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Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:11 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well unless the UK bans industrial action (which with Brexit and Bojo at the helm, it might do), whatever is in the contract can always be negociated again when times are better.


Given the proposed cuts (if true what's publicly abailable) this will be cold comfort to many. Giving up big double digit chucks of pay to "negotiate" low single digit pay increases in painful negotiations every so often is not going to do the trick.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:13 am

The aim is basically to get Worldwide and Euro FAs to retire if they have the years, and to replace them with Mixed Fleet on more routes. As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?
 
charliecossie
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:03 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The aim is basically to get Worldwide and Euro FAs to retire if they have the years, and to replace them with Mixed Fleet on more routes. As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?


No, the aim is to sack all the staff (on mininum, legal redundancy terms) and then rehire 75% of them on much worse terms and conditions.
 
BealineV953
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?


Hello.
I don't mean to be unfriendly, honest, but this thread is about BA people and headcount. It would be good to stay on topic.
Your question about the future of BA's A380s is a good one. Elsewhere there is a thread about BA aircraft being stored (BA fleet parking at 40+ including 747s, A380s). Your question might be best asked there.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:53 pm

[/quote]

No, the aim is to sack all the staff (on mininum, legal redundancy terms) and then rehire 75% of them on much worse terms and conditions.[/quote]

I guess they're hoping enough WW and higher-end EF crew won't agree to stay on.
It depends on that what % of those who are allowed to stay on get worse terms.
There are around 5000 WW crew - all grades
1900 (i've heard said, but between 1600-1900) EF many of whom are high end earners. There may still be CSDs on EF
I can't remember.
6000 Mixed fleet for whom there is no real change to income and most of the proposed scheduling/roster changes.
There is mention of some kind of stand down period in low seasons which could (say) see 6 weeks(?) of income disruption but there
isn't any real information on that.

Amy James did say in her video that firing and rehiring was not to be ruled out.
 
Tristarsteve
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Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:09 pm

Very sad to hear of the trials of current BA staff.
I worked for BA in Europe for 29 years, and was made redundant 3 years ago, along with nearly all the locally employed engineers. Luckily I was about a year from retirement, so I retired earlier than expected. But even then the shock and uncertainty was hard for months, and I had a pension to go to.
Good luck to those still there.
Steve
 
tonystan
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:13 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The aim is basically to get Worldwide and Euro FAs to retire if they have the years, and to replace them with Mixed Fleet on more routes. As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?


I’ll never understand this obsession with Worldwide and Eurofleet crew that the public have. This assumption they are all earning mega bucks and only have to work for one hour a year! All complete jiggery pokery by the uninformed bregudgers.

What’s worse is under this current crises all debates by Joe Public seem to fall back to the “but those old crew, they earn too much so get rid of them” which is simply not true, completely missing the point, unfair and discrimination. This crises is threatening EVERYONE, pilots, ground staff, middle management, loaders, engineers, LGW crew, MF crew and all for the simple saving of a little bit of staff costs for IAG.

It’s corporate bullying and nothing more. And this airline is merely the thin edge of the wedge, you can be assured that if they get away with it, so many more great British companies will fall in line with this management opportunism and you will all eventually be drastically impacted.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:52 pm

tonystan wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The aim is basically to get Worldwide and Euro FAs to retire if they have the years, and to replace them with Mixed Fleet on more routes. As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?


I’ll never understand this obsession with Worldwide and Eurofleet crew that the public have. This assumption they are all earning mega bucks and only have to work for one hour a year! All complete jiggery pokery by the uninformed bregudgers.

What’s worse is under this current crises all debates by Joe Public seem to fall back to the “but those old crew, they earn too much so get rid of them” which is simply not true, completely missing the point, unfair and discrimination. This crises is threatening EVERYONE, pilots, ground staff, middle management, loaders, engineers, LGW crew, MF crew and all for the simple saving of a little bit of staff costs for IAG.

It’s corporate bullying and nothing more. And this airline is merely the thin edge of the wedge, you can be assured that if they get away with it, so many more great British companies will fall in line with this management opportunism and you will all eventually be drastically impacted.


Part of it can be referenced here from One Mile at a Time: https://onemileatatime.com/british-airways-mixed-fleet/

More about that, and how Mixed Fleet directly relates to the subject of the article: https://onemileatatime.com/british-airw ... contracts/

The thinking is that Worldwide and Euro Fleet cabin crews will be most affected. (No BA flight attendant has been hired under either Worldwide or Euro since 2010.) The problem is: how much will this affect the on-board product, with much higher turnover in Mixed Fleet?
 
tonystan
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Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:00 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
tonystan wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The aim is basically to get Worldwide and Euro FAs to retire if they have the years, and to replace them with Mixed Fleet on more routes. As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?


