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SCQ83
Posts: 5749
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sun May 03, 2020 7:17 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
People worry about a monopoly at an airport, its nonsense, just look around the world. Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Australia all with flag carriers and not much else as home base.


This is a bad point - all of the examples are either not comparable to the UK as they are far smaller markets and/or to BA/VS/EZY et al as they involve state or substantially state owned airlines and/or because they are examples of markets with competitors (even if not comparable competitors).


No need to go to those countries. Every other single big country in Europe is on its way to only one big carrier:

- Germany: Lufthansa (Air Berlin bankrupt)

- France: Air France. There are some minor carriers like Corsair in no way comparable to Virgin Atlantic.

- Italy: Alitalia (Air Italy bankrupt)

- Spain: Iberia (Air Europa purchased by IB; if the purchase is cancelled they will go belly up).
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sun May 03, 2020 7:17 pm

I've seen an alleged proposal of salaries (it's doing the rounds on social media)
Supervisor salary £21500 Maincrew £13500 - no bonus - and did not mention ehr.
Various shortening of some trips and removal of almost all European nightstops (much like Aer Lingus)
I am wondering what kind of working life/culture they are thinking up just as they did when mixed fleet was put together.
It was a whole mindset that they wanted rigorously supervised and micro managed. Many small concessions were gained
over the last couple of years which I hope are not stripped away for those that survive the job kill. I believe I have seen in internal
notices that they will still operate to EASA rules until Britain leaves that.

If this is all true, I don't understand why media are saying staff who stay will be signing zero hour contracts. A zero hour contract
would be a gross hourly rate calculated either from report to clear or doors shut to doors open, no?
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
BAorAB wrote:
People worry about a monopoly at an airport, its nonsense, just look around the world. Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Australia all with flag carriers and not much else as home base.


This is a bad point - all of the examples are either not comparable to the UK as they are far smaller markets and/or to BA/VS/EZY et al as they involve state or substantially state owned airlines and/or because they are examples of markets with competitors (even if not comparable competitors).


No need to go to those countries. Every other single big country in Europe is on its way to only one big carrier:

- Germany: Lufthansa (Air Berlin bankrupt)

- France: Air France. There are some minor carriers like Corsair in no way comparable to Virgin Atlantic.

- Italy: Alitalia (Air Italy bankrupt)

- Spain: Iberia (Air Europa purchased by IB; if the purchase is cancelled they will go belly up).



That’s a better point, but it still doesn’t work as each of those countries the airlines have either been nationalised, or received significant and bespoke state support in a variety of forms (which BA has rejected).

I’m not saying that a single carrier in the UK is necessarily a bad thing, but there are clearly differences between a monopoly where there is state control and a monopoly belonging to a private enterprise. One is not so good, the other is bad.

At some stage pretty quickly the UK government has to decide its policy position in this.
 
concordeforever
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sun May 03, 2020 9:49 pm

It sounds to me as though some posters on here that clearly work for BA seem to think that what the airline is proposing is okay to "ensure it's survival". You have long service and are probably near the end of your careers anyway. We are not all in the same situation. So, announcing 12000 redundancies whilst taking advantage of the government job retention scheme, then saying basically everyone will be sacked and if you are lucky we will re-employ you on zero hours contracts, and the lowest possible salary, and you better like it or lump it, is a great way to treat all your staff.
The same staff that have helped you make record profits consistently over the past few years, including £1.9 Billion after tax profit for 2019. Yes, the industry is in trouble, and cuts will need to be made, but the way it's being done trying to force in all these changes using the virus as an excuse is way over the top. BA not asking for aid and waiting for Virgin to fail so they can later on become the sole UK flag carrier doesn't wash with the majority of us who still have mortgages to pay and family to support. What's the betting if Virgin do go under BA will say we tried everything and now need aid? The Government needs to step in now and say what it is going to do before it's too late.

