package for Lufthansa if it was justified on grounds of laying off workers (because the government would be paying twice - first for LH to lay them off, and second For the German equivalent of Jobseeker’s Allowance).

Or maybe, the government is hoping that this amount will be sufficient to save the company and avoid having all staff going unemployed but know that it won't be able to avoid any layoffs because of the situation. (Given the latter making any quick return to normal impossible, I dismiss the third option, which would be "They made a balance between what it would cost to save the company in its current state and the cost of some unemployment benefits.")

DobboDobbo wrote:
I also don’t think airlines are delaying announcements because they are waiting for the right moment. I agree that are waiting to see how things shake out before deciding how many staff they can get rid of - part of that equation is clearly going to entail how much government support they can access.

I still think it may be in the mind of some airlines bosses and maybe more in the minds of people in some governments. But I agree with you that it must be more a question of taking time to assess the situation.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:17 am

JumboMaiden wrote:
Hi. It's still dark I'm sitting up worrying for my job...

Hang in there! I suspect there will be a lot of sleepless nights ahead for anyone actually employed in the industry.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
astuteman
Posts: 7146
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:17 am

SueD wrote:
Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre around.

Not strictly last in first out but pretty close

Those elder as and you put heritage crews will decay under natural wastage anyway.


Additional ancillary staff will be further reduced and more contracting for sure.


I've been through this situation twice in the distant past with my employer (massively in the early '90's - from 14,000 to 3,000 over 2 years)

What happened in both cases was a bit of both.

From the agreement with unions:-

1. Contractors go first (except for a handful of "critical" ones)
2. Apprentices with no contract guarantees go
3. Volunteers are called for, usually with some form of termination package (Voluntary Redundancy). This is when a lot of the senior people who are the "brains trust" of the business tend to go, permanently damaging the business in the process. This is usually has an associated job transfer aspect to align supply of volunteers with demand for jobs in different roles
4. Look to split roles or part-time staff if there is an ability to do so

After all of these have been explored:-

5. Compulsory redundancies, either LIFO and/or competency assessment based (we had a combo of LIFO up to a certain tenure, and then assessment after that).

I understand the 12,000 to be from a current role of 42,000.

I suspect that will need leavers of all 5 types.

Rgds
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1398
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:50 am

I will preface my post by saying that I feel for anybody working for BA at this time. I imagine this is not a pleasant situation to be in and I hope for the best for everyone.

AAMDanny wrote:
IMHO this is the situation BA needed to spearhead the changes they wanted to create 10 years ago with the old legacy contract Cabin Crew. The inefficient operation of 3 separate Cabin Crew fleets in operation at LHR can finally merge and synergise to create a leaner more robust operational Cabin Crew workforce. It's something BA have wanted to do for years.


BA were embroiled in industrial relations issues when the Mixed Fleet grade was introduced and again within the last few years over their pay and conditions. I suspect the unions may be wise to any attempts to do this . I don't know if BA have the appetite to open that Pandora's box again.

a350lover wrote:
Will BA be able to justify layoffs via the current situation affecting these to the most senior crews?
In normal conditions I believed seniority was the master-key to organize crews and their positions.


Another factor to consider is that BA will be legally required to make statutory payments to anybody made redundant. How much this would cost is dependent on length of service and is capped at a set amount. I guess it would depend what is more important to BA at this time: upfront costs or long-term savings.

Then again, I wouldn't rule out some people volunteering themselves for redundancy regardless of position or service length. Some of the older employees and those approaching retirement age may well see this as an opportunity to take early retirement and some may decide now's the time to leave for whatever reason and do something else. I remember speaking to a lady a few years ago who was an ex-BA cabin crew and took voluntary redundancy in the late-90's. She had two children at primary school age at the time and she had been in the role since the 80's (TriStar's were mentioned a few times). She spoke very fondly of her time in the job, so even though it was probably what's best for her then-young family, I imagine it wasn't an easy decision to make either.

In any case, I expect the unions would negotiate something that goes above statutory requirements.

DobboDobbo wrote:
This is why I see such a difference - and it will get worse before it gets better. The unions should (and are) ask why BA has taken this step at this time.


I don't know what it's like in other countries, but one reason I can think of is that in the UK any company that is making redundancies to 100 people or more have to carry out a consultation process lasting 45 days before they're let go and off the payroll.