I’ll never understand this obsession with Worldwide and Eurofleet crew that the public have. This assumption they are all earning mega bucks and only have to work for one hour a year! All complete jiggery pokery by the uninformed bregudgers.

What’s worse is under this current crises all debates by Joe Public seem to fall back to the “but those old crew, they earn too much so get rid of them” which is simply not true, completely missing the point, unfair and discrimination. This crises is threatening EVERYONE, pilots, ground staff, middle management, loaders, engineers, LGW crew, MF crew and all for the simple saving of a little bit of staff costs for IAG.

It’s corporate bullying and nothing more. And this airline is merely the thin edge of the wedge, you can be assured that if they get away with it, so many more great British companies will fall in line with this management opportunism and you will all eventually be drastically impacted.


Part of it can be referenced here from One Mile at a Time: https://onemileatatime.com/british-airways-mixed-fleet/

More about that, and how Mixed Fleet directly relates to the subject of the article: https://onemileatatime.com/british-airw ... contracts/

The thinking is that Worldwide and Euro Fleet cabin crews will be most affected. (No BA flight attendant has been hired under either Worldwide or Euro since 2010.) The problem is: how much will this affect the on-board product, with much higher turnover in Mixed Fleet?


At the time One Mile At A Time had written those articles little else was really known of the other departments. And again, they do seem to focus too heavily on the legacy fleets as do most subjects with BA. But now that the situation has been discussed so extensively in parliament, in the media and well we have all seen what they are even doing to the pilots, the narrative really needs to focus on ALL BA employees and the real motives behind managements actions which is nothing to do with protecting the brand and the people that make a great company.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
TUGMASTER
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:09 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Very sad to hear of the trials of current BA staff.
I worked for BA in Europe for 29 years, and was made redundant 3 years ago, along with nearly all the locally employed engineers. Luckily I was about a year from retirement, so I retired earlier than expected. But even then the shock and uncertainty was hard for months, and I had a pension to go to.
Good luck to those still there.
Steve



Thanks.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:07 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53010085

BA are selling their art collection to raise cash, would this have been from the pension fund pot?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
TUGMASTER
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:23 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53010085

BA are selling their art collection to raise cash, would this have been from the pension fund pot?


A bit of a smokescreen me thinks....
 
gunnerman
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:26 pm

I am absolutely certain that British Airways Pension Trustees Limited will not sell assets of its two pension schemes to bail out BA.
 
concordeforever
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:29 pm

BA Cargo, Iberia Cargo, and Aer Lingus Cargo were all merged to form IAG Cargo a number of years ago. I work for BA Cargo on a BA contract but with all branding, management, sales, etc made at IAG level. Up until now the 12000 figure didn't include us, and we'd had a message from the Cargo CEO which basically said we were IAG Cargo and would be dealt with accordingly. All of a sudden we are now classed as BA again and have been told that across the whole Heathrow cargo complex we are losing 369 jobs. Add this to the 125 extra pilots, and you now have nearly 12,500 people facing redundancy from British Airways in a couple of weeks time.
 
flyjay123
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:30 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53010085

BA are selling their art collection to raise cash


Why would an airline amass so much art? Tax avoidence?

The collection of around 150 pieces, amassed over 17 years, that 'rotates around BA offices', according to the article.
One piece could be worth ''at least seven figures''
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 39
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:48 pm

Here's the VR for WW and EF !
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:18 pm

concordeforever wrote:
BA Cargo, Iberia Cargo, and Aer Lingus Cargo were all merged to form IAG Cargo a number of years ago. I work for BA Cargo on a BA contract but with all branding, management, sales, etc made at IAG level. Up until now the 12000 figure didn't include us, and we'd had a message from the Cargo CEO which basically said we were IAG Cargo and would be dealt with accordingly. All of a sudden we are now classed as BA again and have been told that across the whole Heathrow cargo complex we are losing 369 jobs. Add this to the 125 extra pilots, and you now have nearly 12,500 people facing redundancy from British Airways in a couple of weeks time.


Sorry to hear that... but,
Now you know what your dealing with.
The BA board have NO morals, Walsh is pulling Cruz’s strings, even tho’ he’s done a disappearing act.
 
SueD
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:40 pm

flyjay123 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53010085

BA are selling their art collection to raise cash


Why would an airline amass so much art? Tax avoidence?

The collection of around 150 pieces, amassed over 17 years, that 'rotates around BA offices', according to the article.
One piece could be worth ''at least seven figures''


Many indeed most large corporations and associated pension funds are extensive patrons of the arts, and it’s nothing particularly unusual for IAG in this regard.