Good luck to all my colleagues and hope that some of us pull through this.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sun May 03, 2020 9:58 pm

BAorAB wrote:
I bet over time BA staff salaries look more like VS salaries about 30% less in the back and front of the plane for starters. My uncle BA cpt 747 LHR - 180k GBP annually, my dads friend VS 747 cpt Ex LHR now LGW -130K GBP annually. Big difference there. Cabin crew VS crew still 12-15% less than BA's newer mix fleet contract.


This isn't an accurate comparison.

You'd need to have 24 years service in BA to achieve that salary (or 34 if you joined after 2013). Virgin's captain basic salary tops out at £165,000. The important difference here though is that Virgin pilots are contracted to only 750 annual hours - 20% less than the 900 at BA. Pay per hour is very similar. Overtime rates at BA are actually quite low too. It's a fallacy that BA pilot pay is excessive - it's pretty much below market rate on a comparable basis.

BA A320 captains, particularly at Gatwick, are some of the lowest paid Airbus captains in Europe! New cadet FOs on the Airbus are paid less than at easyJet. BA pilot pay isn't excessive and is around 20-30% lower than comparable airlines such as the US3 and AF/KLM and Lufthansa.
 
GDB
Posts: 13746
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sun May 03, 2020 10:10 pm

concordeforever wrote:
It sounds to me as though some posters on here that clearly work for BA seem to think that what the airline is proposing is okay to "ensure it's survival". You have long service and are probably near the end of your careers anyway. We are not all in the same situation. So, announcing 12000 redundancies whilst taking advantage of the government job retention scheme, then saying basically everyone will be sacked and if you are lucky we will re-employ you on zero hours contracts, and the lowest possible salary, and you better like it or lump it, is a great way to treat all your staff.
The same staff that have helped you make record profits consistently over the past few years, including £1.9 Billion after tax profit for 2019. Yes, the industry is in trouble, and cuts will need to be made, but the way it's being done trying to force in all these changes using the virus as an excuse is way over the top. BA not asking for aid and waiting for Virgin to fail so they can later on become the sole UK flag carrier doesn't wash with the majority of us who still have mortgages to pay and family to support. What's the betting if Virgin do go under BA will say we tried everything and now need aid? The Government needs to step in now and say what it is going to do before it's too late.

Good luck to all my colleagues and hope that some of us pull through this.


I refer you to my reply no.144 on this thread.
I'm serious and the more who do so, the better, whatever you think of BA's apparent stance, I say apparent as it could be 'worst case' to frighten the government.

It would play well at PMQ's.
(Even if he isn't actually there).
 
Andy33
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 5:38 am

BAorAB wrote:
As much as many including the UK regulatory authorities may not like it, If VS does fail, then BA & IAG would make the mot sense to swoop in and take over it's assets, routes and slots.

There are no assets, routes or slots for BA and IAG to swoop in on. That's the whole problem. All VS's planes are leased or used as collateral for loans. All their slots are used as collateral for loans. Their LHR and LGW routes have always duplicated ones already flown by BA, not surprising really as these were the most likely to succeed. Now admittedly BA has no longhaul routes from MAN, but that was the result of a deliberate decision to offer connections across LHR (and more recently DUB) instead.
To make use of the planes or slots it would be necessary to negotiate with individual leasing companies and mortgage holders.
 
Turnhouse1
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 11:04 am

JumboMaiden wrote:
I've seen an alleged proposal of salaries (it's doing the rounds on social media)
Supervisor salary £21500 Maincrew £13500 - no bonus - and did not mention ehr.
Various shortening of some trips and removal of almost all European nightstops (much like Aer Lingus)
I am wondering what kind of working life/culture they are thinking up just as they did when mixed fleet was put together.
It was a whole mindset that they wanted rigorously supervised and micro managed. Many small concessions were gained
over the last couple of years which I hope are not stripped away for those that survive the job kill. I believe I have seen in internal
notices that they will still operate to EASA rules until Britain leaves that.

If this is all true, I don't understand why media are saying staff who stay will be signing zero hour contracts. A zero hour contract
would be a gross hourly rate calculated either from report to clear or doors shut to doors open, no?