Unfortunately, I expect BA's rivals across Europe will make similar redundancies in the not-too-distant future, especially those who have announced permanent fleet cuts.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15199
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:03 pm

astuteman wrote:
SueD wrote:
Galway couldn’t disagree more its far easier and cheaper to ditch the young Mixed Fleet crews many of whom would cost very little to IAG and indeed even less if SSD terms applied - Major threats must surely be once again Gatwick crews and staff after such hard work to turn the business centre around.

Not strictly last in first out but pretty close
Those elder as and you put heritage crews will decay under natural wastage anyway.
Additional ancillary staff will be further reduced and more contracting for sure.


I've been through this situation twice in the distant past with my employer (massively in the early '90's - from 14,000 to 3,000 over 2 years)
What happened in both cases was a bit of both.

From the agreement with unions:
1. Contractors go first (except for a handful of "critical" ones)
2. Apprentices with no contract guarantees go
3. Volunteers are called for, usually with some form of termination package (Voluntary Redundancy). This is when a lot of the senior people who are the "brains trust" of the business tend to go, permanently damaging the business in the process. This is usually has an associated job transfer aspect to align supply of volunteers with demand for jobs in different roles
4. Look to split roles or part-time staff if there is an ability to do so
After all of these have been explored:-
5. Compulsory redundancies, either LIFO and/or competency assessment based (we had a combo of LIFO up to a certain tenure, and then assessment after that).
I understand the 12,000 to be from a current role of 42,000. I suspect that will need leavers of all 5 types.
Rgds


The usual pattern of reductions of staff the quoted post lists will all be used. There is a need to make massive reductions due to the corresponding collapse and expected very low demand over the next year or more, especially with an airline that is dominantly international. The reductions must be carefully made so not too difficult to have sufficient staffing when business returns as well as keep peace with the unions. Unpaid furloughs, with being able to get unemployment benefits from the government, are one way to deal with necessary reductions but limit the pain to the employee. Another 'spanner in the works' will be the affects of Brexit as it continues over the next year.
No doubt that BA and other airlines will take advantage of the pandemic to make long desired 'right sizing' of staff, use more part-time and contracted staff, reduce the number and frequency of flights. Airlines like BA, will also have to face a significant decline in demand for their most profitable premium seats as businesses shift to more video conferencing, need to cut costs, many perhaps reluctant to travel. One wild card for BA will be if VS goes out of business and at least for the short term is not replaced (although I expect DL to try to get their LHR slots). In that case, they will need some employees on the rebound.
 
LS83
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:39 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:25 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
Toinou wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
The question for the UK government is whether they are prepared to allow VS to disappear, and BA to shrink by around 33% at a time where the aviation sectors in the USA, France, Germany (and many other places where you wouldn’t expect it) are being protected. This ignores the likes of Jet2, EZY who may well end up in a similar situation.

I don't think that the situation is as different as you put it. The "protection" in place in countries you listed (and many others) is mostly about keeping the airlines alive but will not allow them to keep all their workforce as demand will weaken for, at least, some rather long time. The fact airlines in other countries did not already made similar announcements just indicates that they are waiting to do it (either because they want to see how things are moving or because someone's thinking it may not be the right moment for such news) and some already did, like SAS. I don't know where you seem to see such a difference.


I agree that companies (including airlines) will emerge differently to how they entered the Covid crisis.

I don’t think it’s likely that the German government would even consider the circa 10bn euro package for Lufthansa if it was justified on grounds of laying off workers (because the government would be paying twice - first for LH to lay them off, and second For the German equivalent of Jobseeker’s Allowance).

I also don’t think airlines are delaying announcements because they are waiting for the right moment. I agree that are waiting to see how things shake out before deciding how many staff they can get rid of - part of that equation is clearly going to entail how much government support they can access.

Finally, the situation in the UK is very different to overseas as follows.


UK - the is currently no bespoke support for the industry.

USA - $25bn bespoke support Including for DL, UA, AA.

France - €7bn support for AF.

Netherlands - €2-4bn support for KL.

Germany - €10bn support for LH.

There are similar stories in Italy, Austria, and Norway.

This is why I see such a difference - and it will get worse before it gets better. The unions should (and are) ask why BA has taken this step at this time.


What stake do the respective governments have in these national airlines compared to the British government and BA?
 
Bhoy
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:44 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
...the UK could not allow its only full service carrier to fail.

Is that the full service carrier that charges £5 for a cup of tea and scone? :duck:
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