Many including British Airways have been sponsors and supporters of Museums and Art Galleries for decades and philanthropic donations are not unknown.
 
gunnerman
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:47 pm

concordeforever wrote:
BA Cargo, Iberia Cargo, and Aer Lingus Cargo were all merged to form IAG Cargo a number of years ago. I work for BA Cargo on a BA contract but with all branding, management, sales, etc made at IAG level. Up until now the 12000 figure didn't include us, and we'd had a message from the Cargo CEO which basically said we were IAG Cargo and would be dealt with accordingly. All of a sudden we are now classed as BA again and have been told that across the whole Heathrow cargo complex we are losing 369 jobs. Add this to the 125 extra pilots, and you now have nearly 12,500 people facing redundancy from British Airways in a couple of weeks time.

My understanding is that those who do work for IAG (and IAG Cargo) are employed in one of two ways:

1. They are on IAG or IAG Cargo contracts, typically managers who transferred from Opcos such as BA over the past several years.
2. They remain employees of the Opcos with a reporting line up to IAG or IAG Cargo management. They therefore retain significant benefits such as their pension schemes and the years of service with their Opcos will be good when redundancy calculations are made.

I'm sorry to hear of more job losses but these would have happened even if you were an IAG Cargo employee, in fact it's actually easier for IAG and IAG Cargo to dismiss their employees as managers are on different contracts. I suspect that it is more beneficial now to be a BA rather than an IAG or IAG Cargo employee.
 
concordeforever
Posts: 123
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:13 pm

gunnerman wrote:
concordeforever wrote:
BA Cargo, Iberia Cargo, and Aer Lingus Cargo were all merged to form IAG Cargo a number of years ago. I work for BA Cargo on a BA contract but with all branding, management, sales, etc made at IAG level. Up until now the 12000 figure didn't include us, and we'd had a message from the Cargo CEO which basically said we were IAG Cargo and would be dealt with accordingly. All of a sudden we are now classed as BA again and have been told that across the whole Heathrow cargo complex we are losing 369 jobs. Add this to the 125 extra pilots, and you now have nearly 12,500 people facing redundancy from British Airways in a couple of weeks time.

My understanding is that those who do work for IAG (and IAG Cargo) are employed in one of two ways:

1. They are on IAG or IAG Cargo contracts, typically managers who transferred from Opcos such as BA over the past several years.
2. They remain employees of the Opcos with a reporting line up to IAG or IAG Cargo management. They therefore retain significant benefits such as their pension schemes and the years of service with their Opcos will be good when redundancy calculations are made.

I'm sorry to hear of more job losses but these would have happened even if you were an IAG Cargo employee, in fact it's actually easier for IAG and IAG Cargo to dismiss their employees as managers are on different contracts. I suspect that it is more beneficial now to be a BA rather than an IAG or IAG Cargo employee.


Well, we expected job losses obviously, but seeing as nearly the all the flights that BA have been flying for the last 3 months have been cargo only, we have been the only part of the airline bringing in any revenue. As the demand for cargo space rocketed due to the lack of passenger flights, and therefore belly hold space, so did the charge for flying that cargo. We have been flying food, mail and pharmaceuticals throughout the crises as normal.
And of course we have the millions of pieces of PPE from China on three daily 777-300 flights, 2 from Shanghai, and 1 from Beijing. These were initially flying with boxes of PPE on all the seats and in the overhead bins, about 250 boxes + around another 100 in the bulk hold 5 of the aircraft, as well as 14 PMCs in the cargo holds .
The Beijing flight now uses the two 777-200 aircraft that have had all the seats removed, other than first class, G-YMMG and K. All the boxes are being stacked on the empty floors and tied down with cargo nets, the overhead bins are still being filled, and there are even boxes being placed in the galleys where the food carts would normally be. Todays flight had 1117 boxes in the passenger cabin!
These flights are set to continue until at least the end of July.

So, we have all this extra work, which is helping support the NHS and care homes around the UK fighting the pandemic, and BA management just use it as an opportunity to do what they like.25% headcount reduction just feels like such a kick in the teeth. It doesn't feel beneficial to me to be on a BA contract....
 
Opus99
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:55 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... for-pilots

apparently they are thinking of extending to other workers too
 
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par13del
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:19 pm

concordeforever wrote:
Well, we expected job losses obviously, but seeing as nearly the all the flights that BA have been flying for the last 3 months have been cargo only, we have been the only part of the airline bringing in any revenue. As the demand for cargo space rocketed due to the lack of passenger flights, and therefore belly hold space, so did the charge for flying that cargo. We have been flying food, mail and pharmaceuticals throughout the crises as normal.
.