That sounds questionable as the UK minimum wage is £8.72/hour, which works out at nearly £16000, assuming an average 35 hour week.
 
shamrock321
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 12:03 pm

Turnhouse1 wrote:
JumboMaiden wrote:
I've seen an alleged proposal of salaries (it's doing the rounds on social media)
Supervisor salary £21500 Maincrew £13500 - no bonus - and did not mention ehr.
Various shortening of some trips and removal of almost all European nightstops (much like Aer Lingus)
I am wondering what kind of working life/culture they are thinking up just as they did when mixed fleet was put together.
It was a whole mindset that they wanted rigorously supervised and micro managed. Many small concessions were gained
over the last couple of years which I hope are not stripped away for those that survive the job kill. I believe I have seen in internal
notices that they will still operate to EASA rules until Britain leaves that.

If this is all true, I don't understand why media are saying staff who stay will be signing zero hour contracts. A zero hour contract
would be a gross hourly rate calculated either from report to clear or doors shut to doors open, no?


That sounds questionable as the UK minimum wage is £8.72/hour, which works out at nearly £16000, assuming an average 35 hour week.



This would be exclusive of the hourly rate MF currently earn whilst at work which in a busy month could make £800-£1000
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 12:23 pm

JumboMaiden wrote:
removal of almost all European nightstops (much like Aer Lingus)

This is clearly nonsense. That first wave of arrivals into LHR are key connecting flights for the first wave of long haul departures. The only way that market can be supported is night stopping aircraft around Europe.

BAs operating model has too strong a dependency on night stopped aircraft. I imagine this rumour came from a Union.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 12:44 pm

'[/quote] This would be exclusive of the hourly rate MF currently earn whilst at work which in a busy month could make £800-£1000[/quote]

yes, sorry that's what i meant by no mention of the ehr elapsed hourly rate sum.

The sum is also what I would expect a current starting rate to be, no suggestion (yet) that new contracts start at all the same entry
level sum. (i.e. will the current mixed fleet structure simply be extended to everyone or is it day 1 for everyone... that the office gossips
have not shared.
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 12:50 pm

APYu wrote:
JumboMaiden wrote:
removal of almost all European nightstops (much like Aer Lingus)

This is clearly nonsense. That first wave of arrivals into LHR are key connecting flights for the first wave of long haul departures. The only way that market can be supported is night stopping aircraft around Europe.

BAs operating model has too strong a dependency on night stopped aircraft. I imagine this rumour came from a Union.


Yes, sorry that is what I meant by no mention of ehr amounts - elapsed hourly rates. The sum quoted is also about what entry level crew make now
so whether the office gossips mean everyone starts at entry level day 1 isn't "clear" (as if anyone could be)
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 12:51 pm

IT issues sorry about the duplication and wrong quote
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 872
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 1:55 pm

APYu wrote:
This is clearly nonsense. That first wave of arrivals into LHR are key connecting flights for the first wave of long haul departures. The only way that market can be supported is night stopping aircraft around Europe.

BAs operating model has too strong a dependency on night stopped aircraft. I imagine this rumour came from a Union.


I thought the same. Legacy carriers normally depend on that first bank of EU arrivals for feeding their first long haul bank of departures. What time do BA long haul flights start leaving?
 
Galwayman
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 2:14 pm

Maybe the timing of early morning flight departures to the US etc will get pushed back to facilitate the elimination of European night stops. Or (Horror of horrors) do what Wizz does - really late night flights to Europe with horifically early morning flights back into london and crew resting for one or two hours onboard the aircraft in the middle of the night ( I think Wizz do this because they have no where to park the aircraft in luton overnight

Some cities, like New York can do early morning departures without feed probably . Anything is possible now unfortunately ......
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 872
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 2:26 pm

Maybe London-Europe late at night could get a bit of traffic, but Europe-London as Wizz flies their bank into Luton makes zero sense for an airline such as BA which aims to estimulate some business traffic. On top of that, Heathrow is/was busy in the morning with all the bank of early arrivals.

Really do we see a BA HAM-LHR for example leaving at 5am to arrive into Heatrow at only 6am? Don’t know if BA is going to appeal many business taffic EU-London then...
 