The cynic in me says that now that the darling - pax filghts - are getting ready to resume, the step children - cargo ops - have got to make way.
Regardless of being the only unit who was generating revenue during the height of the crisis, still a step child, most cargo ops were being slimmed down prior due to the massive
belly space on the newer a/c. Tough, but..........
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:25 pm

flyjay123 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53010085

BA are selling their art collection to raise cash


Why would an airline amass so much art? Tax avoidence?

The collection of around 150 pieces, amassed over 17 years, that 'rotates around BA offices', according to the article.
One piece could be worth ''at least seven figures''


A good part of the art was put on display in BA's lounges when they created the "Galleries" concept. They invested in young British artists and the pieces got on occasion rotated around the estate. Nothing more sinister than that.
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:18 pm

How much is this supposed to raise?
Currently £20m is being spent each day.
It seems futile unless, like I said already, there is enough to make a significant
number of VR positions available for cabin crew - or is this the "mulling" for tech crew
VR the papers are writing about?

Ugh. What a mess this is.
 
concordeforever
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:40 pm

A 7-page letter to the Unite Union from BA management of Cargo at Heathrow has stated that there will be no enhanced voluntary redundancy programme due to it being prohibitively expensive, and that they will meet minimum statutory obligations only along with any contractual notice pay.
 
Nightmareliner
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:30 am

They have now agreed to a voluntary redundancy offer for select departments (including pilots & Worldwide & Eurofleet crew). That proposal has been sent to the union - but it explicitly states that it does not include Mixed Fleet.
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:40 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
tonystan wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The aim is basically to get Worldwide and Euro FAs to retire if they have the years, and to replace them with Mixed Fleet on more routes. As for the A380, of which BA has 12...do they factor into the future of BA?


I’ll never understand this obsession with Worldwide and Eurofleet crew that the public have. This assumption they are all earning mega bucks and only have to work for one hour a year! All complete jiggery pokery by the uninformed bregudgers.

What’s worse is under this current crises all debates by Joe Public seem to fall back to the “but those old crew, they earn too much so get rid of them” which is simply not true, completely missing the point, unfair and discrimination. This crises is threatening EVERYONE, pilots, ground staff, middle management, loaders, engineers, LGW crew, MF crew and all for the simple saving of a little bit of staff costs for IAG.

It’s corporate bullying and nothing more. And this airline is merely the thin edge of the wedge, you can be assured that if they get away with it, so many more great British companies will fall in line with this management opportunism and you will all eventually be drastically impacted.


Part of it can be referenced here from One Mile at a Time: https://onemileatatime.com/british-airways-mixed-fleet/

More about that, and how Mixed Fleet directly relates to the subject of the article: https://onemileatatime.com/british-airw ... contracts/

The thinking is that Worldwide and Euro Fleet cabin crews will be most affected. (No BA flight attendant has been hired under either Worldwide or Euro since 2010.) The problem is: how much will this affect the on-board product, with much higher turnover in Mixed Fleet?


Slight bit of info - when BMI merged with BA in 2012, those crew were given the option of joining Eurofleet or take £10,000 and go to Mixed Fleet.

--
I'm Mixed Fleet crew so it may be biased of me. But I don't see the turnover changing dramatically on this new contract as the pay doesn't change a lot. (If BA are to be believed). 2 years is the average turnover for Mixed Fleet. That also is roughly the break even point for the cost of recruiting, training etc.

I doubt the crew performance will change significantly onboard, based on turnover as that won't change that much. However there's going to be animosity in the aftermath, between crew who are in favour of Unites stance and those that are against. How that will affect the experience onboard, remains to be seen.

(Edited to correct typo).
 
Mboyle1988
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:38 am

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:02 am

Trk1 wrote:
Will not to be correcting in a year. No vaccine and flyers will be few and far between


Seriously this viewpoint is being disproven day by day with better than expected economic and travel news.
 
peterinlisbon
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Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:20 am

What seems strange to me is that they kept all of these people employed whilst all of their flights were cancelled, but now that flights are coming back they start firing people. Surely there would be a better way - a 6 month 50% reduction in working hours or something like that.
 
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IrishTexan
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:28 am

Not directly related, but things have been interesting this week over at IAG partner EI. Continuing reduced business had threatened imminent layoffs and further pay cuts.
On Tuesday, June 9, media posted details of company proposals for pay cuts and work practice reforms. Tough company position with changes to "last in perpetuity and are irrevocable". If conditions worsen and pay is maintained at 50%, then some of that 50% pay will be regarded as overpayment to be recovered in the future.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0 ... er-lingus/
Friday, June 12, brought agreement between unions and management on this agreement which will maintain jobs, but the news report ends with the warning comment "Should the situation materially deteriorate (e.g. a second wave or extended quarantine) then it may be necessary to re-visit these measures."
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/06 ... very-plan/
Moderately long articles but worth a read. I found some of the content chilling as EI also seem to have taken a tough stance.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:07 am

Mboyle1988 wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
Will not to be correcting in a year. No vaccine and flyers will be few and far between


Seriously this viewpoint is being disproven day by day with better than expected economic and travel news.


Seriously? We haven't even started to see the economic fallout from this. A quarter of the UK workforce is on furlough. What do you think will happen when this scheme starts to draw on employers' finances from August? We all go back to work?

Anyone that thinks a small uptick in passenger numbers indicate we will go back to pre Covid-19 quickly needs to do a bit more reading the news. I can see US domestic travel recover to an extend. But make no mistake, this recession is just getting underway...
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:11 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
What seems strange to me is that they kept all of these people employed whilst all of their flights were cancelled, but now that flights are coming back they start firing people. Surely there would be a better way - a 6 month 50% reduction in working hours or something like that.


They took their time to figure out how serious this is...just like anyone else that does not have access to a crystal ball. If traffic is not expected to rebound for years, what is six months going to do? This is a terrible situation but if companies don't right size now, they will start any recovery on the back foot. We all have been protected temporarily by government support but at some stage, reality will start to bite.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:47 pm

https://www.cityam.com/heathrow-boss-co ... d-of-jobs/

Heathrow airport could see 25,000 job losses if the government’s quarantine rules are not relaxed, or air bridges not established, within the next two weeks.Clearly air travel is not going to rebound from the virus in six months.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
Nightmareliner
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Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:30 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
What seems strange to me is that they kept all of these people employed whilst all of their flights were cancelled, but now that flights are coming back they start firing people. Surely there would be a better way - a 6 month 50% reduction in working hours or something like that.


That's because of the furlough scheme. BA had originally issued the HR1 back in March, as the plan was to do this then. Afterwards, the UK gov started the furlough scheme & the Unions then fought BA to use it. Originally BA were not going to.

BA claim the issues outlast the life of the furlough scheme (which is true), but this also is about pushing out every expensive contract before Willie Walsh retires in September. Why let Luis Gallego get credit on day 1 for something Walsh has tried to do for 15 years?

By doing 50% reductions etc that wouldn't get rid of those expensive contracts. This isn't about the survival of BA/IAG. It's about pushing profits up in the long term. (Although I'm not saying reductions aren't needed for the short / mid term).

They used this "it's for our survival" card in 2008 - but when the airline stopped losing cash, nobody ever say anything from its success. £1.9 billion profit and not even a bonus, just a free ticket (that you still must pay taxes on) that 12,000 people won't even be able to use.

Besides as much as IAG protest otherwise, Walsh is running the show. Has anyone even seen or heard from Alex Cruz? He's not said anything to the media, done any interviews etc. It's all been Walsh.
 
concordeforever
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:07 pm

Nightmareliner wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
What seems strange to me is that they kept all of these people employed whilst all of their flights were cancelled, but now that flights are coming back they start firing people. Surely there would be a better way - a 6 month 50% reduction in working hours or something like that.


That's because of the furlough scheme. BA had originally issued the HR1 back in March, as the plan was to do this then. Afterwards, the UK gov started the furlough scheme & the Unions then fought BA to use it. Originally BA were not going to.

BA claim the issues outlast the life of the furlough scheme (which is true), but this also is about pushing out every expensive contract before Willie Walsh retires in September. Why let Luis Gallego get credit on day 1 for something Walsh has tried to do for 15 years?

By doing 50% reductions etc that wouldn't get rid of those expensive contracts. This isn't about the survival of BA/IAG. It's about pushing profits up in the long term. (Although I'm not saying reductions aren't needed for the short / mid term).

They used this "it's for our survival" card in 2008 - but when the airline stopped losing cash, nobody ever say anything from its success. £1.9 billion profit and not even a bonus, just a free ticket (that you still must pay taxes on) that 12,000 people won't even be able to use.

Besides as much as IAG protest otherwise, Walsh is running the show. Has anyone even seen or heard from Alex Cruz? He's not said anything to the media, done any interviews etc. It's all been Walsh.