Channex101
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:41 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 2:57 pm

JumboMaiden wrote:
I've seen an alleged proposal of salaries (it's doing the rounds on social media)
Supervisor salary £21500 Maincrew £13500 - no bonus - and did not mention ehr.
Various shortening of some trips and removal of almost all European nightstops (much like Aer Lingus)
I am wondering what kind of working life/culture they are thinking up just as they did when mixed fleet was put together.
It was a whole mindset that they wanted rigorously supervised and micro managed. Many small concessions were gained
over the last couple of years which I hope are not stripped away for those that survive the job kill. I believe I have seen in internal
notices that they will still operate to EASA rules until Britain leaves that.

If this is all true, I don't understand why media are saying staff who stay will be signing zero hour contracts. A zero hour contract
would be a gross hourly rate calculated either from report to clear or doors shut to doors open, no?


This is absolute rubbish.... and nothing more than a rumour. I am furloughed crew, with over 13yrs service to BA (so not old contract mega bucks) I do agree changes need to be made, but surely that should start from the top no? If BA is in that much trouble why should Alex continue to get his 750,000 starting salary a year for the absolute s##t show he has caused over the last few years.

The info you quotes was sent around the crew community via text and nothing but gossip, no details of any new contract have been mentioned other than the 3 points we already knew, a new "Heathrow" fleet, with all 3 current fleets being disbanded, mixed flying for all crew, which in my eyes should have been introduced years ago, some crew have 4 aircraft licences, short haul crew have only 1.. nothing stopping them mixed flying as your contract states Cabin Crew, it isn't fleet specific.
Changing the supervisory ladder onboard, again that should have been done years ago. You have old contract Pursers working down as main crew but getting paid as a purser still! madness.

To pick apart a few other points, the removal of most euro nightstops just wouldn't happen, BA has a lot of business traffic into London on those first inbounds, and also connections onto a few early long departures before 11am such as IAD JFK TLV LAX
I don't think there would be room to have the entire 100+ Airbus fleet on the ground at the same time.

Long haul trips could be shortened, but that's what happened when mixed fleet was introduced, and west coast USA nightstops had to be extended back to a 2 nighter due to complaints of crew fatigue.

This all makes me think its nothing but speculation, I had heard the starting salary was 17k for main crew and 25k for seniors so just goes to show.
Last edited by Channex101 on Mon May 04, 2020 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 2:58 pm

a350lover wrote:
Maybe London-Europe late at night could get a bit of traffic, but Europe-London as Wizz flies their bank into Luton makes zero sense for an airline such as BA which aims to estimulate some business traffic. On top of that, Heathrow is/was busy in the morning with all the bank of early arrivals.

Really do we see a BA HAM-LHR for example leaving at 5am to arrive into Heatrow at only 6am? Don’t know if BA is going to appeal many business taffic EU-London then...


Thats the question to be answered really isn't it ...... the great unknown
 
GDB
Posts: 13746
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 4:53 pm

I mentioned further up about writing to your MP.
Today my union (GMB) contacted me via my home e-mail. with links to write to Downing Street (1000 character limit), to your MP, as well as a petition for family and friends.
They provided a pro forma for the one for the PM's office, or you could write your own.
Did my own for both.
Without a character limit for the MP's, I suggest you calibrate it to their views/voting record, interests, they also stressed not to share on public forums so as much as I'd like to, not this time.

Might seem pointless, maybe it is, however if it is the case of BA holding out for a better deal, no harm done anyway.
Won't cost you anything.
 
theginge
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 5:33 pm

I wouldn't see nightstops being removed from a lot of European Cities, if/when business travel picks up again those first arrivals are key for getting people in to London for a days work.
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1981
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Mon May 04, 2020 9:45 pm

Speedbird2155 wrote:
The UK government will not extend the furlough scheme in definitely - what will businesses do once that ends? The BA legal team are not stupid and would have investigated the ability to start this process during this period and I suspect they also got outside legal advise. Starting now means that they can act once they furlough scheme ends.