And this is the main point now. BA are not "fighting for survival". It's all about securing the best return for the shareholders in the future. Would these two IAG directors really have spent 1.6 million Euros on shares in March if they thought the company wasn't going to survive. Throwing all the staff on the scrapheap helps the fat cats stay fat.

https://www.ft.com/content/740f8e18-d1b ... a529d2200d
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:34 pm

concordeforever wrote:

And this is the main point now. BA are not "fighting for survival". It's all about securing the best return for the shareholders in the future. Would these two IAG directors really have spent 1.6 million Euros on shares in March if they thought the company wasn't going to survive. Throwing all the staff on the scrapheap helps the fat cats stay fat.

https://www.ft.com/content/740f8e18-d1b ... a529d2200d



I see this point and fully agree. IAG is all about return & revenue. It's all about money. It's not an airline group, it's just a "bank with wings". To some extent they just don't behave as the rest of the airline groups; In general, the aviation days when airlines flew to places just for prestige and history came to an end. IAG does the same, but take every single decision to the next level analyzing what's truly necessary and what isn't, what adds to the potential revenue, and what doesn't. Many of us criticize IAG's decisions regarding their product (having to pay in Economy at BA was a bit of an issue), undoubtedly at many areas not exactly nice and cool for the general customer, but again, it's all about maximizing revenue over investment.

For obvious reasons, when the cost cuts are about workforce this isn't nice. Part of the issue here is the potential cost cuts which many departments could see, but part of the issue is of course making things "simpler" and more attractive for the potential investors. Having an airline where you have four different type of contracts when it comes just to one collective (i.e crews), isn't exactly easy and "attractive" for the investors, and that's the only reason BA is seeing here the majority of the workforce adjustments.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:47 pm

gunnerman wrote:
I am absolutely certain that British Airways Pension Trustees Limited will not sell assets of its two pension schemes to bail out BA.

But will they need to liquidate assets to pay out employees made redundant en masse who opt to take lump sum payments?
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:56 pm

no way would i support this carrier ever. I feel horrible for those of you who have to work under this plutocratic group of oligarchs. They never should have been allowed to ensnare EI and IB in their consortium, thus submitting those groups to the same Elite first scheme.

I hope BA fails, and the govt takes over the employee groups, kicks out all of the management, jails the executives and creates a new , competitive carrier along side VS for a healthy top end market to/from the UK. Spin EI back to Ireland where it belongs and would be cherished properly.

This is ofcourse a dream as the entire planet suffers from the same wealth disease
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:06 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
no way would i support this carrier ever. I feel horrible for those of you who have to work under this plutocratic group of oligarchs. They never should have been allowed to ensnare EI and IB in their consortium, thus submitting those groups to the same Elite first scheme.

I hope BA fails, and the govt takes over the employee groups, kicks out all of the management, jails the executives and creates a new , competitive carrier along side VS for a healthy top end market to/from the UK. Spin EI back to Ireland where it belongs and would be cherished properly.

This is ofcourse a dream as the entire planet suffers from the same wealth disease


If EI was still separate from BA, then it'd be easy to solve the problem of having no "competition" after VZ collapses. The EI could expand into operating internal flights within Great Britain (and BA doing the same in Ireland), and EI could comfortably produce a product that competes on transatlantic flights as well.

I've recently felt that IB should use this opportunity to expand into Latin America, which can in turn be a gateway into establishing operations for the United States and North America. Flights between Europe and the Caribbean would prove popular, with Miami and LAX becoming the NA hubs for the airline.

I wholeheartedly agree that VZ (as a brand) should be allowed to collapse and BA is a horrible airline to fly on, though BA seems to be one of those companies that I can't see failing as a policy of government intervention.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1134
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:03 am

smartplane wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
I am absolutely certain that British Airways Pension Trustees Limited will not sell assets of its two pension schemes to bail out BA.

But will they need to liquidate assets to pay out employees made redundant en masse who opt to take lump sum payments?

The New Airways Pension Scheme has been in deficit for many years and BA has paid a lot into it to keep the deficit under some sort of control. What the pension scheme did some years ago, but I don't know if it does so now, was to give a cash-equivalent transfer value (CETV) of 28 times the annual pension, an amount so generous that any sane employee, with the aid of a financial adviser, would be mad not to consider it. The reason for this generous multiple was to get the pensioners off the scheme's books and not be a future liability for decades, and the funds would already be there to pay out if the employee chose this option.
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:13 am

airhansa wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
I've recently felt that IB should use this opportunity to expand into Latin America, which can in turn be a gateway into establishing operations for the United States and North America. Flights between Europe and the Caribbean would prove popular, with Miami and LAX becoming the NA hubs for the airline.


That's the exact reason IAG is acquiring Air Europa - so that they can gain a dominance on the Europe - Latin America market.

Willie Walsh has publicly stated Iberia is managing this merger, in the same way as BA managed the merger of BA & BMI in 2012.