Working for BA, the reality that this was coming start with the realisation that aircraft would be retired earlier and that some where being placed in long term storage. Sending all A380s to France was unexpected but spoke volumes. Thinking about this, it meant that we would be overstaffed for a long time going forward and things would need to change. Add to this the uncertainty of when countries will reopen to passenger movements and customer confidence in booking flights. With the talk of possible second waves, that confidence will be slow to return.

Is BA being opportunistic?? Without a doubt they are but they are not alone, just have so far had the highest announced number of potential redundancy and is one of the more high profile companies in the UK to make such announcements. As I understand it, Heathrow Airport has already started the process but I haven't had confirmation of exactly what they are doing. Since BA made their announcement, we have seen Ryanair and Rolls Royce.

Do I wish, things were different - yes I do but the longer this pandemic continues without a vaccine or cure, the worse I fear things will get. All I can do at this stage is to accept that I'm in a difficult situation, hope for the best and start thinking ahead and looking at alternatives should the worse happen.

Unfortunately true. The UK's furlough scheme was three to four times over-subscribed based on Treasury estimates. Pressure is mounting for the Government to say what happens after the end of June. Will it be extended? Can it be made flexible, e.g. to allow staff to return to work part-time and have some wages topped up? Many companies are considering starting consultations in less than two weeks because they have to run for 45 days, which would get you to the end of June. As you say, whilst some hope their will be a 'V' shaped recovery once the pandemic eases the aviation sector won't be one of those. So IAG are having to look at what this means.

LGW is heavily leisure orientated, even if O&D for London and the South East. Will people have money to spend on holidays? Who wants to go abroad in the current climate? Over at LHR business travel will take a hit. Many firms are finding that they have to embrace technology, which means fewer reasons to fly. When you have the Chief Executive of Barclays questioning the logic of so many employees in one place, with reviews into how to embrace home working as well as to utilise spare space in bank branches to create mini offices, well times are a changing.

IAG could tinker or they could be radical. They obviously believe in the need for the latter and a major retrenchment. The so-called London Airways will likely seem more like Heathrow Airways, and Gatwick (if it stays) will be much smaller. They expect to be a much smaller operation but to also to be in a tough environment for several years.

BAorAB wrote:
As much as many including the UK regulatory authorities may not like it, If VS does fail, then BA & IAG would make the mot sense to swoop in and take over it's assets, routes and slots. Somehow circumstance has always benefited BA, and it could again. No other airline could as quickly bring VS's dormant staff, assets and suppliers back to life than BA. They could easily take over the 747's A35K and 789's with no major change to their existing fleet. Could easily send the A333's to Iberia and Lingus. easily absorb Virgin holidays into BA holidays and take over all UK slots. Now that sounds horrible to any competitor or traveler, but nothing makes more sense to bankers, governments, airports, and creditors than this. People worry about a monopoly at an airport, its nonsense, just look around the world. Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Australia all with flag carriers and not much else as home base. If this doesn't get approved, and VS simply collapses, then yes BA will scale up over time to take advantage, but so many people lose with VS's assets just being liquidated for pennies on the open market not to mention all the job losses!

If - still a big if - VS were to collapse do not expect IAG to ride in and purchase the lot. Why would they with the scale of the cuts proposed at BA? Plus what assets do VS actually have? This is apparently why they are struggling to get a Government loan - losses in three of the last four years and actually very few assets (e.g. virtually the whole fleet is leased). So that leaves LHR slots, but others may still try get their hands on those. Heck, with a 49% stake what is to stop DL having ownership of some transferred in advance of any collapse? LH did that with BD slots before selling to BA so that LH Group airlines all had a better slot portfolio at LHR. (It was why IAG was able to argue that MAN and GLA didn't fall into the remedy slot camp because BD had already dropped the routes and the slots had been reallocated within LH Group).

LGW leisure operation? No way BA would want to take on the VS 744 fleet, whilst the A333s are RR powered (EI/IB use GE powered machines). Same with MAN - why try rescue the VS operation in the current climate. Sadly if VS collapses the carcus will be be picked over, just as with Monarch and Thomas Cook.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 6:25 am

It's likely that all air travel in the western world will take a long time to recover due to health scare issues and recession. Europe might be more affected than the US due to the wide prevalence of high speed rail, but consequently island nations such as the UK have an inherent requirement for flights. I don't consider there being a likelihood that VS will survive and in fact it's unlikely that there will be a competitor airline in the UK except for foreign airlines (KLM probably). Chinese carriers probably have no interest in serving the domestic and European markets considering the lack of profit available in the long term and the relatively restrictive transatlantic regulatory market.