Although it should be noted that Unite the Union have referred this to the European Competition Commission for being anti competitive.
https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... ommission/
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4785
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:37 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
no way would i support this carrier ever. I feel horrible for those of you who have to work under this plutocratic group of oligarchs. They never should have been allowed to ensnare EI and IB in their consortium, thus submitting those groups to the same Elite first scheme.

I hope BA fails, and the govt takes over the employee groups, kicks out all of the management, jails the executives and creates a new , competitive carrier along side VS for a healthy top end market to/from the UK. Spin EI back to Ireland where it belongs and would be cherished properly.

This is ofcourse a dream as the entire planet suffers from the same wealth disease

None of this is illegal. We don’t jail people unless they break the law. IAG exists as a business to provide a return for shareholders, that’s it’s raison d’etre. Remember Iberia was “right sized” a while back when IAG created Iberia Express and said unless the employees accepted a cut in salary towards market rate, any future Iberia growth would be at I2 and not mainline. Iberia have had the pain. Now it’s time for BA’s last piece of the transformation puzzle, the removal of high cost legacy cabin crew and a reduction of pilots wages. IAG are doing EXACTLY what they need to for maximising shareholder value.
THAT IS LITERALLY THEIR REASON FOR EXISTENCE.
And of course it’s awful and unfair, but in a market where we all wanna fly for next to nothing, supply and demand means they can do it.
It’s not illegal, but it’s a personal tragedy and there are better ways of doing it than Wille Walsh and his Accenture Mini-Me Alex Cruz have done, WW is getting his own back on a few old scores. The strategy is actually a good one, their PR is awful and they are now trashing a valuable brand. Once this is done, the next CEO will be on a rebuild of both brand and staff relations, like Rod Eddington after Ayling Airways.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:15 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
no way would i support this carrier ever. I feel horrible for those of you who have to work under this plutocratic group of oligarchs. They never should have been allowed to ensnare EI and IB in their consortium, thus submitting those groups to the same Elite first scheme.

I hope BA fails, and the govt takes over the employee groups, kicks out all of the management, jails the executives and creates a new , competitive carrier along side VS for a healthy top end market to/from the UK. Spin EI back to Ireland where it belongs and would be cherished properly.

This is ofcourse a dream as the entire planet suffers from the same wealth disease


With all of this hatred it's worth considering that IAG's European rivals need tax payer funded bailouts to the tune of €9 billion each. How much money did the US3 get from their government to stay afloat? Whatever you may think about IAG, they are running a sound and self sustaining business that can withstand a crisis.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:27 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Now it’s time for BA’s last piece of the transformation puzzle, the removal of high cost legacy cabin crew and a reduction of pilots wages.


BA pilots are some of the cheapest in the world flying for a major international carrier. The LGW A320 skippers are typically paid less than Easyjet captains. Cadet pilot pay at BA is lower than EasyJet and and Virgin. It's only after 20 years that a BA longhaul captain overtakes a Virgin captain's pay and the BA pilot has been flying 900 hours a year all that time as opposed to 750 at Virgin. I'm paid about 40-50% less than a United 777 FO with the same length of service. In fact, I'm paid about the same as a United 737 FO with 3 years service and I'm a relatively higher paid longhaul FO compared with the 1000+ new entrants we've had in the past 4 years.

There really isn't a justification for taking on pilot pay when benchmarked against elsewhere. They'll try it on, but the loss of goodwill will cost them their savings several times over, no doubt.
 
Opus99
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:31 pm

BA777FO wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Now it’s time for BA’s last piece of the transformation puzzle, the removal of high cost legacy cabin crew and a reduction of pilots wages.


BA pilots are some of the cheapest in the world flying for a major international carrier. The LGW A320 skippers are typically paid less than Easyjet captains. Cadet pilot pay at BA is lower than EasyJet and and Virgin. It's only after 20 years that a BA longhaul captain overtakes a Virgin captain's pay and the BA pilot has been flying 900 hours a year all that time as opposed to 750 at Virgin. I'm paid about 40-50% less than a United 777 FO with the same length of service. In fact, I'm paid about the same as a United 737 FO with 3 years service and I'm a relatively higher paid longhaul FO compared with the 1000+ new entrants we've had in the past 4 years.

There really isn't a justification for taking on pilot pay when benchmarked against elsewhere. They'll try it on, but the loss of goodwill will cost them their savings several times over, no doubt.

I think this is something that I find so crazy. How can you pay your pilots less than an LCC and even less than one of the smallest TATL competitors. Like wow. WW has to go because he has been the only constant in the past 15 years. It’s enough, I think with him out of the way maybe some sort of change can begin. Or what do you think?
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:39 pm

I have only one thing to say to the BA staff: There is life beyond airplanes.