East Asia will rebound quicker because most people have memory of SARS and therefore understand that nothing bad will happen after flying resumes, and also because the economies in Asia still appear to be growing (India is on course for a highest growth in the world). They have less reason to be scared of what is mostly a western pandemic.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 7:30 am

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Many companies are considering starting consultations in less than two weeks because they have to run for 45 days, which would get you to the end of June.


That is no doubt one reason why BA chose to time the redundancy announcement around now, because the 45-day consultation period means they will still be on the payroll in the meantime.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 7:33 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
Many companies are considering starting consultations in less than two weeks because they have to run for 45 days, which would get you to the end of June.


That is no doubt one reason why BA chose to time the redundancy announcement around now, because the 45-day consultation period means they will still be on the payroll in the meantime.


Not sure how any company can meaningfully consult with employees who are furloughed and therefore not allowed to do ANYTHING related to work.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
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scbriml
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 7:38 am

APYu wrote:
Not sure how any company can meaningfully consult with employees who are furloughed and therefore not allowed to do ANYTHING related to work.


It's a very proscribed process. In terms of the general workforce, there's no real 'consultation', you just get told what's going to happen. Union reps and nominated employees would represent the workforce at meetings, but there's no real negotiations going on. The company says what it's going to do and the reps tell the employees.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GDB
Posts: 13746
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 8:29 am

APYu wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
Many companies are considering starting consultations in less than two weeks because they have to run for 45 days, which would get you to the end of June.


That is no doubt one reason why BA chose to time the redundancy announcement around now, because the 45-day consultation period means they will still be on the payroll in the meantime.


Not sure how any company can meaningfully consult with employees who are furloughed and therefore not allowed to do ANYTHING related to work.


We are told that while we cannot 'do' work if furloughed, we are encouraged to check the internal BA intranet/your internal e-mail for updates, which is how I found one from my Union asking for an up to date home e-mail address.
Allowing them to send to their thoughts on the situation in confidence, as well as links to write to Downing Street, your local MP and a petition for family and friends to send to the Commons.

So yesterday was about the busiest I've had since being furloughed.

Some people in my dept. have contacted me, informally, to give updates.
I am to be on furlough until end of May, which is not good, not however the worst case which would have been until late June.
It might be brought forward, though I doubt it.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 11:47 am

scbriml wrote:
APYu wrote:
Not sure how any company can meaningfully consult with employees who are furloughed and therefore not allowed to do ANYTHING related to work.


It's a very proscribed process. In terms of the general workforce, there's no real 'consultation', you just get told what's going to happen. Union reps and nominated employees would represent the workforce at meetings, but there's no real negotiations going on. The company says what it's going to do and the reps tell the employees.


I’m familiar with the process. The union reps are all furloughed too.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
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EddieMunster
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue May 05, 2020 2:40 pm

Very interesting and diverse viewpoints from people working in the same company. I’m not a BA employee or in the airline business at all, but I am an Executive Club Gold For Life after you folks drove me around the world for the last 20 years with the utmost care, professionalism and good humor. From Heathrow to Joburg, Sydney, Tokyo, Singapore, Moscow, Dubai, Washington and LA, thank God most of it in my favorite seat on the upper deck, racking up over 3 million miles (sorry, I won’t call them Av__s). It was a real pleasure (almost) every time. EK might have the blingy suites and showers, but I’ll take the peace and quiet in 64K and occasional chat with a friendly cabin crew gal from Peckham or Putney anytime.

I also fell victim to a British redundancy, and it sucked. I agree with some of the bolshy comments about seemingly greedy and heartless senior execs, and yet had to make some of those same decisions about my own teams when trying to save the business, and it ain’t easy or always fair. But I do believe these are extraordinary circumstances that will affect all of us for quite a while - including me, once I’m able to start flying again, facing probably much less choice of flights, higher fares, and no more upper deck now that I have to pay for it myself!