I used to be fascinated by the industry and learned all I could learn about it, got a job with a legacy airline, until I realized that the industry is very toxic and it's all built on fake dreams. It's a permanent battle against time. You fight and fight and keep fighting.
Until a little virus comes along and then all that fighting proves to have been in vain as your company struggles to stay afloat.
Even the managers, who whipped and whipped to make you hussle, all of their whipping was in vain.

Now is a time for reflection.

It's cool to be able to say that you work for BA.
But it's also cool if not cooler to own your own business and be your own boss.
What is the meaning of your life as a commercial pilot if you waste it entirely on your teenage dream, which apparently was nothing more than sitting at the front of a metal tube full of farts and bad breath, wearing a cool uniform that allows you to look down on people who don't know how to operate the metal tube full of farts and bad breath, skirting traps set up by overrated or distracted design engineers, distracted drunk or unprofessional maintenance engineers, distracted ATC, foolish terrorists, uninformed soldiers at the command of SAM launchers, or the poor or clouded judgement of your fellow pilots or yourself.

Sign up for another job, try it out.
You might find something that gives you more satisfaction and to see aviation from a new, different perspective.

Because, do not be mistaken, most of the fools running the show at the top of these mambo jumbo airlines, can put up a fancy face and try to fool you with their words, but they don't know what they're doing.
If you airline is in trouble today, after less than 3 months of groundings, it might have been better off with you sitting in the CEO's chair.
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:04 pm

Unite have now issued a vote of no confidence for Alex Cruz, and also an email to check everyone's details are correct in preparation for a potential ballot for industrial action. This is the exact same email they issued prior to the strike ballot of 2019 and 2017.

Something's on the horizon, and this isn't going to end anytime soon.



As we are considering all options to respond to BA, we are updating our records to ensure we have prepared for an industrial action ballot. BA have clearly taken this action believing that industrial action would serve no purpose whilst their planes are grounded and our members furloughed. But as the sector begins to recover and BA starts to make profits again, we MUST be prepared to consider industrial action to protect jobs & terms & conditions.
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:48 pm

Nightmareliner wrote:
Unite have now issued a vote of no confidence for Alex Cruz, and also an email to check everyone's details are correct in preparation for a potential ballot for industrial action. This is the exact same email they issued prior to the strike ballot of 2019 and 2017.

Something's on the horizon, and this isn't going to end anytime soon.



As we are considering all options to respond to BA, we are updating our records to ensure we have prepared for an industrial action ballot. BA have clearly taken this action believing that industrial action would serve no purpose whilst their planes are grounded and our members furloughed. But as the sector begins to recover and BA starts to make profits again, we MUST be prepared to consider industrial action to protect jobs & terms & conditions.


Lordy. Strike from what? I haven't had my butt on a crew seat for almost 3 months!
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:36 am

JumboMaiden wrote:
Nightmareliner wrote:
Unite have now issued a vote of no confidence for Alex Cruz, and also an email to check everyone's details are correct in preparation for a potential ballot for industrial action. This is the exact same email they issued prior to the strike ballot of 2019 and 2017.

Something's on the horizon, and this isn't going to end anytime soon.



As we are considering all options to respond to BA, we are updating our records to ensure we have prepared for an industrial action ballot. BA have clearly taken this action believing that industrial action would serve no purpose whilst their planes are grounded and our members furloughed. But as the sector begins to recover and BA starts to make profits again, we MUST be prepared to consider industrial action to protect jobs & terms & conditions.


Lordy. Strike from what? I haven't had my butt on a crew seat for almost 3 months!


That's what I can't get my head around. Unlike the airplanes, the plans are all up in the air.
I get a sense that Unites' back is up against a wall here, with little other option. But I could be wrong.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:07 am

Nightmareliner wrote:
JumboMaiden wrote:
Nightmareliner wrote:
Unite have now issued a vote of no confidence for Alex Cruz, and also an email to check everyone's details are correct in preparation for a potential ballot for industrial action. This is the exact same email they issued prior to the strike ballot of 2019 and 2017.

Something's on the horizon, and this isn't going to end anytime soon.





Lordy. Strike from what? I haven't had my butt on a crew seat for almost 3 months!


That's what I can't get my head around. Unlike the airplanes, the plans are all up in the air.
I get a sense that Unites' back is up against a wall here, with little other option. But I could be wrong.


Unite are issuing a vote of no confidence? What does that even mean? Are they a key shareholder in IAG so they can vote to have him removed from the board? I am not sure anyone in IAG cares if cabin crew have confidence in Alex Cruz or not.
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