So best of luck to all of you, and hopefully we all come out of this on the other side someday soon.

-Eddie
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri May 15, 2020 7:12 am

Meanwhile, despite Rishi Sunak announcing an extension of the furlough scheme by a few extra months and on the back of his appearance in front of the Transport Select Committee this week, Willie Walsh has announced BA will proceed with the plan to make 12,000 redundancies...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... us-airline
 
jomur
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri May 15, 2020 10:52 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
Meanwhile, despite Rishi Sunak announcing an extension of the furlough scheme by a few extra months and on the back of his appearance in front of the Transport Select Committee this week, Willie Walsh has announced BA will proceed with the plan to make 12,000 redundancies...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... us-airline


Like any sensible business's which now, unfortunately, have more staff than jobs. The company still have other expenses that they still have to pay for those excess staff even under the furlough scheme. Sad but true.
 
RvA
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri May 15, 2020 11:33 am

Agreed very sad but extending the furlough situation isn’t enough help when things might take years to recover. It may only buy the employees and the company a bit of time, in this case.
 
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seahawk
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri May 15, 2020 11:41 am

A company that wants to survive needs to make quick and serious cuts to the workforce quickly and should aim to get rid of all those highly paid long term employees wherever possible. It is a chance to form the company for the future.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri May 15, 2020 12:25 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52641807

The recession the UK is heading into now will probably last well into the next year, it will be a cold bleak Christmas for many, and lets not forget the support staff like airline caterers with no planes to feed. The UK will fair badly but the US will probably fair worse.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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JumboMaiden
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue May 19, 2020 7:57 pm

Is there a larger breakdown for redudancy numbers in other departments?
Cabin crew numbers are quoted excluding IBMs.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:30 pm

In relation to this, whilst there is an understanding that BA and other airlines have a requirement to downsize, there is an increasing feeling that BA’s plans go too far, is an abuse of the furlough scheme, and politicians are demanding that government remove and reallocate LHR slots from BA as “punishment”.

To recap, BA propose to dismiss its entire workforce and rehire 12,000 less workers - all on reduced pay and other terms and conditions. The decision do dismiss all employees comes after BA has made use of the governments job retention furlough scheme for several months. There is also a feeling that BA’s shareholders benefit in the good times (much of which is based on the privileged position inherited from BA’s state origins) and they should share more of the pain in the present bad times when everyone is being asked to come together.

There was an emergency debate on this today, and BA’s actions, described as predatory, are coming under increasing scrutiny from the U.K. parliament and it increases the possibility of a major government intervention in the sector.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... e-job-cuts
 
APYu
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:51 pm

Are politicians demanding that though? Or mainly just unions?
Not sure how uk government could legally do that, but it’s quite right BAs actions are being discussed in parliament
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
theginge
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:23 pm

I don't understand how MPs can ask that the CAA takes away slots from BA, for every slot that goes that means BA needs fewer employees.
 
BA777FO
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:50 pm

theginge wrote:
I don't understand how MPs can ask that the CAA takes away slots from BA, for every slot that goes that means BA needs fewer employees.


Generally when politicians get involved they do end up making things worse!

Have to correct one point; BA is not making all 42,000 employees redundant to then rehire 12,000 fewer. Not everyone is being made redundant, it's just not true. But it helps Unite's narrative.

Unite need to engage with the airline instead of having the government make their situation worse and putting off the travelling public who they'll need to spend their money to save their jobs!
 
gunnerman
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:52 pm

BA vehemently denies the claim that it plans to fire almost the whole of its workforce.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52897418
 
concordeforever
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:20 pm

gunnerman wrote:
BA vehemently denies the claim that it plans to fire almost the whole of its workforce.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52897418


Yet this quote from the linked BBC article says otherwise....

"We are hoping to reach agreement with you about these proposals, but if that is not possible (and we were unable to implement these proposals by relying on the reasonable changes clause in an employee's contract), we are proposing to give employees notice of termination and offer them new terms and conditions of employment".
 
BealineV953
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:59 pm

JumboMaiden wrote:
Is there a larger breakdown for redudancy numbers in other departments?
Cabin crew numbers are quoted excluding IBMs.


The Commercial team have been told that their headcount will be reduced by 33%.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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Aesma
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Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:12 pm

concordeforever wrote:
It sounds to me as though some posters on here that clearly work for BA seem to think that what the airline is proposing is okay to "ensure it's survival". You have long service and are probably near the end of your careers anyway. We are not all in the same situation. So, announcing 12000 redundancies whilst taking advantage of the government job retention scheme, then saying basically everyone will be sacked and if you are lucky we will re-employ you on zero hours contracts, and the lowest possible salary, and you better like it or lump it, is a great way to treat all your staff.
The same staff that have helped you make record profits consistently over the past few years, including £1.9 Billion after tax profit for 2019. Yes, the industry is in trouble, and cuts will need to be made, but the way it's being done trying to force in all these changes using the virus as an excuse is way over the top. BA not asking for aid and waiting for Virgin to fail so they can later on become the sole UK flag carrier doesn't wash with the majority of us who still have mortgages to pay and family to support. What's the betting if Virgin do go under BA will say we tried everything and now need aid? The Government needs to step in now and say what it is going to do before it's too late.

Good luck to all my colleagues and hope that some of us pull through this.


I don't know who you voted for at the last election (and don't want to know) but the situation you're describing seems like exactly what BoJo and his pals want for everybody in the UK, so I don't see why they would intervene.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Johnwaynebobbet
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:42 pm

Now the Nigel's have been told they aren't immune to the cuts either.

https://twitter.com/ITVJoel/status/1269 ... 42496?s=20
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:19 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52954738 7th June

BALPA, the only union to talk with BA, say that the dismissal threat underminds all the talks that they have been having.
Dismissal and rehire on worse terms seems like the way BA are going. :(
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:24 pm

I can't imagine it will be pleasant onboard for a long time, as rehired and severely disgruntled employees will probably take their anger out on pax.
 
JumboMaiden
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:29 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I can't imagine it will be pleasant onboard for a long time, as rehired and severely disgruntled employees will probably take their anger out on pax.


I doubt many crew have that sentiment. I also hope those who make it through the culling won't sign a contract with the intention going back
and causing some kind of revolt or industrial action - in any case I am pretty sure new contracts will have all kinds of kick-you-out clauses.
In the past we have had all kinds of strife but I have never seen a deliberate action on board by a colleague towards a customer that was out of
protest to the (really putrid) relationship between management and crew.

There is another "update" today from Amy James (head of IFCE) with more information - just waiting to see how different it is to the crewmours.

If there is potentially money available to sauce up the pilots VR, it wouldn't surprise me if on/after June 15th there is suddenly a kitty available
for CSDs and other key WW/EF workers.
 
airhansa
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:34 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I can't imagine it will be pleasant onboard for a long time, as rehired and severely disgruntled employees will probably take their anger out on pax.


Never had anything but smiles from Asian airlines despite traveling through some economically hard times including recently during the Coronavirus.
 
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Aesma
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:25 am

Well unless the UK bans industrial action (which with Brexit and Bojo at the helm, it might do), whatever is in the contract can always be negociated again when times are better.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Dieuwer
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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:16 pm

airhansa wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I can't imagine it will be pleasant onboard for a long time, as rehired and severely disgruntled employees will probably take their anger out on pax.


Never had anything but smiles from Asian airlines ...


This thread is about BA.
 
BAWLGW
Posts: 59
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:46 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I can't imagine it will be pleasant onboard for a long time, as rehired and severely disgruntled employees will probably take their anger out on pax.


Hi Dieuwer,

BA employee here. I can assure you we have been dealing with this type of behaviour from our company for many years. Whilst we feel absolutely shafted and stabbed in the back by our employers, we absolutely love our customers, and would never treat our customers with the same disdain that the company treats us with.

Many thanks.

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